If a farmer came onto my property and discharged a firearm it would be the last time they ever fired a shot…that’s totally unacceptable and the gun should have been taken by the Gardai. If a farmer gets a dog on his land that’s a different story. I have a dog and I make sure he’s fenced in properly, exercised and secured in his yard at night….there are too many people with dogs they cannot properly care for cooped up in totally unsuitable accommodation and frankly being abused. The legislation such as The wildlife act and control of dogs act are old with some amendments and need improving with much stiffer sanctions for offences…only dog wardens have power under the control of dogs act to demand licences and seize dogs…the system doesn’t care about farmers and there livestock and that’s why I advocate the gun (on the farmers land only!!)

That’s all very fine said
But a very angry farmer follows a dog Meets owner they have a row
Someone gets injured or killed
How do you fix that ?

That would be murder or manslaughter last time I checked!

Well done that’s what it would be

And that’s what would happen if a lot of angry farmers were allowed to run loose with guns

?? Who’s running loose where?? Farmers who have a properly licenced firearm have it for the control of pests on their land. This has always been the case. A farmer is entitled to defend their stock on their own property and more power to them I say.

You are not reading my comments
I said if the farmers tempers flared that is what would happen , and possibly someone could be injured or killed
I have seen it in the past when gamers and dog owner have almost pulled the heads off each other

I am reading your comments but I’m confused at to what your point is! Do you think a farmer should be permitted to shoot a stray dog on their own land? The law says they can. Anybody who brings a firearm to a row with a neighbour should and would have that gun taken off them by Gardai and never be allowed get a licence again! That’s the law too!

Just sitting here reading your comments and my husband has just spent last two hours searching for cattle that the Hunt have drove out of our land with gangs of dogs into neighbours fields and could easily be out on to public road as well. When yo get dogs attacking animals will not just stay to be attacked so often it is into someone else’s property they go

@ Kay.. Excellent comment..

@ Farmers wife… That’s a true comment too, happened to my bro-in-laws cattle recently…

Well said Madra Rua. I wish that this would actually happen and I apologise for my pessimistic view but The money to set this up simply isn’t there. Another good idea I heard was certain breeds should have a far higher licence fee to deter the idiots who think its okay to have 5 German Shepards in a tiny back yard so that only proper responsible owners who care about the dogs and not their own “street cred” would get them.

Excellent point. Why did they take that add off?? Probably afraid someone would be offended by Lassy bearing their teeth!! Anyone in doubt should be shown the carcass of a sheep after a dog attack but again in an age when it’s ok to show graphic sex and violence people find true nature “too distressing” there was a Richard Attenborough Africa episode on last night and apparently there was a warning given that some viewers may find the baby elephant dying distressing!!! (***mary mary jumps down off soap box***)

@ Stephen .. I see where you’re coming from but it’s not the way to go.. To bring in Microchipping is the best way really and would make dog owners responsible if something happens with their dog. My cousin in the USA was telling me that if your dog is found wandering alone, even if he’s not up much, the owner is liable & fined. I know plenty of farmers that have shot dogs on their land too and I don’t blame them in the slightest.. Microchipping ties the dog to the owner and would stop alot of gossiping in local communities too about whose dog it was actually that killed the neighbours sheep !!

Ensuring all dogs are microchipped would never be enforced here.

As for fining owners of dogs found wandering alone? See my first sentence.

Dogs attacking sheep has devastating affects. Its sadly a regular occurrence on my Dads farm. Find the owners? They hide the dog and deny it exists.

All well and good Lucille but this is Ireland, do you think for a second we could have laws like that, chipping, controlling , fining, I don’t think so, my local warden albeit a nice man, pretty dismal at his job.

@ Sheila.. They can’t deny the dog is theirs if he’s microchipped can they?

if you can find the dog…

Once bitten eh Stephen!

Just to be clear, I’m not advocating shooting dogs at will. But if the state won’t / can’t do something about it, then who can blame farmers protecting their livestock & livelihood.

I do think bad owners need to be educated on how to look after and control their dogs. This, I think, is not achievable in Ireland. Currently at least.

“there’s no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners” – an old adage that is a generalisation, but I fear true for the majority of cases.

