Eddie…. Lo and behold

That’s the thing, and this gets said a lot in feminist, LGBT, race related circules, “Intent is not magic”. Even if they didn’t intend to chastise transgendered people with it, they still obviously thought little enough of them not to think of how it may affect them, and not to pull it when it was clearly causing them damage.

Agree completely Mark. “Political correctness gone mad” is just a meaningless slogan thrown around to muddy the waters when it comes to bigotry and intolerance. It’s an easy way to avoid engaging with the issue, which as you say, really comes down to basic manners and respect for others.

“Maybe white heterosexual men aren’t best placed to judge what is offensive to transgendered people”

Who’s to say a trans-gender person ISN’T a white heterosexual male? The ones in the ad certainly looked like white males, so they’re 2/3 of the way there already

What are you saying there Leigh? Is it that they can’t be white? Can’t be male? Can’t be straight? As far as I knew, the wider trans movement wants recognition that it’s members can be all those things.

It’s sounds awfully like you’re just lashing out in a hateful, racist, misandrist, heterophobic rage

spot on chuck, i see no one but leigh displaying hate on this page, maybe leigh should ask the average 45 year old male moscow native what its like to be a straight white male, or even one of the 150k odd recently unemployed irish fathers, my whole point was that ‘minorities’ seem to have this perception that their own feelings of being discriminated against gives them licence to tar all straight white males with the same brush, leigh has given an excellent example of this

Revolting Peasant; what about a 45 year old transsexual in moscow, or one of the many unemployed transsexuals, and may I add that transsexuals are far more likely to be unemployed or unemployable in the first place?

You are not describing issues that are unique to straight, white males.

You have still failed to show how I’m discriminating in the least. I am quite clearly opposing straight, white males, who refuse to accept the fact that there are privileges they have over others that need to be taken into account. You are sheltered from the issues affecting people in this advert, so you cannot claim the same level of experience with regards this, and continually show it with comments like this.

but i dont need to show how you are discriminating in the least leigh, its there for anyone that wants to read it

It was shown on TV. And finding a transphobic advert funny does kind of make you a transphobe by association.

thats a bit presumptuous to suggest that people that dont agree with the pc brigade dont ‘get it’ or understand the issues, maybe they just think its possible to have a sense of humour about it

@ Revolting Peasant Of course its possible to have a sense of humour about it, it’s a question of whether you care that you’re needlessly upsetting people while you’re enjoying your sense of humour. If you, as an individual, don’t care, then that’s fine – you probably can’t do that much damage on your own and I’m not even sure that people have any “right” not to be offended by you (freedom of speech, etc). But this is a large company with a large media footprint which can, if it’s not careful, have a real and negative impact on a minority and how that minority is perceived and treated within the community.

fair point Mark, i guess i was just assuming that all transgender folk arent hyper sensitive about something that’s clearly meant in the most light hearted way

Revolting peasant, it’s not your place to decide what we should have a sense of humour about. If we know from past experience that a particular message can cause harm to us, we have a right to oppose us. No matter what you protest, you blatantly aren’t educated on these matters otherwise you’d know how much damage trans-spotting can cause, and it’s equivalent to using abuse-related jokes with regards ciswomen.

nope, you are right Leigh, i havn’t attended any ‘recognising transgender issues’ courses, or even a psychology or sociology qualifications, i am just a fairly average person looking at a bizarre over-reaction from someone that comes across as very angry over a harmless (if stupid and tasteless) attempt at humour, i dont accept your point that its the same as poking fun at victims of crime, its not my fault that you have no appreciation for the fact that there are levels of seriousness to most things, may i suggest a sedative prescription?

lol calm down u lunatic, why do u assume i refuse to be educated?, are u frothing at the mouth or what? you are coming across as the most judgemental person in here, the assumptions you are making about people u never met are bizarre

get a life revolting…youve just accused Leigh.of doing exactly what you Chuck.and joxer are doing…making assumptions bout folk.you have not met. Leigh.is simply informing us of the damage this school.shed humour does to.people but you are just not listening

What assumptions have I made?

It’s not enough to say something – you have to back it up or your argument is worthless

eh colm? for one thing i am not claiming the higher moral ground, for another i am not suggesting people are accepting of a rape culture, even you can see she is over the top in her posts , you say ‘Leigh.is simply informing us of the damage this school.shed humour does to.people but you are just not listening’, i am fully aware of what you are saying, i just dont agree that this ad is that effective at belittling people as it is obviously a feeble attempt at humour with no cruelty intended, leigh is quite clearly showing a strong level of judgement for both white males and people that grew up in the celtic tiger, and by the way, i am neither of those things, are you really trying to claim she is not coming across as unreasonably angry and biased?

I’m sorry for making the assumption that someone who calls us “cross dressing neanderthals” is probably a transphobic asshole, but that’s kind of a tautology.

And I bet you had to look that word up.

see leigh there you go again with your assumptions, i was actually referring to myself when i said that, once again, i could list out a number of times you have insulted me but i would prefer if you keep posting these remarkable examples of hypocrisy

You had already called him a neanderthal asshole, so your use of the word tautology is negated, please don’t try play on words as it is necessary to completely understand them to seem superior, you are loosing any thread of respect and your use of obscure language could be construed as a form of bullying….

