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A ROW ERUPTED in the Dáil this afternoon over concerns raised about the Leaving Certificate predictive grade mechanism and how it will impact students.
Last week the Government cancelled the Leaving Certificate exams which were due to begin on July 29.
Instead, students will now be offered the option of accepting grades calculated by their teachers or sitting the Leaving Certificate at a later date when the pandemic eases.
Labour’s Aodhan O’Riordain claimed that part of the new system discriminates against working class students.
In respect of school profiling, estimated marks from each school will be adjusted to bring them into line with the expected distribution for the school.
“I sometimes wonder if enough people in the House or Irish society have any comprehension of what it is like to attend a DEIS school and the number of barriers between such pupils and their ability to maximise their potential in this Republic.
“In many instances, this is the only opportunity for students to break out of poverty and disadvantage. The one opportunity they have is a written exam or an exam where the person marking the exam does not know who they are, where they are from or the schools they attend,” said O’Riordain.
He hit out against school league tables within the Department of Education which he claimed are not accessible through the Freedom of Information Act give an “unfair representation of the education system”.
“With the greatest of respect, I cannot accept the answer the Minister gave to other Deputies regarding school profiling. The Labour Party will accept the assessed grades system as proposed by the Minister.
“We appreciate there is no other option at this stage, but we will not accept the school profiling. We cannot do that because it is fundamentally unfair. The simplest thing for the Minister to do now is to delete that from the process and let every script and assessed grade stand on their own merits,” he said.
Not pleased with the contribution by the Labour TD, Education Minister Joe McHugh said ”sending the message out today that they will be disadvantaged because they are in a disadvantaged school” was not right.
“That is a disgrace,” said the minister.
“There is no point in telling me you will not get in a row with me and pointing a finger at me and calling me a disgrace. I am calling the Minister’s process, not the Minister, a disgrace,” said the Labour TD.
“There are Leaving Certificate students listening to that. It is wrong that the Deputy is peddling that because exceptional students, whether in a community school, a DEIS school or a private school, will not be discriminated against because it is an all-school mark. It is a grade,” said the minister.
Social Democrats TD Gary Gannon made a similar point, adding:
Something you learn when you grow up in a working-class house is that somehow poverty is your fault. You work hard in school. You work hard helping with your siblings and supporting family members who might be ill.
You have to go off and get a second job while you are 16 so you can support the family income. No matter how hard you work, it will not be enough to shake off the limitations forced on you because of your family’s wealth, or lack thereof.
Sinn Fein’s Donnchadh O Laoghaire said he was not convinced the right alternative has been chosen.
He claimed that predicted or calculated grades are “far from reliable”.
“Even where they have long been built into the system and have a basis in track record in standardised classwork, recent State exam predictions being part of university applications,” he added.
“Here we have none of those things. Teachers are working with students who had no expectations their mocks or Christmas tests could potentially carry such weight as they now do.
“There are plenty of students who know that they can turn the gas on late in the year.”
Fianna Fail’s Thomas Byrne welcomed the decision to cancel the Leaving Certificate exams. However, he expressed concern over how the department proposes to adjust grades.
“I think that you’ve set out in the Dail the fact that the State Examinations Commission is not allowed under statute to get involved – this is a major flaw, minister, and it must be rectified at the earliest possible opportunity,” Byrne said.
“There is expertise and people within the State Examinations Commission that, in my view, would be of considerable assistance to this whole process and, in fact, necessary help to this process
“I believe that independent expert advice is absolutely essential to the minister and to the department in relation to the setting up of the model to ensure that no one is disadvantaged by this model and that no one is advantaged by this model.”
On cancelling the Leaving Certificate, McHugh said that after consulting with the State Examinations Commission and the Department of Health, it became “evident” that exams held in July and August would be very different to the normal process.
“It would not be the exam experience which students have prepared for and would have had an expectation of sitting before this crisis,” the minister added.
“The State Examinations Commission advised me that the examinations would not be comparable to the Leaving Certificate in any other year, potentially involving the needs for students to wear masks and gloves sitting exams, superintendents requiring PPE, and the prospect of the exam papers having to be redesigned to such an extent that they would have been unrecognisable compared to what students have spent two years preparing for.
“All this raises fundamental issues of fairness.”
McHugh added: “In addition to issues of fairness and physical health, I also had to give regards to the mental health and wellbeing of our young people.
“I was given advice by my department’s National Educational Psychological Service about the anxiety, stress and trauma being experienced by young people in the midst of this terrible pandemic.”
He said the new plan will allow students to progress to the next stage of their life.