I agree laura , and out of people’s gardens too

Or ye could slow down? Not being smart but there are hundreds of miles of common lands used around the country to graze sheep you can fence it all off. I’ve seen the absolute revolting damage a dog will do to a sheep….A lovely cute doggy will rip the unborn lamb from a Sheeps belly and feck off home in time for breakfast. I agree with Stephen blast any dog on farmland… the law is an ass in this area.

@ Laura.. That’s just silly… I live in Connemara and you have to expect to see sheep on the roads .. 99% of the local population do and 99% of the tourists also.. In fact .. Tourists are more of a havoc because they are always stopping to take pics!!

Well said Ms Ball!

Turn on the headlights.

smartarse, i do have the headlights on (or dims if needs be). However I stand by the point that farmers still need to fence in their animals properly

Dave is not being a smartarse Laura coz he’s being a dumbarse (sorry Dave) the phrase “dazzled in the headlights” is just that – the animal will freeze on the spot which is more dangerous! A little beep beep works better!! And as for the fencing you can’t fence commonage. Sorry Laura!

marymary im not on about commonage, im well aware when im going up connor pass im going to meet sheep, i dont think its right that they are all over the road, but it is common land, im on about sheep that farmers have not sorted their fencing properly on their own land, and their sheep are all over the road!!!!!

I absolutely hear your point Laura. Livestock can and do breakout and when they do break out of a fenced in piece of that the farmer should absolutely act and if the sheep damaged a car than the farmer should pay. I feel that the dogs killing sheep is a bigger problem though.

And what do YOU do to bunnies??!!

King Olaf I’m sorry but ye haven’t a clue. If a dog owner keeps their dog under control than it won’t be on a farmers land and it won’t get shot. Saying a farmer should get a bigger dog?? To do what?? Roam around freely policing the sheep??? It doesn’t work like that!! And by the way to say a properly trained dog won’t do it is being just plain naive. It’s in a dogs most basic and natural instinct to do it. Dog owners must control their dogs and if not they should be allowed keep dogs…as this system is not working a farmer has to protect their stock on their own property.

Mary – I presume you understand the concept of properly trained?? I’m not talking about paddy down the field sitting with the dog and telling him not to eat the sheep. Dogs have been used for guarding livestock for centuries. Treat the dog right and it will never consider it. Dogs are naturally pack animals, so the first stage of it training as a pup is to put it in a pen with some of the sheep. It then views the flock as its pack and thus begins the process of teaching it to protect and never harm them.

Trust me, I know a thing or two about dogs. They are far more effective than a gun. A gun is a final solution only to each dog that attacks livestock. However the scent of a another dog protecting a herd or flock is sometimes enough to put off any would be attackers. If the intruder dog still decides to go after the livestock, a properly trained guard dog will deal with it.

How would this work in practice? Sheep may be grazing over a large area of land? How does the dog police that?

King Olaf What you say may be true and in fact I think that in some cases at least, the farmers own dog is a good deterrent. However in the real not every farm is one block of land or indeed a farmer doesn’t always have his house on the farm. The sheep are not one group, they are usually in two or multiple groups. A farmer and his dog can’t be everywhere.

The dogs that are used for this are called livestock guardian dogs. They are not herding dogs, they are not used in any way for moving a flock from A to B. They aren’t pets either,they spend their entire working life outdoors mostly. They actually live with the flock of sheep, they move when it moves and stay where ever they stay.

A livestock dog isn’t trained in a traditional manner. They are more socialised. Because dogs are such social creatures, they imprint on whatever animal is around it most. Ask anyone with a pet dog? The dog doesn’t think its a dog. It thinks it is an equal member of the pack (family). So a livestock pup is put in with a flock of sheep when it is a few months old and it imprints with the sheep. It sees the sheep as it pack. So will never hurt them, will always stay with them and will always protect them. It has its limits, as in a dog that is imprinted with sheep would not protect cattle and so on.

The reason they are so successful when protecting their herd or flock is because as I mentioned before the scent of the dog to another predator is usually enough to put it off. Also they rarely ever have to kill the predator either. Livestock dogs are usually quite big and use an aggressive display to get rid of predators, but they will fight to the death if needs be also. In Africa Anatolians are used to protect sheep against lions and other big cats.

