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EVERY EVENING, TheJournal.ie brings you the latest news and campaign moves, squabbles and – hopefully – useful tidbits of information as we face into the 31 May Fiscal Compact referendum.
(If you just want to make up your mind by yourself, you can read TheJournal.ie’s layman’s guide to the treaty).
WHAT’S NEW?
POSSIBLE COMPROMISE OF THE DAY
German Chancellor Angela Merkel may be considering a compromise on debt-sharing in the eurozone, Bloomberg reports today. Merkel is under pressure at home and abroad over her refusal to allow Germany to underwrite joint debt assistance in the economic bloc. Although joint euro-area bonds still appear to be off the table for now, opposition parties in Germany appear to have gotten the Chancellor to agree to consider a different proposal on a common liabilty for sovereign debt.
CLOSE CALL OF THE DAY
SPAM ATTACK OF THE DAY
The referendum is hot property, it seems – with the #EuRef hashtag being hijacked by spammers on Twitter earlier today. Don’t click on the link, it is neither “crazy” nor “totally funny”.
It should read: “the Bank Guarantee, Wrong then, Wrong now”
But I suppose that would not be an accurate portrayal of the Labour party position :D
Voting yes out of fear of not getting a bailout that we might not need,of a fund that doesn’t exist yet, that might get drained before we get to it, that will cost us 11.5 billion in total to join and that also has to be borrowed on top of bailout 1, promissory notes and economy costs etc..
Nobody ever got anywhere playing it safe, I’m starting to see why we will never get independence, most of the brave genes got taken from our pool nearly 100 years ago. Its left us with a high percentage of spineless zombies.
Bring on the red thumb junkies, I tell you because you clearly need to be told what to do.
Fortune favours the brave.
Don’t lose the cool. Spineless zombies?? This wont make friends. We can’t know what will happen in the long term. Too many changes coming down the line, e.g. Price of oil, developments in China, India, etc. Now it comes down to how we want the external world to see us. Let’s get away from the image of truculent rebel. Ireland will have to rely on the friendship of others for a long time. Sad, I agree. A new Irish world is needed but is a no vote a good start? We need a reputation that dealing with Ireland is an easy positive experience. Voting no will set this ambition back. It will show that we are tough guys that can’t be taken for granted. But then what? How do we get to the table for negotiations?
Terry, point taken/frustration. Iceland’s image is actually quite good and proving to be smarter than our path.
Voting No is the preferred choice across Europe “if” they had a vote, that is accepted.
They can reaffirm commitment publicly to rules that are already there to give stability, also maybe jail a few culprits all be it 4 years later without tying us up to what I really don’t think they fully understand yet.
The government told us that they were complying with the terms of the bailout agreement. Ireland would be back raising funds in the markets by 2013. They lied.
The government told us don’t worry as long as Ireland meets the terms of the bailout the EFSF will continue to provide funding until Ireland returns to the Market. They lied.
This week Lucinda Creighton told the truth. Ireland will not be able to raise funds on the markets.
A nation with sovereign debt exceeding 120% of GDP(approaching 150% when the Nama fallacy unwinds) and total debt approaching 500% of GDP was never going to be able to raise funds on the markets.
If Ireland got a write down on it’s bank debts, it would bring sovereign borrowings below GDP and back to a level where fiscal measures would allow us to tackle out debt and realistically return to the bond Market.
This treaty presents a historic crossroads to Irelands. Do we want to abandon our sovereignty and become a protectorate of Brussels. Or will we kick back and say no.
Despite all the bull and bluster Europe cannot allow a member state to walk away. To do so would have incalculable costs to core European nations. All it takes from Irish voters is a small bit of courage. A fraction of the courage shown by Irelands patriots. Who initially bought our sovereignty with their own blood.
Don’t sell it cheaply.
*
im a bit puzzled …if the yes posters are saying that sinn fein were wrong to back the bank
bailout does that then mean that the bailout itself was wrong and by extension all those parties that backed it were wrong …coclusion .the bank bailout was in itself wrong????
The bank bailout was wrong. It forced private German bank debt on to the Irish tax payer
Germany of course want the countries the banks are in to make the bank debts sovereign like we did, meaning the debt will be guaranteed keeping their banks safe from their gambling debts.. Germany would be the biggest loser if we let the banks fail so they are forcing member states to swap out risky bank debt for safe sovereign debt, through Austerity.
Hi Jennifer, you might want to fix the above as it seem that Sinn Fein didnt actually vote for the bailout, regardless of Labour’s ideas. http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/151008-sinn-fein-denial-bank-bailout.html
“Sinn Fein voted against the Bank Guarantee Scheme brought forward by Brian Lenihan on 17th October 2008. You can check this on the Dáil record and it’s on RTE here: Dil approves terms of guarantee scheme – RT News. This is the scheme by which the government is bailing out the banks
What Labour accuse Sinn Féin of voting for is NOT the bank bailout. Sinn Fein voted for the Financial Support Bill brought forward by Brian Lenihan on 30 September 2008. Labour did not.
