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Integration tests are ok, says EU

This came in relation to a case in the Netherlands involving a New Zealand and a United States national.

THE EUROPEAN COURT of Justice has ruled that a requirement for integration can be placed on people migrating into member states from outside the EU.

This relates to individuals who have been resident in a country for five years or more and are applying for long-term resident status.

The ruling was clear however that these tests should be in place to encourage integration and not to punish those who fail to meet their criteria.

It states that member states “are to grant long-term residents status to third-country nationals who have resided legally and continuously within their territory for five years immediately prior to submission of the relevant application.”

The Netherlands

This ruling draws specifically on two cases that occurred in the Netherlands.

These involved a United States national and a New Zealand national, respectively referred to in the ruling as P and S, having had their long-term resident status challenged on the grounds of not having passed the relevant integration requirement.

Both P and S held long-term resident status prior to being asked to take the integration requirement.

While such tests were deemed to be ok – it was made clear that the impact they have on the rights of long-term residents is restricted.

The ruling passed down by Advocate General Maciej Szpunar found that “national provisions which introduce integration measures for a long-term resident come within the scope of EU law.”

The test that P and S were required to take looked at language proficiency and knowledge of Dutch society.

shutterstock_153164816 The European Court of Justice in Luxembourg Shutterstock / Peter Fuchs Shutterstock / Peter Fuchs / Peter Fuchs

Ruling

In the course of the ruling the Advocate General made the point that national provisions that introduce integration measures are within the scope of EU law.

As such, member states are required to comply with the “principle of proportionality” and not to “make it excessively difficult for those with long-term resident status to exercise the rights which they derive from that status”.

This focuses on the punishment that is in place for those who fail to pass the examination. While there is no restriction on the introduction of the integration measures – the fine that is imposed for failing was seen to be disproportionate.

The court stated that they feel any integration examination should “have the exclusive purpose of facilitating the integration of the persons concerned and must not constitute a condition for the maintenance of the status or for the exercise of the rights which flow from it.”

Read: Irish businesses urged to give female staff time off work for cervical screenings

Also: Waiting game: Government still tossing up sale of Aer Lingus stake

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99 Comments
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    Mute Dave J
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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:50 AM

    Delighted to hear. This is much needed.

    But what about tests from states within the EU. There is as much contrast as in cultures between existing member states as there is non member states. For example, I would feel a Canadian is in a better position to integrate here than some ethnic groups hailing from Romania/ Bulgaria.

    Nonetheless a step in the right direction, and I hope that failure of integration tests results in denials of visas etc.

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    Mute Denis Maher
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    Jan 28th 2015, 12:46 PM

    It should be simple
    Q1. Do you have a bank account.
    A1. No. x
    Q2 do you speak fluent English
    A2. No. x
    Q3. Do you have a CV
    A3. No. x
    Q4. Did you take a direct flight here
    A4. No. x
    This is a bankrupt country, you have nothing to offer REJECTED.
    Now now intergration issues can arise.

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    Mute Paudi Onail
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    Jan 28th 2015, 12:58 PM

    its as simple as that indeed.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:22 PM

    I feel like Bertie Ahern wouldn’t do too well in that test

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    Mute Seeking Truth
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:42 PM

    Curious about the “direct” flight issue….are you saying that unless you are from Boston, New York or San Francisco you can’t live here?

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:50 PM

    Denis, do you realise that there’s a difference between immigration and asylum?

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    Mute Jason Culligan
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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:44 PM

    If someone seeks asylum in a country, they should make attempts to integrate regardless of the intended extent of their stay.

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    Mute Exit Stage Left
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:31 PM

    I know lads from cork with no bank account or cv and who can’t speak English

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 2:53 PM

    I lived in The Netherlands for 6 years before I decided to move to Ireland 11 years ago (best decision). I can tell you that The Netherlands as a society is fecked. Ghettos, social problems, crime rates, and it all has one source. Muslim Immigrants. Believe me, I was born in Venezuela, we’re not racists by nature, we are a nation made of immigrants including Muslims immigrants. But facts are facts, 80% of prison inmates are from Moroccan or Turkish descent. That’s not a typo, I didn’t mean to say 8%, I meant to say 80%.

