christenings (my own kids) and funerals if i knew the person very well ,dont do weddings .

I believe in god but not his salesmen so no I don’t go to mass.

Wouldn’t go to anything organized by pedophiles.

Another story set up by journal waiting for the usual trolls to knock the church. Pathetic little people.

I would rather be pathetic than a pedophile.

The church are well able to destroy themselves it seems, and how do you know how tall I am?

Re some comments As only 2%(a societal average) of Catholics can be counted as guilty of the charges being thrown by some commentators at Catholics in general, these commentators can be safely ignored deemed irrelevant regarding this serious topic. They have done the cause of the abused a damaging disservice and hijacked their cause.

Tom, I don’t think anyone is tarring all catholics with the same brush. I reckon the anger is focused at the clergy (who in the past have had a high percentage of both perpetrators and and twice as many enablers)
That is also a ridiculous figure , where are you pulling 2% of all catholics from? that’s millions of people you’re tarring there yourself..

Tom, only about 2% committed these crimes. The other 98% refuse to hold them to account.

@John Kissane – Just because people don’t share the same views about religion as you, it doesn’t automatically make them a Troll, or “Pathetic little people”. That’s a very narrow-minded and intolerant way to look at the world.

Bilbo It’s obvious you are little. Hobbits are even smaller than Dwarfs after all, approx 3.5 foot tall, if Memory serves.

In the world, there are people who believe in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Chinese folk religion, Buddhism, Shamanism, Animism, Sikhism, Judaism ,Spiritism, Baha’i Faith, Confucianism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Taoism, Wicca and Scientology. The only difference between atheists and religious people, is that religious people think 19 of these are made-up nonsense, with gullible morons for followers, and athiests think that 20 are.

Just to correct – Shamanism doesn’t involve religious worship and is more of a life path, as is Witchcraft (not Wicca which was invented by Gerald Gardiner and is based upon Aliester Crowleys Satanism) – Shamanism and Witchcraft both include healing as part of their practice.
Buddhism is also a life path – in that it is the quest for enlightenment or “Buddhahood”, they don’t worship Buddha – they wish to attain it.

Here’s a site where good Catholics expose bad ones. http://www.bishopaccountability.org

I am just thinking do atheists believe in the paranormal life on other planets UFOs,karma etc I know this a bit off topic but I am curious.

Andy, speak for yourself. Not all atheists think religious people are gullible morons. Hope you don’t call yourself a sceptic.

No, fair point @mollydot. I was thinking more along the lines that many religious people are so dismissive, or sometimes hostile, towards people who believe in other religions. Many Christians would mock Scientology, for example. Islamists and Jews aren’t exactly the best of friends. That was where my “Gullible morons” comment was really aimed: referring to relations between different religions.
By contrast – why was the last time you saw an “atheist extremist” blow up a load of innocent people?

Born catholic? How so?

Mother and father were catholic so I was born a catholic, make sense numpty .???

Exactly dublindad.

Actually Jay is right – even the Catholic Church doesn’t believe you’re born Catholic. No magic water, no salvation. Unbaptised babies had to be buried in unconsecrated ground until a few years ago.

What about evening mass? ; )

My kids were all christened Catholic,we liked the room.

I think it done for out of tradition than anything else. I was what you called a ‘crib catholic’, but now don’t believe in any of it. In saying that I still would like to get married and have my kids christened but only out of tradition.

I was brought up catholic and my children were christened but I will never darken the doorway of a church that sends around a collection box during a funeral three times it was passed around because there was such a good attendance

We’re devout Atheists but all my kids were baptised. We needed the certs to get them into the local school. I’m not happy with the hypocrisy but my kids come first and it’s not my fault that the catholic church control so many schools.

All I can do is protect my kids from their brainwashing and childish beliefs (virgin birth, transubstantiation, papal infallibility, etc.)

You can still teach catholicism without attending mass, whether it’s regular or never. I never learned anything at mass, not even a prayer. The priest doesn’t take time to teach us anything except what he says in his sermon. I learned my prayers, etc at home & at school, not at mass. Plus it’s expensive, our priest asked for a minimum of a fiver in our envelopes. And sometimes there’s 3 envelopes for 1 mass, a fiver is hard to come by these days,

I christened my child a catholic (Im a also a catholic but only go on special occasions).

The school he goes to is a strong catholic school. Even our Canon was there welcoming all the new students. The first thing he learned was to bless himself and say prayers. Communion and Confirmation are organised through the school. I do not want my son to be left out during this part of school. He can choose himself whether he wants to be a practicing catholic or not. I will support him either way.

I do believe in a higher power but I go not believe you have you go to church to worship them.

I was raised a catholic and am raising my son one, I believe in god but don’t go to mass because i don’t believe half the restrictions the church and pope put on our faith !!

I’m agnostic – never go to church. Had daughter baptised at 4 to get her into local catholic school. Will have son baptised C of I for his school. Wish it wasn’t so but kids come first.

Christening, Communion and Confirmation are social event and for a significant majority of people they have no religious meaning.