The Bill said the Minister could act when there was:
a. A threat to the stability of credit institutions in the State
b. A need to maintain stability of the financial system in the State
c. necessity to remedy a serious disturbance in the economy of the State
It wasn’t a bank guarantee scheme, it was to allow for a bank guarantee scheme to be drawn up and presented to the Dáil if the minister thought it should be done. Sinn Féin was crystal clear that though the party had no problem with someone bringing forward a plan, we would not vote for it unless it contained
a. A bank levy
b. No more bonuses for bankers
c. Salary cuts for the top bankers
d. Support for mortgage holders under pressure, including a moratorium on repossessions
e. A state bank
None of this is in the bank guarantee scheme as it was presented to the Dáil and that is why Sinn Féin opposed it.”
Jennifer does not need to fix anything. Sinn Féín explicitly voted to support the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008. http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/Credit_Institutions_(Financial_Support)_Act_2008.pdf
Yes this gave the Government powers to draw up a subsequent scheme on foot of this; to flesh out the details but the principle of a full scale guarantee was already agreed upon by the Oireachtas; with the exception of Labour. The proposals that you say weren’t included do not mention any notion of “burning bondholders” therefore even if they were included, SInn Féin would still have supported paying back ALL bondholders.
So Sinn Féin agreed with the principle that ALL depositors and bondholders should be guaranteed, that is why they voted to support the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008 and that is the issue here.
Incorrect. As soon as fianna fail widened the scope of the guarantee beyond covering Irish citizens personal savings up to a pretty generous value (under the circumstances) to include bondholders gambling debts, they withdrew their support.
Have you proof to back up that statement- e.g. A Dail debate record? Without the guarantee, deposits of up to 100k were guaranteed- so the guarantee was only to extend to deposits over 100k and bondholders. By voting the Act through SF knew this and so knew they would ne guaranteeing bondholders and no amount of red thumbs can detract from this statement.
We cannot afford to borrow more money. We won’t be able to pay back the 173 billion we currently owe never mind the additional 60 billion Enda wants to snort up the public service nostrils. I’m a No voter hoping the Yes side are right and we can’t borrow more. I know there are many who share this view. Is there any elected politician who will speak for us?
Well I’m a Yes voter hoping that people vote on the issue of the referendum. One of them being that by saying that yes no other government can squander our money..
If u didn’t want a govt to squander money you’d insist they scrap the Croke park agreement
If u want to stop govt squandering money, you’d ask they scrap the Croke park agreement
Stupid app didn’t show original reply. Least it’s consistent :-)
Erm John, you realize that the Government argument for voting yes is to continue their access to the gravy train?
Did all the big business leaders get wind of Germany’s 6 point plan to boost economies, it involves making hiring & firing to drive down wages one of its key goals as part of its labour reform plan, also loosening regulations.
Anybody that’s a employee would be a fool to vote yes.
Google Germany’s 6 point plan. Its perfect for employers to exploit workers. Seriously we are going to end up being Germany’s ginger stepchild. Mark my words. Vote No
You should Google the Referendum & find out what exactly you are voting on.
John, When people make good decisions they look into the ramifications of it much like a chess player to see where it is going..
If you can’t see where this is heading you are very short sighted and making a mistake we will all end up paying for.
But its your choice and that’s democracy. Don’t say you weren’t warned is all, I’m just sharing info.
totally agree shayne. if the yes voters win then some day in the future they will have to look at their families and watch them suffer as years of austerity will have destroyed them. to vote yes out of fear and selfishness is utterly wrong and in years to come will be undefendable. the shame will hit when they have to explain to their children n grandchildren that they live in poverty cos they hadnt the back bone to make a stand. im fully prepared to continue in hardship if it means a chance of a half decent life for future generations. i believe we nees to say no. if the eu dnt loan then we default and go it alone. yea it will be hard and will prob take a decade or more to get bck in our feet but we would have a fightin chance. this bullshit of borrowin money to repay already borrowed money has to stop. as for the proposed esm for god sake people wake the hell up. we’d have to borrow billions to give eu to put into the fund. how the hell does that make any sense?? so we borrow money for them to loan the same borrowed money back to us?!??i pray to god the majority of people vote no.
its like this you won’t go for personal loan off the bank if ;you cant afford to pay it back. so thats when you vote no.the government are like the construction bosses sure we take the loan a nd make money and pay it back as you can see the construction one didn’t work so there’s not much hope for the governments one to work either
Amen to the No vote, Its time the people speak, we were once a nation of pride, have we forgotten our roots? Ireland needs a voice and it belongs to the the likes of the people who live in this country. We need to stand tall again we need to take a stand
Well said Caroline.
James… what is wrong with you ‘I cant wait to vote yes’
What do you think this is? A party or a vote to hold a Gig in the park.
If you think this is just a joke to vote Yes, then youre really making a great case for the No side.
I read comment after comment from YES people, insinuating that anyone voting NO is an idiot, a bum or just plain stupid.
I’m voting no for a better deal for Ireland, we’ve done everything they asked and got FA in return,
The greeks will get a deal, Germany itself got a deal after WW2, Time to show we’ve had enough..
Can’t wait to vote Yes :)
Turkeys voting for Christmas
Can’t wait to vote No
Can’t wait to say I told you so! This will finish off what’s left of economy
the follow up ESM treaty is almost a facist treaty giving dangerous powers to politicians and bankers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CZr17HLH5U
Vote NO to prevent your children being enslaved to foreign banks/politicians
Vote YES if you are stupid enough to believe the crap our government feed us..
have your say