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“AN APATHETIC GENERATION too self-centred, lazy or simply indifferent to care about the world outside of our current social circle and the latest PlayStation game”
May 2004. My little book of quotations. An excerpt from a piece of research I found for a debate I was doing in the Concern Schools Debating Competition on the topic of youth. I was 16 years of age and in my Leaving Cert year. This was my second and final year of competing in the debating competition.
What strikes me now looking back at this is that young people have always been perceived to be apathetic and indifferent to current or political affairs; incapable of grasping the complexities of the socio-political environment. Not mature enough to bear the responsibility of voting or having a say on the issues that affect them. But at 16 I had filled out my CAO, sat my Leaving Certificate and become a PAYE employee. I managed to navigate state examinations, decide what shape my future would take academically and ultimately in my career, and then enlist in the world of work. At 17 I moved away from home, started my degree in Economics, Politics and Law and balanced college and work.
The irony of a 16 year old voluntarily debating political apathy in a competition organised by an NGO was not lost on me then and still isn’t when I adjudicate for the very same debating competition today.
Young people getting the rights to matched their societal responsibilities
On the weekend of the 26th and 27th January 2013, the first plenary discussions of the Constitutional Convention took place in Malahide, with the issues of voting age and the presidential term on the agenda. The Convention’s mandate was to report a recommendation on reducing the voting age to 17. The Convention recommended that a change be made to the Constitution to lower the voting age by a majority of 52%. More importantly, the Convention went further than the original proposal and 48% of members recommended that the voting age be reduced to 16.
This is important as not least were young people being given the right to vote by their peers, but the group of young people was broadened further than that originally considered by the Oireachtas. The goalposts were changing and young people were to get the rights that matched their societal responsibilities.
But nearly two years on where does this stand? Since that Convention we have had a referendum on Seanad abolition and a referendum on a new Court of Appeal, there has been a local and European election – but young people aged 16 and 17 have yet to be given the right to vote. The Taoiseach made it clear that a referendum would be held in Spring 2015 on the issue but no further details have been forthcoming. Will it be a stand-alone election? Will it be early or late Spring?
There has been silence on the issue of the voting age
It has been mooted that this referendum will be held on the same day as the Marriage Equality referendum to maximise voter turnout. As we have seen, this important campaign has taken off in recent months, with efforts to maximise voter registration before the deadline of 25 November. But unfortunately, there has been silence on the issue of the voting age. No public debates, no private conversations and, most critically, little public awareness. Since January 2013, the issue has effectively fallen off the radar.
Should the referendum pass, important issues around political education, information regarding the referendum itself and the logistics of voter registration need to be considered in advance. Campaign organisations need to have clarity on when a referendum might occur so as to facilitate voter education and awareness on the issues. There is the fear that some event, perhaps related to water, could trigger an election sooner rather than later and this could leave either the referendum or the legislation to give effect to the referendum, in doubt. More importantly, there is the fear that the important issue of marriage equality will eclipse voting age and dominate public discourses completely. This could hinder the passing of the referendum if sufficient information is not disseminated though public debate.
As a 16 year old, I was debating development issues. Almost ten years later I sat in the Constitutional Convention listening to articulate 16 and 17 year olds discuss the merits of giving them the right to vote. We are fortunate that there is an appetite among young people to have a say in the issues that affect them. We saw this in the Scottish referendum: it blew the myth that young people are apathetic out of the water and it showed that they are capable of getting engaged with politics.
Kathryn Reilly is a Sinn Féin Senator.
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It’s like paragraph after paragraph of look how great I am!
Maybe that changes towards the end, I gave up.
But so many 16/17 year olds have done their leaving cert and enjoy debating.
Younger people who want to validate or legitimise their opinion by listing their achievements really get under my skin.
Kathryn’s piece has done little to convince me.
As you said, it seems to be an essay about herself and how great she is.
