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A FAMILY MEMBER told me a particularly dark anecdote recently. A teenager in the late 1970s, he recalls a sex education lesson in biology class, where female classmates were told by the male teacher that if they were ever raped, the best damage limitation would be to just lie back and try to enjoy it.
You could write a whole book on what was wrong with this statement. Even thirty years ago, it was a shocking thing to come out with; if it weren’t, my storyteller wouldn’t have remembered it with such clarity. The reason I’m bringing it up here is that most of us would assume that we’ve come a long way since then. It’s no longer acceptable to tell teenage girls that sexual violence is a likelihood they should prepare for, and accept submissively because it’s easier for everyone in the long run.
“That,” you might state with some degree of confidence, “was what you’d call Rape Culture. Thank God it’s not acceptable to think like that anymore.”
I am genuinely puzzled by the anti-feminist backlash I’ve seen in recent debates on prevalent sexual issues, two recent examples being the UniLad website’s rape jokes and Prime Time’s exposé of the sex industry in Ireland. Discussion of both subjects is to be encouraged, and in general, those opposed to the violent misogyny of UniLad and the normalisation of prostitution in Ireland seemed happy to engage with people offering different viewpoints, or people who wanted to know more about either. All well and good, and exactly how it should be. But there were still far too many comments from people who wanted neither to engage with, or be challenged by, anti-exploitation advocates. People who seemed genuinely appalled that anyone could be offended by rape jokes, or challenge the validity of prostitution as a career choice.
What’s funnier than encouraging young men to rape unwilling marks because statistics say they won’t get caught? What’s more empowering than having sex with someone you’re not attracted to because you need the money? If I wasn’t so busy chortling at the former, I’d be wondering why I’d never thought of trying the latter.
A woman who complains about rape jokes is told she has no sense of humour
And you know how it goes. A woman who complains about rape jokes is told she has no sense of humour, that she’s a killjoy lesbian, and that she should get back in the kitchen. If she disagrees with the selling of sex, she’s sneered at for being a prude and a hypocrite, only interested in a woman’s right to choose if it means choosing a “respectable” career. Therefore, the points she makes are easily dismissed, as now she’s been labelled a shrieking shrew or a Holy Joe. God help her if she should identify as a feminist, or use controversial terms such as “rape culture”.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether it’s simply a case of misdirection and misinformation that has created this – let’s face it – fear of feminism. Don’t people know what a feminist is? A feminist is simply someone who believes that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men. She is not someone who hates men, or who thinks that all sex is rape. She’s not necessarily even a She. All of the strong, intelligent, charismatic men I know are feminists; they believe in gender equality. That’s all feminism is… how could anyone proudly, publicly disagree with that?
Sometimes you’ll hear women stating, “I’m not a feminist, but I believe in equality”. Believing in equality is exactly what a feminist does. Why should a woman be ashamed of calling herself a feminist? Because people will automatically presume she’s a radical misanthrope who’ll spray breast milk everywhere and beat men around the head with her jackboots if one so much as smiles in her direction?
Sometimes you’ll hear men saying, “I try to enact equality, but then women expect me to open doors for them,” which is incredibly depressing as it’s a confusion between women’s rights and basic good manners. I hold doors open for men sometimes, which I guess makes me a Bear.
Some people dislike the notion of feminism because they believe that women already have equal rights in our society, and certainly, in a legislative sense, we’re coming along nicely. We’re not there yet, but I can see how people who don’t have direct knowledge of such topics as pay equality or abortion would think that we are. But as a society, we’re a long way yet from treating each other with equal respect, regardless of gender. This is where “rape culture” sticks its ugly head back in.
“Rape culture” is a fairly new term to the popular lexicon, and again, I think that those offended by its use don’t quite understand what it refers to. If I say that we currently have a “rape culture”, many people will assume I mean that rape is socially acceptable, or that all men are rapists, or that simply being female is inherently dangerous because we live in a world of violently hormonal men. Such hyperbolic definitions mean that anyone using the term “rape culture” can be immediately dismissed as being a radical malcontent in a world full of happily smiling normals, but it doesn’t take much more digging to find the truth in the theory.
There’s no denying that Ireland has a rape culture
“Rape culture” actually refers to the set of societal norms that equates violence with passion, pigeonholes male sexuality, and excuses or downplays sexual violence. There’s no denying that Ireland has a rape culture. Am I being deliberately provocative by stating that? God, no. But it certainly suits many people to assume so, so they storm away, frothing at the mouth and wildly asking how I could be so terribly offensive about healthy, straight sexuality.
But ask a group of Irish women whether any of them have ever thought twice about walking alone after dark, or tried to convince a female friend not to do so. Ask if they’ve ever been verbally abused in a bar for not engaging with a crude come-on. Ask if they’ve ever been groped in a crowd.
A friend of mine, a young man with a pretty girlfriend, spoke with me recently about relationship problems they were having. It turned out that the main problem was her insistence that she could wear dresses to work if she wanted to.
“She’s a barber,” my friend explained. “If she wears a dress to work, men will look at her and make comments and come on to her. It’s unprofessional and irresponsible of her to wear a dress in a male environment.”
His stance essentially pre-blamed his girlfriend for any unwanted attention she might receive, while excusing possible perpetrators as not being in control of their own rampaging desires. I tried explaining this, but no amount of counter-argument could make him change his mind. This kind of mentality, which defines rape culture so perfectly I wonder how I didn’t make it up, does a disservice to men as well as to women. Are we to believe that all men are so in thrall to their own lust that they can’t help overpowering attractive females? Are we to believe that rape happens because women are just too darn sexy?
Rape culture definitely exists. Why not accept that, and work together to get rid of the damn thing?
What would the abandonment of rape culture mean, anyway? It’d hardly be a great loss. If women were no longer afraid to walk alone at night, in case their mere feminine presence invited violent assault. If men didn’t feel that they had to conform to a very narrow definition of male sexuality, and didn’t feel emasculated if their chosen target demurred. If victims of sexual abuse weren’t afraid to speak out, weren’t bound by shame to blame themselves. If men and women who believed in equality and mutual respect weren’t demonised for using the word “feminist”.
That sounds like a nice kind of way to do things, really. I don’t know how any reasonable person could object to that.
Let’s keep the debate going, because the more I think about it, the more I believe that it’s definitely just a case of misdirection and misinformation that has created this fear of feminism. I mean, the only alternative is to assume that significant sections of the population are terrified of women, and that we’re living amongst some extremely militant misogynists. And that can’t be right… can it?
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Your example of your male friend who objects to his girlfriend wearing dresses to work because she might receive unwanted comments is a fallacy and actually works against your argument because you equate unwanted comments with rape. I don’t agree with that. I also don’t agree that just because this girl wears a dress to work that she will receive unwanted commentary.
You’ve missed the point completely in that the issue here is what the word rape means to different people. To say that we have a rape culture is inflammatory, to me that does mean that we have a culture that accepts and even promotes rape. We do not. What we have is a culture that accepts humourous treatment of the word rape, which is an entirely different thing. I’m not saying that that is acceptable.
To say that someone joking about rape means that more women will get raped is suspect. Are there any studies that prove this? Is there anybody exploring the link between jocularity and acceptance? In using the term ‘rape culture’ you are doing exactly what you object to – misusing a word or term in order to stimulate a particular reaction in the reader or listener. This is what the joker does when he/she jokes about rape.
The author is not saying that just becuase this girl wears a dress she will receive unwanted commentary- her BOYFRIEND said that, while the girl rightly argues that she should be allowed to wear a dress without inviting unwanted attention.
I think you are the one who has missed the point- to say a rape culture exists is not to say that we all “accept and even promote rape.” But it does allude to societal behaviours that often trivialise and dismiss sexual abuses, starting with derogatory remarks, and one such method in doing so, is certainly through “humourous treatment.” Perhaps you are unoffended by rape-related “jocularity” but there are many people out there who are offended, and who are not “humourless”, “uptight” or “frigid” for feeling so.
All the threads of your comment unintentionally succeed in validating the authors argument.
Fair play Neil
Nail on the head
“To say that we have a rape culture is inflammatory, to me that does mean that we have a culture that accepts and even promotes rape. We do not. What we have is a culture that accepts humourous treatment of the word rape, which is an entirely different thing. I’m not saying that that is acceptable.”
That’s what rape culture means. The article explains this.
The problem is that because people don’t take rape seriously enough, such “inflammatory” comments need to be made to get people’s attention. A culture that trivialises rape will also generally result in more rape and less support for the victims. It’s not just “unacceptable”, it’s a serious cultural issue that needs to be addressed.
It’s not misusing the term because it is referring to a culture where rape is somehow more prominent and acceptable.