I’m sorry for making the assumption that something you actually wrote was written by you.

Wait, what?

Is that your comeback…obviosly missed the point completely..if you are going to use obscure words understand them, I qouted anothers posting but obviously missed on you.. but then by the level your stooping to now you don’t have anything constructive to add if you can’t say anything constructive say nothing at all

I didn’t call him a neanderthal asshole. I called him an asshole, which is an extremely impersonal insult. He called us crossdressing neanderthals, which is an extremely personal insult, and one that should rightfully earn a week’s ban from commenting, and would on most sites.

I am not the kind of person, obviously, who thinks words like asshole should never be used. I think they should be used to describe people who are disrespectful for abusive – which to someone who came into this thread trivialising all transgender issues as PC nonsense – is quite appropriate.

actually leigh you called me an asshole in more than one post, one of them was ‘utter asshole’, (it wasnt personal) and once again, i didnt call you a cross dressing neanderthal at all

“watch out for the cross dressing neanderthals joxer, they seem to be everywhere these days”

^ Did you or did you not say this in response to myself and a couple of others posts earlier on in the thread? Do I have to screen cap it for you?

I’m calling you an asshole because you’re being one. You’ve been disrespectful from the get go. You trivialised issues that affect transgendered people by writing it off as PC crap, and have consistently been disrespectful, insensitive and downright horrible. I would doubt any stable, intelligent trans person on earth would find you anything short of extremely unpleasant.

You admit yourself you have zero education in this field, yet still insist on hoisting your ignorant opinions on us. Do you understand what “ignorance” means and why it’s a bad thing?

You are upsetting just about every trans person I know with these comments. If you had any respect, you’d stop. Calling you an asshole is an impersonal insult. It does not relate to any traumatic experiences you may or may not have had.

yes leigh i most certainly did write “watch out for the cross dressing neanderthals joxer, they seem to be everywhere these days”, i have never denied writing that, please tell me where i also wrote that i was alluding to you or a any members of the transgender community? more assumptions

Then clarify for me exactly who you were referring to? And you do know that comment was removed by a moderator, so I’m not the only one who found it absurd.

Also, you’ve still to argue a single actual point. You’ve been arguing nothing but semantics from the get go, and all of your posts, essentially, can be summed up with “Wahh political correctness, you’re the REAL bigots.”

To someone that actually experiences real discrimination every other day of the week, that is deeply disrespectful and insulting. Getting hassled over coming into a comment thread making light of people’s issues is going to get you hassle.

you are such a hypocrite leigh, you havnt answered a single point anyone challenged you on and MOST of your insane screechings have been removed

disgraceful advert..trying to.make money out of slagging off vulnerable marginalised people and pandering to the baser human instincts.

Absolutely. It is crass and offensive and should be withdrawn. It’s like something out of a bad 70s ‘comedy’ routine..Paddy Power need to grow up.

Couldn’t agree more Colm. Its not even funny. However, their marketing department got one thing right…people are talking about it.

How is that offensive? I thought it was quite funny. The idea that you couldn’t tell the trans-gendered people from the others. I actually couldn’t.

Because it’s encouraging people to spot which ones are real or not, making a game out of their identities. It is not a game to transgendered people, and uncovering their identities often results in violence. If you don’t know, then take the time to find out. It’s only respectful.

There was mention of Nazis and all, mad!

its getting a tad militant

What’s militant is when you storm into the thread accusing a minority you know fucking nothing about of being PC GONE MAD!!! without giving a shit about how the behaviour encouraged in the advert has resulted in severe social exclusion and violence.

By the way, not fucking once have you actually dealth with this point, just called me a bigot over and over, which is not funny or ironic.

but you are doing it for me leigh,you are showing discrimination in practically every post, it is plain that you arent recognising the level of discrimination in your own remarks, i dont really see the point of trying to explain as you cant seem to grasp the contents of the majority of the posts in here

You continually accuse me of discrimination and bigotry but are consistently unable to explain how I’m doing this or why I would even do it.

Transpeople put up with abuse every second day of the week. We put up with real life bigotry, not people telling you you’re an asshole on a comments section and comparing the two is laughable – you brought it upon yourself in every conceivable manner possible. Transgendered people do not bring mockery, violence and exclusion on themselves. That’s called victim blaming.

Insisting a transwoman who stands up for herself is “the real bigot” is hurtful not just to me, but to every marginalised person who’s had to stand up for themselves. It’s trivialises their issues by making out calling someone on their privilege to be as hurtful as hate fueled violence or discrimination.

It’s also lazy arguing. Why not focus on what I’m saying and debunk it, in the same manner I’m explaining the flaw in what you’re saying now?

If you had any respect, you would not make comments like this. This is why you are being called an asshole. And you have been making these since you came into the thread, again, dismissing trans issues as “PC crap” or whatever variation you used at the time. This is why I am criticising you, not because of your identity.

its not lazy arguing leigh, i just dont see any point in highlighting examples that are already there for everyone too see, i repeat my assertion that you are failing to grasp the content of most of the posts, including your own

What the hell? You’re an idiot who came in here screaming POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD before bothering to grasp the contents of the complaints against the advert. Let’s not play this game, you’ve ignored what’s actually been said completely and haven’t dealth with a single point as to why offense towards this advert is valid.