I am an atheist, as are my children, I didn’t influence their choice in this, they went to Catholic schools as there were no others in the area and made up their own minds.
A relative of mine had a child last year and, as school places around here can be limited, he phoned the local school to ask if he need to put the childs name down now. When talking to the school secretary he also asked if, it being a catholic school, did they descriminate if the parents were atheists and the child too.
He was told that no, they would never descriminate on the grounds of religon (it would also be illegal), BUT, if places were limited (which they will be), then preference will be given to those children who were born in the parish (check) and baptised Catholic. Huh?
My relative then spent several minutes trying to point out that this was in effect descrimination in all but name, but it was no good. They insisted they have the right to limit the places to baptised Catholics kids. So my relative said, in his own words “he’d throw a priest €50 to baptise his child, if that’s what it takes, but it means nothing to him and they won’t get his child”.

Friends of mine are looking around for a school for their 4 year old for next September. They are non believers as am i and their daughter isnt baptised They have been asked to bring a baptism cert to register in most schools . One school said its Protestant first catholic second Muslim 3rd others 4 th then atheist. It is their taxes used to pay for these school they should have an equal right to send their child locally it’s not that they want a religious school it’s just most of them are. they are now think of baptising their daughter. Crazy I think

The people who have their children baptised and then announce themselves as atheists are either complete hypocrites or cowards, probably both. A cowardly parent doesn’t stand up for what they believe in and then try to justify this by saying its for the good of their young.

I had my son christened as it is a requirement of the only primary school were I live.

Yes of course… For the necessary Baptismal Cert to get your kids into many state schools!

My parents had me baptised, however I didn’t inflict the cult of evil on my kids so they were not baptised and will grow up believing in science as opposed to Catholic brain washing

I’m a childless atheist. We haven’t decided what to do if we have children. There’d be family reasons to baptise (we know who would perform it), as well as possibly school reasons.

Was that not the point though? To outline the dwindling numbers of church goers in the younger generation?

@Daniel Murray

The preamble to the poll does not mention any age group.

I’m in my 30′s and go to church regularly. I have faith so I practice it, my teenagers don’t so I don’t bring them with me. With regards to the schools, I have friends who sent their kids to the local schools without having them baptised. There are kids from all over the world, every religion practiced, attending the schools nowadays.

Is it still the case that you can vote several times on some of these polls if you disable cookies? Not very scientific.

By no stretch of imagination could one call polls on this site scientific. They may indicate general trends and generate some interesting comments but mostly have only entertainment value.

not so, john ! i am a very with it 66 year old and i think it is all a load of bol**! attending church is a way of controling
people, the do as i say ! or you will go to hell type of faith.
Faith in ones self is what is important.

John, bar funerals (special dispensation), I haven’t been in a Church for 40 years. Some of us did Atheism in the 70′s too. :))

I guess I better clarify. I agree with the sentiments of Patricia and William. I was a non-practising agnostic for many years. I was just questioning the validity and reliability of the poll done here.

And all the child rapist protectors are hypocrites too, especially Joe Ratzinger.

Brilliant

Evelyn you might like this site then it has some very enlightening facts about the church. http://www.bishopaccountability.org

I had a look at that site, Tony. There are lists of allegations of abuse along with cases where people were found guilty. An allegation isn’t a presumption of guilt. Do you not believe in innocent until proven guilty?

In this country it is the burden of the state to prove your guilty in other countries it is the burden of the individual to prove their innocence. What I believe is irrelevant. Just because someone has escaped due process does not mean they are innocent of a crime . Just because a child rapist hasn’t been caught and convicted doesn’t mean their not a child rapist. If someone is concerned about their innocence or believe they have been accused of a crime they didn’t commit they have a right to take a libel action against their accusers to clear their name. Knowing Americans and their penchant for litigation, one would find it rather amazing that this site would still exist if such accusations were ill founded.

I just don’t agree with that approach. I think it’s all too easy to take someone’s good name and even one false accusation could destroy lives. We can’t right one horrendous abuse by engaging in another one.

Gary – I accept a lot of what you say. Some priests have caused a lot of harm. But it simply is not correct to say that nothing happens to those priests. These days they are removed immediately if any accusation is made, and it is reported to the civil authorities. They can also be summarily removed from the priesthood. There were outrageous crimes in the past, and they were compounded by atrocious handling by both Church and State authorities. By and large they are now being handled appropriately when they arise.

@ Paddy Rodgers.
You sound so much like Blathin Sullivan in the way you attack people claiming they are bullies..
Take a look on this site Column: “If clerical abuse was a car crash we’d still be looking for the victims”,,

and check out the comments submitted by Blathin Sullivan and see what you think!

I disagree del mar see http://www.bishopaccountability.org which disproves your claims.

Sorry meant to say Almar

Proud of what exactly?

well James you’re not Australian as the education system is extremely biased towards fee paying schools. Here in Brisbane people baptise their kids just to get into these same schools

I’m English, though I tend not to use that as a starting point when I’m criticizing something in Ireland for obvious reasons (yes, our history and impact here is despicable, I’m only sorry I can’t change it). I’ve lived here more of my adult life than in the UK so I have an obvious vested interested and love most things about Ireland. This just seems bizarre, I’m shocked its the first I’ve heard of it. Interesting to hear you have it in Brisbane, too. I’m 100% behind people’s right to believe what they choose, but to require a child to be a nominal member of a faith to get access to any school sits very badly with me. At that age (I’d guess very young?) is anyone really a considered and informed believer in any religion? I don’t have a problem with baptism per say (I was baptised, and I’m not a believer now, but hey, that’s just me. No judgement either way), but I don’t see what it has or should have to do with getting a good education.

