“Hatches, matches and dispatches”, love it!

And how people practice their faith, good bad or indifferent is your business how exactly?

They make up 84% of the people around us apparently, which makes religious influence on our culture and political stage sizeable. Thats why.

and you are commenting here Andrew Eager why exactly? i think we -u included- are because its a comment section, we all have opinions if you dont like opinions i suggest you stay off comment section, ok?

Happened with me, I had to change the bloody thing…

I wonder what the difference would have been, Im thinking it would have been much different.

I wonder how many would have ticked that box if it were there this time around? Doubt the number of Catholics would be so high…. there’s a lot who’d tick it as protest of the current problems in the church but still count themselves as Catholic/ religious….

I’d be more inclined to say that the ‘believers’ are in the closet (in the dark) and are the ones needing to come out in a sense.

It will as people figure out the story

couldn’t agree more. if you look at our census the lowest ratio of “no religion” is in the 10-14 age bracket.

I agree. There is no such thing as a Catholic child. There’s also no such thing as an atheist child. Only a child raised by Catholic parents, or atheist parents, or parents of any faith.

But what else do you expect in a country where First Communion and Confirmation are basically part of the curricula in the vast majority of primary schools? :/

I’ll tell you what I expect megu, people to have a mind of their own and not get their babies baptized because that’s what you “should do”. There is NO EXCUSE for getting baptized – if they want to believe fairy tales when they grow u and to get baptized, there will be many a church happy to oblige.

Edit – Should read “NO EXCUSE for getting your babies baptized”

You keep telling yourself that.

@Diego Attley

Perhaps you might explain then in how a country where 84% identify as catholic (at least on paper) 73% support marriage equality, a majority favours providing for abortion in circumstances that go beyond even the X Case, and the idea that divorce or contraception should be outlawed is firmly in fringe territory and not even on the agenda of what passes for the religious right lobby in this country. On all these issues, public opinion is firmly at odds with catholic church doctrine.

Sorry that the facts don’t back up your glib remark.

I know the most religious of catholics who advocate condom use. This is Ireland not Iran. People aren’t forced to follow every single religious law.

Your reasoning is screwed . What your saying is that because we have increased condom use etc,people favouring abortion in rape cases etc that those people can not be catholics. That is a pathetic argument . So in your eyes an atheist not an atheist if they have a buddha statue in their house or refuse to walk under a ladder ????

I am not Catholic btw.

Perhaps you might explain where these figures come from?….. A Journal poll?…..Red C? I could just as easily spout a figure of 95% of the population have never taken part in either and that the majority of participants are left wing liberals. These are facts……. as Peter Griffin would say.

It’s the Vatican who says it, from the recent visitation report:

“the Visitators also encountered a certain tendency…among priests, Religious and laity, to hold theological opinions at variance with the teachings of the Magisterium, this serious situation requires particular attention…dissent from the fundamental teachings of the Church is not the authentic path towards renewal ”

So basically, if you want to call yourself Catholic, get in line there. But of course belief in God has nothing whatsoever to do with the laws of one church or another. People who disregard the rules of the Catholic Church can of course have very strong belief in Christianity. And they can call themselves whatever they like, it’s not against any law.

Of course while they huff and puff about it, the Catholic Church do, and will continue to, tolerate dissent. They have no choice – if they really followed through on the ‘all or nothing’ schtick, and chucked out people who don’t believe in a load of what they teach, the numbers left would be very sad indeed.

@John Murphy

That’s not what I’m saying at all, the very opposite in fact. Please reread the thread and what I was responding to. I made the point that many catholics do not believe it appropriate for their church or any otherto meddle in the affairs of the state and that quite a number also reject the more fundamentalist teachings of the church – Mary McAleese and Gina Menzies would be good examples of such people.

The polls were commissioned by Red C – a professional polling company which weighs its sample to reflect the demographic make-up of society. Both polls taken in the past 12 months revealed that 73% support marriage equality, following a consistent trend of increasing support for equality over many years. Polls showing more liberal attitudes to abortion are also on the public record.