All you have done is call me a bigot over and over, all while white knighting for a bigoted cause.

leigh you just seem to get every single point wrong and then make the most feeble attempts to twist what everyone says to suit your own argument, it really is quite funny how mad you seem

Maybe you should let trans people, who this ad is targeting, and who are affected by this ad, decide how it affects them? Since they’d have more experience than you, and all.

What’s depressing is how much rejection and violence trans people meet with. Can you imagine a “spot the nigger” advert?

i wasnt nervous or wary of transgender folks up till now, leighs massive over-reaction has made me wonder if they are all like that

You’re judging a “Massive over-reaction” on something you have no clue about. I’ve explained why it’s a big deal, and you proceeded to ignore every single point I made. You put your ignorance above those who are well educated in the matter at hand. Arguing with you is like arguing with some drunk eejit in a run down pub.

arguing with you is like arguing with a complete nonsensical, self righteous, hormonal, angry lunatic

*ad

Thank you for the correction “CPM”
All though I had realised my “TYPO”
the moment I pressed submit and I did think to myself shit…Then I wondered would any one even bother to comment on my mistake..
Low and behold an email ..
It was your good self CPM.
Some people have little to do..
Always one !!!

Good man yourself, Eddie. And for future reference there are three periods in an ellipsis…

You must be on your third period by now Cpm. My, but don’t ye grow up fast… ;)

@CPM
You should never start a sentence after a full stop with And. Just thought you should know.

periods? don’t we say full stops here?

@mypolitics – it’s perfectly acceptable to start a sentence with a conjunction. Google it.

@ revolting peasant – an ellipsis is defined as follows: “The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three periods or full stops (…) or a pre-composed triple-dot glyph (…). The usage of the em dash (—) can overlap the usage of the ellipsis.”
Thanks for playing though.

thanks cpm as i have lost the ability to define

Along with your ability to capitalise sentences, Champ

oh i can sometimes stretch me finger over to the caps lock on occaision, i just find those that insist on such things as proper punctuation and grammar to be anal in the extreme….<-4 dots? arrest that man!

You do realise you just defended the right for any advertiser to exploit transgendered people for a quick buck, right?

You’re playing into their hands, just what they needed, more publicity. If the ad had been ignored you would have the outcome you desire as it would have most likely been shelved due to lack of impact, god sometimes the stupidity of you so called defenders of PC is amazing. The whole thing is a storm in a teacup ( or A/B/C cup ). The TG’s taking part in the ad understood what they were doing and had no problem, so why do you feel you have to protest on their behalf, in fact you are probably pissing them off too. GET A LIFE AND DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL.

Now there is an attempt to troll if I ever saw one :). Sorry, no fish for you today.

So you try and dismiss an oppossing viewpoint by calling me a troll, why not counter argue the points raised, or is this just your current popular hobby horse.

Michael, see the post I made to Joxer just about you.

Also, if this becomes a big thing, Paddy Power could take a serious hit to it’s image and therefore profits. It also helps the trans community gain recognition as traditionally we are treated as the doormat of marginalised people/minorities.

A shithead like you has never had to stand up for himself on this scale, no doubt, so what would you know?

hahaha leigh you really are making a great representation for your side of the argument, insult everyone that doesnt agree with you in the most foul language you can think of, that will get your point (and character) across nicely!

Revolting peasant, I love how you show your intellectual dishonesty by claiming it’s merely because you “disagree” with me, and not because you’re making remarks like “cross dressing neanderthal”. Maybe if you took a more respectful tone, people wouldn’t treat you like an utter asshole?

Leigh..these people & their sad pathetic views are not worth reacting to. they are basically trolls playing at schoolyard bully. for the record I commend your courage and fully support full equality

FFS Colm cop on, why do we have to walk on eggshells, no one is saying anything negative about Leigh, you perceive any comment as being a slander, in the real world they need to be themselves and people will like or dislike them not for their status , but just for them themselves…God you are definitely with the PC police, butting in without understanding……..

i think your “wrong time of the month” comment leaves it open for negative inferance. also i did not refer to.you individually…there are others here who are just plain.bullying..obvious to an objective viewer. slander btw which i didnt mention…is spoken not written. i simply congratulated leigh on.her courage and signalled my support for full equality for all LGBT people. you are getting uppity for no good reason. and fyi ive been seriously insulted regularly by a certain.commenter over last week so my advice is for leigh. you are the one jumping in

Getting uppity for no good reason, would you go take a long walk of a short pier, the whole point was that all this reaction is just what PP’s wanted, you then had Leighs’ misconstrued comments because he/she has issues with their gender and perceived view by me. I reiterate my judgement of leigh would only be based on meeting him/her and not on his/her status..so in that context YES you are butting in.

michael…telling me to take a long walk off a short pier….do you seriously expect me to take you serious! i repeat…i did not mention you

i think your “wrong time of the month” comment leaves it open for negative inferance, your opening statement, my intentional glib comment, who else were you refering to?

Silence is golden…..

Sir you butted in when.i posted a message to Leigh about trolls playing the schoolyard bully. i mentioned noone but its obvious who i was referting to and it was not you. you took offence and I rightly pointed out your comment re time of the month..glib or not its sexist and demeaning. you have then urged me to commit suicide…again for the final time I was not talking to or about you so please grow up

Leigh, you are clearly speaking from a position of authority and experience on this subject so don’t waste your time responding to those who are simply looking for a reaction. You will never be able to reason with that kind of nonsense.

