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LAST WEEK, THE Criminal Justice (Victims of Crime) Act 2017 was signed into law. For victims of domestic violence, it is a milestone piece of legislation that will help make their passage through our courts and justice system easier.
But the Act will be a completely missed opportunity to fully acknowledge the pernicious and controlling nature of domestic violence as a dangerous and always life threatening crime if the government doesn’t follow it with the inclusion of the offence of coercive control in the upcoming Domestic Violence Bill.
Sarah Hines and Alicia Brough
It’s not a coincidence that we are making this call today. 15 November marks the anniversary of the murder of four innocent victims, Sarah Hines and her friend Alicia Brough, and Sarah’s two children Reece (3) and Amy (5 months).
On 15 November 2010, they were stabbed by John Geary, Sarah’s former partner. We have worked closely with Alicia’s mother Maria Dempsey over many years and we know from her that John Geary’s behaviour that day was not spontaneous. He had a history of controlling, intimidating behaviour. That was why her daughter Alicia was living with her best friend, to help her and to support her against his threats and abuse.
Maria always contends that if John Geary’s pattern of controlling and obsessive behaviour had not been confined to a domestic setting, it may not have resulted in the murder of four people.
And Maria is right. Because in intimate partner relationships, we know that murder can be the final fatal act of an abuser’s controlling tyranny.
Years of insidious control
Domestic homicide reviews in the UK have shown that in a staggering 92% of the reviewed cases of women who were murdered, there was evidence of years and often decades of insidious control, obsession, threats, isolation and intimidation. If we had similar research here, we would probably find the same correlation. Anecdotally we already know the answer.
Coercive control describes this pattern of sustained emotional and psychological abuse of an intimate partner. It can include threats, intimidation, control and restrictions of liberty. It can also include physical and sexual violence, which are often used as tools by abusers to exert further control and fear.
As one women who worked with us for our groundbreaking Lawlessness of the Home research told us about the sexual violence she had endured for years:
If I didn’t do what he wanted me to do, myself and the kids would suffer the consequences. He’d get into really bad form and start fighting and hitting us, so I sort of went that way, just to keep me and my kids safe.
Coercive control knows no bounds
Coercive control knows no bounds. Abusers tightly control house finances, allowing women to shop with the bankcard but then taking it back, checking the restricted family groceries and punishing if there’s a penny missing.
They restrict the petrol in the car so that women can’t drive beyond a set, isolating radius. They check phone logs, text messages, insert tracking and microphone devices into mobiles.
They rule the house as tyrannies of order and routine – what time the dinner is served at, how the cutlery is set, what time the children go to bed, switching on the heat or spontaneously inviting a child’s friend to the house after school – are time-bombs for the threat of violent explosion.
And yet, coercive control is regarded as the “soft” form of domestic abuse. It doesn’t always leave bruises. It doesn’t always result in broken bones. It’s not a proper offence.
But the women we work with tell us everyday that the emotional and psychological abuse they have endured is actually the greatest threat to their physical and mental health, and their safety.
A glaring gap
So, while the enactment of the Victims of Crime Act last week is hugely welcome, we feel that there will be a glaring gap in the recognition of the most dangerous threat of domestic violence if the government continues to prevaricate on including coercive control as a specific offence in the long awaited domestic violence legislation.
If the DV Bill 2017 continues to ignore coercive control, it will completely disconnect the hanging damocles of murder for women and children from the pernicious risk factor that exists for that fatal end.
In Ireland, we have a moment in time opportunity to do the right thing – to put in place strong domestic violence legislation that really works for women and children, that responds to their lived terror, that provides them with a way to be believed, that joins the dots at last between insidious control and fatal violence.
We have started that with a strong Victims of Crime Act. But, the next step now is to ensure is that our Domestic Violence legislation is fit for purpose.
Sharon O’Halloran is CEO of SAFE Ireland, the national social change agency working to make Ireland the safest country in the world for women and children.
Another man bashing article. Whats new
@oh i dunno: of course men are victims too but this article is about dv against women .do you not think that this particular article about control against women deserves some man bashing ?
@oh i dunno: Ignores the statistics, has a little cry for poor men who beat women, classy.
@Blarneykite: you know that the vast majority of people who end up being hospitalised because the abuse they suffer are women who’ve been put in there by the fists of a man?
You know that the vast majority of people who are murdered by their partner are women, and often their children?
How dare you even act like women and men suffer equally and this deserve equal resources. You’re muddying the waters so that people just stop caring about women.