You are clearly in denial about how attitudes have become more progressive in Ireland and your attempt to dismiss polls bearing out these trends on the basis that they don’t tally with your beliefs or that they don’t reach 96% of the population is quite silly. Learn how opinion polls work before making such ill-informed comments again.

I actually do know a bit about them because it forms a part of my thesis but as these are done by telephone I would tend to think that most of the people that wouldn’t hang up on them would be people that want a positive result. I would like to see a referendum on these issues and as I’ve stated here before I am in favour of equal rights for gays but I have a strong suspicion that if it were to go to the vote tomorrow it would be defeated.

Exactly we are are country of cultural catholic(minus me of course) but if you actually go to people who abstain from premarital sex, no kids outside marriage, those who don’t believe in divorce and would not travel to England for a termination, it would be a lot less of a number than putting all the al la cart Catholics together

“even a lapsed catholic who rarely darkens the door will be very slow to have their children brought up not having a first communion and confirmation”

Are you sure that’s to do with their faith or just to keep their parents/grandparents happy? Or to do with the fact that most kids are in a Catholic school and as far as the school are concerned they have no business there unless they’re getting confirmed, much like how people baptise their kids to get them school places.

Atheists are “freaking” because a lot of people (and I’ve heard this first-hand) have put down Catholic even though they have no Catholic beliefs whatsoever. And because of parents counting their kids as Catholic. Yes I agree with you that people old enough shouldn’t let mammy fill in their census forms but if the Census highlights are anything to go by we have an incredibly devout Catholics around the 10-14 year bracket, page 43: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011pdr/Census%202011%20Highlights%20Part%201.pdf

apologies it wasnt you who gave out about people letting their parents fill in their census forms

The education issue doesn’t work .as a child of one Protestant parent is certain of a place in a C of I school.
It often is the granny issue, but let’s not forget there is also a Protestant granny on the other side. Yet most of my cousins brought their children up catholic, some felt it was easier as they personally had negative experiences growing up as a non catholic in Ireland. Others simply felt their catholic wife/husband was more insistent (even though not active church members) and freaked at the idea of their child not having a first communion.

I am lapsed Catholic – if I ever really was one, I was babtised, educated in Catholic schools etc, like most Irish people, but never made a conscious decision to be one. I didn’t baptise my son. Some older family members were not thrilled, but it’s not really their business.

I wondered would he be upset when it came to the communion/confirmation years, when others his age were having parties and getting showered with cash. He didn’t care – it just seemed to him like some arcane ritual that had no relevance to him or his life. Though he did enjoy some of the parties :).

@ John
Regarding education, maybe not in your case, but in general that is the recurring complaint, that people have to get their children baptised to get into school, and once they’re there have to get communion and confirmation. Which you show yourself in your anecdote about your cousins parents who have had negative experiences growing up non-Catholic are strong evidence to support that theory.

@Katherine
More power to you for making up your own mind, regarding your children and your religion, good to see a freethinker!

I actually have respect for people who have conviction in their beliefs, but not for al la carts you either follow the rules or you don’t, and to be honest I think when they call themselves Catholics they are somehow think it’s vital to be Irish and catholic

Sorry your wrong . When I spoke about negative experiences growing up I was speaking about sectarianism in the republic not schools.

All of my non catholic cousins went to
C of I primary schools and most went to c of I secondary schools.

The criteria for entering a C of I school is generally easy . Preference is given to minority faiths over Catholics. Unless the catholic has one Protestant parent . So a Muslims kids is given preference above those who have two catholic parents. Well that’s how it traditionally was.

The school issue was only in one area of Dublin. Many of my friends are not Catholics and had no issue getting their children into local catholic schools. The media is Dublin centric so the attitude is it must be a nationwide issue. But I don’t think it really is. Maybe I am
Incorrect.

