…. gets out popcorn …

What they’re offering is available on the NHS but they’re charging £350+ for it, it’s not going to make a huge dent to the number of women traveling for abortions

Well said

Well put Anne.

It’s not free to Irish (or NI) women if they travel to UK. They still have to pay at a private clinic. This will eliminate some travel costs for the narrow group of women which fall within this criteria, but yeah…still not good enough.

Since August 2006 there’s been 461 such abortions carried out in NI on NHS, an Irish woman would have to go to Belfast, get a scan, see 2 doctors and get declared it necessary for her health before she could avail of this service. As I said before it will make a very small dent if any to the number of women traveling for an abortion

I belive abortion should only be considered if the life of the mother is in danger or the child will have a very poor quality of life. My knowlede of pregnancy and laws regarding abortion is limited but I do think that once a foetus can react to pain it should not be aborted.

That’s undoubtedly after 24 weeks (foetal pain is guessed at around 7 months). Marie Stopes in Belfast will only be offering abortions until 9 weeks.

their building up to !! wait for the those who want the women in Ireland to remain without choice!!!

That you for sharing your story, Diana. It’s horrible and inhumane that you and your family couldn’t deal with your private tragedy at home in Ireland. I hope people will try to find the compassionate that is sadly lacking for women like you.

Diana, I can’t imagine how hard that must have been for you and its awful that in this day and age that the procedure could not be carried out in Ireland and proper support given to you.

Had it been available in Ireland it also would have meant you could far more easily have gotten support from family or friends at such a difficult time.

thank you for sharing your story,

Diana.. That is truly horrifying.. It must have been an awful ordeal on your own. I hope things change here soon, a clinic opening in the north is small consultation really.. We need something in the Republic

The condition the baby had was trisomy 18 / edwards syndrome plus other complications. this was a dearly wanted child which was not meant to be. this was a late termination, because the previous consultant would not tell me what was wrong- i could have had an early abortion at 10 weeks. at 29 weeks ( when they eventually told me) i had to have an emergency termination (in the UK) as the spinal fluid of the baby was leaking into my womb.

Diana my heart goes out to u and your family. Its an awful choice u had to make.
What I am giving out about is people using abortion freely every time they make a mistake when there is people out there who can.t have kids. In cases like yours and also rape cases termination is the only answer. Again, i am a mother and my heart goes out to u .

Most women who have abortions are mothers. This idea that people who use abortion do it “freely when they make a mistake?” is so insulting. I’m guessing you’ve never had an abortion. The Irish women seeking abortions have all kind of stories, but I’ve never met one who just thought “whoopsie, abortion it is!” It was women who couldn’t imagine financially bringing another child into their home (because the current ones would have to go without – do you have any idea how hard the recession has been for people?) Women whose partners abused them, women with mental health problems who just could not care for a child.

Women take this decision seriously. And if you’re saying women shouldn’t have sex until they absolutely are ready to have a child, then you know nothing about closeness and love in a serious relationship. Sex is and should be a part of that, not just when you can AFFORD a baby.

Diana thank you for sharing your very sad experience with us. I hope you are doing ok.

It is cases like yours that make me pro-choice even though as a man I really should not have a say in the matter anyway. I want the women of our nation to get the care they need in their own country when they need it, not forced to travel to another country like a pariah.

Let our sisters and friends make the decisions they need to make for themselves without stigma and without repression and with whatever assistance they need.

I don’t understand what people have against people not wanting to murder babies. Soon you will be able to bring your old granny somewhere to be disposed of too and I’m sure some people will be fine with that too..

Ed, murder is the unlawful taking of human law contrary to law. If a woman has an abortion within the limits of the law then it can hardly be called murder.

The law is an ass.. It was the law once for a man to marry his horse, for black people to travel on buses with white people, for Jews to leave the ghetto. You can hide behind the law, but its very simple to me. You talk someone else’s live intentionally then its murder. Everything else is just a way of making people feel OK about it. If we start that now then eventually we will be able to make excuses for all types of people to be disposed of against there will.