If you truly were so bothered by this you’d get up off your backside and do something about it instead of taking every chance you get to dump on women’s resources.
@Veronica:
If you apply your logic to mental health and suicide, men are far more likely to suffer. However, resources are there for everyone who needs them and rightly so.
People just want men to have somewhere to turn to if they suffer abuse.
Abuse towards anyone is unacceptable and yes we should talk about it but we should discuss than anyone can be an abuser and anyone can suffer abuse regardless of gender.
@oh i dunno:
Total lack of empathy. Why? Did you not read that a year ago today a mom and her two kids were murdered? Do you not think how her mother or father would feel seeing that you dismissed their daughters and grandchildren’s murders as man bashing???
I’m sorry you lack human compassion and empathy for the world is lost without it.
@Veronica: That isn’t true. The vast majority of victims of violence are men. The majority of victims of serious DOMESTIC violence are women.
@Veronica: Did you know if there are men articles on here the women on here never say ” but what ablut the women ?” They never engage in this type of deflection and whataboutry. The truth is it’s the same few men saying it over and over. They want to ignore completely that there are basis in fact for all these articles and that there are woman and children terrorised and beaten by a certain group of violent men. They also completely ignore the fact that a proportion of these children who are abused in this way are in fact boys. That this legislation is in fact protecting those boys and ensuring that little boys actually get a chance to grow into men unlike little Reece named in the article and his little sister Amy. Thats actually protecting boys as well as girls. This legislation will protect family members of all abusers. As usual most men on here don’t see this as man bashing. To them this is not about that because they can’t relate. They see sick evil infividuals who make their partners and childrens lives hell with their abusive levels of control.
@Ben McArthur: sure, but who’s being violent towards men? It’s almost always males. Males beat and kill women, and they beat and kill other men. It’s a massive problem for society and in particular at risk individuals.
@Catherine Sims: you’re totally right. Of course this will help men and boys too, but the usual crowd seem to get blind with rage whenever women are mentioned and automatically are against any initiative aimed at bettering life for women.
There’s not a single article that mentions women that these guys aren’t bleating about men on. Not one.
@Veronica: So your argument is that although men are more likely to be victims of violence, they shouldn’t get more resources because the perpetrators are usually other men? Is this some sort of collective responsibility?
@Catherine Sims:
What articles are ever published on this site promoting men’s issues????
@oh i dunno: man bashing is the best you could come up with when reading about domestic violence? Can you please send a screenshot of that to your mother so she can knock some sense into you
@gjpb: There was one on here a few days ago and there was none of the nonsense that you carry on with by women. I was going to comment on the article to highlight that but I didn’t. I wanted to respect the make authors experience. You are just blind to any article that doesn’t suit your own agenda.
@Catherine Sims: can you tell me what the article was about?
@Veronica: And if you were so concerned about equality between the sexes you’d put that into practice, instead what we have it saying one thing while doing something quite different. Women’s groups and their representatives have made lucratitive careers out of the entire ‘inequality thing’, they can’t be seen to let it go now or they can say good bye to their gravy train. For this reason when it comes to State grants etc. over 95% goes to womens groups with a few % to mens groups while every study shows that both are approximately equally capable of being violent towards one another.
This article alone demonstrates that mental violence is itself a form of DV but illustrates men as being the only ones who can be violent, not women. Which is another lie. If women wish to sit down with men and address these issues reasonably and fairly they’d find the vast majority would agree with them, we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet, none of us like those who are violent or abuseive against anyone.
But before we begin that conversation let’s just stop the pretense that this is an equal world, it isn’t. If you want to claim equality then first address the issue of the grants imbalance, address the dreadfull Family Courts imbalance and the lies about pay inequality that nobody can quite identify. When all these things are addressed the world will be a little more balanced.
I’m sure people like Veronica will say men kill women. She also says all men are potential rapists, something I personally find repulsive. If I were to say all women are potential ‘ladies of the night’ it would be equally insulting, and wrong.
@oh i dunno: No the reverse…a lot of women are in trouble with this one. They love to be in control in the home.
@oh i dunno: why don’t you f off. I cried throughout this article because this was MY life, with the odd strangling thrown in.
It’s not a “man bashing” article, the same laws will apply to women who terrorise their male partners/husbands like this. It simply is a sad fact of life that that the majority of abuse is male on female, although the female on male abuse needs to be wider accepted and more refuges are needed. Especially outside of the dublin region where there is practically no places for men to quickly get away from their abuser.