Seems to be more difficult to get a pre school place rather than primary school place.

Sorry but I’m not, you talked about negative experiences growing up, thats what I was referring to. Its easier to be Catholic, you fit in, and your sectarianism comment proves that even more conclusively.

here’s the enrolment policy for a school in Rathfarnham Dublin 14 and another for Duleek Co. Meath, both prioritise Catholic children. No school has the right to refuse a child on grounds of religion but they can push them to the bottom of the waiting list all they want:

http://www.loretograngeroad.ie/enrolement.html

http://duleekgns.scoilnet.ie/blog/?page_id=24

Well see times have changed despite the abuse we got we are proud to be Irish Prods.
I like being a minority actually. There will always be abuse in every country.

It was lapsed Catholics I found to be the most sectarian growing up rather than the religious kids in town who went to mass with their folks.

Most forms of buddhism have little to say about the existence or otherwise of god, and have a worldview that is largely based on causal relationships between things. Additionally, buddhist religions actively encourage questioning and thinking for yourself, in sharp contrast to certain other religions. There is even a form of buddhism called secular buddhism which rejects the notion of literal rebirth and the possibility of escaping it into some sort of eternal bliss, if you really want a label to apply to people. The point is it is not inconsistent to identify as an atheist and also be interested in buddhist ideas, and to have a buddha in your house to remind you of them.

(that’s not to say the increase in percentage isn’t noteworthy, of course…)

If non catholic religions can come together and build their own schools. Why can’t non religious communities . It’s not that hard at all, an application is made to the Dept of Education to take over the running of a school or to form a new school.
Educate together have done it nationwide.
Humanists and Atheists seem to whine about the lack of variety in schools yet refuse to get off their arm chair.
If the C of I with 100,000 less people than non religions can run their schools why can’t humanists and atheists put into action a plan to form a school where there is a demand for secular education ???

Just a point that’s crossed my mind a few times.

Because atheism isn’t an organisation in the same way religious movements are, rather they are a collection of individuals, meaning that they haven’t the same collective direction and power that say the catholic church or CoI might have

@ John

What are you waffling about? The majority of atheists and humanists have no problem sending their children to Educate Together schools where people of various faiths and no faith are respected as equals. We have nothing to fear from teaching children about the various religions. What exactly do you think secular education is? Secular does not mean atheist.

Atheists and humanist might “seem to whine” because currently there is a disproportionate number of primary schools under Catholic patronage. Here’s a poll from the most unbiased group possible (the Iona Institute) showing that while 49% of adults with dependent children would choose a Catholic school, 39% would prefer a state run school where all religions are taught. 93% of schools are currently under Catholic patronage.
http://www.ionainstitute.ie/assets/files/Iona_Institute_Schools_poll.pdf

As it would be a financial impossibilty and highly impractical to build schools to accommodate these parents, a fair solution would be to convert some of the existing state funded religious schools to secular schools. Or at the very least prevent religious schools from freely discriminating on religious grounds.

@ Adam Long.

Stop trying to dress something up as something it isn’t.

The cold hard fact remains that we live in a 84% Catholic country. And the relatively tiny numbers of non-religious increasing by a ‘huge’ percentage is only indicative of their few numbers. Going from 1 to 2 afterall, represents an increase of 100%.

The country is Catholic, culturally if not religiously. And speaking as an agnostic, it remains quite an agreeable place to live in. So stop trying to get the tiny tip end of the tail to wag the dog. That path, to madness leads.

@Andrew Eager

You seem to want to ignore the fact that where all the major social/moral issues are concerned, the majority of people in this society are (thankfully) at odds with church doctrine, and attitudes are becoming more progressive all the time. Certainly, the vast majority of Irish people (even most catholics) reject the misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the institutional church. And that is even before you consider the huge loss of credibility the church has suffered due to the cover up of sexual abuse that has occurred in its ranks. That’s the central point I am making and it’s a valid one.