I must have an excellent group of friends, I cant recall ever hearing a rape “joke”, never witnessed a crude come on to someone in a bar, or tried to cop a feel when waiting for a pint in a busy bar.
Lisa perhaps you need a smaller brush when you are tarring all of us with that giant brush of yours.
Perhaps she also needs to realise the various jokes women make at the expense of men, and making them out to be mere objects? Or does that only work when the joke is on a woman and not a man. Absolutely typical old garbage turning this into a “feminist issue”. Men get raped. Men go into prostitution. Men are the butt of sexist jokes. It’s not all about women you know!!!
Lucky you Alan, having such a pc group of friends- that doesn’t mean that these behaviours don’t exist for others, I for one have not only experienced them, but seen others subjected to them, and not only in bars, but in particular, the workplace. So instead of telling people to use “smaller brushes,” perhaps you should look at the bigger picture.
And Dave, of course men suffer through these things too, but that doesn’t make the authors argument less relevant! In all its forms, against male or female, it is unacceptable.
There us nothing PC about finding rape “jokes” or the other behaviour in this article unfunny and distasteful, its common decency.
The notion that all mean are potential rapists, as this article implies, is offensive. Again nothing PC about that either.
Dave, but women are raped more, and more women go into prostitution. Where does it say that men being raped isn’t a concern? To me, you’re a typical dishonest “anti-feminist”.
As a “red blooded male” this article is insulting and a load of nonsense. It confirms the belief that feminism is Opposed to the male and lives in its own egotistical world. The vast majority of men I know abhor sexual violence. As a matter of fact the violence would be directed against the male. Cop on to yourself. Ps no problem with prostitution either provided both parties agree. Use existing laws to clamp down on the pimps.
This is exactly the kind of dismissive behaviour women (and I am sure men) find themselves up against. Tell the woman who has experienced some kind of abuse to “cop on to herself” why don’t you. And while there are violent acts committed against men, it doesn’t rob women of their right to speak out against such abuses.
tempted to stop reading at ‘red blooded male’
I believe I saw the concept of male feminism in the article.
‘Clamping down’ never fixed anything and is usually a term for ‘business as usual’.
Prostitution should be a regulated industry. this is the only way to sort it out. Then people trafficking will be called what it really is…..SLAVERY!
As a “blue-blooded male” I find your comment insulting and a load of nonsense. It confirms the belief, that a commoner is opposed to a civilised behaviour and lives in its own primitive world.
Ah, that’s too easy. Nonetheless, you’re making a bunch of unwarranted assumptions. Why do you feel the urge to explain to the women errors of their ways instead to actually listening, what do they have to say?
Start with an anecdote from 30 years ago, throw in some information masquerading as facts and you get this painfully ignorant article. This feel like the sort of editorialised rubbish you come up with 2 hours before a deadline, full of clearly inaccurate statements used to prove your central thesis.
If you want to highlight that this so called “rape culture” exists then would suggest you do research and do not simply dream up “facts” as it hurts your overall argument. Yes, the objectification of women still occurs and yes rape still occurs, but false scenarios only serve to make the issue seem less prevalent by trivialising it.
Your assertion that “a woman who complain about rape jokes is told she has no sense of humor” is laughable, it just doesn’t happen, if you have witnessed this then maybe you need to find new friends.
Your take on feminism, that women are only seeking equality, is also painfully limited – MacKinnion and Dworkin would have issue with your take on things and it just goes to show your limited understanding of the entire feminist movement. The not so subtle attacks on men (women should still be in the kitchen) is, frankly, embarrassing and reflects attitudes that do not exist to the extent that you suggest.
What really let’s you down however is the poorly thought up parable of “the hairdresser and her uptight boyfriend.” If that conversation actually happened (which i really doubt given how ridiculous it is) then tell her to dump the guy, because he sounds like a controlling idiot.
There are actual issues surrounding rape, violence against women etc that unfortunately still exist, but your article does no help to either issue.
Next time I would suggest you do research and don’t just conjure up outmoded scenarios.
I have 4 daughters and believe me I have heard their male teenage friends telling the most sick and nasty jokes about rape. if anybody complains, they are told they have no sense of humour. these young men have been reared on a bad diet of hard porn – easily accessed – and media disrespect towards women, as have young women, regardless of parents attempts to protect. young women are media and peer bullied into behaving more sexually than they feel comfortable with and young men think all females should do thongs porn stars do. I can remember many a tome I’ve been labelled killjoy for confronting these attitudes. also believe me again when I tell you men who try to control what their girlfriends wear say and do are out there in huge numbers.
@andreas “Your assertion that “a woman who complain about rape jokes is told she has no sense of humor” is laughable, it just doesn’t happen, if you have witnessed this then maybe you need to find new friends.”
This in fact happened on Twitter a few weeks ago and involved a user called @uniladmag posting misogynistic and frankly appalling “articles” on it’s twitter account and on a website of the same name. When confronted on twitter my a woman, unilad mag asked her was she a dyke, then the enlightened “you must be a dyke” and then stated that she had no sense of humour because she coudn’t see the funny side of an article advocating rape.
Anita,
I do not disagree with the fact that there still exists some pretty depressing attitudes towards rape and violence towards women. The problem I have is that the article is so poorly written that it would barely pass muster as a transition year sociology assignment and as such, belittles the entire subject.
The article is vague, contains no facts whatsoever and generalises a number of subjects. Several passages are put into quotes (“like this”) that are clearly just thoughts in the author’s head based on, at best, anecdotal evidence that is then reported as fact.
We have a long way to go when it comes to understanding these difficult subjects, unfortunately articles like this, that demonize men on a general level, only serve to galvanize attitudes in the wrong way.
Here is a rundown of the fall out from these imbeciles and the crap they were posting. FYI they are relaunching near the end of Feb but as a ‘members only’ kind of site. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/31/unilad-magazine-forced-to-pull-surprise-rape-article-after-twitter-backlash_n_1244173.html
It’s good to have a strong, well behaved man mansplaining simple things to ignorant women. Thank you, Andreas Stein, what would women do without your help.
Miroslav, you have cruelly and efficiently deconstructed each one of my points, my congratulations on your well thought out riposte. While Anita and Louise both provided interesting counterpoints to my argument (again it must be put, my issue is with the sloppiness of the article and not it’s premise) you have waded in with the laziest of comments and only served to make yourself look foolish.
If you have nothing to add to the debate I would suggest that you stand to one side and let the grown-ups talk.
@Louise- only read the article this evening, there are no excuses for that type of behavior. It is unfortunate that the internet give such a loud voice to the extremes, very depressing reading.
Ah, Mr Stein, thank you for proving my point so neatly. And may I also congratulate you on your pompousness?
Very proper.
I wish I lived in a world where I could retreat to a fictional high ground as easily as you do, Miroslav.
Have a wonderful day.
Do you know I was going to comment on this piece but then I noticed something on Lisa’s Twitter feed that made me stop for a moment…
“The piece is about rape culture, by the way. It exists, no matter what horrified privileged gobshites like to think.”
She says in her piece “Lets keep the debate going” but then in a reply to one of her followers who said “It’s a shame that so many of the commenters are completely missing the point and being dicks in general.” she says “I never read them. Ever. You’ve more chance of legitimate debate amongst the seagulls.”
another tweet.
“Thank you! I don’t read comments, so meh to all the poor ostriches with their heads in the sand.”
So there you are. This columnist who is given space to air her views with the supposed aim of initiating debate not only doesn’t bother to read anybody else’s point of view but she also regards the commentators on the Journal.ie as privileged gobshite’s, seagulls and ostrich’s.
I enjoy the debates that people engage in on this site and the contributions of various columnists and commentators who I do not always agree with but whose freedom of speech I respect. There is however ,in my belief when you are given writing space for a column to air your views, a certain responsibility to take on board other peoples views that may be in opposition to yours and if necessary rebut those views. To just write a piece and walk away and ignore any debate , which BTW the writer called for,shows that she has no intention of listening to anyone else’s opinions except her own. What is even worse is the contempt and disrespect she has shown towards all commentators on this site as well as the staff and publishers who gave her (free I presume) open space to air her views to a huge audience. Seriously, if this is the standard of columnists that the Journal are now engaging then something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.
thoroughly and well said
Eye opener.
Thanks for that Brian. I entirely agree that these are subjects that need to be discussed in an adult manner…. so the arrogance of someone who believes only their opinion is worthy of being read needs to be exposed.
Great comment Brian. I had a more supportive comment posted but it disappeared?
