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Dublin: 10 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Column: Want to value your house for the property tax? Here’s a guide.

There is confusion over the valuation of homes for the property tax, writes Ronan Lyons – so here’s a handy informal guide.

Ronan Lyons

DEAR GOVERNMENT,

Well, you can’t say you weren’t warned. Yes, it was a noisy time for all concerned, with plenty of people telling you they didn’t want to pay any sort of property tax, no matter how cleverly designed. But still, there were those of us who argued all year long for a smart tax with a smart design. One that got lots of information into the system, to enable the auditing that means everyone is paying the fair amount. And perhaps more importantly one that kickstarted economic activity, rather than just another form of income reduction.

Really, the whole thing was quite messy. One of your own agencies, the Land Registry – who can tell you who owns what plot of land and what’s on the land – was apparently not consulted once. The debacle of the Household Charge shows the same happened with GeoDirectory, which is a database of addresses and their physical locations, maintained by An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland, two more of your agencies.

The mess continued on Budget Day, when people were told they had to self-assess the value of their homes – but were given no good incentive to do so well. Some of us advised giving people a tax credit in Year 1 to have their property professionally assessed and in their tax return give the Revenue Commissioners the kind of information needed for good auditing.

Instead, the door was left wide open for a most unwelcome experiment in game theory, where neighbourhoods come together and coordinate their valuations at below-market rates, leaving Revenue Commissioners powerless to find any individual resident guilty of tax evasion. Which is why they have decided to value the properties themselves, apparently. But of course, not least thanks to a rather detail-sparse Property Price Register, they have none of the direct information needed to do this.

So, as you’re quite fond of saying yourself, we are where we are. Now what?

Estimates

As it happens, I actually spend quite a bit of my time worrying about how best to value properties, segment the property market, etc. I’m actually just fresh from a renovation of some of those models. And the good news is that with the right information – in particular a property’s size and location – it’s quite easy to come up with reliable estimates of a property’s worth.

So, between breakfast and starting work this morning, I developed the following estimate of Irish property values. It should work in all areas, urban and rural, and for all major property types (apartments, bungalows, terraced, semi-d and detached) and sizes (one- to five-bedrooms).

So how does it work? To work out the value of a property, simply take the starting point (a three-bed semi-d in Louth) and then multiply it by whatever factors you need. In particular, pick your county or urban area, if different; and pick your property type and size.

So for a four-bed bungalow in Sligo, the €108,000 starting point is multiplied by 0.875 (prices in Sligo relative to Louth), by 1.355 (prices for four beds compared to three beds) and 1.221 (prices for bungalows, compared to semi-ds). Multiplying them all together gives an estimate of the property’s value in Q4 2012: roughly €156,000.

A rough guide for valuing an Irish property in early 2013:

Hopefully, Mr. Government, this table is of some use as you try and disentangle yourself from yet another fine mess!

Some notes on the above table:

  • Clearly, this is by no means meant to capture every last factor affecting property values. (One simple extension is number of bathrooms – roughly speaking, every additional bathroom is associated with a 10 per cent higher price.) This model captures just under two-thirds of variation in house prices in Ireland, which – given the small number of factors included – is pretty good. But there’s still a third out there to explain. (Including effects for areas within counties would explain a significant chunk of the remaining variation, as it happens.) On average this will be right, and it will for the vast majority of cases be close, but of course there are always properties that have unobserved factors that dwarf what matters for most homes. The method underpinning the figures above explicitly excludes outliers, so as to better improve the estimates for the vast majority of homes.
  • The table above is based on 60,000 listings on Daft.ie over the year 2012, and allows for the fact that prices varied throughout the year. “Aha”, a sceptic might say, “these are only asking prices and sure we all know they are <insert pet peeve here – too high, too low, etc>”. As it happens, some pretty detailed research comparing asking and transaction prices shows they move together remarkably tightly, once controls for location and size are included (as they are here). Properties that sell typically sell for about 10 per cent less than their asking price, so for that reason the starting point of €108,000 is actually 90 per cent of the figure returned by the model. The key thing about the model is what it tells us about relativities (prices between counties), not necessarily levels.
  • Lastly, lest there be any confusion, I offer this table as a public service but can’t offer it as any more than what it is – one academic economist’s analysis of the market.