    They don’t respect anyone who is non Muslim, they hate the Dutch and they are officially Dutch. children telling their female teachers that they are whor*s because they don’t wear a head garment, etc, etc etc, I lived it. Ask ANY person who lived in The Netherlands.

    This could be Ireland in 20 years if nothing is done, mark my words

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    Mute Ian Treacy
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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:32 PM

    I agree 100% with you. London is worse . Ireland will turn out the same if something is not done now. Fook the EU and their integration policies i dont care if I’m called a racist for it

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:41 PM

    Statistics show that 23.2% of the prison population is foreign, but I can find no further break down of the figures in terms of ethnicity. Where did you get the figure of 80?
    8 prisons were set for closure in the Netherlands in 2013 because of a lack of prisoners. Crime rates and real figures of crime have been falling there every year since 2004.

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:03 PM

    Free Gaza, I don;t make stuff up. That 80% figure is from the mouth of the police Sargent who questioned me about a hit and run crime a Dutch-Moroccan did towards me when I was cycling on the bicycle lane in Amsterdam and this guy hit me from behind, I felt intermediately, I was bleeding on the street, the ambulance and police came. The guy hit the pedal and disappeared but a lot of people took his registration and saw his face, he was given a suspended sentence and I also won a civil case against him. The police gave me that figure, also, every Dutch person knows this fact. Opposition politicians uses this fact and it has been never denied.

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    Mute Red Marauder
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:08 PM

    @Juan

    I just would like to clear up something , in a previous post you mentioned you lived in Ireland since you were a teenager , here you write you lived in the Netherlands for 6 years, can you explain that?
    Would this mean you lived in the Netherlands before your teens and then moved to Ireland? At that age it would
    be more a decision your parents took to move here or do I see this wrong? So 17 years ago you were in The Netherlands , that is in the year 1998 if correct so before 9/11 and before Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn.

    __thejournal.ie/yezidi-islamic-state-1849006-Dec2014/?utm_source=shortlink___

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:15 PM

    @Red Marauder

    Correct, I arrived in the Netherlands when I was 19 (nineteen is still a teenager). I moved alone with 4 other band mates to play music. I come from a middle class family and I decided to leave even knowing that I had my life set up with education, money and contacts fro a good job. I didn’t feel identified with the Venezuelan culture. I arrived in Amsterdam cleaning toilets, working in flea markets. lifting boxes and working my way up. I myself paid for my third level education and I have now my own business distributing IT electronics to manufacturers across Europe. I was there when they killed Pim Fortuyn but I was already in Ireland when they killed Theo Van Gogh..

    And your point is?

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:22 PM

    Juan, I never ever accused you of making anything up. I asked you a question about where you got that figure because I can’t find it myself. But now that you’ve given your source, just to clarify, that isn’t an official statistic is it? And if it was it isn’t an up to date one, is it?

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:27 PM

    Who are “they” Juan?

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:48 PM

    Mort, only 2% of the Netherlands’ population is Indonesia, and for people to immigrate for family reunification they need to have a Dutch partner with sufficient income

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    Mute Jason Culligan
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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:50 PM

    I currently live in the Netherlands and I must state the issue is over exaggerated here on the Journal. There are certain areas here in Rotterdam which are of course not the safest areas (every city has them) but I currently live in an area where there’s a vast mix of nationalities without any issue.

    The Indonesian groups here are incredibly integrated (I should know, my girlfriend is Dutch/Indonesian) and it was my girlfriend’s Indonesian mother who pushed me hard to learn Dutch in the first place. There are issues with Turks and Moroccans but these are local rather than ethnic issues.

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:23 PM

    Jason, as per your own words “There are certain areas here in Rotterdam which are of course not the safest areas (every city has them) ”
    No, no city should have unsafe areas due to ethnic ghettos.