Well said and I agree with all the comments underneath too
Boom!!! That puts the nail in our article author’s bona fides and integrity. It seems she’s done more harm than good for “her cause”. A worthy cause too
Good article as a starting point for debate. Disagree with the general tone though. I have been in over 100 European cities & I wouldn’t care to see female friends walk home alone in 99% of them. Some more than others, but the threat is everywhere. Ireland, yes, would be on the riskier side, mostly because of lack of policing, lighting, transport & also because of our drinking culture. These might be side issues but should still be recognized as vital to welfare of women (& men..). Also not to be trite/offensive but in what countries do women feel genuinely safe to walk home alone dressed whatever way they desire?
I didn’t read that this was exclusively an Irish problem, however, because this article was posted on an Irish website for Irish readership, it stands to reason that our culture is the one being examined.
And just because Ireland is not the only country people worry about walking home alone at night in, doesn’t mean that the entirety of the argument is invalid- it is clearly as problem that needs addressing, as you say, vital to welfare of men AND woman alike.
Author could have said, “ask a group of women anywhere”, rather than Irish women so.
And I don’t question validity of some of her argument, however I wont say what I think of most it, as am trying to be constructive & find some shared ground.
Sidetracking, sort of, but as a cultural & global issue, someone could ask why two women beaters get celebrated at an event like the Grammys last night?
Atlantic soup
You will be told that it has nothing to do with their musical ability .
I have the same problem when it comes to movies etc., and there are
celebrities involved in the oscars / baftas/ iftas/ who are renowned for
domestic violence and batteryand they receive accolades .It makes me
wonder .
Or several years ago there was a world renowned boxer who was convicted
of rapeand sentenced to prison for the crime of rape. I actually heard two men
(Colleagues) saying that the rape didn’t do her career any harm in fact they
thought she had orchestrated the whole story to facilitate her plunge into fame…
If you asked “are you afraid to walk home at night because of a fear of a sexual attack” that would probably get less of a percentage of positive responses compared to the fear of theft being there or fear of any form of attack.
that’s not rape culture Atlantic Soup. Rape culture means a culture that doesn’t see rape as serious problem, essentially accepts it. Hence the authors need to lie.
safety is an issue and I think we all find the crime of rape abhorrent. a rape culture would mean people did not see it as a serious issue to be fought. So, no rape culture. No more than we have a murder culture.
We have an alcohol abuse culture as society has a far to tolerant attitude to binge drinking and extreme public drunkenness.
The majority of rapists are psychopaths. The majority of psychopaths are male. The vast majority of men, are neither rapists, nor psychopaths.
There’s a lot wrong with this article but she’s raised a very relevant, “of the moment” problem…being groped in large crowds. I don’t know any woman my age who hasn’t been on the receiving end of this “attention”, nine times out if ten it’s impossible to figure out the perpetrator and in the rare occasions I have been able to, their attitude is “What’s the problem?”, as if I should have been flattered by the attention…what an ungrateful cow I am. The truth is I’ve stopped reacting to it, I don’t so much as flinch and continue on my way…and even as I write this, I realise how truly sad that is.
sorry meant to like not dislike
It was one of the reasons I stopped going to particular clubs and bars. It is truly sad.
Deirdre Forde
I fully agree with you . It is sad that we all have come to the decision
to say nothing and move away from the site of where this ”accidental”
groping occurs. I honestly thought that this type of carry on had died off.
Obviously not …I wonder if men suffer the same type of unwanted attention from women…
Can I just say I’m slightly bewildered at those who have intentionally disliked my comment…if I was simply sharing an opinion then fair enough, people have every right to agree or disagree. So just to clarify, I am stating fact. This HAS happened to me. So many times in fact, I couldn’t even hazard a guess at the amount.
Gemma Delaney
I agree with every thing you have said too . I remember being on the Metro in Paris many years ago and there were 3 of us women, travelling together ,and it was rush hour .When one of the group got startled and jumped , saying that some one had pinched her bum .Several stops later ,and the train had emptied along it’s route , she discovered that she had been robbed .She was more annoyed that she had been robbed when she thought her bum was pinched… Where as I would have been livid if it was me that was pinched…. I am not a prude ,just manners …
that’s unpleasant alright, but there is no rape culture. I don’t think people find groping women acceptable in general. It is not really taken as seriously if a woman gropes a man…. maybe because people think we like it or aren’t bothered by it/
Whilst it is of course wrong to make jokes about rape, or to use rape as a verb in the non-rape sense, this article is mostly not about that.
It’s mostly a defence of feminism and basically accuses any men who isn’t a feminist of being weak, uncharismatic and stupid.
By the time the article gets around to addressing the very relevant points, all the weak, uncharismatic and stupid men will be difficult to convince the author has anything worthy to say.
Your evaluation is pretty lazy. The article is a defense of gender equality. It neither says nor implies that those men who believe that men should have more rights than women are weak, uncharismatic, or stupid.
Mind you, if someone thinks that an extra X chromosome entitles you to greater rights than those without, maybe they are weak (thus in need of a boost), uncharismatic, or stupid.
It says the below. Perhaps you are reading a different article to me.
All of the strong, intelligent, charismatic men I know are feminists; they believe in gender equality.
Perhaps you also failed to read my post, where did I say anything about “men who believe that men should have more rights than women”?
I absolutely believe that women and men should have the same rights. I don’t have to be a feminist to believe that. However the article does imply that because I am not a feminist that I am weak, stupid and uncharismatic.
“I absolutely believe that women and men should have the same rights. I don’t have to be a feminist to believe that.”
The author argues that the former and the latter are the same. I’m guessing that you do not think that a feminist is “merely” someone who believes that men and women should have the same rights — that’s fine, the word is bandied about so much that I think it’s fair to consider that different people define the word differently.
However, if you’re going to criticize the author on her assertion of what feminists are or aren’t, surely it’s only fair to use the definition that she’s using?
As to her statement “All of the strong, intelligent, charismatic men I know are feminists; they believe in gender equality.” — yes, it may imply that those who don’t believe in gender equality are weak, etc — but I’d argue an implication is not an accusation.
An implication is still a statement of a belief. I presume you accept I am entitled to tackle that?
And as regards accepting the author’s definition of a feminist – no I can’t accept if it means that by definition (because I believe in equality) that I am a feminist. I reject the notion that only feminists can believe in gender equality or care about issues that affect only women. Reject it entirely.
Anyone who dares disagrees with pro-feminist thrust of one of these so-called feminist articles automatically gets accused of all sorts of crap by the the hear no evil about feminism brigade. The author introduced a defence of feminism into an article that didn’t need it.
Why could the author not just have restricted herself to writing about the trivialisation of rape via rape jokes or the misuse of language (‘they raped my wallet’)? She’s absolutely right that this is unacceptable but one doesn’t have to be a feminist, agree with feminism or even just be a woman to agree with that.
Donal a definition of feminism
fem·i·nism/ˈfeməˌnizəm/Noun: The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
I think you are a feminist !! Embrace it nothing to be ashamed of.
Donal.. all the feminist men I know are great! that is the weakest argument I have seen in a long time and doesn’t mean anything. We take rape extremely seriously, so, there is no rape culture.
Fear of sexual violence is not the only reason why females feel uneasy/unsafe walking home alone. They are also more likely to be held up and robbed than males in the same situation as they can be seen as softer targets by muggers.
Ultan, women tend to fear violent assault more than men. But men are the greater proportion of violent crime.
Where did you get your information from?
One would have to wonder why, in each and every example of an article on rape, feminism or gender equality, the (mostly male) commenters feel so utterly threatened. As I have mentioned in various posts and blogs on this very issue, I am not threatened by men. I respect and love the men in my life be they brothers, friends or husband. Rape is a matter that concerns men too, and unfortunately has a higher statistic of going unreported than women.
I think we can all agree that rape is wrong. Casually joking or trivialising rape is wrong. Most of us are on the same side here and yet because of some kind of insecurity or perceived division we are arguing like brats among ourselves.
We will not see any significant progress while women and men are divided on matters of gender equality. While men are granted less parenting rights, while a woman’s domestic role is enshrined in the constitution, while women’s bodies are used as sexual props in the media. There is so much work to be done. Perhaps we might all do better to stop arguing and get to it.
Siobhán — A feminist
Just because people have an issue with feminism doesn’t mean they disagree with most of what feminism is saying with regard to real instances of where women are discriminated against.
Practically every single article in the Journal that purports to address a so-called feminist issue tries to include a general defence of feminism and generally implies, as in the case of this article, that anyone who has an issue with feminism is stupid.
Has it ever occurred to feminists to ask if maybe there is something in the criticisms that are aimed at their ideology?
Well said
Well said Sinead, to clarify!