” It was the law once for a man to marry his horse, for black people to travel on buses with white people, for Jews to leave the ghetto.”!!!!!!!!

I will leave it up to readers to make up their own minds as to your views on black people and Jewish people.

Abortion’s been illegal in the US for about 50 years now. I must have missed the massive murders of minorities which directly followed.

Unfortunately many women with feral anomalies will still have to travel to mainland uk for private TOP if a post mortem is required . Marie stopes offer straight forward termination in the first trimester . Most anomalies are not detectable until the 20 week scan .

Reading your comment is very worrying. That you would think it is bad to be prolife..as opposed to being prodeath. In truth that’s what you are saying but you will dress it up as pro choice. Do you defend my right to choose to murder you or anybody else. At what point to decide a life is life. When its convenient or when the law says it is. Very Sad state of affairs. But I’m fairly sure in a few generations when society has evolved most people will look back in shame that we can’t support people to allow them provide a good home for all children whether through adoption etc

I’m proud to be a pro lifer even if you think its such terrible affliction

The choice should be there for every woman, regardless of her reasons. It’s her body! Is it 2012 or not? If you disagree with abortion, good for you, don’t have one. If you feel you need one and can get it, good for you, go get one. It’s never an easy decision for a woman to make but it should still be her decision to make.

Ailis allow me to explain trolling. Trolling is when people go completely off-topic ( the topic here being the opening of a Marie stopes clinic in Belfast ) to express personal and irrelevant views ( BOO / HURRAH for abortion in this case).

Ailis allow me to explain trolling. Trolling is when people go completely off-topic ( the topic here being the opening of a Marie stopes clinic in Belfast ) to express personal and irrelevant views ( BOO / HURRAH for abortion in this case).

Ailis have you come across many women that have had an abortion calling it a lifestyle choice?

Pro choice and pro life- neither argument is wholly convincing and tiresome in the manner if their delivery. If we are to hopefully update our laws there has to be respect or everyone’s views so that a middle ground can be reached- so that people like Diana west don’t have to be forced to go through such tragic ordeals. Surely that is the priority and the current solution while people continue to wrestle with the moral quagmire that is abortion.

Other then ectopic pregnancies there is not the wherewithal to have legal medical abortion in the Republic of Ireland. Drs won’t do them due to the fact that they can still be prosecuted, they are not on the list of approved treatments, they are not insured to carry them out and there are no proper guild lines, policies or procedures.

no i had to go to the UK for an abortion- the consultants here said that even though i was at risk i would be better off in the UK- and thus i was forced to the UK. they were to scared to talk about it. My baby was not viable- no brain and missing part spinal cord. i had to travel by myself, stay in a hotel and return alone.

@Diana, that is truely terrible and a disgraceful indictment of our governments treatment of women here. I hope you got over the trauma, thanks for sharing.

@ Diana – I second what Andrea has said to you….it’s deplorable that we continue to treat any of our citizens like this, the unfairness and barbarity of it speak volumes. I’m so sorry that you had to go through that.
I would genuinely be interested to hear from those who advocate an ‘anti-choice’ position…can you honestly say that Diana should be forced to continue with a pregnancy in the circumstances that she described????

The condition the baby had was trisomy 18 / edwards syndrome plus other complications. this was a dearly wanted child which was not meant to be. this was a late termination, because the previous consultant would not tell me what was wrong- i could have had an early abortion at 10 weeks. at 29 weeks ( when they eventually told me) i had to have an emergency termination (in the UK) as the spinal fluid of the baby was leaking into my womb.

@Diana West Hi Diana just to let you know that we have a support group if you would like to come and join us all details are here http://www.facebook.com/MakeTerminationForMedicalReasonsAvailableInIreland?ref=hl

so so sorry for your loss xxx

Wow Séan, you are way off the mark there. Have a look at the ruling of the A, B and C case 2011 in the ECHR. The X case was never legislated for and the existing Statute (150 year old Offences Against the Persons Act) could in theory see a person availing of, or performing an abortion, receive a life sentence.