    “There are issues with Turks and Moroccans but these are local rather than ethnic issues.”
    Who killed Theo Van Gogh? A Dutch-Morroccan. Whose Jail inmates makes the most population? Moroccans and Turkish descendants. Whose father raised a child in a class where a primary school teacher friend of mine told her that “she doesn’t have to listen to her because she s not muslim, as well as other cases her colleagues had to face? Dutch-Morroccan.

    If this is just a “local” issue, I don’t know what qualifies them as ethnic.

    So everything is honkey dories in The Netherlands with the muslim population right?

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    Mute Jason Culligan
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:32 PM

    “Whose Jail inmates makes the most population? Moroccans and Turkish descendants.”

    You were provided with statistics which discredited your point and the only evidence you could provide was an off-the-cuff statement which can’t be verified.

    “No, no city should have unsafe areas due to ethnic ghettos.”

    The no-go areas of Rotterdam are hardly ethnic ghettos, do you have any statistics at all to base any of your claims about the Netherlands are or are you basing everything on prejudices built up 11 years ago?

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:32 PM

    Where’s the actual evidence that there are areas that are unsafe because of the ethnicity of people living there?

    Where’s the actually statistics that 80% of the prison population are Moroccans and Turks. All of your “evidence” and “examples” are personal ones that can’t be verified.

    When are you going to answer my questions Juan?

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:35 PM

    Free Gaza, I don’t have the batch number of the police officer who told me that and I don’t have recorded the countless declaration politicians makes to back that up, but I trust the word of a Dutch Police Sergant.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:39 PM

    I’m not asking you to prove who the police officer was, I’m asking you to provide some actually reliable & verifiable statistics. I have asked you various questions and the best you can come up with is an answer to a question that I never asked. Why is this so hard for you?

    Let’s try this again: what the police officer said to you wasn’t an official statistic was it? And if it was, it no isn’t up to dat, is it?

    In an earlier comment you said that “they” killed fortuyn and Van Gogh. I’ll ask this question again, who are “they”

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:40 PM

    What about my question about these ghettos? Why are you ignoring my questions?

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    Mute Red Marauder
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:40 PM

    My point is you came to Europe as a 19 year old , not speaking Dutch “I assume” , with no further skills apart from playing Music and yet you are against this same type of Emigration?
    Somehow you got a Visa or MVV as it is called to remain in The Netherlands? That you get only when you marry a dutch person or one of the parents is dutch but not on the fly. How did you manage this?

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    Mute Jason Culligan
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:50 PM

    The real reason why he doesn’t have the numbers, Free Gaza, is because they don’t exist. The Netherlands doesn’t even record prisoners by ethnicity, only by location of birth.

    One thing they do record, Juan, is that up to 25% of all inmates have a mental disability. Does this mean in your mind that the Netherlands also suffers from mental illness ghettos?

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:51 PM

    Red Marauder, wrong, I also have a Spanish passport, My grandparents are Spanish born. I am European by blood and a Westerner by nature. I oppose to any type of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic countries.

    Free Gaza, I already answered, I don’t have any sources or data, I just know it because I know it, ask Jason Culligan who’s living there to investigate the exact figures from the Dienst Justitiële Inrichtingen. But you can’t deny the undeniable. Most prison inmates both by numbers and by percentage of ethnicity are Moroccans and Turkish descendants, and stop being a child asking me to answer a question I have already asked, if you want to challenge it, get a fact and post it and prove me wrong.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:58 PM

    No, Juan, you have not answered my questions even after me pestering you for them. Why are you not answering them? I even listed them for you. You just know? You know because some random cop told you? I’m not denying it I’m just saying there’s no evidence to back it up? Clearly in your mind that’s the same thing though. I already did challenge your statement and I provided the only statistic about foreigners in prisons that the Dutch provide. Why can’t you accept that? It isn’t undeniable if there’s no evidence to support it.