Granted, she informed herself, which has to be complimented. But she is in a very small minority if she was mature enough to make decisions at 16.
As a parent, I see the maturity levels of 16yo’s and they have no interest in national politics at all. I also see 18yo’s with equally no interest, but an age for voting has to start somewhere.
Kathryn is one of a very small minority and I’m certain that she was a fantastic student, both at school and university with fantastic grades.
But that’s just it, 99% of her peers are not. They are average students with their school social lives as the only thing on their minds.
Maybe you’re missing the point Danny. If teenagers were involved in voting from age 16, or even younger, wouldn’t participating actually increase their engagement by giving them a voice? Saying that adolescents aren’t mature enough to vote is the biggest hoqwash I’ve ever heard. Ask a group of 100 random Irish adults why they voted for their choice political party/politician and see the “maturity” of the reasoning they base their decisions on. Irish government affects ALL citizens equally, teenagers included. If kids want to vote, let them vote and stop being so dismissive of their intellect.
Do you think a maturity switch turns on on your 18th birthday? As a 16 y/o you can be taxed and jailed. Why not vote? Kids would be registered at school and would develop a habit of voting.
I will be even fairer in my assessment, the level of maturity displayed by your average 16 year old, granted there are outliers who will skew the data, is still greater than the level of maturity displayed within the Daíl. What is wrong with allowing children to vote in an election when, to be quite frank, we allow the biggest of them to run in elections.
That’s great that’s you(author) but plenty of 16years old are still babies and haven’t a breeze about the real world.Of course some might but I’d reckon its the exception to the rule.
The reason for it the brain only fully forms at 25 the last part to fully develop is the prefrontal cortex, the higher cognitive reasoning centre and it’s why kids are immature its also the part that gets impaired when drinking and when drunk people do dumb stuff.
So why would anyone want kids voting on issues that may not directly affect them for a generation or that they in all likelihood haven’t got a full comprehension of? Let kids enjoy their childhood and formative years they’ll be adults for enough years of their life.
Exactly.
@Atticus, would you be an advocate of raising the voting age to 25 because as you mentioned that is the age when the brain fully forms?
Granted some children are immature, but there are some children I have seen and met that are more mature that some adults. You cannot paint all children with the some brush because if you do, then why not apply it to adults also.
“So why would anyone want kids voting on issues that may not directly affect them for a generation or that they in all likelihood haven’t got a full comprehension of?” – Could that line have been used for the children’s referendum, only adults with children or those who plan on having children in the near future could vote for it?
Also how many adults don’t have a full comprehension of the Lisbon treaty 1 and 2, The fiscal compact treaty etc?
Stephen – yes plenty of adults are clueless and nonpolitical.Society is breeding morons at an alarming rate but that is irrelevant to the fact kids are immature and haven’t got the best judgement.Yes some kids will have more maturity than others but lowering the voting age won’t change the fact kids are by their nature immature.
In regards of raising the voting age even if that was the best option it would never fly but I’m just not for lowering it to include an even bigger amount of immature people who in all likelihood wouldn’t be informed.You’d end up with Niall from 1D as a TD ;)
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/19/health/mental-health/teen-brain-impulses/
I wouldn’t trust the vast majority if 16/17 years with a potatoe gun let alone a vote :)
16 and 17 year olds are as apathetic as it gets. There is no need to give them a vote. Next nonsensical issue, please.
16 and 17 year olds are obsessed with the education system. They haven’t lived outside the education system bubble. A sixteen year old was ten when the crash happened, how can they even remember the causes of the crash. They’ll probably vote for anyone but this government and vote for Fianna Fáil.
Well they are going to be voting eventually. And not giving them the vote because you might not agree with how they vote is hardly an argument.
I would have been very much against lowering the voting age until recently. The participation of youths in the Scottish referendum has however changed my view on this.
The Scottish referendum changed my mind about it actually.