Hi Donal, it so happens, I personally take issue with the views of some feminists. However, there are as many kinds of feminist and feminism as there are people. Some feminists, for example, are anti-abortion where I would be pro-choice. Some are very hostile to men in general, where I, and to be honest the majority of feminists I would speak to and know personally, feel that gender equality means moving forward with right minded men to achieve a more equal society for all of us. So do I think there is something ‘in’ the criticism weighted at feminism, yes I do. I think the public image of feminism has been somewhat poor to date. But do I believe that there is enough good in what feminism is trying to achieve? Definitely, and in fact any movement which is not open to comment and criticism about the way in which it conducts itself and the methods by which it tries to achieve its goals, is doomed to fail.
Ok – but you started by implying that anyone who did this was someone who ‘felt threatened’.
I don’t feel threatened by feminism, I just think a good deal of it is intellectually dishonest.
And whilst I wouldn’t claim to be an expert in any sense of the word, I was exposed to a lot of feminist thinking and writing whilst doing an Arts degree.
Hi Donal, it is not my intent to matronise you, but I suggest you do a quick Google search and scan the comments sections of articles, or Facebook pages, or blog posts that touch on subjects similar to this one. You will clearly see that the majority of ‘trolling’ is by men who are, from the tone and content of their comments, incredibly insecure. So where you might not feel threatened, a great many others appear to be.
To your other point, again, before deciding on whether or not the entire scope of feminism is as you say ‘intellectually dishonest’, I suggest reading some good feminist theory, or even really just looking at the situations of women compared to men globally. As one commenter noted, it’s not just about Ireland :)
Niamh, apologies, I meant to thank you. :)
Siobhan, ‘a good deal’ ≠ ‘the entire scope of feminism’.
Dear Siobhan,
The answer to your question is that modern feminism labels men as a problem. We are the rape culture the patriarchy, the violent husbands. No one likes being labelled or stereotyped.
Disgraceful. The only people to blame for rape are the people who carry it out.
What about those who create a society were the actions of victim blamers and rape apologists, result in victims not reporting rapes and are the people who make up our juries?
People like these.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1217/listowel.html
I can’t believe you got thumbs down! Like, who disagrees with that??
“No, we must blame MORE people!”
I liked this, but now I think about it, not quite. The people that trivialise it or help create a society where rape convictions rates are abysmally low are also to blame.
Yes, rape culture exists in this pitiful country-the rape of innocent and vulnerable people. But we also are witnessing other kinds of rape in Ireland today. The pilfering and rape of the poorest in our society by the political classes and decision makers and also of profitable companies by unscrupulous Anglo fat cats and facilitated by our Government.
Don’t really think that’s what the article was about.
This is the misuse of the word she’s talking about. There are plenty of other articles where you can make that comment!
I think we have to be very careful about labels we use. The author lays out many of the meanings commonly and wrongly ascribed the term ‘rape culture’. Inflammatory terms which require so much explanation might be best rethought. The paradox is that the term supposes that there is some kind of social acceptability about rape; yet look at how inflamed men get when the very term is used.
Sexual violence is never acceptable, and no right-minded person (male or female) would ever think it could be. It is a problem in society and it manifests itself in more ways than we appreciate. My own field of interest is human trafficking which is much more common than we might think. During the course if my research I’ve been advised that rapes are often also perpetrated against men, but that the stigma associated with the attack does and hasn’t permitted this to be discussed or acknowledged in society.
I don’t know enough about ‘rape culture’, save that I think it is a poor term, to say more on it. I do know enough to know about sexual violence to know that as a society we share in the problems of humanity and that it is a problem.
This story has NOTHING to do with your reply and there is no comparison. And in my opinion it is a stupid statement where does austerity measures come alongside rape
To be honest using the term rape in that way probably in part proves the point the author is trying to make. Equating cutbacks in government spending to having your body violated in such a horrible way is taking political rhetoric way too far.
Every time I see the word “rape” used to describe what the government is doing, it makes me sad that some people still don’t know what that term really means.
^
I agree the post was entirely inappropriate, but downplaying austerity as mere “cutbacks” isn’t giving the whole picture and ultimately people will lose their lives and livelihoods due it; Austerity doesn’t recover an economy so it will only mean more cuts. A lot of these “cutbacks” disproportionately affect women, too, especially mothers. More women may end up becoming sex workers, crime and therefore rape rates will increase, etc.
I actually had been thinking about parallels between rape culture and the general right wing economic push being felt in europe at the moment, purely by coincidence as I do think rape culture comes mostly from the right wing, patriarchal sphere of thought. However I have refrained from posting about it due to the sheer number of “We should rape that bitch Angela Merkel!” type comments it would have gotten.
A very sad world we live in.
it is a fabrication. it simply means a culture where rape is tolerated and no taken as a serious problem… hence the requirement to lie by the author.
Looks like you bruised a few delicate male egos there Lisa. Good job!
The so called “rape culture” is mainly present in countries where sex is a taboo subject and governments are still trying to control the reproductive organs of its citizens.
Not an good article. Left a bad taste in my mouth.
I didn’t like this article either , felt it was unbalanced . Men too have been victims of sexual assault and sexual violence.
I felt uncomfortable reading it . It didn’t clarify (for me) that Rape or sexual violence has very little to do with sex….It has more to do with a rapist controlling and imposing their will onto another human being. That is in my opinion.
Men on a thread about rape culture showing how completely – intellectually, emotionally and empathetically – bereft male commentors are from critical thinking about women, gender, power and patriarchy.
Feminism wouldn’t need to ‘exist’ if it wasnt for partriachy, but the lads dont see they’ve been fucked up under patriarchy too.
patriarchy.. that’s why we had 21 years of female presidents..
”but the lads dont see they’ve been fucked up under patriarchy too”
fucked by capitalism and greed not an exclusively male problem,
what do suggest we set up a matriarchy 100% female leaders ??
I have to admit I found this article a bit off too.. It seemed less about the subject at hand, rape, and more about defending feminism.. Maybe that’s just how I read it..
Every girl I know who has been raped (which is actually a pretty large number) was raped by a partner or someone she knew – the old random attack in a dark alley is nowhere near as common as this. And this by itself is a far more worrying trend. Why are there any young men out there who do not understand that when your girlfriend is not in the mood / your female friend doesn’t feel the same – you can’t make her? Aren’t we all taught “No means No”? Sadly, I’ve met a few who don’t seem to understand this concept, as have my friends.
I do remember how much I used to hate going out clubbing in Dublin. Being female and dancing in the Kitchen / Switch / Redbox / Point or anywhere else meant that you were guaranteed to have some guy come up behind you and try grinding his bits against your posterior.. There was usually several. By comparison, I used to go over to UK clubs and this did not happen once when I was over there – I never once had to fend off a sleaze ball in the UK, so why did I have to do it here?
Please do not misunderstand me – I know many, many very decent guys who would never dream of behaving this way, and am by no means suggesting that all men fit this category, but sadly we cannot ignore the fact that there are some out there.
Lastly, I take issue with the term feminist for the following reason.. It’s all very well and good to seek equal rights for women, but there are some areas where men’s rights are ignored – particularly fathers. For this reason, I would prefer the term “equalist”. I think feminism has run its course, now it’s time to even the scales all round.
(Sorry, I realise this is a bit all over the place, blame overtiredness – they say it’s on a par with being drunk!)
As an aside… deconstructing the article based on its merits or failures as a piece of writing is really a rather flaccid attempt at dismissing the author’s points while distracting from the crux of the issue.
That a culture of trivialising sexual violence exists (in Ireland and worldwide), evidenced by tomes of recent research on the issue.
And that the terms Feminism has extremely negative connotations. It always has done mind, but mostly because a great many people are threatened into believing feminists want ‘more’ rights, rather than ‘equal’ rights. This is the same of anyone who opposes civil rights. Opponents of racism, LGBTQ rights etc. generally trot out the same tired catchphrases, and more often than not find themselves on the wrong side of history as a result. I find this oddly comforting as the trend suggests that their voices will eventually be drowned out by common sense.
i disagree. i find most people my age (22) have a very respectful attitude to sex snd women. and i frankly feel as an aside that this article is a
yet another feminist ( badly written ) attempt to encourage this notion that feminism in ireland is about equality, when it isnt. it always seems to me to be about fostering this notion that women are the downtrodden party in any issue it touches from rape to sexuality to domestic violence to the workplace, and furthermore attempts to encourage the awarding of more than equal status to women as regards these things. i think the feminist lobby will need to grow up and realise that there are fundamental differences between the sexes. and as such different facets of life and society will be inequal for both.