Ronan Lyons is an Irish economist based at Oxford University, and runs the Economic Research unit at Daft.ie. You can read more articles on his blog, where this piece originally appeared.

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Comments (97 Comments)

  • Can we take off the 20% fall that Fitch says is coming?

    Reply
  • One way to value a home ,take the price you paid for it and then take away how much the bank or building society are owed ,then look at the amount of money you will have to earn after tax to pay back the bank and building society .then ask why you are paying a tax on something that has no financial benefit to you and instead is a liability.

    Reply
  • Still think my idea is the best one ! Something is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it…true?
    But….most of our homes are currently unsaleable…no one wants to buy them…true also?
    Therefore they are worth nothing…nada…zero euro !
    So it follows logically ….you guessed it….you owe no tax !

    Reply
  • The value of your home,

    The price you can sell it for, minus legal fees etc, minus amount owed on mortgage, minus price of a decent caravan to live in, minus ground rent for said caravan.

    Reply
  • This model fails miserably to account for massive variation within small geographical areas.

    E.g the broad brush strokes would put Georgian Village, Castleknock in the same category as Mulhuddart in Dublin 15 or Torquay Rd, Foxrock and the considerably less salubrious Ballyogan in Dublin 18.

    Reply
    • There should be No property tax because it is a psychological mark on whether people decide to stop spending into the biggest section of our economy (Local Economy). We should instead be replacing it with a wealth tax on the rich.

      Reply
  • NAMA, IBRC, the Central Bank of Ireland, the Department of Finance and the Covered Institutions were opposed to a site value tax. Despite the fact that a site value tax, if large enough would have inhibited the property market hyper inflation and subsequent implosion, we can trust our permanent government and representative government to avoid the sane and rational policy each time.

    One thing is sure. 0.18 per cent is the start. That rate will increase substantially over time.

    We were victims of a dysfunctional property market, fostered and encouraged by the then Government, the Central Bank of Ireland, the Banks and the Developers. Now that we are trapped , this is the time to crunch us with an increasingly severe and anti borrower victim tax. There is no escape. There is no equity and there is no mercy.

    Reply
    • peter there is an escape just dont pay the tax. There was an organised campaign of boycott to the house hold charge and approx 600,000 didnt register ,and didnt suffer any ill effects. the agency couldnt collect so the enlisted the county councils to see if the could collect the failed and then the handed it over to the revenue and if we all stick together as a nation the revenue will fail also. Some taxes are illogical and a tax on a persons home is one,take some countries where the decided to tax children as the said children are bad for the environment as the are pollouters so the put extra taxes on nappies, etc. . Is that the act of a tyrannical state? yes in my view and trying to tax my home is another warped tax by an uncaring government . wake up ,stand up and dont keep taking the bullshit ,it is not our debt therefore not ours to pay simple as.

      Reply
  • Revenue are going to give my house a valuation? What makes them experts in the this field?

    If professionally valued at a lower price can we pay at that price, I assume we can.

    If I sell my house for a value less than the “experts” in revenue can I claim back the excess property tax I paid based on the selling price, I assume not (though this could work against you if you sold for more than the revenues estimate)

    Reply
    • Property tax will likely be abolished in the next election if the opposition get voted in. We need to stop taxing property for ordinary people. The rich should be sharing the burden. I hope the Irish people give the opposition a chance…

      Reply
  • I own and live in an apartment. Most Lending institution will not lend on apartments. I am unable to sell at even 60 percent of the value provided by this method.

    In the old days, I remember that a property was worth what you could sell for it.

    I have a suggestion. It’s the most exciting game ever. The Revenue sends out its estimates. Every recipient has a call option to call on Revenue to purchase at the estimate value. Estimates without consequence are figures plucked out of the ether.

    I am willing to play this game. Is anyone else on for this?

    Reply
  • I have my own calculator thanks … Get you negative equity , divide it by 100 and multiply by .18 …. Or the Texas Instruments one says I paid €33,000 in stamp duty in 2007 and will not do any calculation based on fairness …. Government – go and shite

    Reply
  • So a fair property tax will kickstart economic activity as opposed to income reduction.Is a tax no matter what the comodity that is being taxed not a from of income reduction.In other words less net disposable income to spend in ones local economy?