But STOP calling these articles man bashings. If the majority of abuse was done female on male then articles would be written accordingly, and you know it. So just stop it.
@oh i dunno: Unless you’re one of those abusers and you just don’t like reading the truth about your own behaviour… I doubt and sincerely hope that’s not the case though…
@Lilly Passet-De Nais: Unfortunately for the vast majority of men reading articles like this, day after day, and comments describing them as ‘potential rapists’ IS man bashing.
The truth is approximately the levels of domestic violence are carried by women against men, but there are NO shelters for men, in or out of Dublin. The only help for men is through Amen, if they somehow have kids with them, which is unlikely, there is nowhere for them to go. There are no shelters anywhere. It’s that simple.
The only time the Irish Family Court system was examined in detail was by Dr. Roisin O’Shea for her PhD thesis, what she discovered shocked her. In 95% of cases the primamry carer was the mother, in 100% of cases where access was unilaterly withdrawn it was done by the mother. In no case was a mother sanctioned for this or breach of court orders. 100% of maintenance orders were made in favour of the wife, yet when the husband was the primary carer no application for maintenance came from the wife. So you see, men have just cause to feel offended.
@Jed I. Knight: I agree with you 100% that we need refuges for men, whether he has kids in tow or not, in every county.
I must correct you on the second part of your comment though. Because I needed to go into a psychiatric unit for 6 weeks due to clinical depression and feeling suicidal because of what had gone on in my life, the father of my kids is their primary caregiver. From the moment I went into hospital he began a reign of terror on both the children and my doctors, telling them things that were complete lies. He convinced my kids that I was going to take them with me and kill them first and then kill me! That was within ONE WEEK of going into hospital.
@Lilly Passet-De Nais: I had no idea this was going on until my mother was asked to come to a family consultation (as was my husband). He invited her home for tea and the kids told her what I might do to them! She left in tears. When I phoned home that evening to say goodnight to everyone he had me in tears for an hour, telling me how even my own mother was so disgusted at me that she was crying.
@Lilly Passet-De Nais: She later confirmed that yes, she cried. But not because she believed a word that said, but because within only two weeks he had managed to turn kids that loved their mum and enjoyed doing everything with her, totally against her… to the point where they said that she would murder them, couldn’t cook (I cooked every meal and their plates were polished!), scare them etc. Even though my parenting style was always to listen because as far as I was concerned everyone’s opinion and point of view counts.
@Lilly Passet-De Nais: Even with all this, to make sure my kids weren’t left short I gave him €150 out of my disability allowance. For the first 6 months anyway. But I had to reduce it by 20 to €130 because my parents wanted me to contribute towards the diesel and esb, food etc.
He was NOT happy with that at all!
Now, since that I have moved into my own place and I can only pay €30 per week maintenance.
But it’s better than nothing considering I haven’t seen them in almost three years, because they are scared of the mother that did ALL the childcare until she went into the unit (on HIS advice BTW. )
So yes, some mums do pay maintenance… and I would pay more if I could.
@Lilly Passet-De Nais: Clearly you have been wronged, that much is obvious, I can only sympathise for all you’ve been through. I know Roisin O’Shea’s thesis was completed in 2014 and it’s likely the research was undertaken much earlier than that. While it stands as the only comprehensive research undertaken on the Irish Family Court system it should come as no surprise that it may be somewhat out of date or that some isolated cases should appear. She actually began her research as a feminist intending to disprove men’s claims of bias in the Family Court system and instead proved and overwhelming bias against men.
Most people will agree that violence is violence regardless of who is the victim or the perpetrator, domestic violence should be prosecuted in the same way. In fact many States in America and other countries have changed their legislation to reflect this and prosecute the crime and not the automatic bias against men. It led to several significant changes in that if law enforcement had evidence of an assault they didn’t need the victims testimony, something which was usually withdrawn at a later date. It also led to significant changes in the amount of charges levelled against women for assaulting partners, as one cop put it “these were always happening but were never recognised before”.
We have a situation in this country where all the international data, and several of our own studies, shows both men and women are approximately equally capable of being violent towards one another. Despite this the publications from legislation and various agencies surrounding domestic violence still portray men as the perpetrators and women and children as the victims. When you look at the help available for the victims of domestic violence it’s fair to say, with the exception of Amen, there is none for men as almost all grants available got towards women’s groups. This is something which I’m reliably told is guarded and fought over jealously as, for many of these groups, they’ve made a good living out of these grants and perpetrating the “men are bas**rds” story. If either were to stop now so would their good living.
