Should be “served enough time”

FF and later FG have just went with these bailouts. Neither had the mandate then or now so I would support a referendum

better than a no confidence motion, it might even strengthen the governments hand

no confidence carried or not wouldn’t do much more than reshuffled bums in seats in dail.
pulling the plug on bailouts could make the biggest difference. worse case would be renegotiating of debt in more favourable terms. Best case unscure loans are written off allowing Ireland pull out of this recession quicker.

couldn’t agree more

#Ben- I don’t think Sinn Fein need to be “labelled” extremists. Proof is in the pudding there.

Vincent Dolan, whether or not they are extremist is not my call on this thread. I make the point that that is how FG will describe them in the debate.

Ultimately, the Irish people will decide whether they want property taxes abolished in the next general election. If not and if they re-elect Fine Gael’s moral hazard and profligate spending on their constituencies and banks, then it is a reflection on people’s ability to vote.

Yes. I agree totally. Sinn Fein absolutely need to be wiped out. An awful cancer eating away at the body politic here.

#Mike- when you say “Little circle of supporters” do you mean those who made them the biggest party in the state by a country mile and who continue to do so in successive polls? Can’t be that small a circle, I would have thought.

@ Vincent.
No.I mean the multitude that voted on an “anybody but ff basis” and people (like myself) that voted based on the pre election promises that ever so quickly turned into lies.
They are the people oitside the cliques I talk about…..
Next question.

It’s just the term “small circle” suggests an insignificant subset, not the largest party. As does “clique”. I mention this just in passing. Now I know many in this country love their independents- and why wouldn’t they- the likes of Mick Wallace, Ming, Heali Rae and Michael Lowry are outstanding parliamentarians- straight from the tradition of O’Connell and Parnell and I know others would hand our country over to terrorists or the party that created this mess…..but I reckon FG are happy enough to be consistently performing around the 30% mark. I mean can you ever really convince someone who voted for Ming about the merits of responsible economic policy? Do you want to, even?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
FG blue shirt alert. Slogan….

Party before people, bankers before people, EU before people…..fcuk the people we have our pensions!!!

Seriously Vincent the tripe you come out with all of the time I’d swear you were on HRT or something. That would explain why your so delusional.

Vincent.
You have surpassed even that miserable slug hogan for talking slurry.
Seriously man, you should avoid whatever medication your on, you could hurt yourself and what would we do for amusement.
Fine statesmen…… Oh lord,now I have a noseful of tea.

@ Vincent.
If being a troll was a crime I would gladly call around and bundle you into a car,we can but wish.

#Mike- you’re, not your- as “medication you are on”…..

#Mike- now’s not the time for you to vent your homo-erotic fantasies. See how I used the right “your” there?

#Mike- it does explain the Village People hat, though!

Vincent, I don’t object to being associated with the LBGT community because any body that knows me also know I have a huge amount of friends in the community and I am damm proud to have such genuine friends.So stop trying to get a rise.
Do us all a favour and get back on subject or stop trolling .

#Mike- relax. It was only a joke. You should know, though that trolls are those who seek to provoke people online for the sake of provoking them. I believe every word I say. The fact that you don’t agree does not make a a troll. It makes you wrong. But it doesn’t make me a troll.

@ Vincent.
Joke taken and no offence taken at all.
I also believe what I say as well and sure thats what makes life interesting. So we’ll agree to disagree and live on for more debating.
Now about this shower of clowns you support *tounge in cheek*

I don’t think he is a “troll” , looks like he works for a certain “party” and his job is to make comments

#Joe- I like your thinking. If there’s anyone reading this in FG or Labour Head Office, I accept Cheques, Visa Cards and butter vouchers. I don’t have the machine yet for Debit Cards. I suspect either political party would want a more conciliatory voice to articulate their argument, though.

You have just listed the POTHOLE politicians, they haven’t a clue about contributing to macro economic issues.

Pothole politations…. Classic !!!
Quote of the week.

The majority of us are not thugs.

@Patrick- you and I are not thugs, but the FG and Lab alliance treats people with very little respect, so they are political thugs, in my opinion. Gerry Adams is providing some semblance of opposition to the vastly overpowering government majority and in a viable democracy we need that, regardless of his past actions. As I said though that is just my opinion. I don’t claim to know what, or how, others feel, but I respect the need for a functional democracy.

#Kenneth- do you know how stupid you sound when you brandish Fine Gael thugs and nominate Gerry Adams as a Saint. SF have killed Gardai, robbed banks, extorted protection money and dealt in drugs. And that’s just in the South. Don’t be embarrassing yourself.

