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AS THE GOVERNMENT returns from its ever-shorter summer holiday the kite flying kicked off in style, with talk of an election following on from the need for more cuts in the health budget. Backbenchers and officials in the Labour party began to vent their frustration in the general direction of Minister Reilly and Fine Gael in general.
The health service, unsurprisingly given the inconvenient tendency of Irish people to be mere mortals, is running over budget and needs to make further cuts before the end of the year to stem the bleeding. In response we hear wailing and gnashing from Labour, a party whose solution to said problems – if they could bother to advance one – would never involve anything like cutting spending in some other department to make up the shortage.
As I’ve remarked many times, for a period of great national struggle the quality of our politics has been disappointingly mediocre. Fianna Fáil has been sitting on the sidelines chucking rocks at many individual decisions the government has made and Labour has been jumping around on the hot coals of hard decision making; all the while Fine Gael has been acting the arrogant aunt and ministers have been stabbing one another in the back while claiming full support for one another.
The only reason the Labour Party ought to be in this government is so as to earn ministerial pensions and kudos for its almost geriatric leadership on their last lap around the Dáil bar. The party wants to meet the laudable goal of retaining social spending programs whilst maintaining the laughable position of refusing to make targeted cuts to government bureaucracy.
There are very few ways to square the circle of Labour’s ambitions with the hard economic facts of being a bankrupt nation. A party unwilling to make hard choices can’t make any good choices in a government trying to navigate its way through an IMF bailout.
The Labour party is better at complaining about cuts in opposition than it is in implementing them in a structured fashion whilst in government. The sum total of their solutions when out of government is the usual vague malarky about better management; and their modus when in government is to keep proposing tax increases while going along with the decisions they found so reprehensible in the past.
Fianna Fáil on the other hand is a party that implemented some damn tough policies when in government but now has no problem in showing the gumption to complain about almost every individual decision of the current government. The party has to generally support the bailout, but from hospitals to fuel taxes the party seems to have developed the magical insight of opposition to make perfect policies now that they can’t execute any of them.
The party that signed us up to 23 per cent VAT in the bailout agreement danced a jig when the current government implemented the change in one year rather than over two. Big deal, it was a crappy policy either way. The same Fianna Fáil that gave us the income levy and tourist tax on incoming flights to Ireland complains that we should lower fuel taxes, an idea that – in all honesty – Fianna Fáil in government would have fobbed off from Fine Gael and Labour in opposition.
Fine Gael are playing politics with many decisions and poorly executing many policies. When in opposition they were just as perfect in their decision making as Fianna Fáil and others are today.
Labour is incredibly uneasy in government, and trying to implement policies in the framework of fiscal control that left wing parties find such an anathema to their thinking. They’re a blockage to some key reforms that would enable the country to cull bureaucrats and pay more nurses, and they are creating uncertainty with a student-union maturity level in some of the politicking they are undertaking.
To compound things, the Labour party has opposition moving into its territory as the left wing party of choice. Sinn Féin, in particular, unencumbered with the strains of actual decision making (in the Republic, at least), is eating into the pie of voters who believe in endless pots of money hidden down back gardens in Dublin 4.
For their own sake as well as the country, Labour should go back to where it belongs: Safely ensconced in opposition where they can never be wrong and they can fight the good socialist fight alongside (and against) all those usurpers.
In their place Fianna Fáil should step up and do the honourable thing of supporting the baby they conceived through their incompetence. If they and Fine Gael could only grow up and show their age as statesmanlike parties of power, rather than civil war opposition, then we could likely see the kinds of decisions that both parties prefer to make when in power (as opposed to their fantasies when in opposition). Then we can get some decisive movement in government to break the paralysis of a coalition that will supposedly save the country whilst raising no taxes and cutting no spending.
It would only take two things to happen for this to become a reality: Firstly, the Labour party should get sense: The only time they ought to be in government is during good times when they can blow endless wads of money on silly big government programs without anybody caring (aka, what Fianna Fáil did in government).
Secondly, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil should stop playing politics, man up and take control of the destiny of the country. Fianna Fáil by coming back into the fold of supporting the kinds of hard decisions it had to make only a year and a half ago; and both parties by putting aside their mutual electioneering instincts to run against one another all of the time.
Leave the left to their fantasies in opposition; let Fine Gael play their role as the saviour of the nation; and make Fianna Fáil continue to take responsibilities for their failures by signing their names to each and every policy implemented in the name of our bailout.
Aaron McKenna is a businessman and a columnist for TheJournal.ie. You can find out more about him at aaronmckenna.com or follow him on Twitter @aaronmckenna.
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I just vommited into my own mouth, lets get real neither of them should be allowed near the Dail.
Into who’s mouth would you normally vomit?
I know the feeling. The thought of having the grubby thieves of FF near power again sickens and frightens me. They are too corrupt, too greedy. Every party has corrupt and bent members, FF seems to have nothing but. Every FF leader in 30 years has stood down in shame. Look at their justice Ministers over the last 30 years, look at how they as soon as in start to blatantly direct contracts and jobs to party members and donors. The day that FF become electable again is the day the countdown to the next economic collapse has begun. It’s what they do.
FF. A party for thieves, voted for by fools and filled with traitors.
The only thing that FF and FG should be in………is the local welfare office signing on for jobseekers benefit because they certainly don’t deserve to be allowed destroy this country any more than they already have!
This is why this country is f@cked , because of collective stupidity like this , response, of course they should come together they there are two sides of the same coin, who said you should vote for them??? This country need to vote on centre right versus left wing politics , at least them we get what the majority actually vote for , not this mish mash crap we have now
Then why in the name of jaysus did anyone vote for either of them?