    Reply
  • Not very accurate tbh. My house is valued under this formula at 127K. Three months ago it was professionally valued at 97K. Quite a difference there so. Using this generalised formula would see me paying €135 more per annum than I should (to put it another way thats about roughly 130% more p.a.).

    Reply
    • Same with my calculations! I would be delighted if the valuation of my gaff accorded with the table…

      Reply
    • Ryan'O 09/01/13 #

      Me too! Either my calculations are wrong or I bought a little gold mine. Tell me how the hell a 4bed semi D, in D16 is worth more now by that calc than it was when I got it valued in the boom at 380k?? One house sold for 210k a few weeks ago, the rest are still for sale along with a crumbling concrete nama owned beacon complex with penthouse apartments for social housing at €50 per week!!!!

      This is ridiculous and if the ‘experts’ can’t get it right the rev/gov have no chance if getting it right. I’d gladly sell my house if I got that price for it but I’d be lucky to get 280k and that’s being optimistic. This will not end well at all.

      Reply
    • 4 bed semid in d16 comes out less than 380. 335 by my calc.

      Reply
    • According to that my 4 bed 2 storey semi detached would come out at €129,510. According to the property price register since 2010 in this estate a detached bungalow with FPP for Creche/Doctor/Dental Surgery sold for €100k, 3 bed semi 2 storeys for €100k, €90k and €109k and a 3 bed detached bungalow went for €180k. The 4 bed 2 storey semi two doors down was on the market for nearly a year at €60k with no interest and next door which has been extended and has 5 bedrooms including a granny flat is nearly a year up for sale and as I look at the Oates website is now down to €70k. I took out a mortgage in 2007 to convert the garage into a disabled access bedroom with en-suite for my mum after she had hip and knee replacements. It was professionally valued then at €265k. So how do the Revenue expect to come up with a value based on such diverse information. I will be basing my valuation on the asking prices of the houses next door not some silly formula.

      Reply
    • I’m not bothering with that calculator. The house next door is going for €109,000 so that’ll do me.

      Reply
    • I agree, I tested this out on my house and my parents house, my house was at least 40k over valued (I don’t think he took into account the difference in prices between north and south Kildare) while my parents house was @30k undervalued.

      Reply
  • What happens if you in a shared ownership home with the council. Who pays it??? Council still own the majority.

    Reply
  • How do I value my house when a house in the estate sold for a quarter what I payed for mine. This is as clear as mud.

    Reply
  • The most disappointing thing about all of this is there are so many people who think this is a good thing & we should all pay a property tax because other countries in Europe do. As many experts & folks with a modicum of common sense know – you can not tax your way out of a recession. All FG & Labour have achieved to date is taking our money which we have worked for & give it away to extremely wealthy private interests who gambled & lost but are now winning all the way to the bank. It’s akin to innocent people being jailed for other peoples crimes & somehow that’s ok! And this govt maintain that their not touching income tax ! They really are that stupid. The threat of the revenue will ensure payment but I think they have signed their political death warrants with this. Here’s hoping anyway.

    Reply
    • The threat of Revenue is horseshit and they know it, unless of course you paid into the original scam in the first place. They have no database otherwise. That was the whole point of the original scam, to get people to pay for the privilege of bringing themselves to this scam’s attention.

      Reply
  • It is amazing that the Irish accept Tax on their Family homes and are more concerned at how to calculate it.
    They have short memories.

    A home is not wealth. Unike a second house you cant earn a revenue stream from it.
    There is no allowance for inability to pay … wait till your dead and take it from your family.

    US home tax is so oppressive ($6979 p.a. AVG in New Jersey) millions of them live in Trailer Parks to try to avoid it
    and live.
    - France AVERAGE home tax is an oppressive €1,800 pa so many cram into little hovels in little villages to try to
    reduce it and live…. tourists think the little red roofs are picturesque! … hovels and virtually all of them leak!
    Europe’s shanty towns caused by an oppressive home tax.
    - Yep, Germany doesn’t really pay home tax, 200 – €400 pa and only 46% own their own homes. 77% Irish.