With reporting by Press Association
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Going back to my own school days some students would definitely have been discriminated against. I don’t see how it would be different now.
@Ed: same here but I’d have to say they have a better class of teacher nowadays. More liberal and fair. But that’s just a guess
@Ed: I don’t know when your school days were, but I’ll assume they didn’t stop two months ago. Some context might be better; how were you discriminated against?
@Ed: Absolutely Ed. If anyone thinks that discrimination of some kind won’t happen, then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
@Macca Attack: Everyone has unconscious biases towards different kinds of people, it’s not necessarily malicious in any way but it’s crazy to think a teacher could be impartial to students they’ve worked with for 2 years. Simply impossible.
@Macca Attack: there are still people who should never have gone into teaching as a career but in some cases it’s what was expected, I know though a relative of mine who should be doing lc he had one teacher who lost half the students mocks papers and only gave them half the marks another took 6 weeks off before Xmas to do some course and no replacement teacher was available, in 5th Yr like a lot of schools there was no irish teacher due to none even turning up for interview this was a problem all over country, so it doesn’t bode well a lot of schools in Dublin were short staffed due to newly qualified teachers not been able to afford to live in Dublin because of low wage discrimination, mocks were delayed in a lot of schools due to a strike over this so I really don’t think it will be a fair system
@Rochelle: if a teacher cannot grade papers to a reasonable level of accuracy then they are incompetent. I speak as a teacher who has worked in many different systems . Papers (anonymous) should be moderated in house anyway .
I have to predict my students grades and if I am not accurate with the majority I am in trouble come renewal time. The predictions though are not a measurement of the candidates true capabilities but how they would get on in exams based on how they fare in exams on the same topics through the year with natural improvement and study habits and attitudes factored in. Also, If my predictions are consistently BS, my school/dept will be investigated by the exam body.
@Tadhg: I finished school in 2010 so not exactly back in the day.
I had a French teachwe who didn’t like me and was advising me (and my parents) to drop back to pass as I wasn’t able for it. I did honors French for the leaving cert and got a B2 or B3 (I can’t remember exactly now).
It would have been a disaster if that teacher was to award me a grade.
@Freddie Rincon: By that assessment 84% of UK teachers for A-Levels are incompetent considering they inaccurately predict their students final grade.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/18/predicted-grades-lottery-work-against-poorest-students-get-rid-of-them
@Freddie Rincon: what a load of codswallop.
@Tadhg: asks someone who was never discriminated against…..
Leaving cert could have EASILY gone ahead as planned originally in July. How would it be tough to social distance one year throughout a whole school? Even if it meant some teachers supervise the exams, it’s better than predicted grades. However, Me hole and Mary Lou kept on putting pressure on Fine Gael, trying to gain future voters. As well as this, the leaving cert students had an extra month and a half to study, but we’re complaining?! Whole thing is a joke…
@Dave: haha EASILY unless you’re from NPHET or the dept I am perfectly within my right to dispute your EASILY claim.
@Dave: my school had somewhere between 150-200 people in 6th year, so there was very little distance between tables when we sat the LC. If they had to sit everyone 2m apart there is no way they would fit everyone in
@Sam Harms: where did all the junior certs do their exams? That would be empty. Plus every classroom probably wasn’t used
@Sam Harms: they don’t have to be all in same room there are gym halls and other class rooms they just needed more monitors
@Dave: you also seem to forget the massive digital divide between students that have had no work sent to them since 12th March and the changes to the exams that would make them not a leaving cert and in actual fact an absolute sham. How can you narrow a six hour English (2 papers) down to three hours? The disadvantage with persisting with the exams was much wider that you seem to want to think. But sure after all as long as we keep tradition it’s fine. Nonsense
@Dave: If a teacher has a issue with a student that student will not get a fair chance from that teacher and no amount of equality can come from this, If the leaving Certificate cannot be held how in God’s name can the schools reopen fully in September.
@Dave: you’re a bit late Dave!
@Johnny O’Hooligan: if they haven’t finished their course work by mid March there is little hope for them. The course syllabus should all have been finished pre-mock exams. April and May are for revision and little else…and the little dears should he well able to do that on their own. They should have been flogging their passed papers and going over their text books at that stage…not still covering fresh material. Plus they would have gotten an extra 2 months to study. The exams should have gone ahead. It seems the government caved in to the students with demands for predicted exam results. Now if little Johnny or Jane get a bad grade they can just say, well…the teacher doesnt like me. Besides…if colleges and schools open just 4 weeks later in September what’s the difference??? Will 4 weeks make such a massive change in the current state of affairs??? It’s all a load of codswallop.