Sean, am I to understand that you believe that in the case of rape & domestic violence that a women is not ‘downtrodden party’? I offer you the national statistics from the Rape Crisi Network 2010, figures which can be corroborated by An Garda Síochána. http://www.rcni.ie/uploads/RCNINationalRapeCrisisStatisticsAndAnnualReport2010.pdf
I leave the irony of your comment on the quality of the author’s writing open for comment ;)
Heard of patriachy Sean. Id suggest starting there and work your way slowing outwards
“Deconstructing the article based on its merits or failures as a piece of writing is really a rather flaccid attempt at dismissing the author’s points while distracting from the crux of the issue.”
No. Deconstructing the article based on its merits or failures as a piece of writing is whats called critical thinking. Its called counter arguing against what the author is saying. If you don’t agree with the argument she is making, you must deconstruct and analyse the points she makes about the issue in order to put forward your own argument.
Respectfully Val, I was talking about criticising the author for her writing style as opposed to the argument she is putting forward. I agree that the issues need to be deconstructed for a debate to take place.
I think that a lot of men (and women to) have an issue with certain ideas within feminism (or branches of feminism). Look at the disparity of views on pornography. Some feminists (3rd wave) seem fine with it, while a lot think of it as demeaning and objectifying women.
Another one I’ve come across a lot very recently, is that if you hold the door open for some women, it’s seen as polite and chivalrous. However a few times I got my head eaten off me, for “suggesting” that women weren’t strong enough to open the door. This is despite the fact that I open the door for anyone I’m on half friendly terms with.
“Feminism” isn’t one broad doctrine, but it’s referred to as such, which causes huge problems for people (mostly men) who are unfamiliar with it, except about the general idea of advancing women’s rights. I think most people (except this guy clearly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xizWe8Lztlk) agree with that.
That said, I am guilty of making ironic jokes about women’s rights. Probably because I’m in an arts course with 40 girls and six other guys. What can I say, I feel threatened? ;)
I think you have a point although the idea that women who are raped somehow provoked it is a big problem, a recent survey of students found many held this view. The problem is that the person writing this article lumps in something like prostitution which does not have anything to do with her issue. To say prostitution is rape is to downplay just what rape is and to play into rape culture. The writer correctly defines feminism but fails to apply it to her own beliefs.
Good article. We like to think we’re better than the Taliban but here’s a guy saying his girlfriend is ‘irresponsible’ for wearing a dress to work
This is an appalling example of how a woman who was raped was treated by the very system that is supposed to protect her. Ireland of today still treats rape victims with callous disregard while the perpetrators walk away. Be warned this is a horrific story.
Niamh
Maybe I’m missing something here. The article states the three men were acquitted.
The treatment of this woman as portrayed in this newspaper article is outrageous and the account she is reported to have given in evidence at the trial is horrific. I believe that there should be support groups like the Rape Crisis Centre available to help victims with the ordeal of giving evidence in rape trials but there is no account of this being made available to this woman.
There also is no account of the proceedings giving rise to the aquittal of the three men. Were they acquitted because the alleged victim was so upset by the her treatment not to be able to continue with the case, did the trial collapse? Or were they aquitted on the basis of factual evidence to the court? The jury were discharged but the article implies the case resumed the next day taking evidence from a guard and hearing a call from defence council for bail for the accused presumably with the jury absent.
However the case proper resumed the next day the woman having being released from hospital and we are only left to presume that it was before the same jury. The Judge ordered that she be held in custody until she had finished giving evidence and ‘spent the day in the holding cells untill 2pm’ (?) when it was decided she could be released.
That by and large is the account of the court proceedings as outlined by this very poorly written article typical of the Sunday Independent.
This woman’s account of her alleged attack is horrific. The account of her treatment at the hands of the justice system as portrayed by the article is horrific. The three men were acquitted and for such horrific accusations to be made against them is also horrific.
What was the point of this article in the Sindo and who was it deemed to represent? The guilty or the innocent?
John to the best of my knowledge the Rape crisis Center do attend these trials and provide support for these victims. In fact sometimes if it wasn’t for the presence of the RCC more of these trials would collapse. Proving a rape case especially a historic one or one that did not involve physical violence that left obvious marks like date rape is very difficult. The defense will use, as is their right, every move that they can to seek an acquittal for their client. All the defense has to do is sow the seed of doubt in the jury’s mind and they have a fair chance of getting their client off. Having heard some first hand accounts of people involved in this area and how victims are treated it easy to why we have such a low conviction rate.
Agreed, it does throw up more questions than answers. The men were acquitted which is not the same a not guilty. I was more shocked by the treatment the woman received at the hands of justice kearney. This will not encourage women to report cases of abuse to the authoruties. She firstly had to face her ‘ alledged’ attackers in court then point them out. Considering the serious of the allegations this woman should have bee
n in a seperate room. It is no wonder that she attempted suicide. Then to be treated as the criminal. It just beggars belief.
Brian
I agree wholeheartedly with you. My only ambition (as was yours above) in my reply to Niamh was to outline how crap reporting can make matters worse for all concerned in matters like this. I am aware of the brilliant work that the RCC does and support them where I can.
I’m glad you agree Niamh. It is just my belief that this subject is of such extreme importance to everybody that careless reporting setting a gender bias is damaging and unhelpful. A human right is everyone’s right.
Niamh
Sorry to be a bit of a pain with this but an aquittal is the same as a finding of ‘not guilty’ in the Irish courts. Here is an extract from the Bar Council glossary of terms:
”Acquittal: When a person is found not guilty of a crime with which they have been charged. They are said to be ‘acquitted’.”
Not a pain at all. It seems they were acquitted by a jury. As you said this is not a good example of journalism. I have searched for the story online but this is the only link. I still think that the treatment if the woman in the case is barbaric and will put women off reporting abuse and rape and or going to trial.
Absolutely! It is this kind of irresponsible reporting that contributes to that.
The gaurdian are reporting it as a mistrial. Whatever happened the woman deserves to be treated with respect and dignity especially after her.horrific ordeal. I won’t put in alledged’ because it appears to me that the trial collapsed because of the way the woman was treated in court.
Apologies…RETRIAL, not mistrial.
Niamh.
Been doing a bit of digging my self on this case and one thing that strikes me is the level of misreporting. Some newspapers say that the presiding Judge was Justice Paul Carney others say it was Justice Barry White! Now what else can we believe from such careless journalism?
It has just occurred to me why there is so little info relating to this case, I feel like an idiot now. Its because they are hoping for a retrial so there is very little info released for fear of jeopardising the case. I hope this goes to trial and the woman involved is treated better than she has been.
That seems to be it alright Niamh. Doesn’t excuse the sloppy journalism though. I’ve been browsing through the published accounts to date and if what has been published so far is anything to go by the job of the defence in a retrial will be made a lot easier. Thanks to the likes of the Sindo et. al.
I hope it gets a proper hearing too and that irresponsible journalists keep their noses out.
So according to the author we still have some way to go to equality here. She did a good job showing that although she uses the word, she doesn’t actually believe in equality. None of these issues are unique to women. Reading this type of one sided feminist “equality” propaganda reminds me of the sign in George Orwell’s book Animal Farm: “All animals are equal – but some are more equal than others”. So less of the man bashing, and then maybe we can have equality.
Brian
I agree with you that she did not address the issues men may have re the issues of rape,
It is like as if rape / sexual assault only happens to women . I don’t think she was so much ”men bashing” as much as ”men ignoring” .
Some of her comments are strangely juvenile and some what attention seeking such as the following…
”A feminist is simply someone who believes that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men” .Yet in my opinion Jane Austen (author) who lived in the 1700′s was a great supporter of ”feminism”. She did not try to change the world but used her values to work around the constraints of her time . Her books are as valued today as the day they were written and mean just as much,and remen in these novels ,she treated them as she expected to be treated ,equality of mind and spirit .
Almost every woman I know has had either a close encounter of rape or has been raped. My close encounter would have been a rape had it not been for the intervention of men so I’m not casting all men as rapists. But the fear of rape is always present for women. If I was walking home alone on top of worrying about being robbed or beaten up, my greatest fear would be of being raped. The fact that a woman isn’t as biologically strong as most men is a fact. Men are raped too but it is primarily a woman’s fear.
I wish some men would remember that they have mothers, sisters or daughters and they should try to listen to a woman’s point of view without taking it as an attack on them personally.
I also found the article a bit uncomfortable along with some of the comments. I put off making a comment today because it’s uncomfortable to say these things but feckit. I’ve read all of the comments and what is it about an article on a feminine issue that causes such a reaction in men? Why does it raise men’s hackles? If I read an article about men’s rights or male inequalities I wouldn’t feel threatened and would be well able to comment, and have, in their favour without feeling I was on trial.