Obviously the bigger the herd or flock of animals and the bigger the area, the more guard dogs you would need.

There is more info here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog

Art – I’m not saying its the perfect solution. There are some flaws with it but as you say a farmer and his dog can’t be everywhere. Neither can a farmer and his gun. Now I am not farmer myself but I have relatives that are and I am pretty sure that they don’t carry their shotgun or rifle around with them all the time. So there would be little they could do at the time if a dog was killing their livestock. By the time they come back with their gun, the dog might be gone.

If you have a dog assigned to guard a herd though, he would be with them 24/7 . As you point out though, if a farmer has two or more flocks of sheep for example, well then he would need more guard dogs. So yeah that would be an added expense. I am just saying that it is a better solution than shooting dogs after the act has been committed. Someones pet dog which is innocent will end up being killed if that is the only solution. And what some farmers sometimes tend to forget is that people keep animals for things other than making living. If someone killed any of my dogs they would be killing a friend essentially.

Besides it isn’t like the rest of the dogs in the area are going to learn not to attack sheep because Sparky down the road was executed. Its their owners who are at fault for allowing them roam. Those kind of owners are unlikely to care really either, so the problem isn’t solved. Another sheep dies, another dog is shot. No one is really winning. With a guard dog the chance of sheep being killed is drastically reduced and therefore everyone wins.

King Olaf I should have said at the beginning, My father is a sheep farmer and we have no gun in the house and no interest in the hassle. however if any farmer decided to shoot a dog or any animal that was attacking sheep while it was on his property, I would not blame him. The dog should be put down but it could be impossible to find the dog afterwards. If a dog strikes once, he’ll probably strike again. Also given the number of strays or abandoned dogs running in packs it’s hard to be worried who they are belonged to.
I also completely agree with you that eventually some trigger happy farmer is going to shoot a harmless labrador walking down the road from his house.
On the point of the guard dog, it looks like something that is only practical in large mountain flocks or flocks in national parks. the average sheep farmer in ireland couldn’t afford to be buying, training and feeding herding and guard dogs. We have about 200 sheep on the farm at any one time plus cattle. You just couldn’t justify it.

To summarise I’m not sure there is much to be done, especially in the short term to prevent sheep attacks and guns rarely solved anything. But for the life of me I can’t understand why the majority of the poll on the other article is against microchipping! If nothing else it might cut down on the number of dogs dumped after Christmas.

Art – I can’t disagree with you on the fact that once a dog gets a taste for killing livestock it is very unlikely to stop. Unfortunately you are right also that it should be put down.

You know better than I about livestock farming in Ireland given your experience, so if it isn’t realistically practical here from a financial point of view well then I accept that. These dogs would be quite expensive to purchase as they would be purebred, although with some breeds there is no training required but I get your point anyway. I just thought as a preventative measure it could have been a solution.

Can’t understand why anyone would be against microchipping either, it seems like common sense. If your dog gets lost and is picked up, it can be returned to you…or if it got knocked down, you would at least know. Should be made part of the dog licence registration. There is no accounting for the way some people think though!

Don’t think Grants are there for “Rover the Ripper” costs Richard.

Joe #1. If ye want to digress about Big Brother remember we are all already “chipped” in so many ways in our everyday lives!! But I think that that’s for another forum! #2. There are some people who should never ever own a dog just like there are some people who should never be allowed a licence for a firearm! Education won’t make a darn bit a difference to this fact! #3. Not all farmers are wealthy!! You’ve overdone that a bit!!

Mary, what will micro chipping do ? It wont stop dogs going onto farmers land. It wont make people properly fence in their dogs.
This is a pointless exercise & will just cost people money for no reason. Gun control in the UK has led to a 40% rise in gun offences when they took the legal guns off people. Criminals will get guns either way if they are controlled or not.
RFID chipping kids in America has already begun > http://rt.com/usa/news/texas-school-id-hernandez-033/

I would like my chip in my brain please. I AM A CYBORG BEEP BOOP.

Martin I aint the one advocating chipping dogs!!