Sean health is defined by the who as physical mental and emotional well being . If there is a risk of that being affected then termination is permissible under law . While it may be available where there is a risk to the life of the mother or severe feral abnormalities not compatible with life exist you must also find a full team of staff willing to participate in these procedures . Staff can refuse to be involved under religious beliefs . Naturally there is a strong religious influence in ni with plenty of prolife opinions . Also where there is a trust based hospital system you cannot just walk into any nhs hospital and demand this procedure . You must be referred And trusts are not happy to provide such a service for other regions .

We don’t have it Ireland at all people r fighting for it with Daíl

Hi Neicy – I literally changed that a couple of minutes ago, as after it was published I realised that it looked a little misleading! Headlines do have to be short so in initially I said ‘Ireland’ and qualified where, but a few minutes later changed it to Northern Ireland.
Thanks
Aoife

It says NI, or is it too early for me to be reading?

It was changed within a few minutes of going live, so Neicy was correct when she posted her comment

Ah – so we’re all ok then – no early morning grogginess!

The original headline was not misleading in anyway.

As far as i know there were no private abortion clinics anywhere in Ireland, north or south, before this one.

And as far as i know Belfast is in Ireland too.

So stating it’s the first private abortion clinic in Ireland is perfectly correct.

Correct RG. It is in Ireland, just not in this state.

It will be ground breaking news to some women on this island who can now avail of the private services of this clinic without having to fly to the UK that can’t go through the NHS. Also the Clinic offers other services which some people want to avail of without going to their GP.

As much as this is a contentious issue in the UK, the NHS is pretty much a free-for-all. It’s extremely easy to avail of NHS services no matter who you are. There aren’t many people in the republic who wouldn’t be able to use NHS services in the north

Northern Irish women are not eligible for free abortions under the NHS in Britain. Marie Stopes is a private clinic, so I don’t think women in the Republic or NI will be eligible for these services for free.

It will not be free. I have been trying to find out how much it will cost. I know all the private clinics in England charge women from Ireland and N Ireland a smaller fee than women from the England, Scotland and Wales CHOOSING to go private (rather than accessing their abortions on the NHS) as they know these women also have to pay for travel

What about the “mothers” who committed suicide when faced with an unwanted pregnancy? I knew one and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

I would suggest that what women in those situations need is compassion. It certainly is very damning of a country(assuming that it took place in this country) to think that people take their own lives rather speak about the difficulty of their situation. I don’t think you are suggestion abortion as a solution to suicide(in some siturations)?

Did you even read my comment? She didn’t need counselling to talk about the unwanted pregnancy, she needed to end her unwanted pregnancy. And don’t be so ridiculous, I’m not saying that abortion is a solution to suicide (I’m sure the men committing suicide are not pregnant). The woman I’m referring to did commit suicide because she was pregnant, so in that case, yes, abortion would have prevented her suicide. You didn’t know her so leave it at that.

There has been at least one woman on this thread today whose doctors told her she needed a termination. Michelle Harte was another tragic case. Why on earth do you think you know more than a woman’s doctors?

It says it all really, that you would be so negative about a clinic to save women’s lives. Shows your views on the value of a woman’s life.

Surely no one is going to argue against the possibly negative effects on a womans mental health but thats not the point. A clinic allows a woman to weigh up all options available to her and then decide on what she deems to be the best course of action. Note the emphasis is on the choice of the woman involved and not your opinion.

A woman who commits suicide to deal with an unwanted pregnancy has a lot more problems than the pregnancy itself. Abortion was not the only solution to save her killing herself.

Again, no one is saying the only thing a woman needs is an abortion. Access to counselling is incredibly important. But, for example, in the X case, two psychologists testified before the High Court that if X continued the pregnancy, there was a real and immediate risk of suicide. If a young girl (she was 14 years old) feels that a pregnancy would be worse than death, do you really feel comfortable forcing her to continue? A majority of the Irish people say no.

