How many acronym’s does a child need? ASD, SLI, SLT, OT, SNA? Let children be children

I fully agree with that statement. I believe there is a role for SNAs and some are very good but a lot do not have the expertise or training to provide the specific intervention for complex needs. As a qualified EP next year, I will be recommending a lot more specialist highly qualified support than SNA hours based on the needs of the child. We want children to reach to reach their full potential and contrary to popular it is not always SNAs who enable this or are in the best position to do so.

it is great the school are getting more help but there is one thing thats not reconised in this contry and it dyslexia and lost of kids today have it. like my daugher and im told ever yr in the school that she way down the list …..its b coming a big problem unlike england who have a whole wk for dyslexia and reconise it. in school and work places. they need to keep kids with these problems there our futer

apologies for this re-post but it went in above the comment to which it is referring….
@Michelle McMahon
Michelle, before you ride hung ho through the world of recommendations for specialist help for children with special needs rather than SNA help, you need to do a couple of things;
1. Check out the defined role of an SNA,(www.education.ie).
2. Understand that if you fail to recommend an SNA because you feel that OT, ST, Behavioural Therapy, etc., is more appropriate, you will be doing the child and their school a huge disservice. Why? Because it is almost impossible to secure the services of such specialists because of their huge workload. The embargo on recruitment means that many counties are without the services of Occupational Therapists, Behavioural Therapists etc., for long periods and indeed most newly qualified people like yourself are either going into private practice or emigrating when they see the workload and stressful working conditions within the HSE.
The truth is that a child in a class or special unit within most primary schools outside Dublin will be lucky ever to see a behavioural therapist and extremely lucky to get one or two visits per year from OT and other specialists. These consultations last about an hour. The school then has to cope with a child who may tantrum daily and constantly endanger him/herself and others throughout the school day. How do you suggest they do that?
SNAs are recommended for a specific purpose, not to replace specialists like yourself, but to take care of the daily, and frequently minute by minute needs of the child, keeping them safe and their peers also. Due to the extraordinary deficit in specialist help in schools, SNAs and teachers find themselves doing far more than their defined roles, not by choice but out of necessity.
To refuse to recommend SNAs due to a belief that they are overstepping the mark by doing OT and other therapies, is to not understand the situation on the ground in Irish schools.
Perhaps a visit to a school, perhaps with an ASD unit,for a bit of reality experience would be advisable. If you contact me I would be able to organise such a visit for you and I’m sure that you would then go forth into the world of child psychology with unblinkered eyes, and an appreciation of the enormous work done by SNAs in the amelioration of conditions that upset special needs children all day, every day. Feel free to contact me.

@John O’Neill. Thank you for your offer to visit a unit however I have been in several over the course of my training. I should clarify that I am training and therefore working in Northern Ireland under the direction of Education and Library Boards, however I am from Cavan. Your comment has highlighted the difference between the two systems. My opinion is that ROI is much worse off due to the embargo. This will be my eighth year of university and 3rd year of Doctoral EP training and I will make recommendations based on what I believe will most benefit a child. How will things change if I recommend SNAs just because it’s reality? If I do so, I still vehemently believe that SNAs need training as a job description does not suffice. Self-injurious behaviour and complex social, emotional and behavioural needs require a level of understanding above and beyond that of which most SNAs have and in some instances a lack of knowledge is doing children more harm than good. NI appears to have more access to specialist provision currently although that may change given the climate. I understand the frustration and reality on the ground as I have encountered it but it is my duty to make recommendations and to be able to stand by them. Unfortunately the phrase capacity building is being bandied about a lot so teachers and EPs, SLTs etc will be working in a more consultative manner. I believe teachers are in very difficult positions trying to teach children with a myriad of learning needs but I also believe a lot of difficulty arises from the lack of SEN training they receive as trainees. That of course is another debate in itself.