Vincent- When you get the chance please read my comment. I never said Adams was a saint. He most certainly is not. I know you’ve been upset by others pointing out your arrogance, and ignorance, on this thread, but I was remarking to Patrick that I feel we need a viable opposition in this democracy and Adams et al are providing it. You may think that is embarrassing, but that is your opinion. I have no desire to try and exonerate Gerry Adams republican actions, but if you cannot accept that it’s your problem, not mine. You seem wounded from others challenging and ridiculing your unwavering faith in this increasingly popular government, so perhaps lashing out makes you feel vindicated? Either way, you have embarrassed yourself… Again

#Kenneth- it’s went you put the words “Gerry Adams” and “Viable opposition” in the same sentence that you lose me. Terrorists living in fairytale land a viable opposition does not make. I’m a Government supporter in a left leaning forum populated with malcontents, so I’m far from wounded by reaction to what I say from the ” a magic wand will painlessly save our country” mob. I’d be more depressed if they were agreeing with me. As for “unquestioning support”, I think the reduction in support for carers is deplorable. Happier now?

Vincent are you suggesting that Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou, Sandra McLellan, Kathryn Reilly, David Cullinane etc,. all young politicians are all terrorists? What about members of Oigre Shinn Fein would they be considered terrorists aswell? Try not paint everyone with the one brush ;)

#Daryl- I’m saying that anyone who would align themselves with a party and a leadership that , for example lobbied for the early release of the murderers of Garda Jerry McCabe, has a political outlook that is incompatible with any Democracy and this Republic and cannot be trusted.

Yes yes yes. Gerry adams is a terrorist, same argument different day. get over it. your living in the past. i dont for one second condone what Gerry Adams did but i can understand why he resorted to doing it, and if you cant you lack any kind of foresight. what was going on in the north at the time was horrible and peaceful means was not working. then look at what happened on bloody sunday and its no wonder the IRA developed into what it became. anyway look, its in the past. currently SF are the only ones providing strong opposition to the government which is needed in any democratic scenario. that was then this is now.

Ah dose it make u a neo unionist to find it slightly ironic to hear that now they have no confidence in the government , that is the government of a state they didn’t recognise 5 minuites ago.. … Give us a break

What about the 9 years war that Hugh o’Neill started?. We haven’t forgotten or forgiven that here in FG HQ. .Friggin rebels always trying to upset the status quo. Know your frigging place.

Good man Gerry..up Dev eh?

Yeah Gerry. In the 60′s the shinners and rebellious types were blackened and castigated for slamming the church, their long standing enemy. For saying that the powers that be in this country were control obsessed thieves, whose only concern was for how much they could rob off the people for themselves, their families and friends.

They weren’t even close as to how rotten the state actually was.

SF are making more sense everyday
probably the only party that is in true opposition.

@ Stephen I can imagine they were blackened by the church because I’d put money on it none of the peado priests got away with touching up a republicans child along with the churches stance on the troubles.
so what if the church oppose anything as it was horrific the fear people had for a priest and the way they used the power even to beat childred,priests were just low life bacteria even the ones that didn’t touch or beat kids knew it happened so just as bad

Ya, they were all right, fierce worried about the plight of everyone that didn’t get in their way. What about the two little boys they blew to kingdom come in Warrington, what about their rights, and the rest. But shur they took on the church that makes it all ok.

Gerry. Like you give a toss about them, or the 9 kids that the British army shot in a week in West Belfast in the early 70′s. They don’t suit your bias so you couldn’t care either way, same as you couldn’t give a toss about Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry in Warrington. You didn’t even know their names you crud.

Republicans, Loyalists and Unionists and Nationalists can agree on one thing at least that the likes of you cashed in on the violence for years to distract from the failings and corruption of FG and FF and the UUP.

There I did it again , I forgot all ye chuckkys are cuddly and sensitive things now, god where would we b only for ye and ye all agreeing on everything now, god shur what’s a few thousand innocent deaths of men wemon and children compared to the corruption of the polotitions ,not ur crows of course, those ink cartridges were only resting in his account..

Says the man with a line of women’s arses for his avatar pic.

Tom that is

This joke has lost it’s puff now

Back at the issue(sorry, Gerry I know it breaks your tender heart)can we take it you have full confidence in the government,a.k.a. the Troika?

Funny how the Brits can accept that the war they started is over, but our local unionists cannot.

I was reading the Financial Times and the Wall St. Journal and they called Brian Lenihan a lying crook his party economic incompetents and mostly corrupt and the worst in Europe since the End of WW2. They consider FG a bunch of lap dogs that are more concerned with being liked by the powers in Europe than actually caring about the well being of the country.

First rule of politics – ” never make a promise that can’t be broken”.