And I certainly wouldn’t describe the second largest grouping in the country as “tiny numbers”.

But that’s it they don’t have any belief ;)

@Kevin

One of the great things about evidence is that it we can scrutinise it. Hardly a journal or scientific paper comes through without people questioning the methods of the tests that took place, or the possible logical fallacies that support the conclusions of said journal or paper. you cant give out to people for not blindly accepting something just because its written down, the irony is too much for one!

And what on earth is this “Leaving Religion” campaign?

You know as well as everybody else that 84% of the country is not Catholic. i’m not say its 10% or 20%, it might be as high as 60%, but I refuse to believe that 84% of the population can even tell the difference between Catholic and Protestant never mind make a conscious decision as to which one they are.

I am very upbeat with the results and I find an increase of 45% of registered non religious people a very positive. If this trend continues (and I am very optimistic that it will) Churches and faith based superstition will become less and less relevant in our society. The movement towards a secular republic cannot be stopped. The classic snowball effect.

Brendan, scrutinising the evidence or the methodology/validity of the census is fine. I don’t have an issue with that. I happen to agree that since their is such public interest in the question that their questioning should drill deeper but I suppose there are only so many questions they can fit on there. What I have an issue with is the commentors who are drawing their own conclusions purely based on the people they have contact with and tellng the rest of us that those experiences are the same for the majority of the country.

I’m sure that 84% aren’t Catholic but I am also sure that the number of people who list themselves as Catholic but are actually closet atheists is also low. And that is the argument that several posters are trying to make.

The “Leaving Religion” campaign is a support network for people who want to leave their current religion and is promoted Atheist Ireland.

@ Joe, I fear your optimism is misplaced as despite your wishes religion will exist on a large scale for a long time. You also seem to be conflating atheism with secularism when they can and do exist independently. Atheism is the rejection of a beleif in a deity, secularism is the belief in the separation of church and state. Therefore, its quite possible to be both Catholic and secular

Kevin, a lot of people are surmising yes but collectively if you read the comments there is a trend of “mammy filling in the census form”, people cant prove that but when they all comment here it provides the evidence they cant give alone. Another argument is that people perceive Catholicism as a cultural thing. And the evidence is all around us, I guarantee you if the Brits were Catholic we wouldn’t be so keen on it!

And there are lots of links and statistics that people have included in their comments. In fairness considering this is the internet, people’s opinions on this forum have a lot of evidence an reasoning behind them!

So what you are saying Brendan is that the readers of this particular article, on this particular website , who were interested enough to post on it are a perfect representative sample of the views of the Irish population? Does that sound right to you?

A perfect sample? No,nor do I think they ever claimed to be. Thats why I said evidence, not proof.

So what your saying that unless someone is in church in Sunday and saying the rosary gach oiche they have no right calling themselves catholic.

That is a real “Catholic” mentality which has rubbed off on you. Plenty of good Catholics don’t go to church but the beliefs and ethos is still within them. It seems to me that ex Catholics are now like ex smokers .

So if someone doesn’t go to church, if they decide themselves which parts of the church they agree with and which they won’t live by, does that make them a catholic? or does that make them some individual variation of a Christian?

I mean I’ve heard of “Catholics” that don’t believe in the assumption, that Mary was a virgin her whole life and/or transubstantiation. These are supposed to be pillars of the catholic doctrine and yet people pick and choose at their leisure which parts they believe and which they don’t, on what basis can they make those decisions? If being a catholic isn’t believing in what distinguishes it from other Christian denominations, then what is it? Is it just a cultural label or personal identification with a particular? I think a lot of people treat it as something similar to nationality, they don’t particularly give it a lot of thought but for one reason or other they identify themselves as part of that group.

I like people who have conviction

I agree with the whole ya must be Catholic to be Irish. That view is quite a strong cultural trend that runs deep here even among so called liberals who have often reminded me my ancestors are not Irish.or that I am some how seen outside the circle of irishness.