Michelle… Perhaps the role of SNAs in N.I is different to that of SNAs in the Republic. Again I refer you to http://www.education.ie or http://www.ncse.ie for an outline of the role of SNAs. :-)

Michelle ur arrogance is breathtaking, you are not there to judge the qualifications of an SNA, you are there to assess the child. It is the school boards responsibility to get the right person for the job. A lot of SNA are highly qualified and trained in specific areas which will be of benefit to the entire school. Then there are those who come with less qualifications but a huge amount of experience and a love for a job that is often very challenging (and rewarding) wit possibility of extreme behaviour and violence. These people have to help a child on a daily basis cope with the challenges of a school day all the while helping the child to listen and learn. I have the utmost respect for these people, they do a very difficult job. They don’t sit in the safety of an office and make decisions, or can they walk out the door when things get tough. Every single SNA I have ever met has been committed and dedicated and brilliant at their job.

Mr Barstow, you are quite arrogant also to assume I know little of what an SNA does or the qualifications they possess. I see from a previous comment that your son’s SNA has been cut and I am sorry to hear that. You’re right, I do assess the child but I also recommend what type of provision or assistance they should receive. I have witnessed the brilliant work and some less so of many SNAs but as previously stated I do believe that they could benefit from training tailored to the needs of the child as each are unique. After all, these individuals spend far longer with the child than I ever will so would you not want them to be as highly trained as possible in order to maximise the assistance they can provide for the child? I don’t advocate cuts to SNAs, I advocate for betting training and more national standardised qualifications.

It is part of SNA contract that they are required to undergo training that the school/DES provide. And wot is ur opinion on parents? How shall you ensure that they are up to ur standards? It appears to me that you are just out of college and have to gain a little world knowledge urself.

As long as the training is provided and suitably relevant then there shouldn’t be an issue but it’s quite idealistic to assume every SNA is suited to the job- like all other professions. I don’t judge parents, I work with them and assist them in getting the best support available for their child. The child is my primary client, not schools or parents. Your patronising tone is quite offensive given how little you know about me. We all are heavily invested in children with SEN and work steadily to do our best. We might not always agree but that’s the nature of the system we’re in.

You are only finding me patronizing as I have hit a nerve. I do not intend to patronise you. It is a difficult path you have chosen. But by ur logic not all EP are suited for the job either (not assuming you aren’t) but my experience of EP has been memorable. I have had one who told me that giving a child multi vits would cure autism, I have also had one lock a child into a room. Many of them have had approx twenty mins wit the child and walked away, decision made, no discussion, no repeat visit, nothing. I btw do assessments for mainstream. As I said every SNA I have met (in my nineteen years experience) has been dedicated educated, experienced and an absolute necessity. I have every respect for them. Wit regards to my sons class I thank you for ur sentiment but I thank some higher being that my child does not have to go through the special Ed system in Ireland, I see the struggles the parents have to get any services, its a disgrace.

Over the last 5-6 years, how many SNA’s were appointed to kids whose parents practised poor dieting, i.e. had high levels of sugar in their system, or, both parents worked in high pressure jobs, and therefore the child was neglected relative to their peers in terms of time spent with them at home, or, heaven forbid, how many kids just aren’t suited to interacting with other children in a classroom or even worse, how many parents are just sh*t parents? Now i’m no expert, or teacher, but I did spent 8 years in primary school, ‘on the ground’, the way some people carry one the want a Special Advisor or Tutor for every 2nd child in Primary Education, I have 3 very close friends (and coincidentally their significant others), are primary school teachers, and when they describe training courses regarding Special Needs, they come across as L.Ron Hubbard disciples, and I know these people are intelligent, but they are brainwashed by their colleges, they never held such strong views before entering them, on this subject

What on earth are you on about?

Btw that comment was for Gaius because I’m curious as to what sugar and ‘bad parenting’ has to do with a child getting a diagnosis of a special educational need/ intellectual disability/autism, and then the related services. It’s not like SNA’s and special classes in mainstream school have children in who are just ‘difficult’ students or children who act the maggot, etc.

(pressed post by mistake)..,,already chaotic educational system bending under the strain of long-term government under-funding, even during the “good times “. Anyone with children should be concerned…

Great explainer, thanks John.

I work in the early years sector where we care for children up to the age of 6 years and we get no SNA support for the children with additional needs. To truly meet the needs of children, early intervention is important but how is this possible with no supports or adequate funding from thee government. children in this country deserve better.