And on a welcome note, Paddy Power’s transphobia is now the subject of an investigation by the Advertising Regulator in the UK.

“No, everyone has an equal right to speak and you can put as much credence in their words as you choose. ”

People inexperienced on trans matters do not have a right to decide what should constitute offense for trans people. There should be no debating this.

“You have no problem lecturing straight white men about their position in life,”

No – lecturing straight white men for commenting on something that lies outside their field of experience. Get it right, and don’t put words in my mouth.

“Show me who did that”

Anytime someone talks about the “PC Brigade”, that’s what they’re doing. Anytime anyone calls it an over-reaction, in the rather insistant, obnoxious manner in what they do, they are trying to silence trans people by embarassing them into submission. They have actively made it clear they do not think transgendered people should be raising complaint. Again, there is no debating this.

“Here we go again. You don’t know what people here know.”

There have been instances when people here have shown a clear lack of education on trans issues. If you have education on trans issues, it is your job to prove it to me, a trans person. Otherwise, we assume the trans person knows exactly what does and doesn’t offend them.

You’re trying to make me look like the abusive one, but again, you’re basically just justifying the idea that the demographic made up primarily of straight white males should decide what constitutes offense for the very alien to them transgender community.

“No, it’s fascist”

You’re fucking clueless. Real actual fascism is about one strong, singular national identity above all else. It is completely the anti-thesis to LGBT rights amongst other things and there are outright transphobes commenting on this(MyPolitics).

“No one said you had no right to be offended. Someone said you had no right NOT to be offended, and I agree. Freedom of speech is more important than your feelings. We have laws to prevent incitement to hatred or violence and that’s enough”

Which the advert in question technically breaks, as has been pointed out. It’s already been explained how this would lead to abuse towards trans people, you just haven’t listened.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/20/comment-paddy-power-thinks-its-fun-to-play-spot-the-trans-lady-want-to-bet/

It is the voice of transgendered people that needs to be heard here, because the are the ones affected. The opinions of those who are not transgendered is not relevant to this cause, yet overwhelmingly those the ones we are hearing, and the most forceful of them.

“Where am I attempting liberalism? I prefer libertarianism”

Right wing loony Ron Paul Libertarianism? That explains how you don’t seem to understand privilege at all>

“How do you know?”

Because they are showing a lack of understanding of key concepts that marginalised people would understand – such as that of privilege.

Either way, it’s still a position traditionally used by those who are sheltered and privileged in some ways, older Daily Mail readers, etc.

“Now THAT’S taking ownership of your privilege!”

Yes, because trans people have privilege over cis peopel. Idiot.

“vThe veil slips”

Again, transgendered people are the ones being affected here. Transgendered people are the ones who should decide on what does and doesn’

It’s laughable that you call this fascism, when transgendered people are highly oppressed and have very little ability to speak out?

Why do you care more about my supposed “fascism” which is utterly inconsequential since I have no power over anyone? Please answer me how you can argue this case, and still claim to be a good human being?

I am going to keep calling you out on this. You are only showing concern for straight, white people or people like yourself. Not once have you shown the tiniest ounce of concern for trans people despite them being a heavily marginalised group.

“You mean you, right? And not the ones who were in the ad?”

Do me a favour. Google around, and come back to me when you find a *single* transgender group coming out in support of this advert. While you’re at it, count the number of ones that rally against it.

I’ll be here when you’re finished.

“Wonderful argument. it doesn’t matter what evidence is adduced or what you say ”

Actually, I’m the only person who’s provided any evidence at all in the form of hate crime statistics, etc.

Though when talking about lived experiences, it’s hard to provide solid evidence. That’s where respect should kick in, and is where you lack.

” You reserve the right call people idiots and assholes, but what do you think the reaction would be if Revolting Peasant had responded to your name calling with body-part name calling of his own? That’s a double standard and that’s a special privliege which you are perpetuating”

The double standard is that you call me on my “fascism” but don’t care about the vast trivialisation of trans issues by people like Revolting Peasant. You cannot do this and claim to be a good person.

Again, you do not care about trans people, and not once have you demonstrated any indication that you do. Consistantly, you have only defended those of privilege, who do not need defending.

That’s worse than a double standard – your priorities are completely wrong. When confronted with a small and highly marginalised group, and those attacking them – you side with the bullies.

Complaining about the “PC Brigade” when trans . At the very least, you should be offended at this. But you’re not, because your interests are only in defending people like you and upholding the status quo.

You’re talking down a member of the most downtrodden minority in society, who’s life has been made miserable by constant mockery and bullying, instead of those attacking me. You are telling me I don’t have a right to be angry at the kind of people who would abuse me or justify my abuse.

Big fucking man aren’t you?

lol got tired by word 400 zzzzzzzzz same ol tripe leigh

Leigh if you want to respond in a point-by-point fashion that’s fine but selecting fragments of sentences in such a way as to change their meaning makes you seem even more dishonest than you already do. There are so many things to correct, I cant get to them all

It’s not my ‘job’ or anyone elses to convince YOU that they have a right to express their opinion. They just do. The constitution, the ECHR and UN’s UDHR say so. Thankfully, you can’t do anything about that.

