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Opinion The disparity in third level participation should make us angry

It is unacceptable that Dublin school leavers from affluent areas are six times more likely to continue to third level education than their counterparts.

IT REALLY DOES make me angry when I see the disparity in third level entry from affluent and working class areas. A Higher Education Authority (HEA) report released today shows breaks down participation in third level across postal codes: D17 comes in at 15℅ and D10 at 16% compared to D4 at 84% and D6 at 99%.

I don’t have the numbers of how many individuals these figures represent or how many Leaving Certificate students there were in each area. What I will say is that Ireland’s youth unemployment, as of July 2014 stood at 23.20%.

The percentages of third level attendees, above, do not account for those who have decided to attend PLCs (Post Leaving Certificate) institutions, it also doesn’t account for those who are heading into the skilled labour force (trades), both of which are excellent ways to continue in education and to formulate careers.

The rest, it’s safe to assume, are heading into the workplace. But what percentage of these have employment that they took up in school and plan to continuing? What percentage have jobs lined up? What percentage are about to enter a workplace where, increasingly, a third level qualification is a minimum requirement for employment?

Here are a few points I’d like to make after seeing the HEA report.

  1. There is something radically wrong with the education system in Ireland when variations like this can occur in a county of approximately 1.3 million people
  2. The system is simply not working for working class areas
  3. Ireland’s education system is not as healthy as the Government like to make out in the international arena
  4. People of lower means are being worst hit by cuts imposed upon the education department budget.

What I would like to see:

  1. A full and comprehensive study to be carried out to determine why there are such stark differences between adjacent areas of Dublin and, furthermore, across the island of Ireland
  2. The education minister, Jan O’Sullivan, needs to take the lead in initiating programmes to help those who are currently in the system, and soon to join it, in achieving better outcomes from their five to six years of secondary schooling (primary education also needs to be tackled)
  3. The people of the areas of Dublin with figures below the national average, standing in and around the 50% mark, need to expect more from their politicians, institutions, teachers and fundamentally the youth of the area. I say this not to point blame at the children experiencing this obviously flawed system, but as the quickest way to amend the issue.

What it all boils down to is this: when your son or daughter hands in the last paper of their Leaving Certificate, they either have every possible option in front of them or their options are severely limited. I, for one, would rather set up a child for the former rather than the latter.

Keet Wilson is set to return to BCFE to complete a degree in Media Production Management that he ran away from in 2010. In the interim he traveled for mostly selfish reasons, occasionally as an artist tour manager. For the most part you’ll find him pulling pints in Vicar St, or coffee crawling his way around Dublin City. Twitter
@keetwilson

Read: 99% of young adults in D6 go to college, just 15% in D17

Opinion: The CAO system can clearly be gamed, and it’s perpetuating disadvantage

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    Mute Alan O'connor
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:11 PM

    The most crucial thing in education is parental involvement and interest. It makes absolutely NO difference what all other stakeholders contribute. If the parents don’t care then the child is on trouble.

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    Mute Matt Connolly
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:32 PM

    Dead right. Fees are not the issue. Thankfully we have a system where the financially disadvantaged can avail of free tuition. Attitude (personal and family) is probably the biggest factor, but oddly enough, “following the crowd” may also have a lot to do with it too. If a teenager lives in an area where the majority of his/her peers are going to college – they’ll be more likely to go too, same applies to areas where the majority do not pursue 3rd level education.

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    Mute John Michael
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    Aug 20th 2014, 6:12 PM

    Many parents do care but haven’t got the money to put their children through college. It mightn’t be the only factor but it is definitely the biggest.

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    Mute selita
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:19 PM

    In the dublin 17 area, people have access to numerous PLC colleges, Colaiste Dhulaigh, being closest, than a short bus ride to Kilester college, Grange college, Marino College, Plunkett College and White Hall college. In terms of University, the 27 bus goes past Trinity college and some of the DIT colleges, and can get 2 buses to DCU.
    In terms of investment, there is huge investment in school completion in the area, and the Northside partnership has an education fund that students can access. Most students in the area are also eligible for HEAR, which means lower points entry in to university. As many families are on low incomes, unemployed they are eligible for grants and free fees. In Darndale, for example, there is an organisation the provides FREE grinds to leaving cert students

    Take a place like Leitrim, where there is very very limited public transport, no ITs or University, the nearest IT is in sligo or letterkenny and the nearest university is Galway. Young people from there have to move or get a car, yet there is nearly 60% go on to college. There is huge unemployment in leitrim

    The issue is culture, and a respect for education. As i mentioned a student from Dublin 17 have numerous educational centres within only a few miles and a regular public transport system. There is numerous grants available, there are home school liason officers, school completion co-ordinators in the schools in the area, all offering support to access these grants.
    These areas are so closed and insular, i believe there are actually too many supports, meaning people never have to leave their little area.