    We should not listen to Troika on this one – Home Tax … Daft! …. asking us to pay Rent to Government Landlords.

    Don’t forget to sign the Home Tax Petition at:- http://www.HomeTaxPetition.net

    Reply
  • A property is worth what the buyer pays for it

    Reply
    • Property tax will likely be abolished in the next election if SF/Independents win. They will instead introduce a wealth tax on the top 10%. Feel sorry for people who registered their property :-

      Reply
    • Sinn Féin Independents government? Are you mad?! That will never happen. It will be a Fine Gael minority government

      Reply
    • Mr. Orde,

      Fine Gael are likely to loose the next election for two main reasons:

      (1) They introduced a property tax (despite alternative avenues available)
      (2) They will introduce water charges (which are likely to cost the ordinary Irish family approx €800 per year)

      Give me a good reason why anyone would want to vote FG in 2016 taking the above into account.

      Reply
    • And a tax on people who fly to America for private health treatment. And a tax on people who fly the Atlantic first class. And a tax on people who have homes in Belfast and Donegal and, for the purposes of being elected to the Dail, in Dundalk. And a tax on people who pocketed £1m in expenses while a Westminster MP without ever attending the House of Commons. Sure if they hit Gerry with that lot – and all of the above apply to him – sure we’ll all we well fixed.

      Reply
    • A reason for wanting Fine Gael? Well, as opposed to Sinn Fein I can think of a few. Teebane. Kingsmill. Jean McConville. Claudy. Warrington. Tom Oliver. Bloody Friday….

      Reply
    • Mr. Murray,

      I’m not suggesting we tax someone hiding behind a tree. We need a debate on why taxes on the top 10 per cent are at a 25 year low. Since the 1980’s, taxes on the top 10 per cent have been falling due to:

      - tax breaks
      - tax reliefs
      - tax anomalies
      - tax exemptions

      The rich use all of the above (if not some). I hope the next government will be accountable to its citizens instead of accountable to wealthy elites who don’t want to pay their fair share of taxes. I hope the people campaign for this to happen sooner.

      Reply
    • Firstly, Labour will be the party that will make the most loses. The minority party usually comes off worse from a coalition. Their seats will most likely go to Fianna Fáil, some independents and possibly Sinn Féin.

      Secondly, even though Fianna Fáil have risen in the polls recently, they will not be in a position to be in government. Fine Gael are likely to retain a similar amount of seats. 2016 is three years away and a lot can change by than. Most likely Ireland will just be coming out of recession.

      Finally, Sinn Féin. They offer no credible solutions. They simply shout a lot and promise the world to the electorate. Looking at vote distribution from GE2011, Sinn Féin mainly garnered their votes from urban working class areas. This is their support base. It’s highly unlikely that it will move into the middle class and rural areas.

      Reply
    • Changing tax on all of those would raise only a fraction of what is needed. That is no reason not to do it. The very rich should pay a lot more. Politicians should lead by example and that includes all of the left wingers who aren’t slow about pocketing thousands tax free each month in expenses and allowances.
      We must retain some reliefs and incentives. Sadly, many of those who create the wealth which in turn creates jobs, need to be enticed. It’s not right. It’s just fact.
      Sinn Fein’s policies, and indeed those of most left wing parties, are admirable when it comes to taxation. They’re just not realistic.

      Reply
    • Mark, no one is going to go into a coalition with sein fein and they are never going to get an overall majority on their own. They will never be in power, thankfully.

      Reply
    • Have to agree likelihood of sf/independents remote considering their populist economics never add up. Who needs a multitude of Wallaces and Dalys . If any of these got into government we would end up like Albania.

      Reply
    • People change. Parties change. As far as I’m concerned, I will vote for any party that scraps this regressive property tax. SF will do well in the next election if they commit to abolishing it.

      Reply
    • Agree Martin after all our main stream politicos have done so well…..

      Reply
    • @ Ronan Lyons.
      Instead of trying to assist us in working out how much more tax that we should be paying and thus how much less our families will be able to live.
      And instead of trying to get us comfortable with this heinous “tax”.