@nelliekel: I think a bigger problem was getting them back into school for 2 weeks before the exams. If they were to spread the students out through the school, then the original subject teachers could not teach their own class. There would have to be multiple teachers teaching each subject to small groups which would create alot of issues. . Also there’s no way students would socially distance during breaks. Some students also had access to online classes, others didn’t. So it was far from a level playing field. I don’t agree with students who do well but are in disadvantaged schools being downgraded because of the school’s previous progression rates to college. But I think otherwise the system is fair, given these unprecedented circumstances. And yes I have a leaving cert student!
It would be naive to think it wouldn’t happen, serious concerns about canceling the leaving cert, it should have been done in August and spread people out using primary and secondary classrooms with maybe 8-10 students per room, start college a month or two late and restart college next year at normal time
@Garreth mc mahon: exactly
@Garreth mc mahon: boring! students and teachers aren’t inanimate objects that can be dragged along this “maybe date” that we “hope” might happen in and around the 29th July.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: well on this occasion they can be, it’s about keeping them safe, protecting the educational structures of the state and the future of the economy and it’s recovery as steady as possible, this could end end up like the free driving license of the 70s where people where given something they didn’t deserve
@Garreth mc mahon: Now now don’t be so silly Garreth. We don’t do common sence in this country.
@Garreth mc mahon: oh but I thought the LC didn’t matter. Easy to change opinions when it suits people. It’s not as if students are going looking for accountancy jobs this September they still have a degree to get.
@Garreth mc mahon:
How can you still not understand why the exams had to be cancelled?
It’s nothing to do with the availability of venues to hold them.
@Doug: if thousands of people can go back to work, more stores open and work places can be segregated well so the leaving can take place, yes there is a pandemic but stop the whining and find ways to make things happen
I’m not a fan of his but Aodhan O’Riordain is completely correct on this. The proposed system with school reputation weighting will punish talented students in public schools while rewarding weaker students in private schools.
It cannot be allowed to go ahead, a fair system for all must be the priority.
@Rochelle: so what’s your alternative because clearly holding an exam with no schools open isn’t either. People seem to think that students and teachers are inanimate objects and that any decision made they can at the drop of a hat go back to working. Clearly you just couldn’t bother your arse reading the document on calculated grades and just decided that you would make up your own mind on this without any prior knowledge.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: The predicted grading system is a known failed model from other countries with a low success rate and a high degree of bias against students from poorer backgrounds.
The alternative was obvious, hold the exam in August using social distancing.
@Rochelle: why don’t you go up to Joe and tell him your superior knowledge because you seem to have all the answers. Funnily enough the other day you thought it was a good idea to void the year and pretend this never happened and now you want the exam to go ahead in August. So make up your mind.
@Rochelle:
Complete rubbish.
@Rochelle: If the average points achieved by students in a school was 300 and when we get the teachers to provide the grades (this year), that the average points are 450. It’s unlikely that there’s has been a quatum leap in student performance in the school, particularly if there is a large student group. Similarly, if the points dropped to 200. They only change is the teacher’s grading so this must be compensated for. The purpose is to minimise variability in marks due to teachers. The problem is not the Department of Education discriminating for or against students, it is teachers inadvertently or unconsciously discriminating for or against students. If there are any teachers reading this, note “inadvertently or unconsciously”. No-one is completely unbiased, even if they try not to be.
@Rochelle: that document you keep linking is the UCAS system used every year is when a teacher offers an estimate of what a student might achieve. There is no rank order by subject teachers or involvement by principals. There also is no involvement from the UKs equivalent of the dept of education so of course there is going to be large inaccuracies. This is completely different to the system the UK is using this year likewise with Ireland. So using this as a backup to your point is irrelevant.
@Conall: the difficulty Conall is that an exceptional pupil in a DEIS school will get their teacher predicted grade of 550 points dropped in order to tie in better with the DEIS school average while a disaster of a pupil in a middle class school with a 220 predicted grade may find it increased. Whatever way you look at it there is clearly the risk of further disadvantaging bright students from poor families. The solution is to just let the teacher-predicted grades stand without applying a school weighting.
@Lorraine Mac Rory: you clearly have no idea about the nature of statistics. I have a basic LC maths guide to it where standard deviations will be applied for both high performing schools and poor performing schools to accommodate high achiever and poor achievers. Also outliers will be catered for because what is statistics without outliers. It’s not going to be a model where bad school equals bad and good school equals good like your making it out to be.
So all the parties jumping up and down the cancel the LC last week. Now unhappy with the only possible alternative. Very easy be opposition.