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    Mute Sorcha Cristin Whelan
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:18 PM

    Brilliant point.

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    Mute ©JP Foley
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:34 PM

    I come from a poor background where my Dad never earned much or what he did he drank it. My mum worked a low paying job in a factory to just make ends meet. I come from rural Roscommon. My relatively poor background didn’t stop me getting my degree and a good career. I wanted to do it for me not to replicate what I grew up with. I moved to Galway so grants helped a bit and I worked all holidays and weekends to supplement that and my mum helped every way she could. I apppreciate an education. The Grant helped and is available to those who qualify, not just because people are from the country.

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    Mute Tony
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:16 PM

    Good on you JP Foley, you have the correct attitude and determination .

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    Mute ©JP Foley
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:28 PM

    And my younger sister is is doing even better than me. Your background will only hold you back if you let it.

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    Mute Pedant Engineer
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:17 PM

    I would contend that much of the problem lies with the individuals rather than areas: I was born in D1; I continue to live in D1. I hold a BE (Hons) and a PhD. Three if my siblings hold higher degrees too (an MLitt, another PhD and an architect with a Part Three (Professional Practice qualification).) Custom and tradition (albeit the “who cares about education” line) in certain geographical areas are probably more to blame than lack of resources or poor government action.

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    Mute selita
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    Aug 20th 2014, 7:58 PM

    Completely agree, I come from a rural background…parents who worked hard for little money and who both had to leave school at 13. There was no money in the pot for us to go to college but we worked our arses off to get where we are and to get our degrees. one of my brothers lived in a 3 bed house with 9 lads to save on rent and bills, and as we all worked weekends and away from home for about 7 years we were only together xmas day!! Our driving force was to not to have to work as hard as our parents and to make them proud of us. It really annoys me when people from Dublin going to college in Dublin moans about the cost of college, Dublin should have the highest participation rates with all the major colleges and transport system

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    Mute sWwt4uXh
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:38 PM

    Who’s options are limited? Access to third level education is ubiquitous throughout Ireland thanks to the grant scheme. The obvious reasoning behind the disparity is that they simply aren’t bothered going to college. Their parents aren’t encouraging them, and the culture that exists is either to start working or go on the dole. There are plenty of things worth getting angry over, but this isn’t one of them.

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    Mute Michael Carty
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:01 PM

    Possibly the worst written article I’ve read. Lacking any substance. As someone here already said , the problem is the culture in these areas and the parents. There is little politicans can do about this. Every country has this issue. Would like to have heard some solid recommendations rather than suggest research into the causes of the problem

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    Mute Karl Neff
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:15 PM

    Great article. I think that any study on this area will find that income disadvantage & cultural bias are the two most important factors. Young people in D6 are more likely to live in higher income homes than those in D15, and are more likely to live in a home where third level education is prioritized & encouraged. If your family think third level is a good idea, and most of your friends are going, you’ll probably go yourself. If you (& your family) can afford it.

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    Mute Francis J. Underwood
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:35 PM

    Hard work and study is a tedious in d4 as it is in d17……fail to prepare, prepare to fail !!!

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    Mute Killjoy The Second
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    Aug 20th 2014, 9:43 PM

    And you should never slap a man while he chews tobacco!

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    Mute Vanessa Mooney
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:33 PM

    It is all about the parents
    If your parents are not willing to support you and encourage then you have no hope
    Sadly this is the case in many working class families

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    Mute Battler Ushiromiya
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:48 PM

    Any area that is classed as ‘disadvantaged’ automatically ticks a box on the big list of possible access programmes offered by many 3rd level institutions, including the very best ones. This goes double if you are from a low-income household, triple if you are from a minority that is under-represented at university.