You also ignore that now that there’s a clinic in Ireland, women will be able to take more time for pre-abortion counselling rather than the rush which often accompanies travelling.

@Nick Beard, There is essentially unanimus agreement in the medical community that says that induced abortion is never necessary to safe the life of a woman. There are cases where unborn children die as a result of certain proceedures but this is totally different matter.

@Skeptically Speaking, you’re convieniently ignoring the unborn child in the matter. I concede that personal automony is very important but we can’t hold the value of personal choice up against the the value of life.

Now, now, Carta. Baby Jesus doesn’t like lies. Please name me the three medical boards which have made official statements saying that abortion is medically unnecessary. You can’t. And oddly enough, all medical boards (including the leading one in Ireland, the Royal College of Obsetricians and Gynaecologists), recognise that any procedure ending a pregnancy that doesn’t result in a live birth (including miscarriages) is an abortion.

You’re wrong about your facts and maybe before you make misleading claims, you should back them up, rather than hoping no one is informed enough to call you on your lies.

@nick ‘a majority of Irish people say no’? 5 referendums in the past 30 years would say differently.

5 referendum? Oh, Aaron. Stretching the truth a wee bit, I see. The 1983 referendum clearly did give additional rights to the foetus. But the other 4?

I’m assuming you’re counting the travel referendum, information referendum and the first X case referendum as 3 different referenda? Well, the Irish people voted to enshrine the right to travel for an abortion and the right to information about an abortion in the Bunreacht na hEireann. Does that strike you as being particularly anti-abortion, Aaron? It seems to me if the Irish people were so opposed to abortion, they wouldn’t want people being given information on it?

As to the two referenda, both of these sought to limit the criteria on which a woman could get access to an abortion in Ireland. They sought to limit it from maternal health (the X case criteria, which includes a risk of suicide) to a more restricted criteria. Both times the referendum were defeated.

So to say the people voted 5 times against abortion? That’s a bit of a fib there, Aaron.

Could you point out where in the peer reviewed psychological & psychiatric scientific literature it states that a woman’s mental health is negatively affected by abortion?

To the best of my knowledge, no such scientific evidence exists. It remains yet another distortion of the truth which the anti-choice agenda has no problem putting out there.

Here’s a quick summary of the scientific research from the APA on the issue. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2008/08/single-abortion.aspx

If you’re going to boldly state something causes harm, back it up with actual evidence please.

@Carta Vida I disagree on your view that a medically induced abortion is never necessary, With regard to the consideration of the life of the embryo/fetus, it does raise ethical issues. In my opinion, as an embryo is unviable outside the womb, the mother is entilted to make what she feels is the best decision for the future. What the “best decision” is, is a matter for the mother to decide.

Aaron, you seem so so certain that abortion is just so wrong so lets give you a situation, all I want is a simple yes or no answer to my question.

Situation:
- we have a single mother who has two existing kids aged 3 and 5 years
- she becomes pregnant and it is found that she will die should she proceed with the pregnancy (in this example there is no if, maybe or buts…she will).
- If she dies the unborn baby will live but her two existing kids will be taken into care as she has no family to take them

Question.
- Do you think the life of the unborn child is more important then that of the mother and the lives and well being of her existing kids? Yes or No?

@Nick Beard I think you will find that I said ‘induced abortion’. You are correct in stating that in medicine abortion covers a variety of cases including ‘spontaneous abortion’ which is a miscarriage. Hence my distinction of induced abortion. For most (non-medical) people abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn child. It is unhelpful in a public forum to blur the debate by using a much less well known meaning of the term. Direct abortion, where the intention is to end the life of an unborn child, is not considered to be medically necessary. Because of this general meaning of abortion it is less likely that medical boards would make statements about it (although I haven’t looked into it) Our maternal mortality figures (best in the world) in effect prove that access to abortion is not necessary for the wellbeing of mothers.