      I think that the article should be about why we should not and will not pay a “tax” that goes directly to pay for the corruption/criminality of corrupt people and criminals.
      The corrupt people and the criminals that destroyed our country and the lives of millions of innocent people.
      The corrupt people and the criminals that our, bought out government insist on harboring and rewarding with our money.

      The focus should be on stopping the tens of thousands of financial stress related suicides.
      The focus should be on helping the hundreds of thousands trapped in debts dished out by reckless corrupt/criminal banks.
      The focus should be on the helping the half a million households in negative equity.
      The focus should be on helping the half of the population that is below the poverty line.
      The focus should be on stopping the 80,000 young Irish natives emigrating every year.

      Not working out a tax that rewards the crimes of corrupt/criminal gamblers.

      Reply
    • My bet is still on a FG/FF government after a next election. There’s no way Sinn Fein will grow enough to become a serious threat and as the polls show the electorate is starting to forgive FF already.

      Reply
    • Scarr 10/01/13 #

      @mark – that’s my bet too. Not one I like however. Lab will lose big, FG will drop marginally (unless a great deal can be done on debt and job growth so don’t hold your breath), those leaving lab will go to FF and SF.

      Reply
    • @Scarr that’s my thinking exactly. As you said; Labour will at least half, FG will drop marginally and FF and SF will gain. So what will happen is that Labour can’t continue with FG and FG will rather sit with FF the SF at any stage. They’ll mutter something about the good of the nation and forgiveness and stuff like that and discover that they are pretty much the same on every policy.
      I’d hate to see it happen, but unless Labour has a miracle revival, I fear this is the most likely scenario.

      Reply
    • People are mistaken if sinn fein represent a credible alternative. They did not support the campaign against the household tax – the tax recently defeated by cahwt/capta activists. The capta boycott will defeat the property tax in 2013. However, it is still highly likely that fine gael will be reelected, and if it wasn’t, what difference would an election in 3 years make? A 3 year wait is not democratic. Sinn fein in gov then would not be relevant to the issues we face now. Active campaigning against these austerity measures is the only way to bring about change and increase democracy.

      Reply
    • i take it mark your sf or ff? bull the will do as the did before noting only screw us. next election i will be voting for a genuine non party ,non corrupt , non career politician. just look at donegal Thomas Pringle was voted in never having stood before and is doing sterling work for not just donegal but for ireland, Stephen donnelly is another example doing great work on the bail out and calling the spin of government for what it is crap and lies. So i or no one i know will be voting for the present shower and we wont we forgetting the ff party of corrupt, pension grabbing, shower of un-patriotic ,low lying bastards .

      Reply
  • Here a question for Revenue. If my house is valued at ?200k and I still owe ?150k to the bank, then is the actual net value of the property to me not ?50k? A property is considered an investment after all, you know just like shares are an investment, and you can obtain a tax deduction where shares lose value

    Reply
  • It’s all a load of horse shit , good night

    Reply
  • All home owners put their property up for sale.
    Agree or partner with your neighbour and offer each other one euro and both agree in principal that you are interested in the offer.
    This is now the value of your property as its the only offer you have and the reason it is so cheap is because the market is saturated.
    Anyone think that something like this could work?

    Reply
  • Just looking at Dublin 4 and the factor and I talked to an unemployed estate agent. Taking just Dublin 4, this covers Ballsbridge, Irishtown, Sandymount and Ringsend. Values vary immensely between these areas and even along the same roads.

    His overall assessment is that this well intentioned method likely over values more properties than it under values in the areas which he is familiar with.

    I will get my local TD to do the valuation of my apartment. As the expression goes, he will see me right.

    Prices are plummeting in the trophy home areas as with the old Residential Property Tax.

    Reply
  • What about the size/situation of the actual site? Is this relevant for the property tax? The same house could be in the corner of a field next to a flood prone river, or could have panoramic views of the mountains on a fully landscaped 2 acre site!

    Reply
    • Only the house on an acre are to be considered so as not to annoy the wealthy or the farmers. It hasn’t been specified as to who gets to say which acre you have to value. Farmers with long drives can say ‘well there’s the homestead with an acre around it but it doesn’t have any access so worth nothing on the open market.

      Reply
  • With all these comments about how to value a property, is there any thought given to ability to pay?. Circumstances can vary greatly from household to household.