    Are you claiming it’s childish to ask for evidence to be provided and for questions to be answered? The only question you answered was on that I didn’t ask

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    Mute Jason Culligan
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    Jan 28th 2015, 7:16 PM

    I already pointed it out Juan that the government simply doesn’t keep that record so it is impossible to know. They only record place of birth, of which 22% of the prison population was born in another country. Any prison inmate born in the Netherlands will be recorded under “Geboorteplaats: Nederland” in the statistics regardless of ethnicity.

    The 80% figure wasn’t from the mouth of a police officer, it was from another one of his orifices.

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    Mute Red Marauder
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    Jan 28th 2015, 7:27 PM

    Fair enough , but you could have mentioned this before instead by giving an impression that you are from Venezuela but you are both Spanish and from Venezuela. I agree with chaps here , a police officer is not in charge of National statistic , besides it was more than 11 years ago and you were hit from behind.

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    Mute Jay McGregor
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    Jan 28th 2015, 10:11 PM

    A lot of Dutch prisons only serve halal meats. Would that not be due to the prisoners religous dietarg requirements? After all, halal meat is more expensive.

    “Many Dutch prisons now serve only Halal meat to the inmates. The country’s justice ministry has concluded contracts in which the suppliers only provide halal food. Having two different menus was found too expensive. Prisoners are as a result no longer given any pork and only ritually-slaughtered beef or lamb, according to De Telegraaf.”

    http://www.halal.com/main.php?do=homenews&action=view&newsid=910

    They may not release statistics on the prisoners ethnic or religous backgrounds, but things like the serving of only halal meats, do add some substance to Juans claims.

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    Mute Archangel72
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    Jan 28th 2015, 10:35 PM

    The item is incorrect. It states that immigrants from outside the EU can be asked to do a test. Immigrants that are in Holland over 5 years never have to do one of these tests.

    Holland is fecked, for sure. I’m Dutch and the integration of the Muslim community is at its worst. We took in Turkish labour in the 60s/70s because the Dutch refused to do the shit jobs. The Turks overall are well integrated. The Moroccan society shits on the Dutch and the values they stand for. They make up the largest community in jail. They are involved the worst crime in the country, travel to the Middle East and more shit is coming.
    The Dutch have been to lenient to foreigners and dug their own grave. Governments need to really think about integrating from within the EU and for sure from outside the EU. And western people tend to integrate much better than people from the Middle East or Asia.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 10:42 PM

    Well, it could just indicate that there is a significant number of people requesting halal meat in those prisons, and instead of serving both halal and non-halal versions of the same meal they’ve decided to just serve halal meals as that would cater to everyone. Your link doesn’t provide any figures, and also goes on to say that pork will be served for those who want it.

    It’s also possible that these Dutch prisons now only serving halal meat, which that link suggests isn’t entirely true, could be the 4 facilities for “illegal aliens”

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 10:43 PM

    Archangel, where are you and Juan getting the figures for ethnicity of prisoners from? Those statistics simply do not exist

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:21 PM

    Here’s your fact. 55% of Dutch-Morroccans have been arrested. I am just talking about Moroccans, then you have the Turkish, Algerians and other African descendant with significant presence in The Netherlands. 90% are re-offenders. So my figure of 80% of Moroccan and Turkish descendant is pretty close

    http://www.leugens.nl/2010/03/14/antilliaanse-en-marokkaanse-criminaliteit/

    Add to the 55% this percentage of Turkish and Moroccan Nationals who are not legally Dutch as The Netherlands does not recognise dual nationality.

    http://www.republiekallochtonie.nl/dossier-allochtonen-criminaliteit-en-cultuur

    That was just 5 minutes of Googling. Live there specially in Amsterdam and we’ll talk

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:24 PM

    Free Gaza, for gods sake, Archangel72 IS DUTCH, get it through your head, you don’t like the truth but it is the truth, deal with it, you have no arguments, you;re just trolling for the sake of trolling. Take a plane and spend a summer working in Amsterdam and then we’ll talk

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:54 PM

    Well that’s all in Dutch so it’s obviously not going to come up in my google searches. From what I understand your link says 55% of Moroccan youths in the Netherlands have come into contact with the police on SUSPICION of a crime.