James
I found it to be common practice in London also. I can remember being advised to get on the waiting list for the local catholic school as soon as possible once we knew a child was expected.

Interesting. I can’t speak for London as I never lived there, but where I grew up (semi-rural Wiltshire for what its worth) faith was thankfully a non-issue in schooling, though we did get marched to the local church every so often (with an opt out with parental permission). I’m pretty sure I was never asked my religious beliefs. Obviously I’d take issue wherever this took place.

I think its changing. I think it depends on the area you live in too and the availability of schools. 15 yrs ago I had no choice but to christen my eldest, it was the only way her school would offer a place. That same school is now accepting anyone of all faiths and none. Its still a Catholic school but non Catholics can opt out of any religious instruction.

Good to hear, I think its necessary. At the end of the day the church might be respected more, too, for having less involvement I think. It’ll seem more respectful to the idea of freedom of belief not to have inteference in education at all, and that reflects well on the church as well as the schools IMO.

Ireland is a Catholic country has been for genera’tion after Genera’tion so we will not change now for people who have gone back to been Anti-theist to sute them self’s for what ever reson may be they want to stay in bed in the morning because they have been out all night drinking who can tell so it is easy to say i am a Anti-theist then to get up and go to mass; not all Priests are bad you will get bad people in all walks of life but the people who stay can get a better under standing of God i for one want to be a Catholic after all it is all about fait you have it or not so i might never get to heven but i will try my best to be a good Catholic if helping people is the right thing to do then do it and stop nocking my religion

There was no knocking (mocking? either way) there Seamus. I was just questioning the need for faith and education to be combined. I’m not really sure what your point is there.

Why would anyone with half a brain believe all priests are bad? The same applys to atheists, too, though, and our choice not to go to mass is in no way connected with waking up on a Sunday morning, I promise!

James, we had a situation in Ireland where, given the large Catholic population, the majority of schools were Catholic Given the change in society, there are many parents who don’t want their children to attend a Catholic or denominational school. There are Educate Together schools that cater for their choices for their children. Unfortunately, change is slow and it will take time for provision to be in line with demand. Our government were not on the ball in predicting and responding to the changes. My own view is that, considering there are large groups who favour different models, parental choice is the key factor. I think we’re mature enough and diverse enough to opt for something that veers away from the one-size-fits-all approach and that leaves everyone happy.

The school system was a shock for me too. In France all public schools are secular. now I was lucky enough to live in Dublin where there are several educate together schools, but even then the waiting list is long. To be honest I think I would rather home school my kids that send them to a religious school.

I have had some Christians tell me that Catholicism is not actually christianity.
The Pope is almost deified in Catholicism which draws worship from The Lord, as is Mary. Also – forgive me if memory has failed me, but Isaiah says god will not be found in any temple doesn’t it?

Personally I subscribe to neither – but I would wholeheartedly agree that Catholicism has little to do with the more well known teachings of Jesus and perhaps its clergy shares more in common with the Pharisees that Jesus hated so much..

I’d love to know more about the Christians who told you that Catholicism is not actually Christianity because it doesn’t sound like a very Christian comment. The Pope is in no way deified nor is Mary. Mary is honoured in Catholicism as the mother of Jesus. It would be a strange son who wouldn’t want his mother honoured. There is a misconception sometimes that Catholics adore Mary, but this isn’t the case.

Don’t you think it’s a pretty sweeping statement to suggest that Catholic clergy “shares more in common with the Pharisees that Jesus hated so much…” ? That comment tars all Catholic clergy with the same brush which I think is quite unfair.

They were King James Version Onlyists if that helps Maria, and very literal they were too.

As far as they were concerned no man should stand between you and The Lord (so the Pope is not given any credence at all) and god may not be found in temples (so churches and organisational structures were shunned) – I was furnished with the relevant scripture to back up their position, sadly I didn’t note it down – if I remember correctly the bit about god not being found in temples was from Isaiah.

As for the comparison to the Scribes and Pharisees – it was in terms of the “hypocrites and followers of the doctrines of men” from that speech in the temple. With Papal infallibility and the Vaticans new commandments this is self evident, this is not from the bible it’s from the Vatican – who are men, and certainly not magically connected to “god”. As is the hypocrisy of ignoring the teachings of Jesus (to give everything you have to the poor – not swan around in the finest garments or draped with gold while living in a mansion with myriad priceless artefacts while children are dying of starvation).

These “Christians” were predominantly American. I spoke with them on a forum where there was a specific bible discussion sub forum.. I found them to be highly intolerant bigoted people, preferred to quote reams of scripture at you than actually engage in a discussion. It was they who showed me that Jesus wasn’t all peace and love.. I had far more respect for Jesus before I came across that lot.

They sound pretty bigoted alright, Shanti Om. I hope they didn’t influence your view too much. ; ) I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what Catholics really believe. I don’t think Jesus had a problem with wealth, it was more with how we use our wealth. If all the riches and masterpieces of the world were sold and the money donated to the poor, it would be like a drop in the ocean. If each one of us who enjoys a fair few luxuries did our bit or donated our time and expertise, it would probably make a huge difference. It’s all about personal responsibility rather than pointing the finger at how others aren’t up to scratch. It’s easy to blame the Vatican for everything, but what have I done personally to alleviate another’s burden or to make their life easier? That’s the real challenge.