Thomas:
Wrong question. The question you SHOULD be asking is, why are people -still- voting for them (last opinion poll put them at over 31% and labour at 11%, which makes the coalition the leading party).
The question I should ask is, what are you going to do about it?
I remember trying to explain Irish politics to a British friend trying to explain that Fianna Fail is the Irish Conservative Party and Fine Gael is the Irish Conservative Party and the only real difference between them is the side their grandfathers fought on in the civil war. I cannot for the life of me fathom the idealogical difference’s between the two modern parties
fg is slightly more christiany and farmery! ff is slightly more bildery
I can only assume your British friend had similar difficulty explaining the difference between the Conservative Euroskeptics and BNP.
Fianna Fail was traditionally the party of the farm labourer with Fine Gael the party of the land owner. Thats why Bertie said once that Fianna Fail wee ” a socialist party” tongue in cheek. There is very little difference between them now.
I’m not sure how you see both parties as Irish conservative parties. While both parties have tended to socially conservative positions, economically both presided over constantly expanding government and tended to advance social democratic policies rather than Tory-like fiscal conservatism.
Bertie Aherne boasted his socialist credentials on numerous occasions.
Bah ha ha! Fianna Fáil a socialist party and Bertie Aherne having socialist credentials? You’re having a laugh!
Neither have any ideology from what I can see. Power maybe.
Fine Gael at best are a Blairite Social Democratic party. Fine Fail a catch-all, lowest common denominator social democratic party. Any notion of fiscal conservatism would be foreign to both.
“Like me, Lemass was a practical socialist”
Bertie Aherne
“We are neither servants of the right nor prisoners of the left. We are the pragmatists of the centre. Whatever is in the best interests of the people of this country we will do. We are not the slaves of any ideology.”
Charlie Haughey
Flouride must be getting to some journalism,here’s an idea banish ff,fg and labour,they don’t represent the interest of the people anymore,we need to set up a new party that listens to its supporters and properly represent us
Set up a new party? The current paries claim to represent the people, who is to say that a new party won’t in fact be more of the same.
Then do it! I’m sick of hearing people moan about the state of Irish politics but not actually doing anything about it! If you think we need a new party-start one!
James it is set up its called “sli nios fearr “.a jobs inative being put forward next Thursday
Sli Nios Fearr ( – a better way) Dublin meeting a Messers Maguire’s this Thursday 7.30. Networking through-out Ireland. Main website http://www.slo-nios-fearr.com, facebook.com /sliniosfearr New Enterprise and Jobs initiative report launched in Dublin this Thursday too. What needs doing isn’t rocket science, but if we really want this crowd out by next election come join in, we’ve a job to be doing.
No @Martin, what needs doing isn’t rocket science, but are you prepared to stand up to the Troika and inform them that the Irish people have already paid more than their fair share in the bailout process and that they can shove any further “Austerity” up their backsides.
Good luck with that.
Hi Hugh, the simple answer is YES – well prepared for that. And also realise that one element if the Trioka is taking us for the real ride of a life time. It’s hoped the brief on jobs and enterprise being published on Thursday will illustrate both where the money we do spend is going down the plug hole; and also more constructively where and how we should concentrate those precious euro’s in future.
the sub heading of the article is wrong. the two largest parties are in government.
My thoughts too!
If anything Fianna Fail are a small parties these days.
Right of course Kevin – it was a historical reference but naturally not the case any more. I’ve amended the subhead accordingly. Thanks!
Lol, the Journal trolling their readers! I love it!
Don’t feed the trolls!
They do not represent the people anymore. Will never vote for them again.
Exactly how I feel Martin. None of them have any interest in the ordinary people of Ireland. So why should we support them with our vote.
Personally I grew up with FF in power. Was eager to vote them out esp after the bank guarantee. Like others wanting change, transparency and a real alternative I voted for FG but they have failed to deliver any of their pre election promises. Time up, they had their chance. I will not vote for them again…which leaves me with ind and SF. They have never been in government so how can people assume they know what their policies will be, only time will tell. The electorate are far from pleased with the current situation and the lack of progress at all! Either a new party to take the ‘sloppy’ votes or people will inevitably vote SF. IMHO. The only way to hold parties responsible for their corruption, lies, deceit is not to vote for them again. Tides are turning on Irish politics, interesting to see who will actually hold the helm next GE. Either way my vote will not tick either FG/LAB/FF ever again.
@Ryan, you have really done it this time ,how dare you talk about Mick ( the Internet policeman ) Collins FG like that he’ll be on here in a minute giving you what for !!!!
You mean speak the truth on the dole?! Like the ordinary decent voter that lives in the real world……mick can do a greens. FG have done nothing but let the electorate down. My distain for FF is equal to that of FG!
Hear hear Ryan , some people just don’t see the woods for the trees ….
So two parties that have proved incompetent, at the kindest, and greedily corrupt at the unkindest, should be a coalition? Er…
FF & FG should be in opposition.
Better still they should merge. They are the flip sides of the same coin.
So why do people vote for them if they should be in opposition?
Why would a political party stop playing politics? Fianna Fail are right where they want to be and they made a mistake of trying to stay in power for too long last time after the economy tanked. Let Fine Gael and Labour self destruct and Sinn Fein is always going to have a ceiling in the near future so by default Fianna Fail is going to end up back in power sooner than people imagined.
Is it even fair to call FF a political party, every other party has some core beliefs at its heart. FF does not, it will change beliefs. The only belief they have is to get elected and get power. FF have no more interest in politics than any other crime gang in this country, its just a collection of individuals who are working in co-operation to enrich themselves.