O’Ríordáin is a disgrace he has proposed no alternatives throughout this and has stood in the background. If anyone using this as a political football it’s him. Standardization is to stop grade inflation. How is it ok on the 40% of applicants to the CAO that don’t attend secondary schools that points rise. He’s really p***ed me off recently.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: Aodhan is dead right. If Joe was in anyway confident about calculated grades, a discriminatory statistical model would not have to be used.
@Eoghan Stynes: what’s stopping any teacher giving h1s to everyone in their class. Nothing! It’s nonsense the amount of crap people are spreading about the standardization process. The problem is people don’t want to read the info from reputable sources but instead judge their opinions off sound bytes and supposed “experts” off Twitter and journal comment sections.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: If you don’t believe teachers would be professional in handing out accurate grades without standardising then why would you trust them to be professional in accurately ranking students?
And since you’re looking for reputable sources, here’s one on the UK predictive grading showing that only 16% of predicted grades are actually accurate to the students awarded grade.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/18/predicted-grades-lottery-work-against-poorest-students-get-rid-of-them
It’s a terrible system which is unfair at its core, any alternative is better.
@Johnny O’Hooligan:
The problem is people are commenting on standardisation but have no idea what it is.
O’Riordain is a teacher and should know better but is just using this for political purposes.
@Rochelle:
Any alternative is better. Really???
Lets draw the scores from a bingo drum thats an alternative so that must better in your eyes.
@Doug: and unfortunately students are going to bare the brunt of this. At least everyone on this can get on with their lives but students will these politicians and bar stool experts until the results come out. I can’t see a problem with it but it’s like fighting a fire blind folded thanks to people like O’Riordain spreading misinformation.
I saw a woman tweet that when she was in school a teacher told her friend she’ll be pushing a buggy in a heatons uniform in 10 years time, that same girl is now a successful solicitor. Imagine c***s like her predictive grading people.
@James Reardon: wow a solicitor what an honorable profession does specialise in personal injury claims? She’s have more morals and honour in the Heatons uniform
@James Reardon: what if the tweet was a fabrication itself?
@James Reardon: wow, my sister was told she wasn’t worth the paper her birth cert was written on by a nun in her school
@Tadhg: point still stands doesn’t it? Especially when there’s points on the line and a place in a college course.
If you don’t use expected distributions from schools a teacher could just give all of their students top marks and no one could question it so everyone would be incentivised to just give as high a grade as possible. It is not saying that an individual student or even a group of students can’t get a grade that is higher than expected in a particular class but if you think there is going to be a radical overhaul in the MEAN of a data set of that is normally distributed and probably has a sample size of greater than 60, then you don’t understand statistics, OR you want to build up your working class credentials again…
@Seán O’Brien: any LC higher level maths student can work this out and see why it makes sense but clearly education experts on this site no better.
I got 600 points in the Leaving Cert in a school considered to be one of the worst in my local area. What would my 600 have been revised down to, 400? This idea is grotesque.
@Orpuk Jones: aww cmon man that’s not how an even distribution works.
@Orpuk Jones: I would hope that teachers are allowed to make a decision to award high grades if an individual student is exceptional, regardless of the school.
I learned much more as a LC examiner than on any CPD I did. The marking process is considered “insider info”, something teachers who are not examiners are not privy to making it much harder to “calculate” a grade.
The proposed system is not perfect, holding the exams would be unfair to those denied access to on-line studies (not necessarily only in rural areas). It appears everyone can agree with both these points. Now would one of the nay sayers please come up with a process that will be fair to everyone?
Students will get an early introduction into how the “real” world works
@Damien Gill: ya thanks for that insider info. I’m sure LCs across the country will be shaking in their boots tonight after your comment.
Are people not worried that teachers/schools will want their students to do well so it makes them look good? I feel like being worried teachers will mark harshly is the wrong concern
@D: these sob stories of “ I got 10% from my teacher in a class test and she said I would surmount your nothing but somehow I pulled 625 out of the bag” are not helping.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: The truth never is an issue when something is done wrong.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: A doctor that is trying her absolute best to become a famous blogger had a lie like that recently, she said her teachers said she would never get medicine and wasn’t smart enough. I was in school with her and she was extremely clever and always did well and did not have issues with teachers. Absolute nonsense
“Sorry Teach, but we cannot make the voluntary contributions, due to unemployment, to minimum pay, to higher rents, to illness, and we are doing our best to dress & feed the kids for school.
Hope you understand, & we hope that your overall short funding won’t affect either or Patrick’s nor the school ratings.”
If the Minister & his experts believe that this “school rating” will be equitable, they either thick, or they are attempting to mislead the parents & pupils.