I have no problems with the believers – my problems are with the scriptures.

Most believers I have met have been perfectly nice people, and even if they only believe to have faith in *something* that’s fair enough. It’s when my life is affected by the beliefs of a group I do not belong to that it gets me defensive.

Sadly, Christianity preaches that everyone must believe as it says so in the scripture. It claims absolute truth as *the* word of god, and the general gist is convert or die. This has led to persecution of others in spite of the “love one another as I have loved you” moral..

Really, it’s all down to which parts of the bible you choose to focus on: the love, peace and harmony aspects are great – but they aren’t the whole story. There’s some pretty bigoted stuff in there too which most moderate Christians choose to skim over – I can respect that, but according to the scripture this makes them non believers and damned to hell with the rest of us, which leaves me wondering why they still choose to identify as Christians.. You either follow the book literally or you are a hypocrite damned to hell – that’s the scripture. So why still identify as Christian if you aren’t really? This isn’t intended as an attack, it is a genuine question.. I do not understand people who identify as Christian and then ignore what it’s about..

Particularly not at Christmas!!! :-0

Convenience is more important than hypocrisy for a lot if people it seems

Nom nom. Just tucking into my fry now!

……aaaaagh! Not in Ireland……now all I can do is smell a fry!!! Damnation and hell upon you!

Hatching, matching, and dispatching!

Same here. Hatch, match, and dispatch.

i feel so sorry for ye Atheist ye have noting to look forward to we catholic have we can look forward to God in the next life and there is a next life the God factor is Proved now we all might not get there but we try our best so i will live in that hope thank you.

Seamus..
Wouldn’t be so sure of that if I were you.. If you look at the bible the criteria for getting into heaven is a little more exacting than just believing.. Indeed, it’s written in such a way as for it to be almost impossible to satisfy the criteria for getting into heaven..

With your quick judgements you’ve already gone against the teachings of your Christ. An atheist on the other hand doesn’t really care about heaven or hell as they do not believe in them. So you did that to yourself for nothing..

How could I not ask? I mean come on :)

Nah.

Sean

If you had an ounce of intelligence you would realise that your added comment which had nothing to with the question could be regarded as insulting or even an incitement to hatred. In fact it is clearly a form of cyber bullying aimed at those who wish to participate in the discussion on this subject but fear being ridiculed.
Is it possible you have psychological problems which compel you to behave in this manner?

Paddy, judging by the froth mouthed fury of your response, clearly a nerve has been touched. Is your faith wavering?

@Paddy Rodgers- Wise up.

Well done Paddy, even God took a rest on the seventh day, maybe you should take a leaf out of his book and chillax.

It was a joke Paddy, mixed with how I feel, and it IS related to the original question. If you’re that insulted by it I think you are the one with psychological problems and also may need to stay off the internet if you’re going to be offended so easily.

@Paddy
He made a statement, not aimed at anyone in particular.
And it’s not cyber bullying. You chose to be offended by this statement.
If some catholic tells me I’m ‘going to hell for my wicked ways’, is that not bullying also, telling me I’m going somewhere bad because I don’t believe in your god. I don’t get offended because I choose not to.

Paddy, leaving religion out of it, you accuse someone of cyber bulling and then in the very same post you accuse them of having psychological problems.
The person you were replying to didn’t aim his comment at any one person whereas you directly aimed your comment at him.
Now there’s hypocrisy for you.

@Paddy Rodgers, I don’t believe Seán’s comment was anything remotely approaching “Cyber bullying”, which usually uses technology to target someone with hurtful or hateful messages or outright lies.
If you have concrete proof that the friends Seán speak of are not imaginary, please share it with us, I’m afraid atheists like myself, and others, would probably say there is nothing out there. You’ll just have to take it on faith.

http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/

then I suggest you steer clear of east Texas

@andy Murray just to comment that buddism is not a religion. It’s the way forward for human’s :)

I never said it was.
Just checking: all the rest are nonsense, except the one you like? Riiiiiiight.

Paul Anthony – I agree to a point. We’re all entitled to express our beliefs as long as they don’t impinge on personal freedoms. I think you’d agree…..

That’s the problem I have with the church. It’s the control they have over the schools when children are at such an impressionable age. Both my local schools are Catholic run and they are allowed discriminate against non catholics. My kids waste so much of the school week being fed other peoples superstitions…..

You’re setting up a pretty silly strawman there, in what way are these people defining themselves in the manner you allege?

There you go guys…..yet again proving my point. Who suggested I either have a god or was a Catholic. Of course when you use that latter descriptor you continue to display your ignorance as you don’t define the term by adding or omitting the word Roman.
It seems to me that those of you don’t have any beliefs continually sneer and deride those who have and when that is done in this space it is cyber bullying. If you are old enough to have children it is likely that you will neither parent them appropriately or at least be unaware of the learned behaviour they will acquire from you and cause damage to others.
You call it humour and I call it ignorance.

Paddy, if you’re that unhappy with this site, just don’t come back, and don’t let the door hit you on your whiny behind on the way out. No-one will miss your brainless ad-hominem rubbish.