Because ordinary decent men are made to feel like villains. Sexist generalisations. Daemonising of men for normal behaviour (I’m speaking particularly of yer wan the author talking of how a man courting a woman in a bar, no matter how respectfully and whatnot, is part of a “rape culture”). Throwing the spotlight on difficulties women face while completely ignoring corresponding and equivalent (or indeed, any) difficulties men face. I could go on.
I’m gonna quote Dara Ó Briain here about your “fear of rape” point (he was talking about the ridiiculousness of “fear of crime” statistics) – “Well the fear of a zombie apocalypse is at an all time high but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to happen!”.
You say sexual assault is primarily a feminine issue – well it’s only anecdotal/personal experience but I can count 5 times in the last two years where I’ve received, eh, “unwanted attention” in men’s bathrooms. I’ve also had past partners who deemed it perfectly acceptable for a girlfriend to hit her boyfriend in an argument. So yeah.
When you post something here it’s going to be scrutinised and argued with. Nature of discourse. Get used to it.
I found the article overly feminist as well Muc. That’s what I meant by uncomfortable. I wish we could drop the feminist and just see each other as equally deserving of respect while valuing our differences.
I’m sorry if you don’t like my saying that I’d worry about rape if walking alone. It certainly isn’t a constant worry. Im not a worrier by nature but walking alone at nighttime would cause me some worry. Just thought I’d say it as it’s true. “Unwanted attention” is a given for both sexes I’d say.
Maybe it’s overly feminist because the author is female and can only speak from her point of view? Perhaps you should offer to write one for the Journal from a male perspective?
Jesus Muc. We’d want to watch ourselves. Wouldn’t look good for our credibility if we started agreeing with each other. :P
A rare green thumb from me for that Réada!
Maybe it’s because you’re just so fecking bold Muc. And I don’t mean brave! Try getting in touch with your feminine side… ;)
I cant honestly say I have never read an article that I have disagreed with so much in my entire life! To try to equate a man coming onto a woman as proof that we have a “rape culture” from “overpowering” men in our society is completely way off the mark. And quite frankly, I find it quite offensive. There is a deeply anti-male tone in this article. To even try an claim that certain aspects of male behaviour can lead to the normalisation of rape is way off the mark. I really feel your interpreting things in such a way as to bend them too prove your argument. The man giving out about how his girl dresses is called jealousy, simple as.
And for the record, I fully supported equal rights for women and don’t see feminists as raving looneys, rather an important sections of the wider civil rights movement.
^ “Rape culture” is an important feminist concept. If you disagree with it so much, you probably don’t really like feminists and consider them all loons.
If “rape culture” is an important concept of modern feminism, then modern feminism needs to be completely re-evaluated.
Or maybe you’re actually wrong about something?
leigh, we do not live in a culture that thinks rape is not a serious issue, it is seen as one of the worst crime. therefore we do not live in a rape culture. to say we do is fear mongering and extremely destructive … it also trivializes rape. So even if you only care about women, it is destructive.
Oh don’t feed the troll for gods sake.
He/she has a sad lonely existence and spends all day trolling on emotionally charges stories like this.
Pathetic really.
“This challenges the way I think, therefore it must be a troll”.
I’m sorry but that comment is wilfully ignorant. We do not have anything like a ‘False-rape’ culture and given the statistics of unreported rapes and sexual assaults in this country a comment like that could be seen as dangerous. Find me ONE piece of evidence from the ‘volume of research’ that suggests there is a high volume of ‘false rape’ as you put it as opposed to two individual cases (one of which involved a man with serious mental health issues). I’ll offer you just one of the many, many reports that support the case that support the opposite. Poorly researched? I’m sorry I’d be laughing if this wasn’t so blatantly ridiculous.
Here’s one. I can point you to many more:
http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
I will highlight this paragraph for you: “Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a “proven” rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 “disproved” cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.”
Fantastic. Did you actually read that article or did you just snipe a quick stat froma cached google search?
“This statistic is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, “unfounded.” That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser’s statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false”
Furthermore, based on the more recent stats from Ireland, the majority of cases are viable. Do false accusations happen? Yes. Does they outnumber or even meet the cases of actual rape? No. We live in a society where the justice system is so flawed that anyone who tries to charge another person for rape must go through rigorous questioning, humiliation and often times is described as equal to the crime itself and where convictions for said crimes are few. There is literally no basis for your claim that we live in a ‘false rape’ culture, as even people with actual grounds are too afraid to report it.
And if there IS a proven case of a false rape allegation, then you don’t even need to spend A DAY in prison, like Cara Leonard last week? Sure why would we want to punish behaviour like that? Tolerance of that kind of crme creates the culture he’s talking about
I would suggest that anyone who falsely accuses another person of rape is deeply troubled. And no, I don’t think prison is the right environment for them, not least because of the current problem of overcrowding in the prison system. Furthermore, the fact that rapists themselves can receive suspended sentence without imprisonment, would you suggest that a false claim be treated more severely than a viable one?
Oh so if someone makes a false claim of rape then they have an underlying mental issue and need our support. Is the same not true of someone who commits rape? A normal person wouldn’t do that, after all. It’s easy for you to be so blase. You’re a woman. No-one will ever ruin your life with a simple accusation as happened to, for example, Michael Feichin Hannon. I guess we can only pray his accuser received enough hugz to make her feel better afterwards.
Overcrowding in prison? Now, who does that affect more – men or women? I didn’t call for lenience for rapists, so don’t pretend I did – everyone should face the consequences of their actions.
A false claim be treated more severely than a viable one? Well yes, of course I would suggest that. Why would a viable claim be treated severely?
Charles, I think false accusation of any crime, rape included (or especially?) is a serious offence and it dilutes and undermines genuine cases which in turn make it difficult for others to report. So I take it very seriously. But no, prison is not the right place for them. I don’t support leniency, but possibly a different approach altogether.
Prison, just in my opinion, is for people who have committed serious and violent crimes and as such are a danger to society.
But is IS an act of violence! I’d compare it to paying people to beat someone up – the result on the victim (incarceration) is physical even if you don’t touch them yourself. It’s not good enough to just write them off as needing help, there has to be some responsibility taken.
Actually, I think being lax about punishing false accusation gives credence to the old adage that rape was easy to claim and hard to prove. That particular line of thinking let untold numbers of rapists off. But if there is no real consequence to lying then there is no deterrent – and so it becomes a viable line of thinking
Fair Play Charles Intellectual KO
The ref would have stopped it
You don’t view someone being falsely imprisoned for rape is serious Siobhan? As we know rape is a crime where people presume guilt very quickly and unlike the lie printed by Lisa, people view rape as a horrendous crime, possibly only down from murder.
Your comments on how false rape effect others trying to report, while true, is so typical of feminists(are you one?) . The false accusation is a crime against the falsely accused and that is where the focus should be centred.
in your previous comment you drop another feminist mantra “I would suggest that anyone who falsely accuses another person of rape is deeply troubled” when a woman commits a crime, she is troubled.
YOu have lost any moral credibility here.
it’s not a line of thinking… it’s a fact.
Appalling article, absolute rubbish of the highest order with barely a shred of worth.
Reading this article in isolation I am not suprised by the commentary as the article is “a bit all over the place” as presented. Quoting the example of the guy who is uncomfortable with his girlfriend going to her workplace in a dress could equally be construed as him being “uncomfortable in his own skin” a male issue! However reading this or even being aware of what can only be descibed as “shocking” article as reported in yesterdays Sindo might put a slighly different context on it. If reference to this case had appeared somewhere at the outset then maybe the article might have read differently, an opportunity lost to make a good arguement. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/gangrape-woman-arrested-during-trial-following-overdose-3017017.html
Men are victims of rape as well, notably in prison. But men don’t count as victims, so on T.V. and in films we only ever see this as comedy. That’s your ‘rape culture’, where only women can be victims and all men are guilty by gender.
That’s not true Arch. I’ve never seen male rape on tv been shown as comedic. I would personally find it horrific. Rape of either gender is horrific.
@Réada
Wedding Crashers – Isla Fisher’s character essentially rapes Vince Vaughan’s. Ties him down and everything.
Get Him To The Greek – don’t know the name of the actor but her character’s name is “Destiny”, and she rapes Jonah Hill’s character with a dildo. With him screaming “NO!”, to boot.
Plenty of others. You get the picture.
I haven’t seen either film Muc although the latter sounds terrible and not very funny. There’s not much I’m scared of but sexual abuse of male, female or child terrifies me. I wouldn’t be able to watch any rape scene. Maybe that’s why my husband didn’t suggest either film for us to go see.
I have often agreed with Arch if he raises issues where men are not treated fairly. Just I couldn’t imagine anyone finding male rape comedic.