I made no comment on the ad. I came to this as a third party reading the comments. You involved yourself in a debate as to the offensiveness (or lack of) of this ad. Im a third party, if anyone has a ‘job’ here then it’s YOUR job to sway people to your side of the argument. If you have special knowledge and right on your side then that should be easy. Instead you just screech at them to stop talking. It’s very simple – when Piggy has the conch, he gets to speak and you don’t get to drop rocks on his head just because you don’t like what he says. The audience (me) are smart enough to make up our own minds about who to listen to. We don’t need you to protect us, especially at the cost of our basic rights.

By the way, “you’re a fucking scumbag” isn’t persuasive.

If you were really concerned about people speaking from a position of ignorance, you’d have taken issure with Darren Swan who commented ON THE AD! WITHOUT WATCHING IT! But you didn’t. You reserved your ire for people who disagreed with you. Ergo – it’s not lack of education you can’t abide, it’s dissent. You explicitly say that white, straight men can not express an opinion. These two factors make your ideology dangerous. You don’t allow people born a certain way to speak, and you don’t allow criticism.

Your assumptions/distortions about me are preposterous. You inform me what colour, sex and sexuality I am without any knowledge. THAT’S speaking from a position of ignorance. You say that I don’t speak out for any group that I’m not in – which directly contradicts what I said above.

Then there’s your attitude to groups. You use ‘we’ and ‘I’ interchangably. You can’t point me to anyone saying that Trans people shouldn’t be allowd to express an opinion because that didn’t happen. Some people expressed a view that the ‘PC brigade’ were extremists. That’s not even close to being the same thing. No-one is trying to silence anyone, except you, and in any case “the PC Brigade” is not a synonym for “trans people”.

You also seem to be unable to distinguish between a person and the group into which they are born, assuming privilege where it suits you. I criticse you for who you are, based on the evidence I see here. You criticse white men for WHAT they are. Yours is a prejudice, mine is a postjudice.

This is hilarious! You’re saying this as 1) Someone who’s blatantly not trans, 2) Someone who has no clue about trans issues, 3) A straight(presumably) white male who’s deeply sheltered from the kind of real world issues transfolk face.

Where do you think you get the right to lecture us about the “Real World”? Trans spotting causes real harm to trans people on a number of levels. Do you have any clue what it’s like to have people constantly speculating over your real, pushing the fact that “Oh you’re really a guy” in your face constantly? Not to mention the violence this can result in. It’s utterly degrading to write off genuine rejection of the advert as “PC brigade whining”, it makes you look like a sheltered child and do you have any idea what real “political correctness” is?

Educate yourself before you comment. Real world my ass. Fucking Tiger cubs.

…….and yet, it’s fine for you to disenfranchise him because of his sex, race and sexuality? Got hypocrisy?

exactly Chuck, pot calling the kettle (and i mean this in a completely non-racist way ^^) black, talk about spewing hate at one section of society

Where did I do this? The point is that these comments are made more often than not by straight, white males, just as most anti-abortion activists are males. You are not in a position of experience to tell us about our issues. Yet you are the loudest and most obnoxious voices.

The only people being disenfranchised here are transgendered people with comments like “cross dressing neanderthal”. None of us have the power to disenfranchise the privileged here, that’s a ridiculous idea. The fact is that you will never find yourself the target of the kind of abuse that transgendered people receive. You can say that just because you’re normal, doesn’t mean you can’t have it bad, but pretty much anything you take transgendered people take *on top* of their own issues.

This failure to recognise the existence of privilege is what makes you uneducated on these issues.

Ok Leigh, it’s obvious you don’t understand the word ‘disenfranchised’

It means to deprive people of their vote – and every time you question the right of anyone who was born a certain way* to have their say on this or any other issue that’s the process you are contributing to. You’ve done this several times.

(*Straight, white and male)

I’m not questioning their right to have a say. I’m pointing out that as privileged people, they are less experienced in this matters and in order to reach a correct conclusion, may take this into account. Have you noticed more than one straight white male commenting, agreeing with us on this? If you have, you need to drop this front of ignorance.

A straight white male who *refuses to own their privilege* should not comment on issues of transgenderism, no, just as I should not comment on racial issues if I do not consider my own racial privilege as a white person. It’s about educating yourself and opening yourself up to the experiences of others.

Also, you have absolutely no problem with people telling Transgendered people they have no right to be offended, that it’s just “PC crap”. This is why I’m angry in the first person. Why do you omit this completely and expect me to take you seriously?

Putting “quotation marks” around something doesn’t mean I said it

You are absolutely questioning the right of people who are different to you to have a say. You’ve attacked virtually everyone here who you assume is 1) White 2) Male 3) Straight 4) Disagreeing with you. Even in the post Im replying to you say that a straight white male “should not comment on issues of transgenderism”. That’s why people are likening you to a fascist.

You don’t get to decide who is too ‘privileged’ to have an opinion. You are not special. You do not derive special rights by being a member of an ascriptive group. You get your rights as an individual. You have no knowledge of the individual experiences of the people you are demanding to shut up. Stop with the generalisations.