The same can be said for FG Ruiri the slight difference is FG are gangsters to EU. At least FF were corrupt from within the country with FG all our voices are slowly being eroded from Europe. Which IMHO is more damaging.
ruairi, all parties act the same.
Bruce,
Not all parties. SF have principles unlike FG/FF/LAB
SF ‘principles’? As in supporting the murder of fellow citizens, the bombing of innocent children and the slaughter of our Gardai and soldiers?
Not to mentioned two faced economic policy of objecting in the South to the very same fiscal adjustments they happily implement in the North
SF are solely interested in SF
SF didn’t oppose those fiscal adjustments as you put it. They were imposed by London – NOT by SF.
Your lack of excuses other than resort to the civil rights era exposes you as an old worn-out cliche.
Sinn Fein’s €1 million worth of secret US donors.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/loophole-allows-sf-to-keep-1m-us-donors-secret-3095278.html
“The Northern Ireland executive has announced £400 million cuts in public services, and the threat of water charges looms. Sinn Féin ministers are responsible for privatising all ‘new build’ at schools in Belfast and have proposed privatising public transport.”
Socialism Today
Leave the left to their fantasies. Fair play tya Aaron. Just answer me this. When have the Left ever had a chance to ruin our country the way FG & FF have. Cop on “Businessman”. Never ever should FF be let run this country, and when FG are ousted next election, maybe the Left will have a go at restoring a working mans country to working men and women, and not run like a businessman’s country for businessmen.
Yeah, you think there’s a lot of emigration now just see what happens when the looney left are in charge. 60+% tax on people actually working, as many perks and pay rises as the unions can dream up. Far worse than even having the IMF in charge, which is shite also Tbh.
What ya basing that on Stephen?? There’s never been a Taoiseach from any other party other than FF and FG.
Basing it on the tried and proven observation that Labour care first and foremost about the unions.
The left had their chance in the late 1970s, when FF took a far left turn to win an election. Remember the slogan “The Seventies will be Socialist.” They abolished some taxes (including property taxes), hiked others (income taxes) and boosted spending, greatly increasing the public debt. It only lasted a few years until the Lynch government fell, however the impact was felt for most of the 1980s.
No Ryan,
FF gave more tax breaks.
The Right-Wing nuts are running out of support.
Hopefully the Socialists trump FG and FF
Stephen McMahon wrote:
” Yeah, you think there’s a lot of emigration now just see what happens when the looney left are in charge. 60+% tax on people actually working, as many perks and pay rises as the unions can dream up. Far worse than even having the IMF in charge, which is shite also Tbh. ”
Any evidence to back that claim up?
Tim, I cant prove that would happen no more than you can prove it would not. However as I pointed out earlier past behavior usually dictates future behavior. Labour only really cares about the Unions. Labour seems to believe all of society’s problems can be solved by taxing the rich harder. That usually means in reality tax those who make something of themselves.
Like the headline of this article… Of course the two Conservative parties should join up . But found the anti socialist tone of the article unnecessary and verging on the offensive… It is true the present labour party in government are struggling and are a far cry from what they were in opposition. And yet is that not true of every party In opposition? .. The realities of government Inevitability mean…disappointing your electorate and compromising on promises made.
Mr McKenna is correct. While noisy and, at times, entertaining in opposition, socialists offer no credible solutions to this crisis.
Identifying with socialism has become a political/electoral liability in Canada.
http://m.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1008690–ndp-leaving-socialism-behind-in-constitution-policy-manual
The Swedes have come to realise that the path to growth is through fiscal conservatism, while socialism has little to offer.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704698004576104023432243468.html
Denmarks socialists, after a decade in opposition, are deeply unpopular after one year in government. Their administration is set to collapse.
http://m.euractiv.com/details.php?aid=513795
Socialism not working well in Denmark.
Denmarks socialists, after a decade in opposition, are deeply unpopular after one year in government. Their administration is set to collapse.
http://m.euractiv.com/details.php?aid=513795
Swedes have come to realise that socialism is an unsustainable ideology.
The Swedes have come to realise that the path to growth is through fiscal conservatism, while socialism has little to offer.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704698004576104023432243468.html
‘Socialist’ is now an undesirable label in Canadian politics.
Identifying with socialism has become a political/electoral liability in Canada.
@ Sean O’Keefe
You link to a potted history of Sweden by a hack from the moderate party who’s stated aim is to destroy the belief of non-Swedes that socialism ever contributed to Sweden’s prosperity or social success.
I am no expert in Swedish history, but the smattering that I do have enabled me to notice several incongruities in his narrative.
Eg. the assertion that real wages only grew 1% between 1970 and the early 90′s: there was a property bubble that burst spectacularly around 1990 taking around 15% of the economy with it, and necessitating austerity and industrial divestment.
Across the border in Norway, do you honestly think that right-wing parties would have constituted the arrangements that let that country’s people enjoy the riches of their nation’s oil?
The Norwegian Labour party has ensured that the profits didn’t corrupt the politics of the land, didn’t destabilise prices, and have formalised a system of transparency that is used as an exemplar the world over.
Find me the right-wing government that has done that.
@ Max.
I’ve linked to potted histories of Sweden, Denmark & Canada.
The Danes are coming to realise the shortcomings of socialism.
The penny has already dropped in Sweden.
Mentioning socialism is political suicide in Canada.
Ireland, unfortunately, is a bit further behind on this learning curve.
The fallacy of drawing comparisons between Ireland or Sweden’s economic histories and Norway’s is that neither the Swedes or Irish have access (to date) to the reserves of oil or gas that Norway enjoys.
Here’s a quote from an academic hack, which supports the assertions of the political hack referenced above.