    Reply
  • Conor 09/01/13 #

    Sad, Sad, Sad. We should be out on the streets protesting and bringing this Government down. Instead of devising cute, user friendly, inaccurate ways to pay the Bond Holders more of “OUR” money. Let’s get our Priorities right folks. “Can’t Pay, Won’t Pay.”

    Reply
  • Ronan lyons comes across like a guy with a vested Interest in the property tax.

    Reply
  • Thanks for that wonderful calculation formula. Have 2 houses in Co Wicklow to sell and will happily take a further 15% off for cash. Cloud cuckoo land figures.

    Reply
    • @ James, Would that we could work it the other way and quote this methodology as setting the sale price. I love your comment of 15 per cent off for cash. I can offer 35 per cent off mine. Brilliant reply.

      Reply
  • This crowd of degenerates expect me to cancel my Sky Sports subscription, they can go and have a shite for themselves. Ill leave it to come out of my estate when in dead but I’m afraid it will have to wait until then…over my dead body, literally.

    Reply
  • This doesn’t really work with this my house is valued over 172,000 yet I’ve had it on the market for 135,000 and still can’t sell it!!! Something amiss I think!

    Reply
  • CAPTA , the Campaign Against Property Tax and Austerity (formerly the anti Household tax campaign) is organising the fight against this unjust tax and the austerity program being imposed on the Irish people to pay for the gambling losses of the financial speculators. Go along to your local meetings and get involved.
    http://nohouseholdtax.org/
    The County Councils had the legal authority to take people to court over non payment of the Household tax. There they faced fines of €2500 and penalties of €100 per day if they failed to register for the tax. None of this occurred and the threats and bluster from the authorities evaporated because the mass boycott made it politically unacceptable. The government eventually conceded defeat when they abandoned the courts cases and passed the parcel to the Revenue.
    In the same way, a mass campaign of civil disobedience including a boycott of the Property tax can make the new draconian powers of the Revenue redundant. They have the powers but they will be unable to use them if large enough numbers of people refuse to co-operate with them.
    We are also asking for the support of the unions in this battle. The bulk of the staff of the Revenue Commissioners are members of the Unite and CPSU trade unions. It would throw a huge spanner into the austerity engine if those workers engaged in industrial action and refused to administer this unjust Property Tax.
    We are calling out to the members of UNITE and the CPSU to stand beside us in this fight.

    Reply
  • I did the calculation and the figure was nearly 300k more than I actually paid in 2011. Guess I’ll be holding onto my valuation report.

    Reply
  • cant you just go by the recent comparable sale in your area?

    Reply
  • The correct thing to do was to use a combination of the land registry and something like square footage. Financially disincentivising things like extra bathrooms can lead to people taking out downstairs wheelchair accessible bathrooms., or removing ensuites. Just like what we saw historically where buildings were liable for tax if they had a roof. Architecturally beautiful buildings had the roof ripped off and were left to rot unsealed because of this charge. In other countries, charging per room encourages people to knock internal walls and live completely open plan. These sorts of taxes can easily have unwanted side effects, they are a powerful tool. See the huge impact of that 15c charge for a plastic bag? How will a charge of hundreds of euro make people behave to reduce the cost?

    I like the grid in theory, but it fails on two points for me. Firstly, unless you add a lot of complexity for addresses, it fails on the side of inequity towards the impoverished areas. As an example, take cork city, Two similar size houses, one on Blackrock Road, and the other 2 miles away in Mahon, one 3 bed semi cost 100,000, the other 500,000. By the grid above, the charge on those properties is the same. Here the person in the lower value house is getting ripped off, while the higher value house is getting a very good deal. That’s not ethical, and will lead to justified discontent. Much much more granularity is required than what has been shown above.
    Secondly, the grid needs to be maintained and updated constantly to remain accurate in a free market. Otherwise people will try to second guess it, by buying in the perceived ‘cheaper’ area. However, maintaining that fluidity will give the impression of the system being unfair and random.

    Land registry + area is surely much simpler if they would go for it, but we can certainly all agree the self-assessed method is bananas.