Paul Anthony,

I know what you mean. Someone above described themselves as a “devout atheist” and I didn’t detect any irony (my bad perhaps). Live and let live is right, but what the institutional church has done here and in other countries must never be forgotten, or forgiven in my opinion.

Also, as someone interested in ideas, I’m as entitled to ridicule the thinking of the church as much as I am the thinking of Bernard Lewis. No special treatment. Agreed?

Paddy, you win yourself no favours by trying to tell people not to judge a religion and then judging them.. All you seem to do is make a hypocrite of yourself and no one likes such blatant hypocrisy.

As for the outpouring of negative sentiment toward the church. That is borne solely out of the behaviours of said church – their hypocrisy if you will.
They have preached hell and eternal damnation for failure to comply with their rules, they have discriminated against women, children and non believers for too long and now the people are standing up and telling them no more. That’s not bullying – that is standing up for yourself, it’s called refusing to be the victim any longer.

If the church didn’t want to deal with the aftermath then perhaps they should have stuck to the things they were supposed to stand for? After all – Jesus hated hypocrites and promised them a special place in hell.
Instead the church persecuted, murdered and tortured non believers, and abused women and children.. Hardly godly unless the god in question is evil, and if it is – why worship it?

and you know because ??????

evidence seamus, or lack thereof.
Religion up to a few hundred years ago was an acceptable attempt to explain things about life and the world around us. In the last 150 years especially those answers and teachings have become more and more redundant thanks to the genius of Darwin and many science fields such as cosmology, geology, anthropology… One thing that can’t be proven is what voices Jesus and Moses heard in their heads, if any, but it’s fair to say if such a character lived in our world today they would be brushed aside by most, not all, as mad men. The evidence on Jesus and Moses themselves is very sketchy. Personally I think if Moses did ever live he was a horrible man and so was his jealous God. The foundation of your religion collapses for me there but we could go back to Genesis if you wished…

Ah sure Moses was tripping out of his mind.. The burning bush – the acacia bush, is a source of Dimethyltryptamine, the most potent hallucinogen on the planet (found in many plants as well as in the human body).
Indeed, throughout the bible many hallucinogens are mentioned. Christianity – especially Catholicism, is a mushroom cult. Check out the giant mushroom fountains in St Peters Square and the Popes ceremonial robes – it’s the Amanita Muscaria or Fly Agarick. And many of the early scriptures showed Jesus surrounded by mushrooms, as for the “Holy Grail”, that’s a growing phase of the mushroom – which was always considered the way to commune with the god, it’s known as the Gods Flesh in Norse mythology (and is where Santa comes from).

Don’t believe me? It’s all been proven, and besides fallacious mudslinging, no one has managed to disprove it. Check out the work of John Marco Allegro and Jan Irvin.

Unitarianism is great! Once of my concerns with raising children in the Catholic Church would be that if my child was a member of the LGBT community, I would never want them to feel isolated and rejected. The Unitarian Church has been wonderfully vocal in supporting equality for all marriages in their traditions.

I’m the same. Weddings are a tough one because I’m happy for my friends who are getting married but totally turned off by the manure that’s flowing forth from the priest’s gob. I still though it respectfully but won’t don’t do the actions are repeat the mantras.

Errr, typos.

I sit through it respectfully but don’t do the actions or repeat the mantras.

Religion doesn’t cause war, it’s an excuse for war. If there was no religion, people would very quickly find other reasons to kill each other.

Yeah but believing that you are on a holy crusade on orders from the man upstairs to destroy the other group can make reasoning and peace talks far more difficult :(

Well, as a Quaker, I’m pretty sure we’re actually catalysts for peace in this world. Religion can be a good thing (I’m very proud of Quakerism) or a bad thing (I’m sure we can all name numerous examples), it’s all about how you use it (hint: Catholic Church stop lobbying against maternal safety).

Ireland’s maternal care is excellent. Women are not dying because doctors aren’t treating them in pregnancy.

Agree!

Bet u take the Christmas holidays and Easter hols people who are critical of the church but prepare to celebrate the birth and death of our lord sicken me n

Patrock i get bank holidays off,should i go and whorship at an ATM on a bank holiday Monday?seems by your logic i would be a hypocrite if i don’t.

@Patrick Bond. Are you saying, “people who don’t go to mass, should work Christmas day & other church holidays, but if they don’t work, they are hypocrites?”

Patrick, i do celebrate Christmas and Easter holidays, but instead of going to church i go on the lash, its better craic.

Thanks for the laugh there Patrick. :)

Christmas & Easter were originally the two major pagan festivals (Midwinter & Spring) that were just conveniently taken over by Christianity.

Christmas? The birthday of Mithra, and a celebration of the Winter Equinox. Sure, I’ll take that day off.

Easter, named after the saxon Mother Goddess? I have no problem celebrating the Spring Equinox, especially as it is associated with Attis, he of virgin birth, and resurrected annually.

By the way, it doesn’t sicken me that there are Christian holidays that co-incide with them, or that Christians get the day off too. Tolerance, my good man, would be one of the qualities your lad Jesus encouraged.

Have a nice Sunday (from the pagan worship of the *first* deity)

Well yeah paddy I am hardly going to turn down a few days off.

Hey Patrick, I work all holidays that are religious, i also don’t get bank holidays. So by your logic I can see what i want and be 100% right. Its all nonsense and even you know that deep deep down.

