There are many issues around Turkey.
There’s the Northern Cyprus issue, the Armenian Genocide, Article 301, and this..
To be honest I’m not quite sure why they would want to join the EU given all the preconditions, but the EU certainly wants them – I remember President McAleese was championing them a couple of years ago, saying that they would benefit the whole EU financially..

Just as a side note.. Those sorts of murderous ideals are existent in Jewish and Christian scriptures too (It’s a common theme). The entire old testament is littered with orders to “utterly destroy” anyone who was not one of the Children of Israel. And the new testament John 15.6 Jesus says those who do not abide in him should be burned..
It’s not really fair to attribute these things solely to Islam, when they are inherent in all three books, and have been acted upon throughout history. Of course they are there, I do not dispute this. But whether or not they are acted upon depends on how moderate / extreme the individual reading them is.

List one case in the modern era (let’s say since the end of WWII) of a Muslim murdered by a Professing Christian in any EU member state.
Actually, list one instance of a Bible-based threat made against a Muslim by a Christian since the second world war.
Can’t? No you can’t, because you have just argued a completely indefensible point. Remember the bit of the new testament that says “love your enemies”? There are too many references to Jesus exhorting love and not hate to list in this forum.

You are correct. These times have thankfully passed in terms of Christians and Jews, Islam is lagging behind.
You cannot deny that these things exist in all scriptures though.
For the record, there are also bits in Quran about loving your neighbour and living in peace, and Muhammed also tells the people it is not their job to punish the non believers as only Allah may judge them..

Really all of these scriptures contain these vastly contradictory messages. The moderates choose to focus on the positive, and thankfully the Judeo-Christian element of the Abrahamic religions have been moderated over the years – I did not say they hadn’t (although I have spoken to some hard line Christians, but they were American ones and not relevant to Europe). Islam is newer, and it’s people are moderating too. Sadly it’s leaders are yet to follow suit, but we should not tar all Muslims with the same brush by selectively quoting the more dispicable elements of their holy book.

@ Kieran – Eh, ever hear of a little war called the Bosnian war where Orthodox Christian Serbs and Roman Catholic Croats attacked and massacred Bosniak Muslims in their thousands (1992-1995), simply because they wanted independence? I suppose the assaults by Orthodox Christian Serbs on Muslim Kosovars (1998-1999) which lead ultimately to Kosovan independence didn’t really occur either. And Christian Armenians attacking Muslim Azeris (1988-1994).

“professing Christian” Brian
To be honest, all religions are the same to me – man doing whatever he does to earn his way to heaven.
True Christianity teaches, from the Bible, that man can never earn his way to heaven, that salvation is in Christ alone and his vicarious sacrifice.
Those who are “born again” like the fella in Croke Park with his John 3:7 sign, are the Christians I was talking about above.
I’m not saying a born-again Christian is incapable of murder and abuse of his fellow man, but they don’t normally fit the profile of, for example, those Serbian maniacs

Say it plain, Cyril.
You are for religious persecution, I gather?
At least, from your garbled comment, that is what I think you mean

Kieran One of the reasons why I despise religion so much is because it does these things. When I say that we need non evidence based methods to stay out of politics precisely because it leads to injustices like this, I get labelled an agressive Atheist mean spirited who is offending peoples deepest held conviction. You cant have it both ways  If I am a doctor who is telling you smoking 40 cigerettes a day will give you cancer and you say well evidence isnt everything and then you get cancer I will focus most of my sympathies elsewhere. Im not for one second condoning it. But when western powers preach that the Bible and Koran hold wisdom and then Turkish read passages that the infidel will be losers in the afterlife can you really blame these people who honestly believe this book for as they see it protecting the salvation,of the majority of their people from what they see as a threatening soul endangering Christianity? If I really believed my families eternal salvation was at risk maybe I would do the same. Christians say intuition and faith are valid ways of seeing the world if that is true these Muslims pray much harder than you do. They feel in their heart and soul they are right. Further if you believe in god it is extremely arrogant of you to question his plans. He has a plan for Christians and right now that is that Christians for now at least are second class citizens in the middle east. Alternatively you can see this as a man made problem that requires a man made solution and that god if he was to exist doesnt intervene. In that case most militant Christians in the world as well as Muslims who I agree have worse symptoms of religious delusion are all part of the problem. Shortly put religion remains a private matter or else we fight and the most brutal mind control regime wins. Right now Islam is the reigning champion.

On an added note, Cyril, I have presented the Gospel to individual Muslims, (usually Pakistani nationals Iet through my work) on several occasions, and to a man they were polite, friendly and interested. One or two even visited my home and dined with my family and me.
I find it impossible to relate those beautiful people I met to the nut cases on the TV screen with the Kalashnikovs and the hate-filled rhetoric spewing out of them like vomit.
People are people wherever you find them, and we are all guilty of seeing them as masses instead of what they really are – individuals. Each made in the image of God. So says the Scripture

Kieran, I can assure you, you didn’t present the gospel to any Muslim.