    None of that supports your claim of 80%

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:55 PM

    I do have arguments, you’re the one failing to provide any evidence to support your claim. You’re the one repeatedly failing to answer my questions

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:56 PM

    I don’t need to spend time in Amsterdam to be able to look at statistics, do I?

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    Mute The Peasant™
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    Jan 29th 2015, 12:02 AM

    Juan is the winner.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 29th 2015, 12:05 AM

    How? Because he’s refused to back up his statements and answer questions? If that’s criteria for winning then I agree

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 29th 2015, 12:32 AM

    These are the questions you didn’t answer:
    Of the figure given to you by that police officer, that can’t be verified, were true then, they aren’t up to date no, are they?

    Who are the “they” you referred to when talking about the murder of Fortuyn and Van Gogh?

    Where are the statistics about supposed getthos that are dangerous because of the ethnicity of people living there?

    This has nothing to do with my age or how much I’ve travelled (which is actually quite a bit). How can you call me a bully for looking for answers to my questions and for evidence to back up your own personal statements, when you’re the one who said it’s childish to ask for those things, when you’re the one who makes personal jabs at me instead of actually addressing the contents of what I’ve said? That is much more like bullying than asking for evidence. I know many Muslims who would vote yes in the referendum on same-sex marriage, so quit it with the broad statements about followers of Islam.

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    Mute Jay McGregor
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    Jan 28th 2015, 1:04 PM

    There are 20 million unemployed EU residents. Here’s my integration test.

    Do you have skills that our labour market lacks or are you an entrepreneur that will help the economy and help create jobs?

    No – no room at the inn.

    Yes – continue on to the next question.

    Do you have religous beliefs or cultural practices that go against Irish/European values?

    Yes – no room at the inn.

    No – welcome aboard.

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    Mute Ryan Ash
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    Jan 28th 2015, 1:53 PM

    Actually it is higher… Eurostat estimates that 24.423 million men and women in the EU-28 were unemployed in November 2014.

    That doesn’t mean that they all want to or will immigrate to Ireland though…

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:24 PM

    Christianity also goes against most modern liberal European values, or at least has proven to do so in the past, and there are also three Muslim majority countries in Europe itself, should they not be allowed to enter too? What if people follow pagan religions?

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    Mute Scipio
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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:19 PM

    ‘three Muslim majority countries’ A complete and utter fallacy.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:23 PM

    So Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina don’t exist? Or is it that the Muslims in those countries aren’t really Muslim and are actually just lying about their religion?

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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:37 PM

    That spaceship is waiting for you.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:44 PM

    A majority of states worldwide you say? Well, 56% of UN members, 82% of EU members, 86% of NATO members, and 60% of OIC members recognise Kosovo. But I said country not state.

    Yes, Bosnia-Herzegovina has a Muslim plurality, not an outright majority.

    Albania has almost 60% of its population classifying themselves as Muslim how much their religious beliefs impact on their lives doesn’t mean they’re not Muslim.

    I never called any of these countries “Muslim countries”
    Is this a bit like how you insist Lebanon isn’t a “Muslim country” (I only use that term because you insist on using it) even though it has a Muslim majority?

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    Mute Pat Kavanagh
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    Jan 28th 2015, 12:15 PM

    “these tests should be in place to encourage integration and not to punish those who fail to meet their criteria.”

    So they’re basically useless then…
    So a person can come in with their family from whatever country with a totally alien culture, and just simply choose never to integrate, never to speak the host nations language, never involve themselves with their new community and stay in their ghetto-ised communities just like they’ve been doing for decades in France, Germany, Sweden and Britain. This ruling changes nothing it seems.