“We also investigated the claim that Sweden is proof that big government does not harm the economy. While Sweden has done very well compared to other developed countries in the last 15 years, it has also implemented sweeping pro-market reforms. Examples include a national system of free school choice based on vouchers up through senior year of high school, a financially stable public pension system that can adjust payouts if contributions to the system fall for some reason, and comprehensive tax reform that has lowered marginal tax rates tremendously.
Even if Sweden’s government still spends some 20% of GDP more than the U.S. on average, the Swedish economy is now much more market oriented and government spending is down by almost 10% of GDP since the early 1990s.
Sweden’s recent growth is thus the result of opting for free-market solutions instead of growing government.”
Andreas Bergh, Lund University Sweden
Socialism is offensive to any normal thinking person who values hard work and ambition
@Sean O’Keeffe
To stay with Sweden, for the moment:
As your contention is that Socialism has done Sweden no good, could you explain Sweden’s out-performance of the world economy over the last 100 years, when for over 80 of those they have been governed by the Social Democrats? Only five general elections (1976, 1979, 1991, 2006 and 2010) have given the centre-right bloc enough seats in Parliament to form a government, proving that Sweden’s economic success happened under a socialist government.
Both sources that you reference base-line their economic arguments at 1990. This is, to put it politely, problematic, as all of Scandinavia experienced a catastrophic economic melt-down in the wake of the fall of communism in 1989/1990, and as in all such crises, the government had to borrow and spend massively to prevent the economy tail-spinning into oblivion. And, your source even mentions that Sweden’s government spending is 20% more of GDP than the US, and yet Sweden is growing at 4% per year – again proof that state involvement in the economy is no barrier to prosperity.
Why you would mention school vouchers as emblematic of economic success is baffling. The choices, in such a system, gravitate to children who already have greater advantages in life. Those from stable, two-parent, wealthy backgrounds will avail of the choices, while children from poor, single-parent backgrounds will be sidelined. Such systems operate as a social wedge, something that has been avoided in Swedish society, thus far.
Indeed, Norwegian oil provides for exceptional prosperity – under a socialist government. Other European countries have discovered oil too. We have the phrase “Dutch disease” because oil, when discovered in a developed country, has invariably had a great many unwelcome effects when exploited by private interests.
Like I already asked, and you failed to answer: point to the country who’s right-wing government managed its oil discoveries to the benefit of it’s citizens in any comparable terms with Norway.
I don’t wish to duck your points about Denmark and Canada. Denmark’s case maps pretty closely onto my arguments about Sweden.
In Canada – the unconstrained exploitation of that country’s mineral wealth by private capital is demonstrably corrosive to the integrity of their political system. Big money can afford the lobbying and infiltration of the institutions of government to steer legislation and regulation to their advantage, at the expense of the rest of the population.
@Irish Tax Payer
Are you really oblivious to the advantages in terms of opportunity that having a wealthy, stable start in life offer children?
I’ve been living in Sweden for a year now. We have free health care for our son until he is 18.
He has childhood asthma, and his medication in Ireland cost 200 a month, in Sweden it’s under 300 per year.
His cr?che costs less than 100 euro a month, the but increases in proportion to our income.
He is free on public transport until he is 7 years old.
A visit to the doctor as an adult costs about 15 euro.
Social welfare pays minimum, but education and health care are taken care of. College costs 0 SEK per year.
Everything on social welfare is heavily means tested.
You can get on a bus and pay to your journey no matter how many transfers between bus and train are involved.
You use your social security number for everything. You can get a car loan with it and a photo ID.
How ever you define their politics, they are infinitely more social, community based and fair than Ireland ever was.
Sweden have higher taxes and many Swedes are pushing to change this, for businesses etc, and but if you speak to ex. Pats running their own businesses here the general consensus is they are happy to pay the taxes because of the level of services provided here.
Once we have a political system whereby a politicians only goal is to get reelected, we will never have true public servants.
The whole political system needs to be reformed. I would like to see elected TD’s to govern on local issues and then an appointed central committee with a longish tenure and made up of industry experts to govern on national issues.
County & City councillors should deal with local issues, and given the resources and RESPONSIBILITY to do so, leave the TD’s to deal solely with national issues. Both require a new breed of politician however who will represent their constituents not just themselves or their parties
Who will appoint them?
no. look at the shambles of city and county councillors. they are the root cause of the rotten political system we have.
Gerry,
Sometimes, those who are unqualified make better governments than those who are qualified. The best example is the current administration who despite their qualifications, failed.. History has shown this in other countries too.
Appointed by whom? That sounds like a dictatorship to me. And since when have industrialists displayed any competence in societal planning? Bosses know best logic- I don’t accept that at all..
Let’s get real and merge the DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party.
Let’s get real and merge the Republican party with the Democratic party.
Let’s get real and merge the Conservative party with the liberal democrats.
Let’s get real and stop having Disney fantasies.
The upshot of the whole debate just goes to show how hopeless all the parties are. As things stand, it’s every man for himself. I don’t want to know any of them. I’m not naive enough to think or even hope that it’s likely to change anytime soon. The last three coalition governments have done irreparable damage to politics in this country as a whole. Can anyone tell me what Labour actually represent, because I’m completely baffled. It’s so sad that a party that promised us so much, while in opposition treats its poor people with complete contempt, and it’s even sadder that we allow them to continue treating said people with complete contempt. Life has now become a challenge that involves doing whatever it takes to keep ones family fed and clothed. The greatest danger to a society is when too many men reach breaking point.. That day in Ireland is most definitely immenent.
Well said rod!
Rodrigo,
SF are different – they would not sellout their electorate unlike FG / FF. You are painting all parties with the same brush.
Tim, are SF paying you by the post? Becuase if so you must be making a fortune. Your assertion that SF would be different in government is based on no facts other that some belief you have in them. Where this belief is coming from is completely unclear.