I’m sorry, but you’re being a massive idiot. Of course someone who is transgendered and has experienced discrimination on those grounds, and knows a wide array of people in the same situation, will be more experienced, and more qualified to speak on such issues than someone who is not.

You have no problem with the attempts of people here to silence the transgender voice. It’s only when a group you’re a part of is spoken out against(and even then, not really) that you care. I find this very telling.

People who have no clue what they’re talking about shouldn’t comment on an issue like this. That’s not a “fascist” position, it’s an intellectual one.

Whereas you have no problem with people saying trans people don’t have a right to speak out or be offended at such things – that they’re just moaners, that their issue is a bunch of “PC nonsense”. This doesn’t bother you at all, because your attempt at liberalism is nothing more than shallow rubbish.

The people moaning about the PC Brigade are, by and large, not oppressed individuals in the slightest. As opposed to trans people who are, and can therefore comment on the issue. It is the voice of the transgender community that should be listened to here, but overwhelmingly, people are demanding that their ignorant, uninformed viewpoints are the only ones worth listening to.

And here we go with the “special rights” nonsense. The point of privilege is that you already have effective “special rights” over me whether you choose to acknowledge that fact or not.

“I’m sorry, but you’re being a massive idiot.”

More personal abuse?

“more qualified to speak”

No, everyone has an equal right to speak and you can put as much credence in their words as you choose. You have no problem lecturing straight white men about their position in life, you have to take it on the chin when they do the same. And I should remind you – you have no idea who you are speaking to.

“You have no problem with the attempts of people here to silence the transgender voice.”

Show me who did that

“People who have no clue what they’re talking about shouldn’t comment on an issue like this.”

Here we go again. You don’t know what people here know. You don’t know them and in any case have no right to silence them. Lots of people here speak every day on issues that do not have first hand experience of, like war and econommics. You still get to have an opinion

“That’s not a “fascist” position, it’s an intellectual one.”

No, it’s fascist

“Whereas you have no problem with people saying trans people don’t have a right to speak out”

Again, who said that? I DO have a problem with that

“or be offended at such things”

No one said you had no right to be offended. Someone said you had no right NOT to be offended, and I agree. Freedom of speech is more important than your feelings. We have laws to prevent incitement to hatred or violence and that’s enough

“your attempt at liberalism is nothing more than shallow rubbish.”

Where am I attempting liberalism? I prefer libertarianism

“The people moaning about the PC Brigade are, by and large, not oppressed individuals in the slightest.”

How do you know?

“As opposed to trans people who are”,

Now THAT’S taking ownership of your privilege!

“and can therefore comment on the issue.”

The veil slips

“It is the voice of the transgender community that should be listened to here,”

You mean you, right? And not the ones who were in the ad?

“The point of privilege is that you already have effective “special rights” over me whether you choose to acknowledge that fact or not.”

Wonderful argument. it doesn’t matter what evidence is adduced or what you say – I say something exists therefore it does. You reserve the right call people idiots and assholes, but what do you think the reaction would be if Revolting Peasant had responded to your name calling with body-part name calling of his own? That’s a double standard and that’s a special privliege which you are perpetuating

lol, you are boycotting a private company that have no qualms about taking money from people addicted to gambling, selective morality

What misinformation and hatefull ideas have PP’s put across, if you read the article it states “that several members of the transgender community in the UK took part” ( I don’t see any mention of TV’s ). In fact I thought it showed TG’s in a good light, you then go on to about it being against human rights, answer me what human rights have been violated?

Michael, again, could you imagine this being made about black or jewish people? It wouldn’t happen. It defies transgendered people’s right to basic human dignity. By encouraging trans spotting, it’s causing severe damage to trans people as a minority and not speaking up against it means that people would make the assumption that it’s acceptable to make a game out of their identity. This is an extremely sore, sensitive and sometimes traumatic subject for trans people, it’s not “Light fun” and just because you don’t understand it, just as you may not understand why rape jokes are inappropriate, doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.

Just because “members of the transgender community” took part doesn’t make it right. Did they even know what the final product would be like? Or they could have been, like most trans due to the prohibitive cost of transition, desperate for money. “Get a job” doesn’t work when even outside of a recession most people will be awkward about hiring you.

well leigh, with the mostly utilitarian policies of our current great leaders i somehow doubt your rantings are going to get noticed or acted upon, oh well, its such a shame seeing how everyone elses issues are being so well tended

Yeah, because that’s totally on the same level.

Typical overly privileged straight white male who considers himself “self made”, failing to realise all the legs up his “Normal” status has given him.

Trans people are not just “Moaning”. They are standing up for themselves as a highly marginalised and abused minority. The fact that you can sit on your armchair talking about transfolk “Moaning” about “PC crap” shows that you have a great amount of privilege over the trans people and feminists you hate so much since the most bother you have to deal with are diet coke ads and father’s rights.

You have no clue what it’s like to be trans and what it takes to achieve progress and recognition. You are commenting on something you are clueless about. If anything, the idea that we have to give people like you an equal platform is what’s “PC crap.”

It is not about political correctness. You are simply a bad human being.

goddam i would hate to meet her with a few whiskeys in her

I would hate to meet you full stop.

ooooookay, im sure that can be arranged (thank fuck)

This is what I mean. Every part of society will be ribbed about something at some stage and you just have to be able to laugh it off as long as its not over the top . I’d hate to see you at a stand up comedian show.
Was there not transsexuals working with them that didn’t have any problems with it? And I don’t think there is anything really that bad in it.

