And ‘they’ have no intention of writing off our existing debt until we show that we can behave responsibly with respect to out balance sheet.

There will be no debt forgiveness from Fritz while our senior civil servants and politicians earn more than theirs.

See, while we were on spending binge and enjoying tax giveaways, the Germans were steadfastly resisting wage pressure and getting competitive. Now we earn more than them and we are asking them to write off the pensions and savings they invested in us.

Fritz knows well that he isn’t getting his money back, but he’s damned if he’s gonna write it off while we’re some of the best paid people in Europe. Do you blame him? He’s lost the money and he wants to repossess some shit before just writing it off.

Ireland’s government is the international equivalent of the wife of a broke developer (Fianna Fail being the ‘estranged’ husband) saying ‘You can’t expect me to live on 1 holiday a year and the kids simply must have a private education’

We get paid more and we get ripped off three times as much. Been to Germany lately? €2.50 a pint etc

Mark our prices are a reflection of our cost base:
1. We’re paid too much
2. Our rents are too high
3. Everything comes in by air or sea
4. Rates are high
5. The expectancy of Irish business owners that low volume high margin is acceptable, when in other cultures they aim for low margin high volume

We can do nothing about 3, 2 is a straight jacket, which only leaves 1 to get competitive with. A reduction in 4 will require cuts in public sector spending. 5, well, what can I say, they won’t take a cut in margin unless they can cut wages.

Regardless, we will not be trusted until we prove we can live within our means again.

Mark Mac.. I have been to Germany lately in fact and for the record….they are no pints for 2.50 in Berlin or Hamburg… Also checked the fuel prices when i was there and funny enough equivalent or higher than ours…
Ronan, excellent comment although you will get no thanks for it on this forum.

Declan, i lived in Berlin for 4 years and yes, pints are most certainly €2.50 – absolutely everywhere mate

@ Too TrueLeft: When exactly did the Government refuse a debate in the Dáil? Other parliaments are ratifying the Treaty through their parliaments (Portugal the week before last). In fact the referendum is to be debated tomorrow in the Seanad I read earlier.

As for avoiding the referendum, we don’t have any precedent for having referenda in this country on issues that don’t affect the Constitution. They didn’t try to avoid a referendum, they instead got legal advice that this Treaty would require a referendum as it would amend our Constitution and now they are having one.

@ Ryan. Other parliaments debated prior to signing. Inda signed and then tried to avoid a referendum. Oh, and as for your comment about precedents for having referenda on issues that don’t affect the constitution….Fine Gael, in their election manifesto, promised in government to seek a mandate from the people re:burning the bondholders. Now…if referenda are only allowed when the constitution is affected, why did fine gael promise to ‘seek a mandate’ when in government for a matter that did not affect the constitution?

Ryan, how did you manage to miss the govt saying that they were trying to frame the treaty so as to avoid a referendum? That was, by their own admission, pretty much their primary goal at negotiations.
Luckily it was decided that a referendum was still required, and considering the EUs failed approach to this crisis so far and the fact that this treaty makes no provision for growth, nor does it prevent the same thing happening all over again (as well as the blackmail clause, the way the all important markets are viewing the EU projects approach, and the immunity granted to a load of unelected officials for this economic terrorism) I cannot in good conscience vote yes.

They are entitled to offer advice to their members. If you don’t want to listen then no one is making you.

I reckon the unions have their own agenda for asking their members to vote No , and it is this…They see how angry ordinary people have become, they see on the ground how they will be effected if ordinary people do not get their support. Austerity will effect the unions and if people do npget their support they will stop paying their subscriptions. Simples… But No is still NO .no matter who says it

high again McTowelie :/

(was referring to South Park, agree with McTowelie)

Agreed!their support may alienate more people than it will encourage.I agree with them for once but I reckon they are being completely disingenuous as usual

mart_n …and what about Siptu telling their members to vote yes …. I an glad the unions have finally come out and supporte the No debate in this Austerity treaty. No all the way .

amen to that. no time for them.