So the vast majority of men have no problem clamping down on all violence, we despise domestic violence, especially because those who carry it out give ammunition to people who would like to tar us all with the same brush. Plus, here’s the other thing, years ago real men were raised to be gentlemen, to open doors for ladies to never even think of raising their hand to a lady. If they saw someone who did they may invite him to step outside for a moment. Now some women moan about this, they want men who can cry, who are in touch with their femine side… whatever that means. Me, nothing in life is guaranteed, but I think knowing someone has been raised with some moral decency and will treat another human being with kindness and compassion will go further than ensuring he can cry.
Author knows what she is talking about. As a kid I witnessed this first hand. I grew up terrified of my father. Seen some horrific violence. Had cops call to the home, but everyone would have to lie and say everything was ok.
I recall that very same night my dad smashing my moms head against the wall a number of times.
I recall crying myself to sleep often, with the pillow over my head trying to block out the sounds of screams.
Mom never took it out on us ids though, as we got older he started to ease up on her and we kids took the spot.
Though he had an awful childhood, his parents were evil. He only knew violence.
@Blarneykite: it’s horrific. But every time it’s highlighted that a woman can be a victim or is murdered, it can get brushed aside with the comments of man bashing. As if all men are to blame, that is not the case.
There are a good few men out there who are perpetrators of domestic violence, there are women out there too that are pepetrators of domestic violence.
The woman in the above case and her kids were murdered by her husband, not wife!
The article isn’t bashing all men, it’s trying to gain empathy for women who are in a similar situation but that’s been brushed aside. The above comments aren’t empathetic!!! They do not help!! In fact they encourage the behavior because the men who are hitting their wife’s now feel justified!!! It gives them ammunition!
I know, I’ve heard my dad use stuff like that to justify his actions.
If it was a male who was the victim you wouldn’t get too many women say “what about women victims?”
@Blarneykite: i hope you reported it. We need more men to come out. You should consider writing an article from a male perspecive
@Blarneykite: well this is it, if you did defend yourself with a raised hand you end up in the clanger…no win situation in your case.
@Markonline: well as he says himself “he chose to stay”. Why not apply his logic towards battered women to himself?
@Markonline: “women who stay deserve it because they could have just left” but his tune changes totally when talking about himself. So myopic.
@Blarneykite: This needs to be highlighted. Many victims of gendered-based violence are dealt with appallingly by the authorities. It seems to be getting better for women; however, many are still reluctant to come forward and the current backlash on social media against women who have made claims of abuse, will not make it easier for anyone – male or female – to make a stand about this
@Veronica: I cannot find your quote “women who stay deserve it because they could have just left” from him. Can you direct me please?
In any case for the question “Why not apply his logic towards battered women to himself?” I think you may have hit the reply button to the wrong person as I think Blarneykite might be best suited to answer.
@Markonline: He commented and said it was the women’s fault because they knew what their abuser was like and choose to stay and it was their own responsibility. Just read his comment. He has different notions of personal responsibility for men and for women. Men don’t have to take any and women are to blame for everything.
@Markonline: Look at the comments a few down… Blarneykite has said: “When does personal responsibility come into play?… YOU MADE THAT CHOICE”… Blaming the victims of domestic violence, while completely ignoring the differences between his situation and many others. As he said himself he was never in fear for his life.
@Catherine Sims: Ah yes, I read that comment and took from it that it was extremely harsh considering the fear aspect depicted in the article. Then I read his comment on his own experience and how he has decided to stay in his own relationship despite the mentioned incident of abuse. I’m not sure what my comment is being challenged for? Did I say something that you don’t agree with? If so let me know,
@paulganly: Yes, I did read that comment……I thought I might be challenged on mine though rather than someone else’s. There are gaping holes in my simplistic response to blarneykite that deserve to be challenged yet here I am typing responses to statements about how I supposedly misread something.
@Veronica: You demand sympathy for any and all assaults that may have taken place against women, yet when Blarneykite recounts a serious assault against him you dismiss it. It isn’t the first time this has happened.
This clearly indicates it isn’t the assaults themselves you take issue with, if it were you’d condemn them no matter who committed them. You only condemn them when they’re against women, committed by men. If men are assaulted by women, no matter how badly, you dismiss them. This clearly fits any definition of misandry.