    In addition to this there is the grant, which for all its flaws and bureaucracy is still available to low income families. There is also the possibility of doing PLC courses as a stepping-stone into certain courses, which caters to certain students who have talent but might not be the best at racking up CAO points. Furthermore, all of this is available to everyone regardless of geography.

    Not every disparity is due to good old Irish incompetence, shocking as it may seem. This is a complex issue.

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    Mute Diarmuid
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:27 PM

    Ireland has a high percentage of school leavers going to third level by international standards, much higher than the UK for example. This should be recognised and celebrated, but obviously improved upon as much as is feasible.

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    Mute Richard O'Rourke
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:38 PM

    We also have the highest degree attainment rate in the EU. A lot done, more to do!

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    Mute Inntalitarian
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    Aug 20th 2014, 8:37 PM

    This is not necessarily a good thing. I would think it has a lot to do with the dumbification of degrees and an oversupply of courses in certain fields.

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    Mute Jay Christo
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:57 PM

    The author himself calls some areas “working class” but is shocked and appaled that there are differences between areas, ridiculous article.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:11 PM

    well read the comments section on the last article about this and youll get a picture, no million euro study needed

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    Mute Stephen Kearon
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:36 PM

    At one level it’s hardly surprising the children of parents who work for a living are more likely to go to college, than the kids of parents who have never worked

    The dole for life mentality is destructive and needs to be tackled

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    Mute James Conway
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:40 PM

    Great to see so many sensible and rational responses to this poorly thought out and written article.

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    Mute Anne Marie Devlin
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:49 PM

    Please please stop equating success with university. Not everyone needs or wants it. We have an extremely fair system here where every institute is open to every student. Probably need to focus on better quality plcs

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    Mute Kev O'D
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:02 PM

    Why should this make us angry ? This is hardly new , Its how it is all over the world.

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    Mute Brian Johnson
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:02 PM

    Really every year this stupid subject gets aired and nothing changes and next year it’ll be aired again.We all know that the working class areas will have a lower 3rd level entrance stat.

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    Mute Chris Mansfield
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:47 PM

    Has anyone actually checked the data for the 99% figure.

    It seems extraordinarily high considering there will always be some pupils with learning disabilities etc.

    IIRC the highest from any individual school was in the low 90s and that was from Glenstal, which is in Limerick anyway.

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    Mute Sheik Yahbouti
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:43 PM

    I would have thought it equally unacceptable that virtually anyone from a rural area can be grant aided to attend Third level education whereas the same facility is not, and has never been, available to huge swathes of the Dublin population. My own brother, through incredible sweat and toil, has put three through university, without a cent in grant aid. Before anyone jumps to say, why doesn’t everyone do that, he is the exceptional in that regard.

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    Mute sWwt4uXh
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:46 PM

    I’m from the middle of nowhere and I never got a grant, same goes for plenty of others.

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    Mute Peter King
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:47 PM

    The grant system is based on what the parents earn not where they come from.

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    Mute UM
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:38 PM

    Nobody gets a grant because they’re from a rural area. If only we did. We also have the added expense of accommodation. Check your facts before having a go at rural dwellers.

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    Mute Miriam Kane
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    Aug 20th 2014, 5:55 PM

    I agree that there is something amiss in th system. However u have not mentioned the impact an importance of parental help an encouragement in their children’s education.

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    Mute Emer Byrne
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    Aug 21st 2014, 6:34 PM

    As I teacher of students from the D17 area (so yes, the low figures are all my fault!!), I’d like to take a moment to congratulate the 15% of students going to university and their families. It’s not easy to stand out on your own and “be a nerd” and study for the points needed when your peers aren’t. It’s not easy to keep a child going with enough interests to give them out of trouble and give them confidence to stand tall in university environment where rightly or wrongly they feel people will be looking down their nose at them.
    Also massive congratulations to the many students from this area that are the first in their family to do their leaving cert and to the huge percentage that have been accepted to PLC courses.

    It’s these students who will inspire those around them and next year hopefully we’ll have 16% and then 50% and so on.

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    Mute Cpm
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    Aug 20th 2014, 4:30 PM

    OK!!

    GRRRRRRR!!!!

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    Mute Margaret Doyle Hanley
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    Aug 21st 2014, 4:33 PM

    The research is skewed because Rathmines in D.6 is known as flat land. Students (lots of students) get flats in this area.

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