These days any protection workers need is enshrined in law. Unions don’t protect rights, they protect agreements made…

Derek Durkin
I believe you are right and it is time for the ordinary members to take back the unions to the membership . Tell the union leaders what you want them to do or withdraw your subscriptions and form another union or join a union who will work for you . Like the government ,unions need to be reminded who they are working for. Hit them in the pocket they will listen soon enough . We must get tough with all of our public representatives including union leaders. I always had good time for the unions and most rights are enshrined in law . It just depends on how that law is interpreted

Then keep voting no. Eventually they will give up. If the vote is close they will go again. If not there is no point. Dont start believing in eventually this will be passed. Stick to your guns. No means no.

and how many unions have lowered subscription rates since 2008, a time when members are under severe pressure? Have they at any stage made subsistence payments to sticking workers like those in Vita Cortex?
They can have their stimulus package…when they dismantle Croke Park.

The TEEU were present on the picket line outside the Green Isle plant and those men were not only given subsistence payments but the union also delivered boxes of groceries every week. The TEEU does not reperesent public/civil servants, they represent the working man.

@O’Reilly – you are somewhat mistaken in your opinion re workers rights being enshrined in Irish law, if they were then the workers in Vita Cortex would have been paid what they are owed and would not have spent the last several months fighting for what they are rightfully entitled to. Irish workers are the only workers in Europe who have NO legal right to representation by a union.

Leaving out the unions, what are your reasons for voting yes ? Just curious

@ Clive. Appart fro Union’s I do think the idea of balancing the books is good and we don’t ever go mad borrowing again and it is set in stone we have to live within our means. If we are forced to get our debt burden down with the treaty and the quickest way will be to get a write down of the debt agreed by EU members as I don’t think they debt is sustainable long term. It also shows a commitment to the EU project and Euro which is good for Irish businesses and FDI. Look at the job notices lately most are American and the Chinese are expanding interest fast in Ireland. Access to another bailout is something that we should think about as we probably will need it as we cannot continue the way we are with benefits (such as Childrens Allowance without being means tested for example and also Croke Park). The reasons I was thinking no were we need to spend to get our way out of this on capital projects but with no money (if we need bail out 2) we cannot do that and also other countries (Germany and France) broke the previous rules first so why do we have the rules in the first place and also if being honest a no would have also been two fingers to the EU as I do not see it working in a democratic way sometimes with the larger nations bullying their own agenda.

@ Eugene that is the dumbest comment I’ve seen on here. BTW you do realise that union leaders are also elected and noneof them are paid anything like twice that of a TD. The 3 unions memntioned here are in the private sector. Do you realise the private sector is not part of Croke Park? Stop talking utter sh1te and actually learn how trade unions operate.

@Brendan. Some are on over 100Kpa which is greater than a TD. I do not know what Eamon Devoy salary if you do as I assume you are a member as you are defending the Union you should know so maybe publish it here to compare to a TD (again all 166 TD’s). Yes the Croke Park is Public Sector but my point was Unions in general. I may be wrong but was the TEEU looking for pay rises for electricians not so long ago when the construction industry is in tatters. Come up with alternatives instead of the usual “talking sh1te” comment everyone gets who do not agree with left leaning organisations.

Eugene O @Rourke I do not believe you were ever going to vote no . I laughed out loud when i saw that had been going to vote no til the unions came out and then you decided to vote yes …Ha ha . I have been reading your comments for a while now and I never once thought you were a ”nay sayer ” . You just want people to think that to thwart their own decisions.. Go on away with yourself you chancer …Lol ! :) Nice try !

@Susie. On this one I was very undecided, I was seriously considering a NO and previous ones (Nice and Lisbon) was a NO on both occassions and the Irish people were bought with false promises. The problem this time is the EU can go on without Ireland as they do not need us to pass the treaty for member states to continue down the road they wish to go. I think and reading economists reports we will need another bailout so it is for that reason I think a yes is the only option. It is a gun to the head job (on that I will agree with some Unions). I don’t want people to change their mind’s I just put my point accross the same as you and others do on the site, I have never been abusive to people on this site to put my point accross and I have received insults for post’s I have put up. Saying I am a not a “nay sayer” is a bit immature as it depend’s on what the discussion is. There is no point in saying no for no’s sake, give alternatives or come up with solutions. By saying no (or yes) depending on the discussion for the sake of the popular reason is never going to fix anything. (By the way I agree with your comment below in relation to Unions having their own agenda for a No vote).