Why…you ask, well for a start even if Jesus did exist he wasn’t born on the 25th December,
The date of the 25th December is a total assumption which only came about in the 3rd century.

So don’t talk down to people about celebrating the birth of some lord, you are not even celebrating it correctly to begin with yourself, your whole celebration is only based on a assumption.

@Patrick Do you seriously suggest that as atheists we should ignore Christmas and Easter, and do what? Let’s take Christmas, the customs we associate with Christmas; giving gifts, caroling singing, giving cards, having a special meal, displaying desorations, including a tree, garlands, mistletoe, wreaths and holly. None of these displays of morality and goodwill that we associate with Christmas have anything to do with Christianity but in fact pre date it or have nothing whatsoever to do with it. You don’t have to be a Christian to enjoy Christmas, to be a morally good person and generally do acts of good.
Easter, was originally called Pascha from the greek word for “passover”, from which we get “paschal”. The date of easter was calculated as the first Sunday after the full moon (the Paschal Full Moon) following the northern hemisphere’s vernal equinox, the equinox is reckoned to be on 21 March. Eastern Christianity bases its calculations on the Julian calendar whose 21 March corresponds, during the 21st century, to 3 April in the Gregorian calendar, in which the celebration of Easter therefore varies between 4 April and 8 May. This was established by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.
The Synod of Whitby held in 664 then had to decide the precise date of Pascha, or Easter, it fell on either one or five weeks later than the feast as observed by Christians who follow the Gregorian calendar. However, occasionally the two observances coincide, and on occasion they can be four weeks apart. The reason for the difference is that, though the two calendars use the same underlying formula to determine the festival, they compute from different starting points. The older Julian calendar’s solar calendar is 13 days behind the Gregorian’s and its lunar calendar is four to five days behind the Gregorian’s. It settled the date of Easter which we have to this day.
The date on which Christmas falls varies as the precise year of Jesus birth is unknown, nevermind His birthday, the date of December 25th was just adopted, it was believe to coincide with the Winter solstice. Some countries still celebrate Christmas on dates such as January 6, January 7 and January 19 as there was confusion between the Julian and Gregorian calendar’s. For this reason, Ethiopia, Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, the Republic of Macedonia, and the Republic of Moldova celebrate Christmas on what in the Gregorian calendar is January 7.

Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity.. Santa was a Shaman, distributing the “gifts of the gods” which he found below what we call a Christmas tree, by climbing down the chimney of the locals..

Everything relating to Santa, the Tree and the gifts comes from this northern shamanic tradition. If anything it’s Christians who shouldn’t be celebrating it!

A shaman?? Saint Nicholas has always been considered the man behind Santa Claus, he was a 4th century Greek Christian bishop in Turkey famous for giving gifts to the poor, he was famous for giving dowries to three daughters of a devout Christian to ensure they didn’t have to turn to prostitution.
He is called Sinterklaas in Holland, where they use to celebrate his feast day on December 6th but during the Reformation this gradually changed to December 25th. He has been compared in some countries to Odin, riding a flying horse, in others riding a goat. Charles Dicken’s portrayed him in, “A Christmas Carol” as the ghost of Christmas present, describing him as “genial man in a green coat lined with fur”.
Much of what we currently accept about Santa Claus we learned from the poem “The Night Before Christmas”, first published in 1823 and written by Clement Clarke Moore but the Santa we now know and love, the jolly fat bearded man dressed in a red and white suit we owe to the Coca Cola company who first used this in their advertising in the 1930’s, and still do today.

All religions sell one common thing, hope. It’s as relevant today as it always was.

Kevin, unless you’re gay or believe in one of the competing religions, then you’ve no hope! Don’t believe the fairy tales people, you’ve one life, enjoy it!

“I KNOW”… How can you possibly make such a statement that you can’t prove?

Peoples fear of death and longing for a life there after will ensure that religion will always be around in some shape or form. I have little faith but envy those that do even my kids who believe in Santy.

@Lt Mr Worf: If you can prove he exists then I’ll change my opinion but until then I’ll just continue to trust the EVIDENCE put forward by SCIENCE that the universe was not created by a supernatural being as the bible and every other Holy book dictates.

@Kevin Mannion: All religions are based around a simple and basic fear that if you’re not a good person you will suffer for eternity, Where exactly is the hope in that idea. I consider myself to be a good person, not because of my catholic upbringing but because I understand the difference between right and wrong, principles instilled in me by my family and by society not faith. As I have said to others the idea of heaven is that once we die we go to a better place where we meet our families again and live in peace. If heaven is such a great place why wait, I’m not saying kill yourself but why do people go out of there way to avoid dying if where we are going is such an amazing place.

I agree with Gordon We have one life, don’t you think that that makes the precious moments we have all the more precious and worth remembering. Religion says that if you are bad you will suffer and so most religious people dwell on the “bad” things they have done.

Also as for the Santa thing. The image of Santa Claus we have now was created by the Coca Cola Company during a 1930’s advertising campaign. I have to say that I don’t have anything against religious people just the religions themselves, the philosophies based on hate and discrimination, slavery and fear.

Hey Colin – great piece – just one correction..
Santa was a Shaman collecting Amanita Muscaria mushrooms and distributing them. All that crap about St Nicholas and Coca Cola is disinformation from the time of reefer madness et al.