Well that’s the thing, it’s not presented as rape. In fact, I and the whole cinema found those scenes pretty hilarious. You view it in a certain light when it’s presented as a comedy like that. It’s like a form of slapstick humour. It’s only really upon further reflection that it’s a topic that really shouldn’t be a laughing matter.
It’s a shame because they’re two cracking films apart from that. Among my favourites even, those scenes taken out. I think the problem’s a societal one over a problem with those two specific films. That kind of light-hearted approach to rape of men is very common and, unfortunately, acceptable.
“Mallrats” – the scene at the end where we find out what happedn to Ben Affleck’s character
“Let’s go to Prison” – essentially the whole movie is one long joke about will Arnett being raped
“Dirty Work”, “Bad Santa” ….it’s not just prison movies either, self proclaimed feminist Ellen Page does a bit of raping in “Super” and it’s all supposed to be funny
I remember seeing a comment written by a student on an online forum, and copied it down because I thought it was so hilariously ignorant:
“Last night I went to the bar, and started chatting up this girl. I bought her a few drinks, and we went back to her place because I’d been locked out. I started kissing her in the back of the cab, and we continued making out at in the hallway of her appartment. Then we went up to her bedroom, but just as I was about to pull her panties down, she told me to stop. I laughed and told her to stop being fucking ridiculous. I mean we’d gone this far, might as well go through. So we had sex, and I left early the next morning to go to class. Left my number of course, just in case anything went wrong you know. Then a few days later, I got a phone call off her. Now she’s saying I raped her. It’s absolutely ridiculous of course, I mean how could I have raped her? Slanderous bitch!”
Unfortunately I’ve stopped finding it funny, since I’ve become acutely aware that there are some ignorant guys around the place that would find such behaviour acceptable and normal. It doesn’t help that defense counsel in rape trials often try to play defenses like: “she said no once, but she was only playing hard to get and actually enjoyed it.” It’s gotten to a stage where nothing would really shock me.
Another really depressing joke I’ve heard cracked a number of times: “Statistically, 9/10 people enjoy gangrape.” Having read about the court’s treatment of that poor woman in the Sindo yesterday, who can truly say that there is any humour in it?
I watched “The Quiet Man” on recently and in it John Wayne had to ask for permission to “step out” with Maureen O’Hara. This then involved sitting on either side of a horse drown cart and being chaperoned by the town matchmaker. They were told not to hold hands and not to stray too far from the chaperon least they get notions.
Ah! those were the days.
Brian is that not the.movie where he pulls her hair and twists her arm then forces himself on her :) ah they were the days alright. ;)
TBH Niamh I didn’t see all of it. I did see that in those days the IRA men wore “plus fours” and tam-o-shanters and when two Irish men fight (one of them being an ex-professional boxer ) it goes on for ages and over a distance of about 2 miles without either of them getting cut or bruised! I did like the part where the Catholic priest got his parishioners to cheer on the visiting Protestant Bishop.
Hee hee, ah the god oul days wheremen could beat the shite out of each other and not have a cut or a bruise ;)
Just a few points, a debate should use facts in its construction, which can be independently checked.
The invention of terms, and expression of extreme opinion are rarely a good starting point. Unfortunately this article offers very little else, the merits or not of the subject are done a diservice by this self indulgent rant.
Is the arguement that these alledged “jokes” are widespread? Where is the evidence?
Is the argument that these “jokes” if they exist are thin masks hiding a huge conspiracy to undermine and attack feminism??? really??? again where is the evidence?
Perhaps this article is best used as an example of another “culture”, one where outraged feminist opinion have to be accepted, regardless of facts.
Cheers
exactly HGT
Very good article. Alas the state of society at any given time provokes abnormal behaviour in different groups. It’s vital that we recognise that the only reason for existence is to bonk and die. Nature has ordained it to be so in order to ensure propagation of species. After that if we don’t have rules in place we are simply savages. We will remain in the cave until we start teaching with ‘what it means to be a human being’. Frankly, my dear “there’d be no bad men if there were no bad women’ is an adage that will continue to ring true until then.
”It’s vital that we recognise that the only reason for existence is to bonk and die.” Ardo Ci………
The mind boggles !!!
Amazing what passes for journalism these days. Ive read through this twice but the disjointed narrative and infantile agenda of the author beggars belief.
I know, to be so wrong and so strident… it’s worrying.
Arch – what you are saying is a complete myth and flies in the face of commonsense. Why would a woman make a false accusation of rape knowing how hard it is to get a conviction even in genuine cases? The fact that you can find cases of rape charges being withdrawn does nothing to support your case rather than mine because neither of us know why the charge was withdrawn.
On the subject of child rape you must have noticed how long it has taken for the truth to come out about child abuse in the Church. Why? Because in rape the victim is the one who carries the shame and faces the greatest risk of not being believed. And sadly that also applies to women as rape victims
eh – if i had a euro for every time i’ve had my ass pinched by some lecherous lady in coppers……….
pot kettle black!! and eh ps – do i think that means i’ve been raped??
No, just sexually assaulted. At least as far as the law is concerned.
An article from the gaurdian on the threats of sexual violence and rape received by female journalists and bloggers.
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/05/women-bloggers-hateful-trolling?cat=world&type=article
the area of ‘jokes’ regarding this issue is strangely compelling……
take race, color or creed…..there’s a degree you can make fun of these, without going too far making it offensive to too many people……..most people seem to be able to rate them by degree of offensiveness & comedy simultaneously…….but rape……hmmmmm
rape jokes, are not jokes, because its just not funny
something wrong with people who don’t ‘get’ this.
A lot of commentators in this section seem to be saying that men create and promote a culture where doing violence to women is great fun altogether. Well, I dislike when people post links in the comments section, but it’s the only way to illustrate my point
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/horrible-reactions-to-chris-brown-at-the-grammys
No doubt men are to blame for that too, right? We brainwashed them, didn’t we? Well don’t worry girls! Idiots like these might think hitting women is funny but they think extreme, sexualised torture of men is HILARIOUS! if Ailis McKernan wants an example of people ‘that trivialise and dismiss sexual abuses’ then here’s a great example for her; Over to you Sharon Osborne and your studio full of vicious scumbags…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP4VeMJp9pE
Misandry exists – accept it :(
Nothing stings more when other women defend, trivialise or apologise for violence against women. It’s deeply troubling.
I see a got a thumbs down in less time than it takes for the clip to play……. hmmmm. To paraphrase ‘random’ above, perhaps I damaged a delicate female ego?
Not one word about the mocking of a victim of extreme, sexualised torture?
Charles I just watched that through and I find those women (both in the audience and on the panel) repulsive. There is nothing funny or trivial about genital mutilation, for any reason. And I may say that none of those morons are representative of feminism. Their comments were unprofessional and irresponsible.
Cheers Siobhan, i find them repulsive too but I wouldn’t call them repulsive women I’d call them repulsive people. I may sound like Im splitting hairs but I think it’s what grates about modern feminism – the tendency to view people as belonging to groups they were born into, instead of seeing them as individuals.
Charles. My son brought that to my attention last night actually and we were talking about the double standards. It sounds absolutely disgusting. Just like a lot of the comments here in fact. I can’t understand why people can’t take facts presented to them without feeling that their gender is under attack.
Re the thumbs maybe some felt the need to thumb down re the content of the link rather than your comment.
@Réada @Siobhan
Well that’s what’s wrong with feminism isn’t it, those double standards. Not once have I heard a prominent feminist speak out against discrimination against men and I could almost guarantee that neither of you ever paused to consider the equivalent difficulties facing men until it’s pointed out to you – at which point the typical feminist merely pays lipservice to it and forgets about it quickly.
That’s my problem with feminism, not that I “feel threatened” by it (as some people have bizarrely claimed) but that feminists are only concerned with women’s issues while masquerading as lobbyists for gender equality. Only interested in equality from a female perspective, sexual violence when it’s against women, prostitution when it involves women, rape when the victim’s female and combating sexism only when men are the perpetrators.
It’s that hypocrisy of feminism that drive me up the wall, never mind being (falsely) generalised and portrayed as some sort of patriarchal misogynistic violent monster because I was unlucky enough to be born into the wrong 49% of the population, a very small minority of whom engage in such activities mentioned above.
/rant
@Siobhan
Also, had a wee look at your Facebook profile there. Nice cover photo. “Here’s your sammich!” with a raised fist. Promoting domestic violence are we? Well that sure adds integrity to everything you’ve posted here.
