Having done all three: LC, IB dip, and HS dip myself, I can definitely say there is no comparison between them. The leaving cert is just an exam used to gain point used in an auction for college places. Whereas the IB diplomas is an education. The leaving cert does not prepare any student for life outside secondary school which is why there is such a scramble for degrees afterwards even if you don’t want to pursue an academic career. Material studied at IB and HS level is similar to that of third level standard, far beyond leaving cert Higher level material and used for analysis, reflection, study, research rather than just rote learning – which is also a huge part of the diploma system – just not the goal of it. Would definitely chose the IB diploma for any of my children, but I would chose the Leaving Cert exam for college entry, 6 months only needed to gain enough points to do any course you want; why wouldn’t you. Which is probably why the leaving cert has lasted this long.

And therefore Conor the university system is a similar test. By far the biggest problem we have in our education system is competency. Competency of the system, teachers, policy makers etc. Learning by Rote is a vital part of a child’s education and all skills are learned by repetition. It has fallen out of fashion because of a misinterpretation of psychological research, ironically demonstrating that teachers have poor critical thinking skills. How then are children going to be taught critical thinking if the teachers cannot do it themselves?

All agree that standards in education have slipped since the mid 1980s. What happened? Were teachers slow to adapt to new teaching methods without the use of violence?

Nowhere is teaching incompetence more manifest than in the area of languages. Children have brains that are ‘prewired’ to learn languages. Natural learning of languages is through hearing and speaking, mimicking and repetition. In other words learning by Rote is a natural form of learning. In contrast writing and reading languages is an artificial process that is not conducive to natural learning of languages. So why then does the system persist in trying to teach languages using the written word? The answer is because it saves time and thus the only objective of education is to pass an exam.

The system needs to change at university level first as it produces teachers that cannot teach, engineers that cannot engineer, doctors that cannot take a pulse ad inf. As a system of education, the university sector is a highly dysfunctional. It is a kleptocracy where education is secondary to the acquisition of fat cat salaries for as little effort as possible.

When I did math back in early 90s it wasn’t.nnDid Actuary in college and that was.nnI don’t know about IB, would go no where near the American, why look at guys behind us in ranking. Why not ones ahead of us like Finland.nnI will say one thing I learnt with continuous assessment. I am minor dyslexic and was subject to sever discrimination in the education process in my time. I preferred big exams due the less need memorising while continuous assessment involves testing information which has not fully embedded in your mind. Information which embeds in your mind and is then used to solve problems will be retained far more than something learnt for a continuous assessment exam.n

Yes Cowboy, as memory is a reconstructive process, gaps in knowledge are filled-in using assumptions thus, the greater the amount of information we have in our memory store the less need we have of assumptions. It does not matter how the information gets in as long as it gets in. That is the elephant in the room and not the final test of what actually got in.

Hi Charlie,

The world has changed since you were in secondary or tertiary education. As a student myself, I currently have access to the sum of mankind’s knowledge on my phone. I don’t need to memorise vast tracts of information any more. I’m able to look it up at a moment’s notice. It’s like carrying an encyclopaedia around with me.

Precisely because of this, my generation has had to develop different faculties to your own. We live in a digital society where we are constantly bombarded by all sorts of information about every aspect of our lives. Our challenge is to no longer function as the memory banks of a biological computer, but to be the processor, analysing data and deciding which is relevant and which is dross.

For these reasons, an exam which promotes rote learning is an antiquated addition to the academic arsenal of future generations of digital natives.

Kevin, things have changed indeed and for the worse. One can now carry in their pocket their brains and leave their headspace empty. One would not have been able to read this article or write it without a “memory bank” of written words that represent spoken words also stored in a memory bank. One has learned it by Rote whether one realises it or not.

As you are now at tertiary level your encyclopaedic phone will be taken off you at exam time. It appears that one has not yet acquired the analytical skill to realise that!

There is space still for a level of rote learning.

Charles – assumption CAN fill in gaps in knowledge but only when people are not able to use their critical thinking skills.

Tomy, critical thinking skills are based upon acquired knowledge, which is data stored relating to procedural information. The world cannot function without assumptions and all of us and the sciences are reliant on assumptions. Paradoxically it is an assumption to think that assumptions are not required if one has critical thinking abilities!

Hi Charlie,

Actually, all of my tests at 3rd level (I’m doing a masters) are open book or essay assignments. This means it’s more important for me to be able to evaluate and critically analyse sources of information than it is to learn them off by heart. Sorry if that ruins your argument a bit.