I have no doubt that the teachers themselves will apply honest assessment, & will be careful not allow bias to affect judgements, I would suspect that school ratings will warp the eventual group assessments.
And the Lawyers are hovering like buzzards to knock millions out of the consequences.
It amazes me why so many people have so many different views on everything ,- and they all believe that they are correct- , and it is no different now with the Leaving Cert. Why ,can’t we all just leave it to the Experts, any they are the teachers who work the Classrooms in this case. I at least 90% of cases they will get it correct . Nobody doing exams are going to get bad grades in Every Subject, one subject might disappoint, but sure an appeal can surely be lodged in that case. I doubt very much in anyone is going to do someone a bad turn, especially in a Leaving Cert. Exam .
@Eugene Comaskey: problem with a democracy everyone has an opinion. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing before I get hung, drawn and quartered.
@Eugene Comaskey: this is exactly the point of the article. If as a teacher I decide that this year’s kids are better than last year’s and I award grades accordingly the “process” will apply a school weighting and reduce my marks. We should just leave it to the teachers etc. Applying a school weighting is disgusting.
@Lorraine Mac Rory: can you do some research before calling something you have no idea about “disgusting” because clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.
@Lorraine Mac Rory: I’m telling you now if there was no standardization process. You’d be saying but teacher biases will be out of control. How can you stop teachers from giving everyone h1s. Realistically everyone and every teacher wants to do good by their student and the majority of teachers aren’t going to fail someone in HL maths. So if we have no dept involvement no one would fail maths. How is that ok? If we want fairness. Why didn’t you think about the 40% of applicants to CAO that aren’t in sixth years.
Glad people like you aren’t calling the shots. Keep your silly opinions to yourself and don’t go listening to Labour and SF who are clearly using this as a political football. Stop spreading misinformation. The UK and France are using this as well.
It is a very sad reality that some schools consistently preform very poorly, check out the League table published by the Irish Times
@Michael Keegan: The Schools never preform poorly The Teachers Do.
@Michael F Gorman: what are you talking about. By your logic a students intelligence has nothing to do with exam performance it’s the teacher.
@Michael F Gorman: ridiculous comment. so not having enough SNA’s and special classes for disabled kids, not having enough books and equipment and resources to teach, having hungry children trying to learn while worrying about their suicidal mother, kids bussed in from emergency accommodation, scared foster kids abandoned by their parents, grieving kids who’ve lost a brother, 8 year old kids who get themselves and their younger siblings ready for school and arrive cold, angry and late every morning……
You don’t think any of it effects how a school “performs”?
Sure…the middle class schools do better because the teachers are better. Right…
The key phrase in this argument in the Guidelines given to teachers concerning the process of calculating grades.
Paragraph 10.2
“The rank order within the class group is preserved in the statistical process. However, the teachers’ estimated marks from each school will be adjusted to bring them into line with the expected distribution for the school. Each school’s expected distributions will be arrived at from the statistical analysis of all the historic SEC datasets. These data sets allow the production of good calculationsof the distributions of marks to be expected for each school and nationally.”
Does this make sure the ‘good’ schools stay on top and the ‘weak’ schools will make up the running?
@sean o’dhubhghaill: why wouldn’t the good schools stay on top and the weaker schools stay where they are. I’m sorry but if a poor performing school that averages 100 points every year and that jumps to 500 points this year that should be flagged by the dept and corrected. That still means high performing students can still retain their high grades because the rank order is maintained.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: So, if a teacher in a ‘weak’ school for some reason, by sheer chance, a really good class, best class easily in 10 years, their grades should be dropped down to match the average grades for that school over the previous 5 years? Or should a weaker than average class in a ‘good’ school have their grades bumped upwards?
@sean o’dhubhghaill: the word ‘has’ should be inserted after ‘school’ on the 2nd line!
@sean o’dhubhghaill: you’re constituting that this is some sort of rigid process. I’m sure there will be deviations above and below the mean of school. Possibly +/- 1 standard deviation point but I’m only speculating.
Aodhan is such a hypocrite .He was Junior minister of Education to Ruairi Quinn when the savage cuts were brought in .One was where counselling I’m school was cut to shreds.Aodhan ORiordan was happy to go along with the cuts which happened in Deis schools and non Deis schools.
I have worked in a Deis and non Deis school.Both had much disadvantage. Aodhan is using students here to reshape his image of being one to savagely citing schools to one of being. Champion of.the disadvantaged .And this he most certainly is not.Aodhan your cuts did enormous dame when Junior minister left. kids with no counsellor in many cases to a place where they had no mental health support or career guidance.
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Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
Non-TCF/GVL Vendors
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