What’s a “good catholic”? Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, all the same at core, deluded!

My English teacher asked my class – of 25 girls educated in Catholic schools for the best part of the last 11 years – why we give up things for Lent. Like the religious reasoning behind it. No one could give the correct answer. No one knew why Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and nights either. That’s pretty basic stuff. It worries me just a little that people call themselves Catholic but don’t understand their religion. I have no problem with people being religious but they should actually understand at least the basic stuff!

@Megu

Very good point. Although it worries me even more that not a single Catholic seems to know that the Bible warns against organisations that order their members to fast. Thats lack of knowledge about your faith.

John, I was just pointing out that most ‘catholics’ I know are in fact ‘a la carte catholics’ they pick and choose their religious dogma menu to suit themselves, which as a non catholic I really don’t give a crap about anyway, but… when it comes to filling a census form it’s usually the person filling it in who decides what religion is ticked off, the reality is that there are lot more non practising catholics then practising ones although you wouldn’t know that from the census. I’m sure there are plenty of ‘catholics’ who don’t darken the door of a church but who still tick the box. I have a theory that Ireland is in fact a protestant country, it just hasn’t figured it out yet!

Protestant ??? Lol. No way
Very often Protestant is portrayed in this country as the Christianity lite version. More liberal etc
While many Protestants in Ireland are more tolerant many take their faith quiet seriously and a good few of us get fed up as being some sort of tool too often used by non Protestant liberals to attack the Catholic church. Do you get what I mean.

Like I don’t know how many times I’ve been told oh ye support divorce or your allowed have abortions. That is not technically right or wrong but it often annoys me , I hear friends say oh I never go to Mass shur I am nearly Protestant. Like what exactly does that mean. ??? Protestants are some sort of lazy half arsed religion lol.

There is still a huge catholic culture in Ireland even among Irish Protestants a lot of catholic cultural habits have rubbed off. Even secular people in Ireland often have quiet a bit of catholic cultural habits and are never too happy to have that pointed out to them.

Where do you get the figure 10 per cent ??? If 250,000 people identify as no religion is that not more like 5 per cent.

No John The preamble to the Constitution begins :
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
This excludes all non Christians:
Muslim: 49,200
Other: 81,000
No religion: 269,000
Not stated: 72,900

As far as I am aware we have had Anglican and Jewish judges .

we have indeed had a Jewish Judge, Henry Barron, Supreme Court, he was my great-uncle :D

Wow Brendan and when sworn in what did he use a Torah ??? That’s fantastic and Id say if a Muslim was appointed a judge they would be able to use a koran.

What does an atheist use I don’t know their mother’s birth cert ???

John since when are Anglicans non christian ?

That is true. But they were non catholic and traditionally barred from senior civil service positions

But as said above their has been Jewish judges so your original point is incorrect mate.

I dont know, but they do keep Torah and Qu’ran in the courts for that purpose.

Maybe Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion”? :P

John, an Athiest, or really anyone who prefers not to take a religious oath, can do so in Irish courts – you just make an affirmation. I did this when I served on a Jury.

Basically the wording is the same, you don’t hold/touch any book, you just say before the court: “I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be …etc”

John point taken with regards to people of other religious faiths outside of Christianity, but fact remains that those that do not believe in a higher power are excluded from these positions and that is blatant discrimination.

I don’t believe they are. Sorry but according to one poster who did jury service they are sworn in as normal . Would be no different for a judge and I have heard that would be the same for swearing in of the Gardai.
Maybe I am incorrect but I think your wrong to say atheists would be discriminated from becoming a judge in Ireland.

Kathrine the point we were discussing was about the discrimination against people of different beliefs or non beliefs when appointing Judges of even our President. John pointed out that it is possible for a non christian to hold these positions, I drew attention to the fact that a person of non belief cannot hold these positions….