Eugene O Rourke
I am going to vote no because I am terrified that if we vote yes there will be no turning back . I fear for my children and my yet to be conceived grand children… I believe , truely believe that if we default and tell the EU go take a hike , and we have to then become self reliant and we will rise to the top.
I too have been reading what the economists have been saying and like anything to do with figures and spin they can all be changed to suit your agenda or my agenda …… However I just feel the NO vote is the right way to go . It is like what I said about the unions having their own agenda’s .They (I believe) were playing both sides of the same coin . Now they have to make a stand ,they know which side their bread is buttered . Siptu is the one that will suffer ,they are neither here nor there , them and us .
I will vote no . I accept that there will be austerity ,but if we vote no then we wont have the huge burden of debt on us. We will get loans but the government say we wont need any … That is the blackmail clause … Tho other reason is that I do not believe their promises of more jobs they said that about Lisbon too and here we are 450,000 unemployed ….I do not trust the government and it is really as simple as that . It would be funny if it wasn’t so serious . My answer will continue to be No

Susie. I think that’s the one thing everyone has in common on yes or no side is the fear of the future if the mess is not fixed once and for all and politicians on all sides and countries get on with it instead of worying about getting back into power. They should have the balls to sacrifice their job for their country.

Yep . I reckon you are right there . Every one is terrified. The thing is tho , the government we have here have lied to us non stop. even lied about the caps on salaries for their advisers . I have heard all the arguements and I still say they lied . I voted FG and Lab I will never do so again .They have let me down big time and I bwill never trust any one of them . I will go with my own beliefs and what I have learnt myself . But I guarantee you which ever way we vote and juasty say that the vote goes well and people made the correct decision and the government follow through , we will never see the benefit for years to come yet …

@ Susie. I would be more positive about the future but do not see any real change until 2015 at the earliest. We have to remain positive all the same as we have had some large job announcements so that is a good sign. We have Irish Water coming down the road (and I know its another bill which will make tightened belts burst) but it could mean some plumbers and trades people brought back into the workforce and in turn might change some families fortunes around. If we vote no and we are cut of from EU money then we will have major austerity but that may not be a bad thing as we will be forced as a country to act instead of drip drip drip to the bottom but if that is the case I hope people will be ready for unimaginable cuts (I am not doing scare tactics here just reality) as we may be cut off from funds. Who knows but it will be interesting at the least.

yes it has but if you vote yes we lose the right to dictate our own budgets and we will have unelected bureaucrats from the EU coming in to tell us how to cut and who to ct. It is already happening …. On the other hand If you vote NO , we will be in charge of our own budgets and how our money is spent . We wont have to pay money into dead banks. Under this treaty the government is NOT ALLOWED create jobs .It is all done through private enterprise , that is why the Luas to the airport was cancelled . That is why the motorway to the North was cancelled. Our elected representatives have nothing to do except take orders from Germany /the troika /ESM/ECB/EU. Enough is enough Vote No.

@Susie, We have unelected people coming here at the moment telling us how to run the country thanks to FF and we do not have control of our budget’s as it is. The big problem with the treaty is we do not know what will happen Ireland if we say no but we do know what we get if we vote yes. I think we will have to continue paying money into the banks as that has been agreed and we need agreement from the EU to stop this or get the money financed directly to the banks instead of sovereign debt. No Government creates jobs except for the public service and our public service is large enough as it is, do you want more public service jobs so we will have to be taxed more to pay for them?

The only way to get out of this recession and to prevent it becoming a depression is to create work . , That is not to say we want or need private enterprise . We need jobs , it is time for these overpaid advisors to earn their money and come up with good ideas. But under the agreemet with Europe they can not create jobs or they will incur massive fines. The EU want to create private investment and privatise everything to feed the fat cat corporations . We are all in this together ….No The top 5/6% in this country last year made a profit of 5.7billion euros while we all took our cuts in pay and increases in commodities…. It is morally wrong !