@Ruaidhrí. See the following journals for the links between abortion and maternal mental health.
Dr David Fergusson in New Zealand published in the British Journal of Psychiatry.30% greater risk of mental health problem with women who have had abortion.
The widely publicised Finnish study in the European Journal of Public health which showed a significant increase in risk of suicide among people who have had abortions.

@ Barry. No life of the unborn child is not more important than the mother or existing child. The child is of equal value. The fact is that the situation that you described does not exist. Currently in Ireland women are entitled to receive all medical treatment which are necessary sometimes the unborn child dies as a consequence of the treatment it is a tragedy, but not the same thing an intionally ending the life of the child. Abortion is not a treatment for any illness.

Just out of curiousity, Carta, can you make any points without lying through your teeth? Did you actually read the Fergusson study? Because he says specifically, in the article, that his work does NOT support an anti choice view that abortion harmed women’s mental health. What he said was that more resources should be available to women making that decision. So…by wanting to limit a clinic offering good information and counselling, you are going against his recommendations.

As to more lies: not the best maternal mortality. According to the most recent Lancet studies, we’re fairly high, but not the best. Oddly, all the best countries have legal abortion. I think we could do better and should do better for women, including offering an abortion when two doctors certify a real and substantial risk.

You didn’t say the average person saw a distinction, you said the medical community all saw a distinction. Which is a lie. Plenty of Irish people see a distinction between medically necessary and non medically necessary abortion. But you’re fibbing about the views of the medical community.

It’s funny, it’s like you know anti-choice rhetoric can’t convince anyone if you tell the truth. So you lie. Not exactly a strong recommendation for your arguement, is it?

@Carta Vida In Brazil a 9-year old child was raped and made pregnant with twins. On medical advice her mother sanctioned an abortion to save her child’s life. The child’s mother and the medical team were excommunicated. Doctors at the hospital said they had to take account of the welfare of the girl, and that she was so small that her uterus did not have the ability to contain one child let alone two. Basically they were saving the child’s life. The Church in Brazil said the child should have been forced to go the full term of the pregnancy and that the babies should have been then forcibly ripped from the child’s body by caesarean section. The Church also said that the abortion was more heinous than the rape of the child.

@Nick. I think you have confused two seperate studies done my Fergusson a year apart. The later one which you cite is based on emotional reactions to abortion (2009) its aim was: “To document emotional reactions to abortion, and to examine the links between reactions to abortion and subsequent mental health outcomes.”

While is earlier study on abortion and mental health (2008) aims to: “To examine the links between pregnancy outcomes and mental health outcomes.”

The first is the link between how women felt about their abortion and the affect which followed (did how women felt about their abortion change their mental health status). The second which shows the 30% increase examines actual mental health outcomes.

Perhaps a more charitable response would be less embarrassing than a “Liar, liar pants on fire” approach.

Tsk, tsk, Carta. Lies again. The 2008 study on abortion and mental health disorders? If you look right in the conclusion, it says: “Specifically, the results do not support strong pro-life positions that claim that abortion has large and devastating effects on the mental health of women.”

And here you are. Claiming this proves that abortion has large and devastating effects on the mental health of women. Liar, liar pants on fire is pretty appropriate for someone who would deliberately and intentionally use the study in a way the author cautioned against.

Nobody said it was great. If you want to debate your point if view, fine. But don’t tell lies.

read my comment./case above rachel.

“don’t have sex until you’re old enough to mind a child?” That’s an incredibly insulting thing to say to women like Diana who were forced with a horrible impossible situation, women who would be assisted by the MSI clinic. The last thing we need is more cruelty and insensitivity like the bile you just spouted.

Yes, a 9 week abortion is the same as a paedo raping and murdering a child, well done there,

This has completely changed my mind lads, ive never thought about it like this, im off to have half my brain removed and join youth defence, cheers

You may want to assess correct and similar analogies if you want to put across an intelligent argument for your point of view. Someone drowning a cat/dog is comparable to someone drowning a baby, I guess a closer analogy to what your trying to express but isn’t as sensationalist would be someone putting a pet down at the vet, thats much closer to what abortion is.