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    Mute Paudi Onail
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    Jan 28th 2015, 12:57 PM

    of course its useless and a waste of time and money, whats the point? theres no integration, you can’t force the horse to drink.

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    Mute Desmond Molloy
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    Jan 28th 2015, 12:52 PM

    Can you stay up on the surfboard after 15 pints of stout?

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    Jan 28th 2015, 1:30 PM

    The full list of things on things in the Ratlin Bog.

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    Mute Dennis Collins
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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:45 PM

    Here in Sweden they basically give citizenship away. People come here, get it, and then a lot of them move on to the UK once they have EU citizenship.

    Coming up to the European elections, I answered a 30 question online quiz thinking it would give me an idea who to vote for. It gives an analysis after and all. On the basis of answering two questions saying that I believe non-EU immigration should be controlled (I said slightly agree as I think some should be allowed) and saying I strongly agree to all citizenship applications requiring a proficiency test in Swedish, on the basis of those two questions alone out of 30 according to the analysis, I should have voted for the far-right Sweden Democrats. My views were apparently incompatible with all other political parties in this country. I consider myself as most definitely left-wing and, without a shadow of a doubt, liberal. But the way things are in this country, I’m apparently slightly racist. This despite the fact that I’m an immigrant myself who struggles in Swedish. I just felt that if I will not be able to speak the language of this country after five years, then I don’t deserve citizenship. It’s fairly cheeky to apply for it if you cannot.

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    Mute Free Gaza
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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:37 PM

    The swedes aren’t a race

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    Mute Jason
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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:33 PM

    Free Gaza, I disagree with you on most things but swedes not being a race is a top comment and how it attracts red thumbs is beyond me.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:36 PM

    I have a feeling that they didn’t actually read my comment

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    Mute James Roberts
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    Jan 28th 2015, 7:54 PM

    Well it depends on how you define ‘race’ but Scandinavians (excluding Finns) are a distinct ethnic group. You can tell that by just looking at them (especially Northern Swedes) and of course from DNA.

    Incidentally, the Icelandic population is made up of from mostly Scandinavians men and Irish women. The theory is that the vikings stopped off in Ireland on the way to Iceland to pick up a wife (whether voluntary or not, we’ll never know). This is all known from DNA tests which I only discovered in the Iceland history museum in Reykjavik

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    Jan 28th 2015, 8:02 PM

    It doesn’t depend on your definition of race. Swedish is a nationality, not even an ethnicity, and certainly not a race. Your rationalisation for why swedes might be considered a separate race is based on Scandinavians, not swedes

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    Jan 28th 2015, 8:17 PM

    I said Scandinavians. They’re a Nordic race if you want. The Finns are Uralic…

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    Jan 28th 2015, 8:28 PM

    James, I know you said Scandinavian, that’s why I said that your rationalisation is based on scandinavian ethnicity, the problem with that being that the issue is whether or not Swedish is a race. Do you want to address that? Or do you just want to repeat what has already been said?

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    Jan 28th 2015, 8:43 PM

    I’d agree with wikipedia: “Swedes (Swedish: svenskar) are a nation and ethnic group native to Sweden, mostly inhabiting Sweden and the other Nordic countries, with descendants living in a number of countries.”

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    Jan 28th 2015, 8:57 PM

    And yet genetically swedes are pretty much identical to Germans, Danes, Norwegians, Icelanders etc. They’re not a separate ethnic group. Now are you going to address the issue of race or not?

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    Jan 28th 2015, 1:05 PM

    Seems entirely sensible that Naturalisation should only be granted if the person is fluent in English or Irish.

    Someone cannot integrate if they can’t speak the language.