SF have simply colonised the populist, “promise everything” ground that FF used to sit on. And they’ve become masters of the protest voice. The problem is that as FG and Labour are finding out, its easy to promise everything when you’re out of power but much harder when you actually have to follow through.
SF will be no different if they every do get their hands on power becuase while there may be differences in approach to running the finances of the country the simple facts is that there simply ISN’T any magic wand solution out there. And SF TD’s have proven that they are every bit as good as all the others when it comes to getting the nose in trough of politicial expenses.
seriously ff and fg together!!!! stop giving people silly idea’s, both are a bunch of lying, cheating criminals.
Rather than be in coalition, they should just merge as one party. Their politics are virtually identical. And to survive into the future, they probably will need to merge. Then, maybe, we can have a left and right, rather than just the right we’ve had for the past 90 years.
Absolutely spot on Aaron – they are Fully deserving of one another .
The Parties of broken promises to our Nation!
By the time the next Election is held in this Country – which will probably happen when the Full qualification period has been surpassed for huge Ministerial Pensions , when the “Seniors” in both Parties will suddenly get “conscience” , pull the plug & “Retire” from Politics , like their FF predecessors did a couple of years ago.
FF , FG & Labour are like clones of one another – The Parties of “The Hall of Mirrors” & deceit !
Hated every minute of this column. God, the thoughts of that unholy alliance is enough to ruin my whole day! There’s only one place where these two parties will make cosy bedfellows and that’s on the rubbish heap of bad history!
Or they could all head off to Australia like the FF councillor!
The only place for FF & FG is as far removed from power as possible; instead they’re both currently as far removed from the electorate as possible.
The title of this column is the worst ever and a terrible idea. We fired Fianna Fail because of negligence, incompetence and fraud. The replacements are not much better but they are not worse. We live and hope that somehow a competent applicant will rise up and make herself known. Just the worst idea ever….. FFS can you imagine the happy heads of FF back in government like all has been forgiven and how they managed to make a comeback. Puke. Sorry I read this on a Saturday morning.
Deluded article. Im not even going to try to comment. Its deluded.
This country and its governance is not some experiment. Real peoples lives are actually tied up in the decisions of the country. Fianna Fail is corrupt and without moral fibre. They put us in this mess and facilitated the election of an extreme right wing party in fine gael and the pseudo socialist minority in labour. Why does the journal allow articles like this on its site? We dont want fianna fail. They have betrayed the children of Ireland and brought the country to its knees.
I think you did try to comment. In fact, you even succeeded in doing so!
@ criostair i believe i did. Subconsciously i couldnt help myself. :)
Your “we dont want fianna fail” (sic) is laughable. You don’t speak for the whole population of Ireland. FF got 387,358 first preference votes last time. YOU may not want FF, many others on this site may not want FF, I may like FF but still 387,358 people did want them last time and I’d imagine in the next election the figure will be even higher.
So judging by your figures Ryan there are 387,358 morons in this country,including your good self.
@ Ru: Why am I a moron for pointing out that FF still have significant support. As I said, I may not like them but this idea that “we dont want FF” is contradicted completely by the actual numbers who voted for them.
Oh and grow up some time maybe. This is supposed to be a site for debate, not petty insults. Maybe if you can’t manage to get past that level you should go somewhere else. A playground perhaps?
Don’t take it personal Ryan I have many good friends who voted and support Fianna Fail,and they are morons too.After everything that has happened in this country I can not fathom why anybody would want to vote for Fianna Fail,other than being a moron or because of some misplaced family loyalty to the party,when in actual fact that is even more moronic!!!
Well sure you a moron as well then, given your level of political debate involves petty name calling rather than making valid points. You are quite pathetic really. I pointed out a fact which is true. That number of people did vote for FF. You may disagree with them but get over it rather than calling me names for posting facts.
Awwwww,did the big bad random man on the interwebs upset you Ryan??? Awww bless!!! Are you sure you are old enough vote ??
Btw I didn’t call you are moron for stating facts,I called you a moron for saying “I may like FF”.
The original comment should have read “I may not like”. Oh for an edit function on this website. And if you look back over my posts on this thread and on this site you’ll see I don’t support FF. Although I have to say calling people morons because they support a certain political party or express a divergent opinion to yours is, well, rather moronic eh Ollie and “Ru”?
Not really Ryan,it’s far easier to condense it down to a one word description,than to repeat ad nauseam the reasons why people are morons for continually voting and supporting Fianna Fail!!!
That being said,I sincerely apologize,for wrongly labeling a moron,based on an error,which thankfully as been corrected ;-)
All parties should express the need to abolish the Croke Park Scam and remove the unions threat of voting power that keeps the parties in office.
Fine Failures will never be back at the helm, unless LSD replaces fluoride in our water.
I think you’re misrepresenting the effects of LSD.
No they shouldn’t.
One had their chance and destroyed the country. The other are still destroying the country.
Together it would be nothing but more austerity, mass immigration, more unwanted charges, more selling off our natural resources and god knows what else. These shower care about one thing and one thing only and that’s themselves. People are sick to death of listening to both of these.
So no just no but thank you for getting my blood pumping on this beautiful Saturday morning. It was needed.
Most of the comments on here don’t acknowledge that the choice of government parties can be only be made within the Dáil arithmetic that an election throws up.
Everyone seems to be hoping that a new wonderful altruistic selfless party or parties of people with immaculate records (lacking original political sin to use a Catholic metaphor) will magically emerge with the ability to form a government. That ain’t happening anytime soon – remember all the false dawns in this area before last election. We’re stuck with what we vote for!