“when in Opposition they promise a lot but when they get into Government it is a different matter”

Thankfully, SF haven’t made that mistake yet. They recently pledged not to make any promise they can’t keep. But one key thing will happen: property tax will be abolished in the next election. It will be an issue among the voters. The two mainstream parties more or less want it while SF will abolish it.

Once the property tax is in place, no party will abolish it. They may rename or rebrand it but they will keep it. It is ridiculous that we do not pay directly for local services in this country.

“Once the property tax is in place, no party will abolish it”

Fianna Fail did in 1977 and they rightly won because they listened to the interests of their voters. I personally praise this too. Property tax will be abolished in the next election and it WILL be an election issue.

We have alternatives such as:
A wealth tax, allowing the company tax breaks to expire, a downsizing in the government and a reduction in subsidies to the top 10%. We should be encouraging the top 10% to pay their fair share – their taxes are at a 25 year low.

Thanks, Have a good weekend auld stock. Don’t mind me when the blood starts pumping.

oh and anyone who doesn’t think Sinn fein have all the answers is definitely a troll………….

@ Randy Cecil:
unfortunately – i think the Minister for Finance for our six northeastern counties, is an English Tory.

“yet they are happy with property taxes and cutbacks in Northern Ireland.”

Wrong. Westminster imposed property taxes, not SF.

…of course they did Mark, why didnt they protest then. They seem quite good at it in the Republic, “protesting” at every event known to man…Why didnt they make their concerns known in Westminster?. They have a few MP’s. So answer me this. If Northern Ireland became an independent State in the morning with SF in government, how would they fund themselves. Would they get rid of Property Tax and various other taxes in NI. I think not. They want it all but dont want to make the tough decisions…thankfully the electorate in the Republic can see their through manure….and always will

Sinn Fein agree with property tax in the north because they get free medical, bins and other luxuries in return..this seems to be a great one lately for anti s/f who aren’t well red on both sides and trying to compare two countries with different laws,
what’s next the “they have a different stance on abortion north and south” its different laws English can get a abortion at a whim which sf oppose but in Ireland the wanted it for rape pregnancys etc

The NHS has nothing to do with property tax/council tax/rates in Northern Ireland. Let’s be clear. Local taxes in Northern Ireland fund local taxes including bin collection. I personally think that bin collections/recycling facilities should be included in the Property Tax in the Republic. I agree completely there with you. The SF stance on many issues differ greatly in Northern Ireland and the Republic, they run with the foxes and hounds on many things. Issues that have similar impacts on citizens in both jurisdictions….SF are masters in the art of deceit, they have had plenty of practice.

Are you for real? Most of us paid property tax in the form of stamp duty. We paid it up front and we are still paying interest on that duty.
Property tax in the north is serious value for money, free health care for one, bins,roads, community facilities etc.
We are expected to pay property tax on an asset called the family home, for most of us owe more in mortgage repayments than the home is worth but yet this is considered an asset and owning property? Really?
The fact we went to the expense of buying our own home rather than expecting the government to stump up for housing us should mean we get a tax break instead this government who bailed out the banks with our money are now forcing thousands of people into arrears and defaults so the same banks can reposes our homes.
I don’t think SF have all the answers but I do now know FG / Labour care more about lining their own pockets than the Irish people and this tax is to hand over more billions to bond holders while Irish children starve.

“of course they did Mark, why didnt they protest then”

Patently false: Property taxes were always opposed by SF.

Further, SF were Not in government back in 1990 when the first property tax was introduced.

Ireland does NOT need a property tax, end of story.

Do people down here not know what that the people up north get bins, free health care, water, free school meals and a lot more besides for their property tax.And as for differance in car tax my car 400 euro and 135 sterling so do’nt compare us to Northern Ireland.The Unionists will not have to worry about a united ireland Fine Gale have made sure that will never happen now

so what ‘s your point toorkeel??

FG/Labour constantly refer to the North, to justify what they are doing, & try to blame SF & accuse them of double standards.
unfortunately the Six Counties are still part of the UK, & the taxes there are the same as the rest of the UK.
The ‘Minister for Finance’ is an English Tory..
unfortunately the Union Jack still flies over the North
blame SF for that, too ??

I agree with you Chris. I think if you paid Stamp Duty for a house here between 2000 and 2007, you should be exempt from paying a property tax until and if the reach the value for the amount you paid. The problem is “rates” on houses should never have been gotten rid of in the first place. FF did this to buy an election and of course got elected on the back of it. Councils never fully recovered as a result. I too am a homeowner but fortunately I didn’t have to pay stamp duty as it was gone in 2007.

Mark, if its such a problem for SF in NI why don’t they protest like they do in the ROI to Westminster? NI is well subsidised by the UK Treasury. It has a huge Public Sector, the largest in the UK.
Gussy, I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I’ll answer what I think you’re asking. SF are full of bluster, spouting one thing in NI and something else in ROI. They are devious and cunning and will do what they have to do to achieve their warped aims.