Yeah, nobody does death quite like the religion. I’ll give them that much.

Have to agree, the whole “respect people’s faith, it’s their choice, not hurting anyone” thing just doesn’t wash with me. An intelligent peer claiming that they believe in god, to me, means, it’s a coping mechanism, they haven’t really thought hard about it, or they’re just in denial. It’s like asking me to respect an adult who tells me they still believe in Santa, garden fairies, or the tooth fairy. Sorry, can’t do it!!

As a Quaker, we can be a bit iffy on the afterlife thing, but I find it a bit ridiculous when people claim my faith is hurting someone. Our belief in true social justice has led to Quakers having a long standing tradition of resisting war and violence, establishing soup kitchen and homeless shelters and free schools. No one else has to share my faith (and I would be very much in favour of a secular tradition), but I can absolutely say that the world is better for Quaker influence. I realise not every religion can say that, but there’s no need to say I’m a delusional person because I believe in social justice and I feel the presence of a higher being in nature and the beauty of the world around me.

Have to agree with you there, Nick.

Jim, I’m with you on this. I can’t understand how I could see it was a load of nonsence when I was 15 and yet most, even educated, adults still fall for it???

All well and good, but until the church takes full and honest responsibility for it’s role in colluding with and covering up the abuse of children by its members then some will make those blanket statements. Statements which I disagree with by the way. However the church cannot have it both ways.

LOL, spot on Mick, spot on

Didn’t he also have a thing about cannibalism but didn’t like pigs ?

lol yeah and what was his problem with 4skins????? He wanted others to eat him and enjoyed self mutilation and tantric sex

The question that brought it all tumbling down for me..
Who did Cain marry? There was only Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel.. And he killed Abel right?

Mind you, the story it was based on (Sumerian creation myth) said that there was an Adamic *race*, which would make more sense, at present the bible either advocates Incest or bestiality.

As for the cannibalism and vampirism, they relate back to the Amanita Muscaria mushroom cult.. The “gods flesh” as it was known grows into its “grail phase” where it resembles a chalice, water collects in it and the red pigment that leeches out of the mushroom gives the liquid the appearance of blood. Hence the “body and blood of god”.

Going is partaking. ;-) but I understand the sentiment.
The issue for many of us is that the rituals are so tied up in the Irish culture that we have trouble separating out the different parts. The point about attending funerals and weddings is important because it ties in with the respect that we have for the parties involved.
In many ways the rituals we have around death, while considered antiquated, are very healthy. In many parts of the modern world only the immediate family turn up for funerals, if them.

The strength of the anger and indignation is understandable but people need to stand back and see the merits of religous education in the context of modern governance, mythology and tradition, that doesn’t mean to swallow the propaganda hook line and sinker but it does show a respect for tradition and those that do believe.

10,000 out of a possible 40,000.
25% is a lot lower than the 90% the church claims.
I don’t think you’ve proved anything here.

delighted your church us up to date, you might consider sending someone to mitchelstown where a priest allowed a woman who had an abortion to give a speech about het exprtience at a children’s mass where she said for a long time she thought her special needs grandchild was punishment from god.

I think it’s terrible to use that poor woman’s painful experience as some sort of salutary lesson. She was brave enough to speak out on the traumatic after effects of her abortion and how she, wrongly. felt that she’d been punished. I heard her on Cork 96fm and really felt that she put herself out there and has been badly misrepresented. I think any woman who is willing to tell a personal story like this should be praised, not castigated. As for children being present, I doubt she went into graphic detail.

Did she not say that her special needs kid was a punishment in the presence of special needs kids???

Apparently it was graphic and she did consider special needs a punishment. Which…it’s absolutely horrible that this woman’s pain was exploited. But I can’t say I’m surprised.

she was speaking at a children’s mass, she did go into graphic detail and she did say her special needs grandchild was a punishment from god. if this woman is suffering then a room full of children some of whom had special needs was no place to do it. there is no forum where the sentence includes the wording ‘special needs’ and ‘punishment from god’ should ever be used around children. it was a disgusting thing to do and pure propaganda on the part if the priest who did it, I sincerely hope her grandchild never knows that granny thought his birth to be payback for her wrongdoing.

So, the woman was lying on Cork 96 fm? People should be very careful about posting the facts, not a false report on the facts. If a woman who’s in favour of abortion speaks, she’s a thinking human being who knows her mind and has made a mature choice. A woman who regrets her abortion is being exploited and hasn’t the wit to know whether she wants to share her story or not. And these comments from people who constantly claim to trust women to make their own choices.

no one has once said that this person cannot share her experience if she so chooses. what I am saying is that choosing to do this at a mass that is aimed at children and speaking to small children is wrong, she also gave this talk at the girls secondary school in mitchelstown, I have no issue with that as the people would have been going into that room to hear what was being said and who would have been aware what the subject matter was. a children’s mass was no place to do this, and no amount of backtracking on 96fm is going to change the fact that she stood in front of children and described the birth of a child as punishment from god and then had the neck to day the congregation took it out of context, again at a CHILDREN’S mass

Another local station had people on supporting her and she seemed to have spoken very sensitively about her story. There doesn’t seem to have been any complaints when priests apologised from the pulpits for the awful abuse of children. I feel sorry for the woman-it must have been tough enough talking about her situation without having people on her case afterwards trying to judge her for the way she felt.