John the humanist association of Ireland have a very good document on equality for the non religious, its worth a read. They point out the religious oaths that are required for office of the president, Council of state and every person that is appointed as a judge.

Well that’s a bloody outrage. It should not be allowed Joe.

John a lot of this stuff is political laziness rather than outright bigotry. Secularism would put a stop to all this. The complete separation of church and state. Let the churches do their thing and the government do its thing, no favoritism for religious or non religious.

“What does an atheist use I don’t know their mother’s birth cert ???” Better that than a ridiculous book of fairytales.

Ed respect is a too way street. Being scornful of those of faith is no different from how the catholic churches attitude was years ago to non catholics. It’s about building a pluralistic society not one where either secularists or faith communities dominate . I don’t like arrogant religious people but I equally find arrogant secular non religious people also equally as rude and dominating .

Still the largest minority by a country mile.

That is to presume there is any sense in treating that ‘non-religious’ group as one homogeneous group, Sean O’Ciarain. I see no sense it myself. I’m an agnostic perfectly happy to live in a country that reflects the not inconsiderable fact that 84% of the population identifies itself as Catholic. Being an agnostic in this country is not onerous in the least, despite what some militant secularist types would try to have us believe. You’d swear this country was run like a theocracy the way Atheists Ireland bang on.

Sad comment. Do you think a handful of keyboard warriors on the journal represent Athiest/realists as a whole?

I actually do from the few that I know.

One ask one receive young padwon….our religion is Jedi!

People who read Horiscopes? Wear those magnetic braclets? Read “The Secret”?
Watch Twilight? And are “Spiritual”?

Can’t be so different to believe someone lives in the sky or rising from the dead 3 days later

My cousins are never in a church, bar weddings funerals or something like that, it’s just for the day that is in it, it reaffirms they’re Irishness. Me went completely the other way and I’m letting my kids choose when they’re old enough

I think that’s the case for a majority of catholics in Ireland. As recently as the early 90s, the vast majority were practicing but now only a minority (and a shrinking one at that) attend weekly mass. And again, despite the high number of people who still identify as catholic, the vast majority reject the reactionary positions of the church on all the hot button social/moral issues – contraception, divorce, equality for gay people and so on.

By the way, I admire you for letting your children make up their own minds.

Make up all the excuses you want, but 84% is the the number of people who say they’re Catholics.
People aren’t stupid.
If they didn’t think themselves Catholic, they wouldn’t mark “Catholic”.

Funny how atheists always bang on about “evidence” and here’s some statistical evidence and all most people here want to do is to make up excuses to deny the fact that 84% of people define themselves as Catholic.

I agree. I used to answer catholic based on the fa t I was baptised. but now I say agnostic

It’s like what that cardinal said about Irish people being theologically illiterate, there’s a massive difference between a cultural catholic and a practicing catholic

SaintRuth if the evidence is so strong and consistent then why on earth is there less than 20% mass attendance around the country? Take a look at the comments here do they make up 84% pro Catholic? Science is about looking at all the evidence not selectively choosing. If it was as you said that 84% of the country were assertively proclaiming their religion as Catholic you would not see these trends. The apathy I mentioned is consistent with the Irish psyche. We dont really protest. If they were asked if they attend church or follow the church leaders on spiritual matters the result would be entirely different but still would not be without a pro religious bias as parents often fill them out.

Thanks Francis

I’ve double-checked this with the CSO John, and the figure they have is definitely 129,000. You can see it here on page 42 of the full release of the census info (warning: it’s a pdf).

I was surprised to see the large decline in the Methodist church too. Interesting one, especially coupled with the increase in Church of Ireland.

Jesus do ppl dislike for the sake of disliking ????

Christine the data is actually unclear as on the website in one section it say 124,000 another it is saying 134,000 and your saying 129,000 which is inbetween so we will run with your lol.

I was reading section CDD 36 and 37 on the CSO website and got the 134,000 figure.
Oh well not to worry . Thank you very much.