Leigh
I think hating people because they are part of a group is wrong EVEN IF IT IS SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO HATE CERTAIN GROUPS

You really need to take a look at yourself and the hypocrisy of your opinions

Sean Davids, you’re talking shit. An advert like this about black people, for example, would not make it to the airwaves. It’s because transgendered people are *abnormally* heavily targeted by the media and society that it managed to make it through. Technically, this advert is against broadcasting standards.

We don’t know the story of the transgendered people in this advert. They may not have known what they were doing, could have been actors paid to crossdress, or could have been desperate for funny as many trans people are. The trans community as a whole is clearly taking serious issue with it, that much should be obvious. So stop trying to make excuses. Regardless of who does or doesn’t find it offensive – encouraging transspotting is wrong, harmful, and can result in violence. We know this from experience.

Sean Walsh, what group am I hating? The only group of people I am hating are people who are telling transgendered people how to think and feel when they are under attack, especially those who have no experience dealing with discrimination.

You seem to be a nasty person going on your comments on this and another article. Grow up and relax yourself a bit.

Sean Davids, yet you take no offense to the very nasty remarks Revolting Peasant has made.

If you had to put up with this nonsense nearly every day of your life, you’d be angry too. Also, derailment tactic. How about you actually deal with my points instead of relying on intellectually lazy get out of jail free crowds? The fact that I’m angry with horrible human beings doesn’t mean I’m a nasty person, and definitely doesn’t mean I’m wrong.

http://derailingfordummies.com/#angry

Also, Sean, your comment was incredibly nasty. It was disrespectful not just towards feminists, but any group of people who’ve ever had to stand up for their rights. There is nothing more nasty than dismissing the real issues of a group, how they are portrayed in the media and how it affects them as “PC crap”.

There is little more abusive than saying it is merely because they “Want” to be offending. This shows to me you are deeply sheltered and have never had to deal with anything affecting your rights or social standing.

This explains the problem with your viewpoint very well -

http://derailingfordummies.com/#enjoyit

Do you seriously think that completely trivialising the issues of a minority who are extremely susceptible to murder, abuse and suicide would get a positive response? Are you a troll?

Are you ok? You’re just making stuff up now and is that book from your private collection of similar titles? Do you have irony for dummies? Because you talk of intellectually get out of jail free cards in one sentence and call me a troll in another.

Thanks for not actually replying to anything I said. I suppose that comes with the territory of being privileged, you don’t have to explain your attacks on people.

haahhahaha i like :)

So if they create a racist add to cause offense, that’s okay too?

good man joxer…back in with the sectarian slant. and fyi the clubs name is Rangers

Joxer, you’re telling people to get real when you’re about as far from the reality of what it’s like to live as a transgendered person in the first place, and what things can and can’t affect your status in the real world.

Why comment when you haven’t seen it, typical judge everything by others opinion, if you going to comment watch it first

Yeah watch it first yah muck savage!!

Did my impersonation of you hit a little too close to home, joxer?

Leigh do you think you could string a sentence together without swearing, or does it add to the drama?
I just watched the ad for the first time and laughed my head off – especially the comment about the dog. Excellent, just my kind of humour.

No Leigh, no-one likened trans people to Nazis, they said you as an individual were displaying fascist tendencies. Do you understand the difference? That you are being treated as an individual instead of as a member fo a group?

By the way, society is far more tolerant of violence against white straight men than any other group.

Did you read any of the comments about the “PC Brigade” or did they go off the radar?

Also, you’re talking unbelievable shit. The rate of violence and abuse against trans people is higher than the average.
You are not oppressed as a straight white male.

Here are list of privileges, some trivial, some serious, you have over trans people, for whatever reason:

http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Cisgender_privilege

The murder rate for transgendered people is higher than for straight white males. It’s a fact. In fact, some studies have found it to be 3 times the next highest group, african american males.

http://www.straight.com/article-395705/vancouver/600-reasons-why-canada-needs-pass-transgender-rights-laws

^ There are numerous articles like this if you google around.

How can you say society is less tolerant of violence and abuse towards transgendered people when we have here a mainstream television advert encouraging a practice which often results in just that?

You claim I am being treated as an individual but not a single transgendered person, and I know a lot, found this advert amusing, or considers people like you anything but assholes. You are dealing with trans people as a whole – I can guarantee you this much. You are free to check out the various irish LGBT sites, or what organisations like TENI have to say on this. You are attacking transsexuals. No excuses.

No Leigh, u are changing history – you said that there were comments saying that trans people were fascist

” the laughable ones saying trans people like myself are the REAL NAZIS”

Where?

I can say society is tolerant of violence against men because it is. It’s easy to prove. Look at the ad I already linked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3WwcwvsG5I

Here’s another focussing on wider examples. It even has a montage! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkl_oLSKQc

It includes the Sharon Osborne incident mentioned elsewhere. Can you find me a mainstream TV show laughing at the torture of trans people?