Michael as far as I’m aware, The Minister for Finance is from Limerick. As for you referencing that you no longer wish to see the Union Jack flying in “the six counties”. I hope you’re wrong unless of course its an independent State. We can ill afford taking on a basket case, sectarian State. Also it may surprise you to know that 70% of the population (Catholic and Protestant) of NI wish to remain in the UK. Who could blame them, I know I would if I were in their shoes.

Unfortunate for who?

@ toorkeel:
the six norteastern counties of our country are unfortunately still part of the UK,
& the ‘Minister for Finance’ is an English Tory.

the Union Jack is flown over Belfast City Hall – happily for just 13 days/ year, i think, now
you don’t blame SF too, for the fact that the Irish tricolor isn’t flown over Belfast City Hall, do you ??

you know the excuse FG/Lab & ‘toorkeel’ make -
SF are against the property tax in the 26 Counties, but they support it in the 6 Counties !
just as logical, but equally a lie, for FG/Lab & ‘toorkeel’ to claim -
SF are against the Union Jack in the 26 Counties, but they support it in the 6 Counties.

@ toorkeel:
as for the 6 Counties being “a secterian state” – you are correct.
the borders of the state were carved out on the basis of a secterian headcount, so that there would be a c. 60/40 Protestant, Unionist/Catholic, Nationalist ratio within its borders.
the 26 Counties is merely the remaining part of Ireland.

he is right about one thing thy did break there contract. . . if. your sold something under faults pretence . you demand your money back . . . what’s so different about this .

Will i embarrass you and put up a link of what the Unionists are doing right now up the North today.I wont.They will finally be seen for what they are when the mask slips for good and people will eventually see why Adams and Co were pushed into fighting back by peaceful means first and when that was brutally crushed with no sign of diplomacy by Maggie Thatcher they brought the fight to Britain like the British brought it to Ireland.Now the British have left the biggest threat to Ireland are the enemy within so therefore they must be challenged with a vote of no confidence what is the point otherwise of being in opposition if not to challenge government on behalf of the people who voted for you and people who have not also.

Hi Patrick Lyons, I bet you wouldn’t say that to Gerrys face.

The only people laughing are the bankers, bond holders, and every European government at how easy it is to get billions out of Enda and Gilmore

Why Richard? is he a violent man? someone to be feared?

#O’Reilly- that’s an awful thing to suggest. Next you’ll be saying he lied about being a resident in Louth and that he’s actually from West Belfast. Perish the thought.

They are getting my vote next time round… Im sick of FF/FG/LAB. There all the same only the names change.

Isn’t your brother the FF Nat. Secretary. That seriously undermines your credibility unless you are willing to put distance between yourself and the gang that he is involved in.

No. But the issue remains the same

My apologies Martin. I did not mean to cast any black mark across you or your family by associating you or them in any way with FF or the activities of its members.

Stephen, I dislike FF as much as the next man but you can’t say “Your brother supports X, so you’re not allow an opinion on Y”. That is complete and utter nonsense.

Sorry Martin , could you remind us which party voted against the recent Welfare Bill that was rushed through the regional assemblies by the Tory govenrment and the support of the SDLP , DUP and UUP , without any opportunity for public consultation or consideration ? It might have slipped your selective memory – Sinn Fein .

Go on Eamonn!!!

@Stephen the Fact that Gerry adams has lied through his teeth for years seriously undermines his credibility for many, anyone watching the family of Jean McConville being interviewed the other night. When you see the way that family were treated by all of the republican movement (in particular by Mr. Adams and his Belfast comrades) for decades…….. sickening beyond words

Isn’t that Micheal Martin you are standing beside?

Bertie Ahern’s pet poodle and a friend of Charles Haughey.

I think it is fair to say that you can be taken with a pinch of salt when it comes to economics and in your choice of friends.

You mightn’t like that they put that money in to things that they believe and support, at least they do it. Could you imagine a FG TD coughing up so much money out of their own pocket. FF TD’s feel that they are underpaid as is, being firm believers in topping up with bribes and kickbacks and Lab. are just going to retire en masse so couldn’t care either way.

You mightn’t like them but whether it is going down for a 20 years in jail, and then joining back in the struggle on the day they are released, or giving up most of their salary as TD’s they put their beliefs up front and back them and that is very rare in Ireland.

Stephen, wake up.

Mark. Being shameless about something is different to being open. Lets just say he has all that it takes to be a leader of FF. Personally I wouldn’t trust him to mind bag of skittles for me.

@Stephen, when it comes to being shameless I refer you to my comment above