Give us all a break please. Coercive control is defined as a pattern of sustained emotional and psychological abuse of a partner through threats, intimidation, control and restrictions of liberty. This is marriage and women hold the stick.
@Robert Deane: all I can see is that you’ve no clue . Your comment is disgraceful. ..
@Robert Deane: awful comment, you really have no idea!!!!
@Robert Deane: women hold the stick you say, that may be the case with you and if so that is a abuse .I would say these articles annoy abuser’s
@FlopFlipU: The articles may annoy them but the comments by some of the men would me misconstrued and used as an excuse to continue with the violence.
The man bashing for example, the perpetrator would then say, this doesn’t apply to me personally, it’s all men. It comes from man haters. I hate those people. I’m the victim, she makes me do it, if she hasn’t if burnt my dinner, brought the kids home late, opened the door to the kids friend, nothing would have happened, it’s all her fault.
@Robert Deane
Back to bed Robert.
Domestic violence/abuse towards women is awful and unacceptable.
But why don’t we have a balanced article recognising that such controlling abuse can be directed towards men as well.
Why does this author only want procedures that help women and children. Shouldn’t everyone be treated equally and be offered the same help if in need.
@gjpb: Because statistically the opposite is rare, so there is no balance, this is high babies stuff, either get a coffee or go back to bed.
@Cultural Marxist:
Have a good read of the below link.
You don’t know what you are talking about
@gjpb: When there are high profile cases of women breaking in and murdering their ex make partner and his children and best friend you can have your conversation then. Until then maybe recognise there was actually a little boy murdered too and many little boys are victims of men too. This isn’t men bashing it’s highlighting reality.
@Catherine Sims: I never said anywhere that it was man bashing.
Also, what happened that family and many families is awful.
I am just pointing out that there are no facilities for men who have suffered domestic abuse.
@gjpb:
This is a gender neutral article from early October.
At the bottom is the contact details for both individual sexes help lines. Amen helps men in situations of domestic violence.
Link:
http://www.thejournal.ie/supporting-domestic-abuse-victims-cosc-3617511-Oct2017/
@Catherine Sims: Are you ignoring that the vast majority of children are killed by women? http://www.breakingthescience.org/SimplifiedDataFromDHHS.php
Also this article is not about empathy or understanding it’s about seeking a gender based legislation which is wrong on so many levels in a society where we are all supposed to be equal before the law
@gjpb: Why don’t you write it?
@DaisyChainsaw: will you support me if I write it? or will your comments try and hush me up and call me sexist for highlighting such issues?
@gjpb:
I would support you, and any other male victim of domestic violence.
1 for all and all for 1
@Lily: thank you lily.
I also think what happened you and your family is disgusting. I hope you were all able to get this horrible man out of your lives.
@gjpb: I would support you. None of this control-freakery is right.
And for anyone gping through this I recommend Don Hennesseys book.
“How he gets into her head”
The perpetrator is a master manipulator , I had the sane thoughts myself “why doesnt she leave him”.
Reading that book brings it all home. Don is the expert on DV and he says himself he will never sit in a department of justice meeting again, they have no clue and are completely closed off.
@Mr Jerry Curtin: because she is now financially and emotionally dependent on him, because he often leaves her isolated from family and friends so has no one to turn too. Because he has all the money! She (like my mother ) may be unable to drive, or has no access to a car, she may fear for her kids, she has no way to provide for them, she is scared he may kill her or the kids or that they may change and one day stop. There are many reasons why they don’t leave.
My mother ticked a few of the boxes above.
The Gardai have no clue how to deal with donestic violence. They need to see a black eye. They need serious training and quickly. Well done Sharon and all in Safe Ireland
@Mr Jerry Curtin: A lot of this language of coercion and other slogans is imported from American divorce tactics and most cops over there shrug when encountering it and do what is necessary. They inform the local magistrate whether it is a genuine threat or just someone with a bee on their bonnet sticking it to their partner whatever the gender. A dirty business at best .
Holy hell. Women, look at the top comments. Discussing domestic violence against women is “man bashing”.
How are all women and most men not incandescent with rage when seeing these comments??
Note how many “thumbs up” they’ve got. There are many cowards who silently agree with them. Our country is awash with woman hating.
@Veronica: no veronica.
Men do not hate women in the way you hate most men
Domestic abuse against women is disgusting. However, what is needed is an approach/resources that looks at abuse that impacts both men and women and helps them through the recovery
@gjpb: did you read the article? Did you read the comments?