Muc Beag II, first off let me say I think it’s a little inappropriate to facebook stalk somone they see on a comment thread. Secondly, I believe that’s the Wonder Woman comic cover you’re referring to, which references the ‘make me a sammich woman’ meme which was bandied about the internet. I think you know from my comments (and from my twitter stream @imisaninja if you’d like to stalk that too in search of some evidence against me) that I abhor violence. I swear, a lot and I have a wicked sense of humour for sure. But I dn’t joke a bout rape, or sexual violence of any kind. But please, feel free to keep trollin’ :)
Muc Beag, I have nothing to hide but I expect people to respect my right to privacy. However, I thank you for bringing it to my attention. I am still getting to grips with the new Timeline format on Facebook so I’ll take a good look at it later. I have to wonder about the courage of your convictions, however, as you hide your face and use a pseudonym. Are you worried people will recognise you and be surprised at your opinions?
Sort of. I think using a pseudonym gives you a bit more freedom to say whatever the f*ck you like and I think that results in a better standard of discourse. You can play Devil’s Advocate without unfavourable opinions, for example, coming back to bite you in the ass in a job interview later in life. My opinions are also subject to change, and I don’t like the idea of anything I say being entered into a form of permanent public record that is this site/the internet in general. To be honest, I’d recommend anyone posting on these kind of websites use one.
On a personal level though, between mates and family like, I am quite open about my opinions on this subject.
I hope it goes without saying that I didn’t intend to invade your privacy – I do make certain assumptions, more so with Twitter than Facebook, that if people post here then what’s posted on their profile publicly is also for the consumption of the world at large. I’m not some sort of stalker bogeyman. Hell, I can be fairly sure I’m not even in the same country (an emigrant am I!).
The vast majority of feminists don’t endorse violence towards men, and importantly, female sexual violence towards men isn’t joked about on the same level the reverse is. It also doesn’t happen near as often.
Well that’s not exactly true, it does. I mentioned below the male rape scenes in the two comedies “Wedding Crashers” and “Get Him To The Greek”. It’s so rife that we’re so used to it and barely notice. Similar situation with domestic violence where it’s portrayed as humorous when men are the victims – leading to male victims have to overcome the shame when seeking shelter for such violence.
I’m not saying that the equivalent with women doesn’t exist, I just don’t want us to overlook the male victims when we present rape, sexual violence and domestic violence as solely “women’s issues”. They’re not.
Leigh Walsh; “female sexual violence towards men isn’t joked about on the same level the reverse is.”
Congratulations on the least accurate comment of the day
can you not believe in equality AND laugh at rape jokes?
I will laugh at rape jokes when our prosecution rate increases ( which is the worse in Europe) and when the number of rapes decreases( it was been increasing over the last few years). When I can no longer know that most of the wonderful women in my life have endured rape or sexual assault and I don’t have to worry about it happening to my daughter and her having to suffer legal system.
Lisa, thank you for a well written piece that points out a sad and dangerous development in our society. I think it is a global problem though, rather than an Irish one.
Rape culture is an oxymoron. The idea that any normal person would equate something as vile as rape, with something that is celebrated, locally or nationally, as positive, is an anathema to any normal thinking person. To spuriously conjoin, two disparate aspects of human nature, is disingenous to say the the least. The only culture that would endorse rape as culture, is a psychopathic culture. The fact that there are minority elements within our societies, that do indeed aspire to achieve these twisted ideals, is proof that these predators walk amongst us. The divisive arguements that appear to surface between men and women are really a distraction. Yet again, the real arguement is between humans and psychopaths.
Respectfully, the meaning of culture in this instance is “the behaviours and beliefs characteristic of a particular social group” as opposed to something which is ‘cultured’
In this meaning, culture is not solely positive, it most definately includes negative aspects.
@muck beag ii. “yer wan”? Seriously? You’re obviously mr rape culture if you think girating against an unknown woman while she dances is respectful behavior. You’re nearly funny with that comment.
Disappointed I was only “nearly funny” but I’m glad that you (sort of) see that the “yer wan” comment was deliberately tongue-in-cheek. You clever man, Willy.
When did I say I thought that that above was respectful behaviour? I seriously take issue with that, I’m a gentleman! I wasn’t defending sneaking up and groping some woman as “respectful behaviour”. It’s not, and that’s self-evident. I WAS saying that approaching a strange woman and striking up (can’t believe I have to use these words but) mutual and consensual conversation is not me promoting “rape culture”. That’s ridiculous.
Reminds me of the arch-Feminist Germaine Greer explaining how young girls are taught to flirt and to base their self-esteem on their attractiveness by their fathers kissing them goodnight. I find it disturbing and unnatural to think in such ways.
Again my comment was deleted!! Like i said before the only ‘Rape culture’ that exists in Ireland is that blessed on us by the catholic church!!
Would someone enlighten me here… My Facebook profile is locked down (or so I thought). And is inaccessible to people who are not connected to me directly or connected to friends. Yet a commenter here was able to access it. As an experiment, would someone try to look at my Facebook page and tell me what you see? Much appreciated.
Not locked Siobhan. Sorry. ;)
Thanks Réada, it’s not a big deal really. I’m just trying to get to grips with privacy settings for the new timeline format. Appreciate the head’s up :)
If ur web bar reads https then its secure. Also if you google ur name and ur facebook page comes up as a result its not secure. Feckin facebook privacy sucks.
I haven’t got timeline yet on my profile so not sure, but pretty sure that the cover photo’s always going to be public. But either way you go to the drop down menu in the top right corner, then “Privacy Settings”, then “Custom”. You can then change each individual aspect of your profile and decide exactly what is visible to who, whether it be the public, friends or specific lists of friends.
To be sure, view your own profile while signed in and click “View As” in the top-right corner of your profile and you can view it as a friend or as public – so you can confirm you have your settings right.
And to be clear, I didn’t “access” your profile – that suggests I hacked it. I merely clicked on your (hyperlinked) name here and saw what you had set as public. Hope this clears up any ill-feeling.
There’s no ill feeling, on that score at least. There’s nothing online which I feel ashamed about and I stand by most of my opinions (unless of course I’ve changed my views on something having learned more about it, Foxconn and Apple for example). I’m happy that any future employer will find me a passionate individual who believes in equal civil rights for everyone, though they may be put off by the fact that I have a tendency to swear like a sailor.
horse shite pure and other horse shite
Fair point. As an aside, Abigail Rieley (abigailrieley.com) has an interesting article on the recent Paul Carney rape controversy. She points out the need for a new look at sentencing and also some of the reasoning behind what looked at first like a prime example of inhumane misogyny.
Rape culture means a society that accepts rape like it’s not a big deal. So no we don’t have a rape culture.
Re jokes etc. rape jokes about men are perfectly acceptable … in media, comedies, you often here jokes about men being raped in jail… often by gleeful women. The fact you can’t see this Lisa shows how brainwashed people have become with constant man hating and bot shaming feminist spite filled propaganda.
You actually don’t see what is right there. Sharon Osbourne and her entire panel laughing their asses of about a man having his penis cut off and thrown in the garbage disposal… the whole crowd cackling away!
If there is an acceptance of rape, it is male rape, that is joked about and threatened without any reservation. But this is somehow a blind spot for your.
“I believe that it’s definitely just a case of misdirection and misinformation that has created this fear of feminism” We agree on that, feminism has created so many myths, lied and exaggerated about rape to keep the industry going. Feminism is the most toxic ideological movement in society, in fact it is not even an ideology any more… it’s an industry that needs women to believe we have a rape culture even though you would need to be an utter moron to believe we do … we accept male rape jokes yes and completely accept male rape in prison ( in the U.S. mostly) .
You know that 1 in 4 stat for women being sexually assaulted in american colleges includes sex engaged in after your boyfriend pestering you to have sex and definitions that would mean anyone who has been in a long term relationship will likely experience. I have been raped by their standards. This shows feminists, yet again distorting fact, misinforming people to make them believe rape is epidemic. What do you say to that Lisa?
There is no rape culture, feminism created the myth, like the wage gap that Obama knowingly lied knowingly about! that is how far it reaches! Domestic violence is not a gendered crime, almost all the independent resent research that the feminists didn’t manage to stop through threats, killing dogs (as with Erin Pizzy) show this, but feminism has blocked the truth about male and child victims of female abusers!!!! Feminism has no place in a civil society.
Excellent column well done. If anyone on here feels like talking to a kindly non-judgemental voice, please tweet us at @AngelRecovery1. We will tweet back. Healings and blessings to everyone.
angelR, lying about something like this is so destructive. for a group, a support group, to support a lie is beyond reprehensible. there is no rape culture, rape is viewed as one of the worst crimes imaginable. so no rape culture.
To solve an issue, you have to identify it correctly. You are insuring rape is dealt with ineffectively, victims are doubted and a general suspicion of women will arise in society and we will end up with a culture that doesn’t care about rape. Well done.
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