The world hasn’t changed for the worst, although I can understand how you might feel that way. It’s ok to feel threatened by technology which you can’t comprehend. It can be hard to adapt, but it’s still worth your trying. Personally, I see the changes as nothing short of marvellous. I live in a time where any information I want is at my finger tips. I can read about anything I want or see and hear anything I want. You name it, I can access it in seconds. It’s worth dropping the curmudgeonly attitude for a few seconds just to wonder in awe at the scale of that.

I hope that my children won’t have to rote learn information, but can get on with the more important work of understanding how the information can be put to good use. They’ll be smarter than me, more creative and quicker thinkers. I look forward to it.

All well and good untill there’s a power cut!

Charles

How many people have had their lives saved because a Doctor in the Emergency Department could remember Line 5 of Ccene 2 of Act 1 of Hamlet?
If I assumed none, would this assumption be correct?

Not really going to get into semantics – Knowledge is useful and Understanding more so. Assumptions are rarely useful, critical thinking serves much better given that a good critical thinker will try to take a holistic view on an idea/concept/situation.

Kevin, if you are doing a masters degree you would be aware that master’s degrees are completed at fourth level and not tertiary level. If you got through tertiary you did it without the use of a mobile encyclopaedia in your exams. Why did the authorities force you to learn ‘mankind’s knowledge’ without the brain in your pocket? ‘Cut and paste’ research is no substitute for real skill.

Your assumption is that this is a paper and pen forum is also worthy of ridicule.

Culm, it indeed looks like you have many assumptions at your disposal but what if the doctor could not understand English and gave you a lobotomy instead of a suppository!

Hi Tomy, if “assumptions are rarely useful” why do they underlie science?
http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/basic_assumptions

It depends which definition you use for “assumption”
You’re referring to scientific assumptions which are based on observation – or can be evidenced by observation.
I was referring to assumption in terms of taking something as given.

Regardless, knowledge alone (as used in Bloom’s Taxonomy) is very much lower order thinking and shouldn’t be the primary aim of education. (IMO)

Tomy, there is no difference between the assumptions that under lie science and any other kind of assumption.

Knowledge and skills are acquired in many ways and throughout many learning styles. Supporters of the ‘no rote leaning’ campaign have not taken the time to analyze how children acquire knowledge and skills. Thus it is obvious that these supporters have jumped on a bandwagon saving themselves from expending energy on critical thinking.

The definitions we are referring to are different.
You appear to be defining it as: “1 a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof”

I was operating on the following definition: “4 archaic arrogance or presumption.”

Oh, and anyone who thinks there is no place for rote learning is deluded. However, anyone who thinks that there is not an over-reliance on rote learning at the expense of developing the person and their ability to understand, apply, analyse or fill in the gaps with assumption, particularly without questioning these assumptions is similarly deluded.

Hi Charlie,

Firstly, examinations are not a justification for rote learning. Exams are a method of testing what you’ve learnt. They aren’t a goal in themselves. Once they assume the status of a goal then they’ve fallen foul of Goodhart’s Law. If we decided to teach our students to critically analyse over rote learning, then the exam would naturally change to reflect that. Therefore, examinations are an invalid reason why one should focus on rote learning.

I would agree with you that cutting and pasting information is counter productive. That’s why I’ve focused so much on the need to teach students to analyse the information and to ascertain its value for themselves. It’s also important that they be able to process and understand the myriad of concepts that they will come across in this digital world with its high speed flows of information.

I’ll also pretend that you didn’t nit pick on the distinction between tertiary and quaternary education as a way of retorting to my post without engaging with the points I’d made. :)

Tomy, what are we to take from your reliance on archaic definitions?

If you read what I said and not what you think I said then you would see I was alluding to the question why is it that the Leaving Cert. comes in for criticism when universities operate the exact same system? If a university student memorises and throws back a lecture in an exam they cannot be marked wrong and more than likely will get high grades. University and teacher training are faulty systems that are not conducive to production of quality teachers!

I disagree. I’m basing that on being a teacher.

Oh and as regards “archaic definitions” – the 2 quoted are both from the OED.
I decided not to assume the definition was as limited as you suggested, I used my critical thinking skills to determine the reliability of your statements.

My experience of the assessment modes used in LC and university is that they are wildly different.

Tomy, may I quote your directly – “I was operating on the following definition: “4 archaic arrogance or presumption.” –

You just stated that you were using an archaic definition. Misunderstanding a dictionary entry is one thing but it does not suggest the presence of critical thinking ability.

Kevin, I never once argued that there is no need to teach critical thinking skills. Access to ‘high speed flows of information’ is useless without being in possession of the knowledge and skills necessary to process the information. Similarly it is impossible to learn a language, mathematics or any other academic subject by analysis alone.

I wonder when exams became economic indicators!

If one is overtly ignorant of the system that they are supposedly learning through, it renders claims and appeals to authority as bogus.