This is on the anniversary where two women and two children lost their lives at the hands of a violent man, and you have the cheek to talk about me “hating men” and “men are abused too wah wah wah” on this article.
Try to let the conversation be about women just this once. I know it’s hard for you when men do bad things because you want to pretend it doesn’t happen, but it most certainly does, and attitudes like yours are holding us back from truly addressing the issue.
@Veronica: that’s the problem.
These articles only ever focus on women.
How about a non gendered approach where everyone who needs support gets it
@gjpb: because this isn’t a universal issue, it seriously affects females far more than males, and its only right that the resources mirror that. And like I said, if it upsets you so much get out there on the ground and start working with Male DV centres instead of just trying to divert attention away from women.
@Veronica: there are no male DV centres!!!
That’s the problem.
No one is trying to take the attention away from females. Just raising the point that both genders can suffer abuse.
You can bet if an article was published here about male victims of domestic violence you would be the first to complain about that too!!!
@gjpb: it has to be gendered because like it or not it’s the women in dv situations that get murdered. Give me an example of a dv case in Ireland where the abuse ended in the male victim being murdered. Jesus the men here with their ‘what about us’ pity party. Be thankful that men aren’t being murdered by their partners, ffs
@Tara Ní Dochartaigh:
Of course a woman being murdered by her male partner is shocking.
However, anyone suffering any kind of abuse is also unacceptable. It doesn’t have to result in murder for it to be deemed unacceptable.
@gjpb: every week. Every week a man murders his partner in this country alone. Every week. This whataboutary is disgusting. You would rather take attention away from women suffering and fa for the men who are!!! And then victim blame the woman!!
@Deborah Behan:
Where have I victim blamed anyone?? An abuser is never at fault.
Have you the stats for one man killing his partner every week in this country? There have been some shocking cases but I don’t think it happens once a week.
@gjpb: that’s an autocorrect typo
It should be an abusee is never to blame for what the abuser does
@Deborah Behan: “You would rather take attention away from women suffering” Would you not rather see a world where these women are safe because everyone is safe? As long we only look at and fund one side of the issue we will never understand and stop the problem, so no one is safe but we can continue to scapegoat and “other” the causes and feel vindicated because it continues
@Veronica:
Women like you are part of the problem just like abusive men. You rhetoric is soaked in vitriol and misandry. In fact, misandry is too soft a word to describe you.
You are an archetypal man hater.
Every post you put up is attacking men, their manhood, their masculinity. The only man you would have any truck with would probably be chemically castrated and subservient.
You don’t want equality, you want dominance.
Basically, you are no different in temperament or empathy as the abusive male thugs you write about.
@Tara Ní Dochartaigh: Are you seriously saying that unless it results in the murder of the partner then it isn’t DV? This article alone is illustrating the point that mental abuse can constitute DV which I’m sure you’ll agree can be carried out by both men and women and doesn’t have to result in physical violence. That isn’t to say it isn’t soul destroying.
Incidently I’d invite you to do some research on women killing their partners in Ireland and the disparity in sentencing, only this week a woman making a false rape claim in Belfast failed to turn up for sentencing. The judge called it inevitable and issued a bench warrant.
@Tara Ní Dochartaigh: There are many murders of men each year by their partners but I’m going to let you into a dirty little secret. You see unlike female DV where there are centres in every small town in the country and statastics for every little thing its different for men.
We know from various studies, both here and abroad, roughly about the same numbers of men as women suffer from DV, but it ends there. There are no statistics for male DV in Ireland.
There is nobody to collect them, women’s groups deny there is any to collect, couldn’t be bothered and won’t allow men near their doors. And the only male DV group is Amen, guess where the funding goes…??? It’s irresponsible and insulting to say male victims don’t go to male DV centres and every time this is pointed out have certain ignorant women say such things as, “start working with male DV centres”.
By no means is this one sided, the article is suggesting this is all men bullying women, it is equally so for women emotionally doing similar things to men, women are letal also, this should be extended both for men an women, and I would fully agree then,
@Mick Hannigan: not everything is about you, you are not the centre of the universe. We talk about male violence because it is almost universally male violence that ends women and children’s lives in DV.
Discussing male violence is not the same as “saying all men are wife beaters”. How much you must think of yourself, and how close to being an abuser you must be, to think that an article like this is putting down men.
@Veronica: sure you think all men are potential abusers and rapists
Another disgusting comment from you
@gjpb: I think when your initial reaction to an article about domestic violence against women, on the day that two women and two children were KILLED BY A MAN, is to start blubbering “you’re implying all men do this” and “what about the men??”, then yeah, I reckon you’ve got some skeletons in your wardrobe.