Comparing abortion to the rape and murder of a child is in a league of its own as a frankly ridiculous statement though, I can’t comprehend your thinking behind that apart from trying to be dramatic?

In many cases there is no mistake, many rape cases prove this, there is also the situation where the mothers life may be at risk by a birth, what is your solution in these cases? If it was a mistake why remove the choice of the mother/father to rectify the mistake? Apart from the over the top dramatic “Abortion is murder” can you provide any real life reasons for not allowing a person this choice?

I’d say the biggest number of women going to have an termination is in the 35 plus age bracket, already mothers and able to make the mature choice

Some people still fall pregnant despite using good contraception . There is a failure rate albeit small with all methods , ocp , condoms , iud , cap , femidom . The only way to absolutely prevent pregnancy is abstinence and no contact with sperm . Some married couples have unplanned pregnancy and are in no position to cope with it in many ways . A fetus had no legal right . It is very unlikely to survive outside the womb at less than 24 weeks . Those born at this stage face multiple ccomplications and risks. A fetus is considered legally a person once the head has delivered . A 9 week embryo measures approx 2cm and has no limbs just buds.

No one is lobbying for a referendum. People are lobbying for the implementation of one decided 20 years ago.

Funny also how groups like Youth Defence haven’t come out in favour of the children’s referendum. It’s almost like they don’t care about children…

And they have every right to do so. It’s a horrible experience and if that provides them some closure, I really do hope it gives them some measure of comfort. NO ONE is saying parents can’t give birth. But you’re telling women who don’t think that’s the right decision for them that they HAVE to give birth and frankly, doing so in a hurtful way which implies parents don’t love their children.

You’re just being nasty and hurtful for some unknown reason.

While women who believe termination is the loving option are just bad mums who don’t love their children? Is that what you’re saying, Annie?

I had a termination, i held my dead baby, and i have a grave to visit. For me, terminating this baby was the loving option. How dare people tell me what i can do and feel. Not being treated like an adult who can make their own choice and decisions about my family is what makes me angry.

And nick what a contradiction. Loving option is termination? How can them terms go in the same sentence. Loving option to kill/end/ destroy?

I’m not twisting it, Annie. You’re saying women who give birth to children with fatal foetal abnormalities have pure love (pretty heavily implying women who terminate don’t.)

You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion makes you a Judgy McJudgerson who thinks you know better than women how much they love their children. But then, you regularly show your lack of compassion towards women on this website and I hurt for any woman reading this whose had to make that choice.

Ignore Annie. Far more of us understand and our heart breaks for you.

Some women find the idea of delivering a baby who is still born or will die soon after with severe abnormalities very distressing . Everybody copes with situations differently and women should have the option to chose whether they continue with the pregnancy or not .

Annie – the loving option to kill or destroy..
Never had a pet that was riddled with cancer and in pain put to sleep then, no?
I realise that you do not class humans and animals the same (despite the mammalian connection) but the point I am making is the idea that to kill something is a kindness is already well established when it comes to animals.

And believe me, if you spent some time with people at the very ends of their lives and saw what can happen to you, you might be a little more in favour of this “kindness” being extended to cover humans.

The idea that women will suddenly run out and start having abortions regularly is insane. It’s a horrible experience, one that most women would rather avoid and so use contraception. Any who have had the misfortune to find themselves in that situation would most certainly not choose to repeat it.
The drugs they use make you quite ill, and they muck with your emotions.

This “abortion as contraception” argument is trotted out frequently but I’m yet to see any evidence that it really happens. Anyone I have spoken to who had an abortion are VERY careful about their contraception because they NEVER want to experience that again. I just don’t see it.. Why would anyone choose to do that to themselves regularly rather than just use contraception?