To be honest Charles, by now, I have no idea what it is you’re trying to say and have little interest in discussing pedantic points on the meaning of a single word (which apparently have no other application except that defined by you).

As previously stated, knowledge is low on the ladder when it comes to educational goals.

Tomy, your ‘knowledge is low on the ladder’ comment suggests a complete misunderstanding of a continuum which Bloom’s taxonomy is. His taxonomy of the cognitive domain follows the thinking process. One cannot understand a concept if one does not first remember it, similarly one cannot apply knowledge and concepts if one does not understand them. It is clear you did not attempt that question on your PGDE exam.

Tomy, if you don’t understand the use of italics in dictionary definitions and you claim to be a teacher, you have become the exemplar of my point. (Thank God for pseudonyms!)

Making more incorrect assumptions there Chuck….. I won’t outline them, it’ll just open the door for you to further embarrass yourself.

Tomy, I looked up the Oxford English Dictionary and definition 4 of the word ‘assumption’ uses the term ‘archaic’ in italics which means that the definition following is no longer in use. However you think that ‘archaic’ is part of the meaning otherwise you are implying that your knowledge is archaic. No assumptions needed as the evidence is overtly available.

ok

Says Smiley regurgitating the idiom “you get what you pay for”. A heuristic promoted by sales people to relieve the unskilled of more money!

The IB is internationally recognised. Go abroad and ask people what the Leaving Cert is and they will stare blankly at you.

I will just mention the word ‘Abiturzeugnis’ to see your blank stare Smiley!

One word ‘Abiturzeugnis’ just to see your blank stare Smiley!

I love utilizing gargantuan idioms to fabricate intelligence.

I love utilizing gargantuan idioms to fabricate intelligence…….

irritable vowel symptoms

The L.C. is NOT a “teacher designed system.” The curriculum is not set by teachers and neither do the unions control it as you seem to think.
As regards so-called rote learning you need to be aware that memory use is a whole-brain activity as demonstrated on f.m.r.i. scans when subjects are performing apparently simple memorisation tasks.
I can also tell you that based on a long teaching career that there is a very high correlation between good memory skills and high intelligence, contrary to what is being implied here.

oops – sorry for the super long comment.

Your completely right about teacher competency. Sometimes it like playing roulette and whatever teacher you get affects what results you are capable of. That’s not saying you can’t teach yourself outside of class but the majority of 2nd level students will not do that.

Being a teacher in Ireland is far to much of a cosy number imo with not enough governance of their preformance.!

For anyone thinking that teaching is “cosy” – try home schooling and see if your opinion changes.

There is some effort being made by the Teaching Council in terms of teacher code of professional conduct. The problem of kids being motivated to learn is not a case of good teachers versus bad teachers – there are a whole spectrum of reasons. I’m not trying to deflect from the fact that there are teachers there like those you describe – you’re absolutely right – I’m just saying this is actually a massively complex area.

The truth is that there are a lot of barriers to reform in education – the wheels turn slowly at the best of times but with these harsh times it’s even worse.
One of the main barriers to reform IMO is how this and previous governments have succeeded in devaluing teaching as a profession. Teachers have some responsibility there too though.

Personally I’d like to see the system change to a semesterised one and have teachers step up to the plate in terms of having the confidence to defend their own integrity by marking their own pupils’ work.

When I said ‘cosy’ I meant in terms of job security regardless of preformance – I have no doubt teaching is a challenging profession.

It’s not really a massively complicated area. There were kids in my class who were motivated, and there were kids who didn’t give a damn. Individual teachers made a huge difference, and there was a huge variation in teaching ability. Even the good teachers got frustrated occasionally but the bad ones were very very bad all the time.

Funnily enough, the kids generally know who the good teachers are. Amongst other lessons the system teaches hypocrisy.

‘dull and uninspiring’? Seems like you were perfectly matched so.

hey, maybe they have a ‘mature students’ course?

I disagree – it doesn’t guarantee fairness at all. It suits a certain type of learner.

I couldn’t agree more with this comment. Losing the fairness of the current system would be a big loss if we moved to a new system of teacher-corrected continuous assessment and references for getting into college.

A donation to a college in the US can sometimes sway a student’s application. Do we really want that system here?

As for your assertion that its a great lesson for working life due to its fairness, well you have to be public servant where fairness is union controlled, because anybody expecting fairness in the private sector is in for a major shock.

How did you get on in English? Y’know, with the spelling and the punctuation etc? :-)

Nope, industry needs creative thinkers. It sounded like you were trying to create a contrast there with the comment about “the West”. Are you aware of how educational systems in “the East” work, for example?

Of course industry needs thinkers, but they don’t understand that yet obviously! The education system is way too narrow and very little of what is learned in school is of any real use once you enter the real world.