Given what we’ve got I think it makes far more sense for voters to get an actual choice of the policies rather than just the personalities that will form their government. This can’t happen as long as such governments always contain one of the large centrist parties and a mix of others. – the choice is always going to be between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. It can happen if an FF and FG alliance one side versus a labour/SF/others alliance on the other is the choice presented.
Voters will then have to take responsibility for the choice made at the ballot box as there will be a much closer link between the vote the majority cast and the policies they get.
Finally, some sense
Here, here! Well said!
Very true John. A realist at last. Looking at party support, I’d predict that FG will be around the 60-65 seat mark next time around, while FF will be up to 30 and Labour will be back down to it’s historical position of 20 seats or so. I think at this point it will be that FF and FG may consider a coalition, depending on if FG and Labour have the seats themselves or not.
The only way it could happen beforehand is if Labour walked out of government and FF’s support was required, similar to what happened in 1994. But I can’t see Labour walking out any time soon, although they’ll possibly lose a few more TDs in the next year or two.
Realistic but disappointing. It all goes to show that we really do get the govt we deserve.
The only way to stop these corrupt and useless politicians from gaining power is to refuse to waste your valuable vote on valueless people .no votes…no power
Exactly. Two thing: our vote and our voices
There is already a coalition. The coalition of corporate interest. When will Irish people form their own coalition and vote for the interests of the informed, involved and compassionate citizen?
To those who propose the setting up of a new party, what exactly do you think that will achieve other then to allow failed or worse still poor politicians from other parties jump on the goodwill of a new party?
The problem isn’t the parties, it’s the people in them. If we break it down further, the single biggest problem and the starting point for any change in Irish politics is how Irish people vote.
What difference can a new party make if people vote for the same kind of cute hooers we already have? Different name, same old crap!
If we want real change we won’t wait 5 years to let our politicians know when they are not performing. We wont vote locally for politicians who should have a national agenda. We will demand accountability and accept nothing less, particularly in instances where “technically” a politician does no wrong but it’s clear that their moral/ethical compass are way off track!
Thank you for pointing out the big white elephant, very true. A lot of Irish people vote in national elections based on local or parochial issues (“He got a road fixed for me”, “she came to my father’s funeral”, “he’s from this party of the country so I’ll vote for him”, “She has the best chance of any of them of being a Minister and once she’s in she’ll look after us.”)
The situation where voters are clients is the biggest problem of all in Irish politics. I partially agree with SF’s proposals for a party list system, although I think it should be 50/50 representation between list TDs and directly elected TDs. However any attempt to change the current electoral system would be met with distrust from large portions of the electorate, used to the local cute hoor TD who goes to all the funerals.
Actually the problem is not the people in political parties, it’s actually a step further down. The problem is the average Irish voter. Ultimately we get the politicians we deserve. When FF were splashing money all over the country in the early 2000s we gave them term after term after term. There was scandal after scandal in the mid 2000s with the government but because people had money in their pockets and were being promised more, we ignored all of the moral issues. It was only when the money ran out that we were suddenly outraged at FF.
Irish people are completely inconsistent in what they claim to want from government and politicians so is it any wonder that our political system seems dysfunctional. The simple fact is that for all people’s complaints about “parish pump” politics they still want to have local TDs because they want to have somebody that they can call up when they need a favour done.
Far from being sophisticated, Irish voters are for the most part guided by pure self-interest. We will vote for the simple populist line every time. One only has to look at the poll number for parties like SF, who have taken over the FF populist mantle, to see that nothing has really changed. Ultimately at some point SF will get into government and those expecting major changes will be disappointed and disillusioned when they prove to be no major difference from what has gone before because be in no doubt that’s what will happen.
Until we grow up as a nation and stop voting purely in our own self-interest we’ll get the same sort of politicians time after time irrespective of what voting system we have.
Forgot to add this. I am in favour of modification of our constituency based system but I have some issue with the concept of party lists.
The problem with a list based system is that it means the candidates are picked by the party leadership. Therefore it isn’t in any prospective candidates interest to be radical or question the party line. The result is a party list full of YES men and women who dare not speak out because their political future now does not rest with the voters but actually with the party leadership.
Sick of this Aaron McKenna’s right wing views at this point. I lost interest about two lines in when he talks about how cuts have to be made in the health service. Yes, to paper pushers’ and consultants’ salaries which are astronomical. Not frontline services that will cost lives. No distinction made. You want FF and FG together to further a right wing wet dream of privitisation and “efficiencies”. i.e. destroying any semblance of free and universal healthcare. Go away please.
Well why read his columns if you disagree so much?
The people who destroyed our country and the people who lied their way to power and are crucifying our people. Looking for some new tax breaks Mr. Mc Kenna?
What about making a large bonfire like they do in England on Guy Fawkes night and burn them all, then every year the every year on the anniversary of the signing of the bank guarantee scheme commemorate their treachery with firework parties .
FG and FF is a Tea Party, poor and middle class must pay for the top 10%.
We need alternative governments like SF / Independents
Can you give it a rest Tim (or is this Gerry or Mary-Lou in disguise)? We know your viewpoint. It’s not necessary to say the same thing on every political article.
Let them form a coalition. They’d be easier to round up.
Come along this Thursday to Messers Maguires, 7.30pm we are rocking the boat – google Sli Nios fearr a new political initiative.
The more people sit a throw stones at poltitical parties the less gets done , Fg mayby out of touch with the voters and have an arrogant approch to decision making but they have been voted into this position by democractic process.
FF has began a core change with new leader and a lot of new politicans within its ranks , yes they came from the last govt that held the reins while we crashed but by lets remember most of the policies put forward through the dail was voted in with FG in support.