I have to say that ASD units attached to mainstream schools can work really well when properly staffed and resourced. Not always the case unfortunately (due to cutbacks) and as you say if the SNA numbers are unchanged but special classes are on the increase, then you end up with a net loss of support overall.

I made an error above…I should have said NCSE ( National Council for Special Education), not Educational Assessment.

@Michelle McMahon
Michelle, before you ride hung ho through the world of recommendations for specialist help for children with special needs rather than SNA help, you need to do a couple of things;
1. Check out the defined role of an SNA,(www.education.ie).
2. Understand that if you fail to recommend an SNA because you feel that OT, ST, Behavioural Therapy, etc., is more appropriate, you will be doing the child and their school a huge disservice. Why? Because it is almost impossible to secure the services of such specialists because of their huge workload. The embargo on recruitment means that many counties are without the services of Occupational Therapists, Behavioural Therapists etc., for long periods and indeed most newly qualified people like yourself are either going into private practice or emigrating when they see the workload and stressful working conditions within the HSE.
The truth is that a child in a class or special unit within most primary schools outside Dublin will be lucky ever to see a behavioural therapist and extremely lucky to get one or two visits per year from OT and other specialists. These consultations last about an hour. The school then has to cope with a child who may tantrum daily and constantly endanger him/herself and others throughout the school day. How do you suggest they do that?
SNAs are recommended for a specific purpose, not to replace specialists like yourself, but to take care of the daily, and frequently minute by minute needs of the child, keeping them safe and their peers also. Due to the extraordinary deficit in specialist help in schools, SNAs and teachers find themselves doing far more than their defined roles, not by choice but out of necessity.
To refuse to recommend SNAs due to a belief that they are overstepping the mark by doing OT and other therapies, is to not understand the situation on the ground in Irish schools.
Perhaps a visit to a school, perhaps with an ASD unit,for a bit of reality experience would be advisable. If you contact me I would be able to organise such a visit for you and I’m sure that you would then go forth into the world of child psychology with unblinkered eyes, and an appreciation of the enormous work done by SNAs in the amelioration of conditions that upset special needs children all day, every day. Feel free to contact me.

I agree wholeheartedly with you EP, more training and on going courses are essential and beneficial in keeping SNAs updated and informed in their day to day work with special needs children.

Absolutely. I have worked extensively with autistic adults and children. However, it is my experience that “special needs” excludes gifted and talented people without ASD or other diagnosis. In a country focussing on a knowledge economy there needs to be provision made for theme, too. So many suffer low self-esteem from being unrecognised. Statistically, few go on to fulfil their potential.

Reply sent in next post.

Perhaps nobody in the country should get holiday pay. That’d save employers and the government a fortune…. Now how stupid does that sound?

Why not give everyone in the country more than half the year off with full pay John. That would really sort everything out.

The problem is not a lack of funding.. it is over funding that has brought about this messm

You speak with such apparent knowledge and expertise in this area. Perhaps you don’t realise that the wages of both teachers and SNAs are set specifically low in comparison with with comparable private sector areas to take account of the longer holiday period. And school holidays are primarily designed for children to have a break- not teachers and SNAs. If you think, as you apparently do, that teachers and SNAs are so well paid that six months wages are enough for them to survive on, then why don’t you decide on either as a career option…?

The preferred option would be if the teachers had a full year cycle, and schools determine the summer holidays up to a maximum of 6 weeks. In the Netherlands (just because I am working here and have been discussing this with locals), this six week period is used for planning the following year and meetings. But on average they get 8 to 9 weeks vacation, and parents, tax payers and teachers are (reasonably) happy as they feel they ar getting value.

In Ireland, they expect 52 weeks pay for 32 weeks work, and are completely inflexible, usually due to their summer jobs (summer camps, training, examination, writing books etc..). Then we get ridiculous arguments regarding low pay by presenting the average figure, which is dragged down significantly by new teachers, whereas if you just look at any school and see how many teachers have been there for 15+ years, and then check out the wages (+ mandatory bonus) on the department web site and see where the money is directed to.