Maybe but they got Croke Park and you have Jack O’Connor on €124Kpa, this is the same man who gives out about politicians pay (all parties) who are on €82Kish pa. Atleast TD’s (again all parties/alliances from FG, Labour, SF, FF, ULA, Independents, others) are representing the whole nation not a select few members.

I have to admit that I have met Eamon Devoy on a couple of occasions (in a social setting) and I know for a fact that he does not back benchmarking and he is of the opinion that it needs to be brought back to the the table if not thrown out the window. Surely it is only the unions that represent the public sector that back it, while the unions that represent the private sector do not endorse it as it is having such a detrimental impact on employment and pay in the private sector.
However as I have been unable to work for the past 10 years, I maybe mistaken and am open to correction.

@ Eugene: What utter rubbish. Not all unions are in Croke Park. There 3 unions are primarily in the private sector and have nothing to do with Croke Park or Jack O’Connor. It’s a complete strawman to bring Jack O’Connor into it. Are you saying he should vote Yes just because Jack O’Connor is paid 112k a year?

@Brendan, Ok well how much is Eamon Devoy’s salary. The O’Connor’s & Begg’s and other’s go on about solidarity etc but how can they when a huge amount of their members or previous members are not working at the moment. The unions sold out years ago to Government and business and do not see Connolly or Larkin in them. They are back mouthing off now for populist reasons as they are afraid of loosing members and ending their gravy train. I outlined the reasons why I will (more than likely vote yes but you just think that is a “load of sh1te” without saying why I should consider changing my mind to vote no. Persuade me to change my mind instead of insulting what I think. You could get further and maybe another NO to the campaign,

“They are back mouthing off now for populist reasons as they are afraid of loosing members”

Eamon Devoy, told me last year, (long before the FCT was brought into existence) that he was completely against the Croke Park agreement and he was of the opinion that the private sector was being sold down the river at the expense of keeping those with jobs for life in those jobs. His representation of workers in the likes of Green Isle and Lufthansa Airmotive is tireless and it would appear that those he represents hold him in high regard and see him as a man of of his word who is not driven by self interest. I get where your coming from re Beggs and O’Connor, but there are always exceptions to the rule just as Patrick McNulty is the exception to the rule when it comes to the U-Turn Labour Party.

Maybe Ann but I am so anti unions for selling out that last number of years as much as I am so annoyed we have let successive Governments get us into this mess. It’s the like the emporers new clothes at times with us as a people. I would disagree with you on Patrcik McNulty as he knew exactly what he was getting involved in as the FG/Labour Government was formed, there was a Programme for Government and he knew what he would have to vote for coming up as a member of Government and at the first hurdle he voted against them. There was no five point plan, Gilmore for Taoiseach, Labour’s Way etc for him to go with. If his convictions where that strong he should have left Labour before being voted in and went with ULA etc

I completely agree with you that McNulty should have switched parties. But I do admire that he has voted against the whip and he seems to be prepared to do so again in the future. I just wish someone could set up a viral poll to sack the Government and have it sent to Kenny & Co before they are entitled to their pensions. They should not be rewarded for the mess they have us in and I am so glad that I have never voted for either party. Sell outs the lot of them.

I can’t tell by your profile pic whether or not you have a beard, but I’ll take your word for it.

leave beards out of this

I Agree Mark breaded folk may be taxed more

Example- you have 2 friends. 1 friend has a 1/2 million morgage, student and car loans and 6 credit cards maxed out to the hilt and is on the dole. The other friend has no morgage no real debts to talk about and is working lets say on minimum wage. Both ask you for a lend of 500 euro where they say they will pay you back in a month. If you could only pick 1 who would you give it to?

To say that if ireland defaults and after that no one would come near us is stupid. They are not coming near us now because our finances are completely maxed out.

We might have to live within our means quicker than we like if this treaty is not passed, which is not bad thing in itself.

We are aswell to vote No.

As it might be the last time that Europe allow the Irish people to vote on anything.

@orion. Normally id agree with you and i will be voting no….but something tells me because of the idiotic cowards we have in goverment we will regrett it.

Tell me Sean, what would you do if you were in charge… Lets hear your policies??

You were going to vote Yes before the unions ever came into it …..
I will vote No and will continue to support the NO vote .

F**k Enda. I’m votong No.