    Reply
    • That’s an insightful and constructive reply. Your point about greater granularity is well made because the grid methodology is simplistic and has insufficient variables reflected in it. I wonder though if it might provide a simplified base for a more sophisticated model. No model is perfect but there can be a margin of error at 0.18 per cent.

      It would be a huge help if an online model could be created where a house owner could key in all of the variables into a model which has dynamic inputs of most recent transaction values and produced a 10 per cent plus or minus result.

      The next step would be a fine tuning by reference to even more specific details, individual to the property, say anti social neighbours, a piggery next door etc , etc and a formal review system to make final adjustments.

      There are going to be major infrastructural challenges with this tax. The developer of our complex went bust and left the fabric and facilities in a total mess. I even wonder if it would be moral of me to sell knowing the myriad of problems. The CIF, Homebond, Department of the Environment etc etc could not assist us and there may even be major fire defects in the building but we are afraid to have a Priory Hall situation. So we take our chances. I don’t intend this to be a moan or a bleat but merely a demonstration of your point about granularity. Knowing what I know I would not pay Eur 10,000 for the apartment but maybe an uninformed buyer might pay a heavily discounted price for it.

      There were no regulatory standards, no quality control, no building control, no prudential supervision of Banks, no building control of an external nature and now we pay property tax even though we pay a massive service charge because of all the problems. And for the services which the local authority does not provide.

      I think that equity and reasonableness are missing.

      Reply
    • You fail to see the actual issue here. This tax isn’t really for local services – it’s to pay off bondholders directly. Money that you are taxed from your payslip is taken to pay for those services. Car tax is taken to pay for roads, streetlights, etc. We don’t get free garbage collection. So why should I pay for the banks mistakes? Do they pay for mine?

      Reply
  • Tommy 09/01/13 #

    Dublin 18 was excluded.

    Reply
  • Great analysis. It’s depressing when someone is able to list the cock-ups the govt made on this issue, on a point-by-point basis. Another reason not to own a house, could you be bothered like.

    Reply
  • http://www.HomeTaxPetition.net : TAX on FAMILY HOMES is UNACCEPTABLE.

    Unjust Enrichment : (see Canons of Taxation)

    We do not accept paying Tax-Rent on our Homes to a Gov. Landlord to be used for:-
    - paying off the debt of private companies i.e. Banks. Daft!
    - pay increases (increments) to Government employees in a time of austerity. Dafter!
    ——————————————————————————————————

    Arbitrary Seizure of our property:-

    - by levy of this oppressive Tax-Rent with no consideration for ability to pay.
    - deferral if we cant pay, until we die, and then take it from our families.
    - force us to sell our homes so that some wealthy person can buy them!
    - County Council to sell your “Tax Lein” – your tax liability – to some vulture like in the US.

    ——————————————————————————————————
    Bankocracy

    If very strong firm talk is not directed quickly to your TDs, then kiss your Democracy goodbye.
    You will very shortly be living in a Bankocracy.
    —————————————————————————————————-

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  • Another important factor to take into account when valuing your home is the BER rating.

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  • Way off the mark.
    Next door neighbour has had house on the market for over 2 years.
    Presently asking for a price which is 56 thousand less than this guide throws up and still no offers.
    Its up for way below re build value even.

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    • Exactly my point – property value isn’t what some w-nker accountant thinks it’s worth, it’s what someone is prepared to pay. And that’s not what is being considered.

      Even the statistical analysis is flawed on the property register online. It lists homes in your area but not the amount of rooms, the status (terrace, semi- or detached). For instance, in my estate, it lists homes as being worth between €120’000 and 225’000, the top end being a detached 6 bedroom and the lower being terraced, two bedroom. It makes no distinction other than size overall, which is also deceptive.

      End of the day, your home is worth what you can sell it. It becomes a liability when that value is less than what you owe on it (the position of most homes in Ireland). In essence, we are being taxed on debt – and given the new rights being granted to banks, we don’t even own the house until the bank is fully paid. So why should we pay the charges to live in a bankers home?!?

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  • all this property tax assessment will do is give another bunch of under educated over dressed professional ” valuers ” more work.its a joke , sadly we will see some of your neighbours trying to inflate their house prices , hopefully they will see this is not going to work but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

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  • I don’t think a property tax is compatible with the property rights enshrined in our constitution but if otherwise I would have favoured the site value tax rather than the market value in order that every square inch of the country was considered as adivsed by every country that recommends a property tax. In that way the best use of land is encouraged.