It was shown that 16 and 17 year olds voted differently to 18 to 24 year olds. That says to me that while stuck in an education bubble you’re going to be easily influenced. Influenced by teachers who often have an agenda and influenced by other kids who haven’t experienced much in life outside school.
Jack, are you seriously saying that because they are more likely to vote differently to another age demographic that they should be denied the right to vote? How did the 24+ category vote? Should they be denied the right to vote too? After all, they can be more likely swayed by budgetary sweeteners offered by political parties who often have an agenda.
No. I’m not saying that at all.
I’m saying people still in school are still to immature to vote because they have very limited experiences.
If you let 16 and 17 year olds vote why not 14 and 15 year olds. Where does it stop?
I wish we could raise the voting age to 25. An age where most people have been to college left home and experienced a lot in life. An age where you’d vote for who you feel is best for the country instead of voting for who your parents or friends are voting for.
if you are not an adult in the eyes of the courts, i.e. not mature enough to make important decisions, then why should you be allowed to vote?
Heard the phrase “cannot be named due to legal reasons”? That’s because 16/17 year olds can’t be named as they are minors and not considered adults by the court. A ten year old can stand trial, doesn’t mean they should vote.
You might have heard the phrase, “cannot be named for legal reasons” used in relation to 16/17 year olds. This is because you are not considered an adult in the eyes of the court.
Fine Gael voters are middle aged it would only be competition to them and besides teenagers tend to be radical. Selective democracy.
Nonsense I’m a psephologist Fianna Fáil have the largest share of u-25 votes at the moment (local & euros). Then SF – SF have slightly more intending to vote but then they don’t bother. FG in the last election got a huge proportion of the abc1 asset-owning electorate most of whom were between 30 and 55. That is where FG got its surge and it’s also the hole in. It’s current numbers.
It’s hard enough to get u-30s to vote. No issue in theory w dropping age to 16 but question the point to some degree when so few will vote
Might be your point stands as the reason why they should vote. If anything getting slightly higher numbers at the ballot box is a plus.
There could be a more beneficial knock on effect of being able to introduce teens to voting at 16, encouraging political engagement and debate, and leading to higher percentage turn outs for that generation.
I couldn’t imagine any voting for the current crowd bar those influenced by parents, if left to own devices I’d put my money them going with Sinn Fein.
Problem is, though, if we lower the current voting age, do politicans get to proselytize the new voters? TD’s have a habit of making appearances at schools across the country for all manner of things. Is it necessarily a bad thing considering as part of the electorate it’s what you have to put up with?
People mature at different stages in life. I have a son who at sixteen was capable of making his own decisions which I could never fault, I also have a daughter of thirty who can’t make the most rudimentary decisions.
It’s difficult to lump everyone into the same bracket but from experience I’d say sixteen is probably too young, maybe not from an intellectual point of view but from a “street smart” point.
Exactly, they are not “street smart”, as they will not have experience with paying PAYE, PRSI, USC, car tax, rent, utility bills…… so why should they be able to vote on decisions on the people that do?
Winston Churchill: “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
I don’t see how a teenager could make any less uneducated a voting decision as any comparable adult. Maybe a different pair of eyes will lead to change to our broken system down the line? Maybe a bad voting decision will teach a teenager an early lesson making them wiser the next time around?
It’s amazing how threatened some people are by “youth”.
“I don’t see how a teenager could make any less uneducated a voting decision as any comparable adult.”
If thats the case, why don’t we send 16 year olds to prison? If they cant make any less of a voting decision, then the comparable adult, then they know what crimes they are committing, and should be treated as and adult, and put behind bars.
If this article was about sending 16 year olds to prison, then im guessing the same people here that think they should be able to vote, would also be against them going to jail.