Once we get the money sorted out, then we can focus it on SNAs that are qualified, and utilised correctly. From the govt stats, there is 1 student in 160 with a degree of autism, and 10% that need full time SNAs. This would equate to around 1 to 2 full time carers per average medium/large school. Fund this, but don’t provide funding a second or third non degree qualified ‘assistant’ who assist kids with a small difficulty in speech, maths or language. Too often, I have seen too many kids having to go to the assistant, purely because she has a bloody quota to keep. And schools looking for voluntary subscriptions to keep these additional resources at the expense of facilities.

But overall, I would check the details in this TDs press release to see how this is funded (the dail is still in recess, so no decisions there) and if there was already an announcement for this in the past that was reworked.

Never, ever, trust a politician. Especially where children are concerned.

Actually, it’s an annual salary not a weekly wage. Rather than spread said salary over 9 or 10 months, it’s spread over 12 instead. Whether you agree with the rates of pay given to school staff or not your argument isn’t relevant. If you want to talk about extending the school year or cutting public sector pay, then talk about that. So-called “holiday pay” is not the issue.

This is a daft comment. I don’t know what your issue with SNAs is but as a teacher of many years I can tell you that many kids who are now surviving in mainstream ed would not be able to manage…save the snide comments until you lnow what you’re talking about. Many SNAs I know give up evenings, weekends and holidays to help the kids thry work with. Cop on

@alien8.
What planet are you from? Only on that planet might there be schools with 20 weeks holidays per year. And, as if to confirm that you aren’t from earth, you continue with the following statement…
“…don’t provide funding a second or third non degree qualified ‘assistant’ who assist kids with a small difficulty in speech, maths or language. Too often, I have seen too many kids having to go to the assistant, purely because she has a bloody quota to keep.”
There is no such post that you describe in any Irish schools. You show a complete disconnect with the education system as it is in this country and are spoofing and generally talking through whatever orifice you, as an alien use for defecation…

The problem with a lot of teachers (disturbingly) is that they think we live in some kind of Utopian society where everyone achieves the same level of education, standard of living, and ‘everyone can be saved’, and the likes of Marino, St.Pats etc. all ignore the fact that children are individuals, and it’s impossible for everyone to be the same 100% in any sense, unfortunately, there will be those who achieve, those who get along and those who fail, this is life, we can’t all get 600 points in our Leaving Cert, we can’t all get 1.1′s in college, the irony is, that those who advocate SNA’s, stigmatise children

Gaius, You’re doing many teachers a disservice. Many are not living inside an imaginary utopia. They are very aware that pupils and students are individuals with unique needs and uniquely achievable goals. But the teachers are also realists. Theywork within an imperfect system; imperfect because of both the need to provide support and education within a set budget and limited resources, and the necessary evil of working with individuals within a structure that aims for standardised evaluation and grading. But just because they work with an imperfect system, it doesn’t mean they condone the failures of that system. From those that I know personally, they’d chose to work within the limits of system rather than refuse to teach. And in most cases, people teach because they like it, they’re dedicated to it, and, most importantly, they’re good at it. Reform would be great, but reform takes a lot of money and a lot of time.

Get a life. SNAS work hard on a one to one basis with children all summer. Then come in for a week when the kids and teachers have left for the summer. We also come in a week before to prepare for the coming school year. It can be challenging, physically draining , and in some cases there is a constant threat of violence. To say a SNA shouldn’t be paid for summer smells like one who thinks we do nothing all year. The child would suffer far worse if a SNA had spent a summer worrying about bills. I have worked as an SNA for 10 years and love my job. But by the time the end of June rolls round I am drained. The 6 weeks off between July and August is used to recharge my batteries so that when the child returns in September I can give that child my best. You wouldn’t last 10 mins in the job with that attitude

All the school year. And in some cases all year if they volunteer to do summer camps

Don’t know who u hang out with but I am highly Educated. Enough to realise u need a reality check and are unfeeling towards people in general. Any SNA I know are educated. It is a myth that they are not. Maybe U need to educate yourself

Lauren is a troll. In her Twitter profile she describes herself as…”quiet” opinionated and an aspiring author ..God love her…I think that just about sums her up.