    Anyway why I’m commenting on this journal is that I’m interested as to why unlike all the other major urban centres, properties in County Waterford are worth considerably more than in Waterford City?

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  • If the government is so intent on double-taxing the population why not tax all savings …?
    Less than €50k @ 5%
    €50k – €150k @ 10%
    More than €150k @ 20%
    Those with no savings who are seriously struggling or spending their income pay nothing.
    Fair …? Has anything been fair up to now? A nice little pot though …

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  • The property tax should be an outright wealth tax i.e. on the equity within not the debt.

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  • Not to give revenue any tips but have it as a percentage of your building sum insured aka what the actual rebuilding costs are & not the market value.

    People won’t falsify that figure, if the do they will under insure themselves. It is also a fairly stable figure & one upside would be let the insurance co’s collect it as part of your premium and reduce costs to revenue.

    It’s only a suggestion & probably has some flaws.

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    • I’d happily do this on my house in D6W. A 2 up 2 down terraced house. I’d rebuild it for a 1/3 of its current value.
      Rebuild cost don’t take into the price of the land it’s built on.
      My house would be the same value under this as a the same house in Mayo.
      Happy days if this was the case but its leaving out a big factor.

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    • @ Keith, that approach greatly favours people living in posh, salubrious areas and discriminates against those in deprived and socially troublesome areas. It would be a globally unique basis for charging a property tax, likely unworkable for apartment buildings and almost as unfair in its implementation as the concept of the tax itself.

      My apartment was never an investment. It was to be by home and it is now my prison. Now I am to pay the jailer for the privilege of my imprisonment.

      I have reconciled to living in my apartment unless or until the bank repossesses if I am unable to keep up the mortgage repayments. Do I pay the Bank or do I pay the new tax?

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  • Value is based on ability to sell. If your house won’t sell for reasonable value, it can’t have a value. Never mind the fact that the banks continuously insist we don’t own the property until all mortgage costs are paid…

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  • In a few years time we won’t even be discussing property tax. Anyone who thinks that another party will scrap this if voted in is off their heads, they will be delighted that someone else got the bad press for it and they can just blame the previous government. In UK they pay council tax, everyone pays it and they get all services for it. Cut the dole another bit and all the scrounges in Ireland who won’t work even in good times, we should all pay a bit to stop the guards being cut and the health service to get sorted. What about the old woman in Donegal who got robbed, ink about how much worse this will become when we have les guards. Really looking forward to getting old in this country.

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    • Michael when I see airplanes of people leaving this country its people like you i hope are on them.we all pay a bit to stop cutting the guards? wake up to whats going on around you and stop being angry with people around you for what ever situation your in. People who lost their jobs didnt make the decision to pay off bankers debt and cut the garda resources , it was politicians , the same politicians who ran away with their pension pots and these guys are cutting all around them except what effects them. note the €11 million the just added to the amount to run the dail as the had oveer spent in 2012 .this happened before the budget to balance the books and reported at Christmas in an englisg newspaper so before you go blaming others go educate your self to what is really going on .look up the meaning of banana republic might open your eyes.

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  • Well done Ronan…a simple, clear, concise, and most importantly, a user friendly system for house evaluation…now if only we could get people like you to populate the ranks of political influence we may have some hope for the future of this country…

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  • If it can’t pick itself up & run away – then it’s easy prey. People are being penalised for making a commitment to living in this country, while those with the national spirit of rattlesnakes are cushioned & courted.

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  • Revenue have not issued guidelines for valuation as yet. It would be sensible to have a professional value your property should this be challenged in the future given the penalties promised. There are many ways to calculate the approximate value of your property but a professional valuer is both qualified and insured to stand over their valuation.

    Ronan has an excellent grasp of the Irish property market but no two properties are alike, as a valuer I must declare a bias in this argument and I would recommend picking up the phone to your local valuer, they’re always happy to talk property

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  • This is total crap. There are people out there other than you that live outside the Dublin area but I guess you “Dubliners” are so used to living with your heads up your own arses you have yet to reakise that.

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