Not at all Frank, I would quite agree with even some 8 year olds being sent to prison, the way some of them these days behave. Certainly I would say let them vote at 16 and if they are committing crimes that are prisonworthy then let them go to prison. Also, please, for the love of god, if you are going to criticise people’s abilities and knowledge based on their age, then try to get your own spelling and grammar correct, know the differences between then and than and know when to use and or an. It really helps an argument to be able to display the moral high ground.
Another great ‘original’ Irish idea. Where do we get such inspiration. We don’t trust 16/17 year olds to make decisions about having sex or smoking or having an alcoholic drink, they would not be allowed to enter into military combat but we want to give them the vote. The UK is raising the school leaving age to 18, I’m sure Ireland will original use this idea and yet we don’t see the irony. In the attempt to infantalise politics, beyond that which it is already, why not go further and give the vote to 15, 14, 13 year olds?
At the age of 18, I was bothered by the idea of a lot of my peers being able to vote, let alone 16. Just not mature or experienced enough. I was always politically conscious, but the level to which others my age have been paying attention has increased steadily the older they get, whereas next to no one gave a damn at 16.
It’s nearly always the left pushing for this, because younger people tend to be more liberal in their worldview. I’m going to be cynical and say that they don’t care all that much about ‘engaging the youth in politics’, but more about gaining a large number of very impressionable, easily swayed voters that they think will tend towards being sympathetic to them.
Fact is, most kids at 16 and 17 are still in school. That environment gives little experience of the real world, and their views are generally not going to be all that well formed.
It’s a bad idea. Simple
While canvassing during the 1007 General ELection a woman in her 30′s told me that she was voting for a particular candidate because her kids thought he looked like a character from their favourite cartoon.
I’d gladly give any 16 year old a vote over her.
This is all lies. Women didn’t have the vote in 1007 :-D
When 16 and 17 year olds begin to show some fraction of the determination of the Marriage Equality supporters, perhaps it will be time to support lowering the voting age.
So does that mean when they are likely to support your political choices?
No, not at all. My response was poorly worded. I meant that when 16 and 17 year olds, as a group, expressed a desire to get the vote, it should be considered. My experience with that age group is that most are experiencing the “adolescent egocentricity” described by developmental psychologists.
i can understand the apathy of young people in Ireland. They have been abandoned by ALL POLITICANS , have been forced to live on ONE HUNDRED EURO a week in a country that has no employment, treated as second class citizens not even entitled to a rate of pay that is near the poverty line and we expect them to care… what a joke. They are not treated as equal under the constitution or they would be given at least the adult rate of dole like every other citizen in this country
I shall tell you why *fixes tie* Young people are useless….because back in my day I did not do that…fecking thramps they are….tax the youth…..get out of are country! In no way did my generation screw the world up! it was the youth! load of ballix they are!
Someone might agree with you journalvigilant, if they could only understand what your post is all about. I’ll pass.
sail away! we no need ur kiand around ere! go back and listen to yer boyzone!
even if voting age was lowered, young adults dont even have the appropriate education about all the politicians and their motives. when i try to teach myself watching the Dail it feels like the circus, only difference is that i took lotsa sleeping pills
Young people have a right to be young and a right to grow up. This generation gets neither as media has taken over at every corner of influence. It is because as young they are free not to be irresponsiblen and dont have to stay on top of whats going on. On otherhand have a right to learn in a process of growing up and not be thrown into Adulthood at 21. Told cant drink cant stand cant sit until 21.
Most young people come to grips with Adult world after going through a process of maturing. Allowing that is why jury duty requires age and driving licences. Leave young alone let them free to become radicals left right and centre as see fit. Evolve into their political skin without force or expectation. Or move Adult age to 16 for socialising driving jury adoption marriage etc. Cant be half responsible for one and not other. It is saying voting is not that serious. When if anything Irish Politics shows it is. Very. Whether better if kindergarden voted in 80′s and 90′s is not point. It has to be and is a serious Adult business.
As for Constitution convention, I dont know what that is No one consulted me
Free to not be responsible ( bron orm no error fix)
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