@Veronica:
Maybe your reaction to mentions on male rape in prisons suggests something lurking inside you too.
@Veronica: he’s calling for men to be given help as well in cases where they experience abuse.
That does not make him an abuser!!!
@Veronica: I understand you point and frustration, but if your going to introduce a law, it has to be both ways, just my opinion,
@Nick Allen: what has my reaction on male rape in prisons been, aside from condemning it? Besides which, why do you expect women to solve all of mens problems that men create?
@Mick Hannigan: sure, I agree with you, but I also think that’s unhelpful in the extreme to see articles discussing DV against women as bashing men, especially on the anniversary where two women and two children were killed by a man. Women and children die every year at the hands of violent males, and something needs to be done about that NOW. That does not mean I hate men, it means I hate male violence.
@Veronica: every day is an anniversary of horrific acts like that unfortunately,
Spend what you like on this. Some people are just nasty, they always will be. It’s not fixable but wasting time and energy on the men vs women argument is guaranteed to drag this on.
Give victims the means of support and escape, whether male or female, and if you’re reading this, stop being a see you next Tuesday.
The amount of men on here taking it personally that other men beat and kill their partners and children is astonishing. Then trying to distract by saying men are victims too but are waiting on women to fix that for them too. Then comes the victim blaming, why did she go back if she knew what he was like, without engaging your brain in any kind of way. Maybe you think you’re educating us women? Shutting us up? Teaching us to think that men’s feelings are more important? Yeah can’t see how we ended up here alright.
An important article about dv and predictably, the comments are textbook #fragilemasculinity. You had Man’s Day over the weekend and the comments were negligible compared to the numbers under articles about women!
@DaisyChainsaw: And you meet the “#fragilemasculinity” with your #toxicfemininity, each time, every time. You’re two well-met dance partners. If only you would keep your dance private, the social discourse would be a lot more stately.
@Andrew Eager: Broflake, you triggered?
Do you see your own behaviour reflected in these articles? Is that why they annoy you so much? You can coersively control those around you, but not the articles on the Journal?
@DaisyChainsaw: you are a seriously vile person.
@DaisyChainsaw: I’m not controlling anyone. That would be some trick given I’m single. But please do continue, the more you post, the more we learn about your putrid view of fully one half of humanity, and allows us to learn what informs a certain strain of feminist thought.
This seems sexest to me. Men get abused as well. Research AMEN org. If you are going to write an article about domestic abuse, both sexes need to be represented as well as all age groups. Men aren’t the only capable abusers.
What about abuse of children? HSE doesn’t even respond …with a call about a mother abusing/neglecting children HSE ignores it, interviews children with abuser outside the door shaking and demanding to know what the kids have said about her. HSE ignoring that same child attempting suicide saying it has nothing to do with the issues they’ve been contacted about repeatedly over the past few YEARS. It’s a joke.
I’m a woman, and I believe this whole topic is dealt with in a biased manner. When you talk about abuse: talk about actual lack of follow through of services like HSE and be gender/age neutral.
This article is biased. as is HSE child services. Abuse of children in the family home classifies as domestic abuse as well.
I forgot, children don’t count in this country. Only adult females.
@Ashlie Nolen Sarmiento: we are conditioned to the feminine primary social order. Men have no real rights when it comes to marriage,but we can’t talk about that.
Men can be victims of coercive control too. Domestic violence perpetration is not gender specific, anyone can be a bully. It is harder I think for men to come forward so figures don’t reflect the true stats of domestic violence for either sex.
It is a pity that this article doesn’t acknowledge that men are victims too. My comment isn’t meant to be divisive, there are bad people out there in homes abusing wives or husbands.
I am not afraid of knives but I am very scared of the woman who laughed as she thrust one at my chest. It gets to me when domestic violence is reduced to simple terms of woman victim and man perpetrator.
Anyone who is suffering know that there are great helpful organisations out there, http://www.amen.ie saved my life 8 years ago.