Muslims are required to study the Torah, the New Testament and the Quran. Most of them are pretty well versed in all three. They see Abraham as the law maker, who’s laws they must abide by, Moses and Jesus are prophets the same as Mohammed.. A well versed Muslim will be able to discuss any aspect of the bible with you with full respect for its’ message as it makes up a part of their religion too..

In fact, the first few chapters of the Quran are like a rehash of the new testament, with Mohammed criticising those who have taken the teachings of the prophets and twisted them for their own selfish ends (eg corrupt church leaders) just as Jesus did with the Pharisees in the Temple.
It is here Mohammed specifically tells his followers that it is not their place to punish them, as only Allah may judge (sounds similar to some things Jesus said about judgement doesn’t it?)

If he hadn’t a prior knowledge of the bible, then he wasn’t a very well read Muslim, chances are he was being quite polite and letting you present it as he appreciated the message and your offer.. But he should have known it all already, by virtue of being Muslim. I wonder why he did not take this opportunity to explain this aspect of Islam to you, it may have helped you understand the similarities between your faiths. Only when we can understand each other can we move toward peace.

Shanti,

Abraham is the Father of 2 great nations, the Semitic cousins Arabia and Israel (separated by the half brothers Ishmael and Isaac, literal sons of Abraham)
Muslims acknowledge the laws of he old testament, Christians adhere to a new way – the New Testament.

The 613 Laws listed in the Torah were exclusively for the Jews, national Israel, to keep. (although those referring to morality were “written on the heart” for all men to acknowledge or recognise) The commandments to love one another in the NT are for all mankind.

The Gospel does not stand unless one teaches that Jesus Christ is actually the Son of God, and part of the triune Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
The Qu’ran teaches that Allah is one.
Allah and the God of he Bible are not even related. The Qu’ran and the Bible are 2 of the most incompatible books you could imagine.

But they are still required to study the New Testament.
It doesn’t mean that they accept Jesus as the Sun of God, they relegate him to the level of prophet, but they are still required to study all three books. The gospel is nothing new to a Muslim, they just place different emphasis.

Perhaps I should rephrase that in light of your definition of the gospel. The New Testament is nothing new to a Muslim.

I’d broadly agree with you Cyril – perhaps we do get the government we deserve. At least in western countries.

Chinese communism is despicable. The only form of government worse than communism is anarchy, I believe. However, it us my understanding that Christianity is flourishing in China, in underground movements and house churches.

Christianity has always flourished under oppression – from the very beginning, as depicted by Dr Luke in the Acts of the Apostles

I’m not so naive as to think that a man could not be polite in my home and a swine in his own. However, perhaps I just have warm memories of the politeness of my Pakistani guests.

I don’t think Muslims are swine or inherently evil. It is just the degree of delusional dogma and the effectiveness of political Islam as an agent of mind control. In the dark ages the Muslims were a force for progression when compared to the Catholic Church who were burning witches and establishing the crusades. As Shanti said all the religious books contain mostly crazy stuff but Christians do not read it and believe everything in it is about turning the other cheek and loving your neighbour. It is misogynistic, intolerant of other religions in that they will be damned to hell. This is unique to the new testament. No mention of hell in the old testament. The problem is the Islamic nations actually follow these crazy ideals as a legal formula. Until we abandon the belief in childish stories especially when they are so mean and petty we will not have international peace or the best possible societies. Humans have a cognitive system that is not necessarily based on reality. We are evolutionary primed to worship leaders as societies that did this would have a better chance of survival than more individualistic tribes. The problem with our hardware is we believe any nonsense that is told to us by an authority figure. Forget all the other arguments for Atheism mans religiosity is enough to win the argument on its own. For millennia man has been killing sacrificing and torturing his fellow man over ridiculous nonsense. The Abrahamic traditions are just the latest branch of pooh.

The palestinians elected hamas, the usa elected george w, the uk elected blair and browne, the isrealis elected netanyahu.
Out of these 4 examples hamas have instigated far less terror attacks and have murdered far less people. All while being under a far greater threat.
Will you judge the electorate of the uk, isreal and usa as harshly?

Eoin short answer no. while I dislike Tony Blairs conciliatory attitude to religion he has never called for the annihilation of the Islamic world. I was against the War in Iraq but I draw a distinction between dropping bombs on strategic targets than firing rockets into packed city centre locations. While I condemn some of the things Israel have done to compare Netanyahu with Hamas is insane. If Hamas had the military capability of the Israeli regime there would be ethnic cleansing of Jews. Remember these guys have a forgetful memory of the holocaust and its not due to Alzheimer’s. While there are some insane ultra orthodox Jews that would out fanaticise the worst Muslim lunatics, the fact still remains most Israeli Jews fully accept the need for a separate Palestinian State to exist. They just get uptight and aggressive with their neighbours who are living in the Stone age and believe their imaginary friend is commanding them to wipe out their neighbour. If they believe their god has a plan, in the same argument I gave to Kieran, gods plan is that Israel be militarily superior they cant have it both ways. If they believe god is telling them to wipe out Israel and Hamas is after all the party of god live with the consequences. Maybe its just me being an outspoken Atheist but sometimes I get impatient at the whining of religious at the consequences of their own decisions.