    We should also have some test like in the US, and the person should have a knowledge of Irish history etc.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 2:44 PM

    100% agreed, I took the time to learn it, and it was my pleasure, not a forced task, but this should be the norm.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:26 PM

    I agree about having a language test, they should be able to speak English somewhat fluently, but a history test is ridiculous as many Irish people wouldn’t even be able to pass that, as it is in the USA, and it’s in no way relevant to integration.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:40 PM

    Free Gaza, We are where we are thanks to actions from the past and we learn from the mistakes and accomplishments of the past this is history and it should be learned. Not knowing the reason behind a law is mediocre.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:44 PM

    I’m sure knowing about George Washington and the number of Stars and Stripes on the flag tells people a lot about why rape is illegal and homosexuality isn’t. History is important (I personally love it), that’s why it’s taught in school, but surely if the issue is understanding the laws then shouldn’t a test on the basics of our laws make more sense than a general Irish history test?

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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:46 PM

    History tests are a bit dodgy alright. But if you had a test of news and current affairs, I can tell you that most locals don’t know who the current Minister of (whatever) is so it would be interesting to figure out what questions should go on this test. As a naturalised Irish citizen I’m trying to figure out what’s actually relevant for someone like myself to be tested on to live here.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 5:57 PM

    The Dutch don’t expect full-blown knowledge of history in these tests. They merely expect the participants to know enough about the highlights of Dutch history. It would be like a test on Irish history expecting immigrants to know about events like the 1916 Rising and less about knowing the intricacies of living in Ireland in 2,000BC.

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    Mute Wendy Lyon
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    Jan 28th 2015, 12:14 PM

    The European Court of Justice hasn’t ruled anything yet. This is an opinion of an Advocate General, which is influential but non-binding on the Court.

    Ireland has an opt-out to the relevant Directive, anyway.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 1:06 PM

    We don’t have an integration test. Hell, we don’t ask citizenship applicants to undergo language proficiency exams or to take a citizenship test like each and every other EU member state.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 3:25 PM

    We don’t even get Irish people to take language proficiency tests when it comes to English or Irish, it’s badly needed

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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:19 PM

    What do you mean by “we”? In your home city of Birmingham?

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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:28 PM

    We as in the Irish, in Ireland

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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:01 PM

    “We don’t even get Irish people to take language proficiency tests when it comes to English or Irish, it’s badly needed”

    It’s called Junior and Leaving certificate English and at least one is a mandatory exam.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:08 PM

    I’m talking about requirements for residency and citizenship. And you can pass in those subjects without spoken fluency

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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:39 PM

    “I’m talking about requirements for residency and citizenship. And you can pass in those subjects without spoken fluency”

    Growing up in Ireland to Irish parents, in an Irish school with Irish friends gives you more insights into Irish culture and common spoken language than any possible test could examine. There is no practical method of testing Irish people, let alone revoking their citizenship should they fail.

    Non-nationals, on the other hand, are easier to test as a decent grasp of English after 5 years should be easily achievable if the person has attempted to mingle and learn in their time in the country. If they know already before entering the country then all the better.

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    Jan 28th 2015, 6:43 PM

    I’m talking about language, not culture. At no point did I mention culture. Why should immigrants be held to a higher standard with language than Irish people? I struggle to understand many people because their standard of education in Ireland has been so terrible. You can pass exams without good spoken English or Irish, so how is that sufficient? I agree that for purposes of immigration and citizenship people should have a certain level of fluency in English at least, but I also think that people already here should be held to the same standard throughout their lives

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    Jan 28th 2015, 11:46 AM

    3,2,1 Racist!

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    Jan 28th 2015, 1:01 PM

    3,2,1 Idiot!

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    Jan 28th 2015, 4:51 PM

    The best ways to integrate (in my opinion) is to get involved in the school’s Parents Association (if you have kids of course)….sign up for Community Education classes…go to your local Volunteer Centre and ask how you can get involved…spend some time at the local library and attend classes, book clubs and groups…watch the news and read the comments in The Journal LOL, listen to the news, sign petitions, and make sure that you try to speak the language and get to know your neighbours. And go to a few local table quizzes and if you can answer half the questions you’re probably doing alright. People who do this tend to be “more Irish than the Irish” (or whatever country you are trying to integrate into) and it will make for a much more enjoyable, peaceful and helpful situation all the way around.

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