And this here is a classic example of why the gender based approach does not work. (and before I proceed, please note for all that wish to think so, I’m in no way taking anything away from the severity of the situation very many women and children find themselves in)
SAFEireland seeks to address the issue of ‘coercive control’ in households and relationships around Ireland – all well and good and proper. However, having adopted the gender based approach, the organisation is incapable of seeing or able to acknowledge the ‘coercive control’ very many men in failing and broken down relationships, experience at the hands of the mother of their children. This manifests itself in those men having to endure egg-shell syndrome – obliged to tug the forelock, mind their ps and qs, and refrain from expressing contradictory opinions to their children’s mother, for fear that doing so, will cause a refusal of access to their children. This naturally leads to very serious, detrimental mental health implications all the way up to and including substance and alcohol abuse and suicide. Nothing demeans a person more than having to seek what is effectively a permission slip to see their own children.
“SAFE Ireland, the national social change agency working to make Ireland the safest country in the world for women and children.” – because men can never be victims of coercive control according to official Ireland.
This article is only about a certain percentage of men. Domestic Violence needs to be stamped out. It doesn’t make a difference whether it is male or female, all victims deserve our support and help in dealing with abusive behaviour. Coercive control is insidious because it is done in such an underhand way, very difficult to prove and even then it can seem like the victim is paranoid. So please bear in mind this behaviour is not just male orientated but is used by perpetrators of either sex. So let’s stop the blame game and unite against Domestic Abuse whoever the perpetrator may be.
There are some good points here, but what does the author want to do, exactly? If the current bill doesn’t do enough, what would? I doubt it’s even possible to come up with a working definition of coercive control, but if people want to criminalise it, they’re going to have to.
@Ben McArthur:
Actually I think the definition of coercive control is easy!
Withholding money!
Isolation from friends and family!
Threat of violence!
Violence!
Loss of freedom / free will!
Proving it could be harder. They would have to document everything, keep a journal. Dates times, restrictions and hide it well, for it it was found it wouldn’t bode well.
@Lily: Let’s take out violence and threats of violence, because they’re already illegal. Withholding money – what exactly does that mean? My wife and I have separate finances & I have no access to her savings. Is she withholding money from me? Isolation from friends and family – what’s that if it’s not backed up with threats of violence? Loss of freedom / free will – that is the vaguest of the lot. I don’t see how any of this could be framed in a way which is clear enough to make law. If anyone thinks they can draft it, they should give it a go.
@Ben McArthur:
In my case (well my parents case) my dad would have all the money, he would allocate her money to pay the bills, she would have to do grocery shopping and show him the receipt and give him back the exact change so as she wouldn’t have any money in her purse. The children’s allowance would be collected by her and he would take if from her.
She wasn’t allowed to buy anything without his permission. Not even a 10p bar of chocolate for us kids. Let alone clothes for us kids.
She was completely financially dependent on him, couldn’t even pay for a bus fare to get away, she didn’t drive. She didn’t work (as was the norm).
That changed a bit as we got older as she was allowed to work, but all her money went on bills so was only left a small bit.
Now there are bank accounts, but if the spouse withholds the card they have no access to money.
@Lily:
Loss of freedom, basically not letting her leave the house, have visitors, a prisoner in ones own home.
Cont: basically – false imprisonment and that is already illegal.
So really it’s not that hard!
It could be done.
@Lily: Go ahead then. They are a lot of examples from personal experience. You can’t formulate a law based on examples. As you say, we already have a law against false imprisonment and that doesn’t need a new one.
@Ben McArthur:
We have a law on violence, Yet domestic violence was seen as different. Not the same as street violence or assault, assault and battery, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with intent, attempted murder.
That’s what this needs to go ahead.
When domestic is in front of violence it somehow changed. It was ok because it was a wife or husband.
The whole game has changed now.
@Ben McArthur:
All laws are formulated on examples. First example Cain murdered Able first law – thou shall not murder!!!
Then it gets technical, it’s all based on events / happenings, law follows to prevent the same happening again.
Yes mine come from personal events that not only happened in my home but are happening in other people’s homes.
@Lily: Yes, we had fairly clear laws, which were ignored. But what’s being discussed is creating new laws. And everything that is so far proposed is either already the law, or vague.
Laws aren’t based on feelings or examples, but on actual concepts that are certain enough to say whether it’s happened or not. For example, this is theft: “a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it” followed by specific clarifications of what those elements mean.
The author doesn’t attempt a definition of coercive control.
It’s a basic principle of constitutional law that you can’t have vague criminal offences. You have to be able to tell whether conduct is criminal or not. So if the draft legislation isn’t enough, you have to be able to fix it with something clear.
@Ben McArthur: tbh I think they can do that, they just need someone who is more articulate than myself and the author in law terms to be able to phase sentences correctly and decisively.
have your say