The blame game will not help our country pull forward , its a negative weight around our neck. FG are in charge let them make the though decisons based on rational thought process not by simply stating as they have ” the last shower caused this “or ” its their fault”.
I live in the now and all i want to know is , what are you doing to safegaurd our future . I dont want some school yard retoric blame game. Your (Fg) in charge not FF so what are you doing to help this countrt.
Lets stop allowing ourselfs being divided by past and present all that matters to our future is now. I didnt vote Fg but now that they are in power all that matters to me is what and how they use it. Time to put Ireland first and not europe .
“I live in the Now”.
Classic FF BS and distraction.
As if the corruption and incompetence of FF can be absolved just like that.
A FF’er saying it is time to put Ireland first, lol. When have your party ever done that.
There is no blame game, The guilt clearly lies on FF’s head, they have proven themselves in capable of honest or decent Govt. repeatedly over the last 25 years and incapable of economic govt. over last 60 years.
If FF have a future then this country does not.
sam when did i say i was FF ? i only stated who i didnt vote for .
jumping the gun there. my point was simply if the political parties continue fighting with each other the country will never come out the outer side. Who i vote for has nothing to do with living in the now.
if you want to write the history that suits your aurgument ,fine but im more for reduced waiting lists better staffed A&E dept and job growth in our life time Not bickering about who done what 5 /10 years ago.
You have summed up labour perfectly: power without commitment to the people. Labours lack of political balls and ‘Alice in Wonderland’ policies wool be their downfall.
I can’t see FG & FF getting together. Time now for FF to do a ‘tallaght arrangement”. Let the labour grey heads go to their political creche and play their nonsense games out our harms way.
Though I fear the same problem will persist: career politicians, like civil servants and union leaders, will never rock the boat.
FG would need to get their house in order before any kind of a merger would be possible. The FG advisers would have to go along with their PR contractors Oh there is just such a long list of thing that would have to happen …………………………………………….maybe 20 years down the road
there is nothing between fianna gael and fianna fail politically. the one thing which i would like to see is when a party gets into power is should be held accountable for its pre election promises. no more lying to the people and promising anything just to get into power
You won’t find many people who’d disagree that Fianna Fáil raped this country for the benefit of themselves and their cronies, we kicked them out – never to be allowed back I sincerely hope. I was the earnest hope of the nation that this other shower of ejits, Fine Gael & Labour, would do something, anything, but they’ve just perpetuated the situation and bowed and scraped to our European Overlords. In all of this the impossible suddenly happened, Sinn Féin emerged as the one voice saying what the people want to hear, their opinion ratings went up, it was dismissed at first but after a while it became obvious, if their was another general election next week Sinn Féin would be a serious threat, a party to contend with. It’s this that the other parties fear most.
Yes there’s no difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, they don’t even know what their parties core values are, what they stand for. Time and time again they have betrayed the Irish people. Labour were our last hope, they were going to reign Fine Gael back if it came to that, instead they just joined in with them. I spoke to a local Labour party activist about a year ago, well known, and in the party a long time. He told me he was seriously thinking of leaving it as he was disgusted at what they had done and how they had betrayed the people, he said he wasn’t alone either, others felt the same.
The Aaron Mckenna’s of this country may like the idea of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael getting together, like a band reunion, like old times again. Businesses might like it alright, but what about the ordinary people, the ones who they pay, the small people? I seriously doubt if they’d find it any way enjoyable.
Lets have a new party – Fianna Gael or Fine Fáil
Alas, you repeat yourself.
lying b******s the lot of em,
Fionan’s little brother ..absolute plop.
FG and FF are in coalition…they rotate the cabinet ministeries periodically just to confuse the populace..who constitute the opposition to the business interests they serve. You can’t have a Punch and Judy show without the lead characters.
Labour??They’re there to sweep ambitious students who read a book once into the system…and the Greens are what have to be eaten if you want your pension pudding.
Both the ariticle and the comments are confusing “coalition” with “collusion”.
Here’s a thought, call me mad if you will but, why don’t we;
- Disband the current political system
- Make it that if you want to hold public office, like the finance job, you have to at least have a masters in Finance & Risk
- The Governments accounts are freely available online so that people can see what they spend their money on and that when an election comes around, competing parties will know the state of affairs and not make unrealistic promises.
- The name of Eamon De Valera been known from now on as a coward and traitor
- Pension’s for previous ministers that have been found to be corrupt or involved in dodgy dealings be either taken away on a temporary basis whilst the investigation is complete and permanently if it’s proven
- Set up a UK style Select Committee to investigate various issues like corruption, but given then legal power to prosecute on completion.
- Disband the current political system
And replace it with what?
- Make it that if you want to hold public office, like the finance job, you have to at least have a masters in Finance & Risk
Plenty of good Finance Ministers here and internationally haven’t had any qualifications. Common sense can’t be learned.
- The Governments accounts are freely available online so that people can see what they spend their money on and that when an election comes around, competing parties will know the state of affairs and not make unrealistic promises.
They already are. Go to http://www.finance.gov.ie/
- Set up a UK style Select Committee to investigate various issues like corruption, but given then legal power to prosecute on completion.
We rejected an amendment to the constitution last year that would have given extra investigative powers to Oireachtas sub-committees. And that’s not even close to what you are suggesting here. Do you seriously think that people would give the same committees the power to prosecute people?
What I’m trying to say is that they current system doesn’t work. We can’t pretend that Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Sinn Fein or Labour are any different. They all say one thing and do another. I just think that we would get respected politicians if we set a standard for them, ie Business experience, a strong educational background. Tell me this, what qualifications did the previous ministers of finance have? Surely if you had qualified ministers, it would eliminate the need for ‘Advisors’ ?