(I’ll save you some time; No)

That’s nice. The statistics I posted clearly show that transgendered people are at a greater threat of violence. You’re retorting this by posting to me some batshit “anti-feminist” youtube videos rather than any kind of real article or study.

Leigh I gave you plenty of evidence that men are more likely to be subject to physcial attacks than women. Name calling isn’t an argument. You still havent responded to any of the points I raised further up

You’re not even good at sarcasm so stop trying

Have you stopped peddling this fantasy that someone said trans people were fascist? Good, we’re making progress

You did not give me any evidence that transgendered women are less likely to meet with violence than the average man, and such an idea is insane. Also, violence obviously isn’t the be all and end all – more men are perpetrators of violence if we get down to it too. Straight white men are still the dominant class here, which is why it’s all the more grating. Not that there’s anything wrong with being straight, white or male, obviously, but there is something wrong with failing to realise the difference between your life and that of others.

It’s not a fantasy. There are plenty of comments about the “PC Brigade”. The original connotation of “Political Correctness” was in Mao-era China which was literal fascism. Given just about every trans person I know is siding with me on this – how is it not painting transgendered people as fascists?

Not to mention that was *definitely* done with Feminists, which is a typical ignorant mistake to make.

Take a look at comments like this -

“calm down colm, where did i ridicule anyone? this is being blown out of proportion, your own input being a case in point, comparing nazi germany and a bookies ad and then, because u pc fools are the most bigoted, describing those that dont share your sterile viewpoint as having base neanderethal instincts (you are also extremely un-educated about neanderthals by the way, they were people too)”

“You did not give me any evidence that transgendered women are less likely to meet with violence than the average man”

Ther you go again, changing what was said after the fact. I said men are more likely to be murdered than women in reponse to something you said above. I never mentioned transgendered women. But now that you bring it up, how many transgendered women HAVE been murdered in Ireland this year? And does the add incite violence?

, “and such an idea is insane.”

And factual

“Also, violence obviously isn’t the be all and end all”

Speaking from the privileged positin of not having been subjected to it much? In any case, it was the attitude to violence i raised. Society laughs at men who are victims. It does not do this to women or trans women (are they not just women? Isnt that the point?)

“more men are perpetrators of violence if we get down to it too.”

Certainly more men are jailed for it – that doesnt necessarily mean they are doing it. I guess your privilege as a woman blinds you to how the justice system works against men….and don’t you dare have an opinion otherwise (to use your own logic). In any case, are we blaming groups instead of individuals again here? I think we are! You’re implying men deserve to be victims of violence if other men carry it out? Nice.

“There are plenty of comments about the “PC Brigade”……are fascist”

Yes there are and NONE saying that trans people are fascists. The terms are not interchangable no matter how hard you pretend otherwise, so your original point – saying trans people like myself are the REAL NAZIS – is false and either a lie or evidence of paranoia

You pasted a comment that wasn’t mine but in any case whoever it was seems to be saying that comparing this ad to the holocaust is inappropriate and I agree.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/CPS_hate_crime_report_2009.pdf

Found this, not Ireland but the UK(which is where this advert is actually being aired anyway), records hate crimes against trans people, pretty high for such a small minority.

Right, well you didnt address a single one of my points there

I broke down all of your points, and dealth with them one by one. It’s not my fault if you don’t accept my response.

And here’s more murder statistics for you, not that you give a shit about trans people being murdered and beaten, in fact you probably find it funny just like this advert that incites it –

http://www.liminalis.de/2009_03/TMM/tmm-englisch/Liminalis-2009-TMM-report2008-2009-en.pdf

lool, no leigh you didnt address a single one of his points as usual

“I have never once said somebody does not have a right to an opinion here.”

Are you not the same person who said….

“A straight white male who *refuses to own their privilege* should not comment ”

and….

“People who have no clue what they’re talking about shouldn’t comment”

and…..

“As opposed to trans people who are, and can therefore comment on the issue”

I dare any of the idiots calling me a “Fascist” to actually reply to this post, and deal with the points I’m raising, not falling back on Ad Hominems. I don’t see it happening. Basically, it’s only basic manners to refrain from commenting on that which you do not understand.

“The problem with “spot the trans lady” though is that, for one person in the game, it’s really not that fun. Ask any trans woman. Most of us, at some stage, have faced the humiliation of strangers playing it on us, (I use “on” as it’s something that’s done to you, not with you, and rarely with permission). You know it’s coming, as you walk down the street, like any other member of the public, on your way to buy milk. You see the curious look in a stranger’s eye, the excitement as they wonder if it could truly be – if they could really have found someone as laughable and as exotic as you. You note their lack of subtlety as they nudge the person next to them. They walk by. Seconds pass. And, no matter how you try to prepare for the certainty of what comes next, the phrase “Is that a tranny?” stabs like a dagger every time.

It was fear of those four words which kept me in the house for the best part of three years as a student. During this period, I spent huge amounts of money on taxis and I never walked anywhere if it could be avoided. 24 hour supermarkets allowed me to do my shopping at 3am. What a laugh life was.”

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/20/comment-paddy-power-thinks-its-fun-to-play-spot-the-trans-lady-want-to-bet/

This is a fact of life for every trans person. To deny it isn’t just “Expressing an opinion”, it’s denying the reality of what transgenderism is.

no one called you a facist leigh but i am tending towards with every extra post you make