SF are different. They wouldn’t sellout unlike the other parties.
Just to clarify, when I mentioned the media agenda, I mean pro- big, controlling, corrupt business and pro – the ridiculously mega-wealthy minority who ACTUALLY call the shots in this country.
(I just couldn’t think straight, I was that enraged by the delusional article.)
There’s far too much guff to read above; my two cents, as a member of FF, DREAM ON!!
Ya can waffle all you like (with a certain degree of wishful thinking from the likes of SF & Labour), but I’m simply not going into power with Blueshirts. End of.
Make of that what you will.
Yawn!!
Given current trends I’d imagine that FG will end up with a seat total in the next Dail in the mid to high 60′s, regardless of what the majority of posters on journal.ie think, they have been shown time and time again not to be representative of the majoroity opinion in Ireland. Whether or not Fianna Fail enter government the next time around will be down to whether Fine Gael believes they have been sufficiently detoxicified. Labour can then go back to doing what it does best, oppossing everything.
Alternatively, how about the work product of the Kenny administration is weighing on the Irish people? After all, this is the man who, in his 2011 presidential campaign, told us all that was necessary to make so many positive changes in this country was to elect him. Should “The Blueshirtnation” be held accountable for the rotten fruits of his rotten administration?
Fianna Fail stands for corruption they destroyed this country and we all have to pay because of them.
I notice the Fianna Fail party are keeping very quiet about Quinn and his family
I can totally understand the activists disgust..gilmore is more of a disappointment than kenny.he has totally ignored the grass roots and is now further to the right than even kenny.
They might well be united after the next election , but not with the power they have today , if you abuse something it should be taken away from you.
Rubbish article. Written only to get people worked up. Labour are doing fine in coalition. Quinn as minister for education is playing a blinder. Coalition is never easy.
LOL we’ll see how the coalition will last. CPA will be the nail in the coffin for LAB. Greens anyone
View from Labour press office still as out of touch with reality as usual
When we wake to fact we’ve been recolonised into a plastic-hammer ‘you will never beat the oirish’ idiocy; externally controlled through such local puppets as FF/FG/Labou(gh)t and our compliant media..we’ll be starting to unravel the blanket of PR wool pulled over our collective eyes.
Until then we’re shifting deckchairs on a global Titanic of false(and deliberately falsified)economics based on war and mafia thuggery. I suggest y’all google 6th great extinction. Before they unplug us, altogether.
Part of the reason both parties survive is the ‘Illusion of Opposition’ policy they engage in. People have been fooled into thinking there is a choice between them. If FF and FG merge, the illusion is shattered and a real and powerful organised left will emerge. They both know this and won’t let it happen. Our politics is failed and it’s corrupt to the core.
accountability is key.. you run for office you get elected and you prove yourself..there are talented people in most of the parties..politics in this country needs to be changed radically. the old way of you scratch my back needs to go. we are a small population and our government machine is totally overloaded. ordinary working class public and private need to get rid of the union grip on this country are as they are as out of touch as our politians.
we have parties but no real choice. they would have to take the current labour party with them aswell. a new labour needs to emerge
We need SF. Not a new Labor.
sinn fein are a long way away from being the alternative
Not long Damien. People will embrace SF because they will be a better government than the present mafia.
No matter what Political Party that’s voted in, their loyalty and focus will be on furthering their own party rather than doing right by the people that voted them in. The whip system is an absolute joke, making TD’s vote in a certain way even if it means going against the wishes of the constituency that voted them in just because it suits their party leader.
We need a radical change in what we call Politics, where the focus of each TD voted in is the benefit of their constituency and the Irish People rather than the benefit of their Party, Lobbying Parties, Rich Developers, Bankers, or outside foreign powers like the EU.
Most Blacks I see on the street are poor people, they are very poor, there is hardly a wealthy African in Ireland except for the Black criminals where you have one third of the immigrants being prisoners.But there is a billion more impoverished Blacks on the planet and Lil Ol Ireland can’t do much about that as we cut the Child Benefit the day after tomorrow in the Budget and deprive the elderly oap’s.
With nearly three quarters of a million immigrants in here already the country can’t help any more and it shouldn’t have to because Ireland has now taken in eight times more immigrants per capita than France, the UK would have nine million more immigrants in over the past decade at Ireland’s rate of allowing immigrants, and the Irish Immigration actually represents thirty millions entering the USA in a singe decade.
No small country like Ireland can afford anything like this with the Billions that mass immigration cost being taken out of the Troika Bail Out Loans that Ireland has to pay back with interest and thus all the Budget cuts to share out the social welfare money with the immigrants, to house, educate, feed, clothe and pay for doctors and hospitals and expensive procedures for all the immigrants – if I landed at Kennedy I wouldn’t get anything like that, and that’s why all these hundreds of thousands of immigrants are making for Ireland, even now with mass unemployment here.
Most of these immigrants and their families now landing in Ireland will never work a day in their lives here but will have to be looked after here for life, thus the mass immigration industry and all who benefit for it, NGO’s, Lawyers, and Organisers and Spokesmen/Women will continue to feed off it all, that’s all it’s about now, and a place for the UN to dump more people, because that is what Ireland is looked upon as now, a human dumping ground for the International Community, and that’s all it will ever be in our lifetimes.
There is no opportunity for business, no jobs, no hope here, the country is now for those who are knuckled down to existing on ever-decreasing welfare.
Those who can , who want to get on, who want to escape all the depression which is only beginning to bite in now should get out while they have a chance, there’s no future and no hope here in Little Africa.Sorry about that but there it is, that’s the depths that our politicians and media have led us to and there is no answer for it at all.
have your say