There is abuse in the Church of Ireland also…but on a much much lower scale

I don’t think studies have shown that marrying prevents sexual abuse of children. Many children are abused by parents who are married or in a relationship.

Philip, I’m not one of those. I’ll move to another country before being forced to have my future children baptised. However, I can understand why people do it. If you want to put your kids into school, for a lot of people it’s a necessity.

It’s a very sad truth and a very good reason to work towards removing the church stranglehold on the education system.

And don’t forget it’s the big day out for a lot of people.
If someone doesn’t believe in god, do you really think they give a crap if the church sees them as hypocrites?

There’s also the question of mixed faith. My religion doesn’t believe in baptism and I have ethical disagreements with the Catholic Church (even leaving aside the child abuse), but my partner is a practicing Catholic. While I won’t take part in baptisms, if he organises them for our children, I’m not going to stop him. They’ll be equally his children and so long as I can introduce them to Quakerism as well, that seems fair.

What’s this? Tend to avoid churches whenever possible, have no idea what you are referring to, could you please explain?

The Confiteor is a prayer said at mass. It was recently changed to this version:

New (corrected) translation:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have GREATLY SINNED
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
And, striking their breast, they say:
THROUGH MY FAULT, THROUGH MY FAULT,
THROUGH MY MOST GRIEVIOUS FAULT;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Ah, I completely understand your problem with it. Thank you for answering :)

I’m not a believer in any shape or form, but could you try to keep the comments at least a little constructive? Harping on about how god is an invisible friend is just the same as a religious nut saying all of us non-believers are going to burn in hell for all eternity.

James, no it’s not the same! One is rational, the other is irrational and only in their head because they were force fed it since childhood. Try teaching those fairy tales to a 16 year old for the first time!

Constructive?
What EXACTLY is constructive in teaching kids to put your trust in an invisible man?
Seriously!

Teach them to have trust and faith in their parents who (should) know better!

I will let ye all off all i can say is when ye die it wil all be revile to ye

I’d love to see the shock on your face when you’re embraced by his noodly appendages!

Again with the judgement.. Judge not lest ye be judged, and woe to the hypocrites and all that..

Ah Seamus, you sound like a man that has travelled beyond the grave for a while and returned? What does she look like and what kind of woman is she?

Is labelling people hypocrites not a judgement?

“That man gives good mass” ~ Father Todd Unctious.

Gandhi said ” I like your Christ, I don’t like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ.”
Very few Catholics follow their faith completely. They pick and choose what suits. Clearly they don’t follow the rules on contraception or else Ireland would be full to he rafters. Religion is no more than a controlling cult.

Why bother? @ Darren

Exactly slap’stick.

Darren why do you attend a service if you don’t want to be there, do you go to church to please some one, mother/father ?
can you not have your god’s blessing without going to church, ? what god by the way are you asking to bless you, is it the one that you have no idea if he/she is there or not.
its all such a mind f*****k

@Patricia f*****k. Can you give me a vowel to work with? Seriously, F_ _ _ _ _ K. Whats the word?

Finback is a sort of whale. Fogbank? Is that one word? He is a bit of a fogbank…

Maria, you left out the word “currently” in the phrase “…the majority don’t agree with them..”. Religion is dying very quickly.

Many of the indigenous faiths have an element of that to them.. Native Americans, Aborigines, Witches and Shamen often refer to Mother Earth as something to be cherished and respected. Could do with a bit more of that alright..

Indeed Fred see if you can find your favourite priest on the list.

http://www.bishopaccountability.org

He might, if his favourite priest is American. What’s the relevance to Ireland?

Mollydot child rape is an international problem and the Roman Catholic Church is an international organisation. The actions of good American Catholics to expose bad Catholics is a positive approach to take to protect their reputation and show that they don’t support paedophiles in their church. So what’s this got to do with Ireland well it shows up Irish Catholics and their lack of action to genuinely deal with this issue like their American brethren it shows that the Irish catholic would prefer to passively cover up the crimes committed in this country.
http://www.bishopaccountability.org

church.

Sorry there Dermo, but your brain washing is showing.

You forgot Mary.

Oh regular mass goers can be the biggest hypocrites, I see it in my own village on a regular basis. All smiles & nicey nice to the public but total devils behind closed doors. These people are the ones that make me sick.

Killawalla,

According to the bible, you are the hypocrite. Stop judging your neighbour!

Matthew 7: 1-5
01 “Stop judging, that you may not be judged.

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02 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

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03 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

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04 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye?

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05 You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.

“Hypocrite” is a word which is used quite alot on the comments section. Used in many wrong places.

The vast majority of hypocrites are mass goers, so called a la carte catholics.

Hi Cora, not at all. The comments simply serve to place the article/poll in context, as last week’s Church services in particular received more attention than usual due to the content of the gospel, homily and overall pastoral message.

It was this attention, and further media attention during the week which led to this general poll on Mass attendance. I accept that maybe this could have been more clearly outlined though.

Thanks,
Emer

Meh, this is a poll of Mass attendance by TheJournal.ie members. I too find it curious that is the slant of the article. Odd that the writers would make that connection but then again there is a very pro abortion slant on The Journal. They’re entitled to have whatever editorial slant they want, just don’t try to claim impartiality/

@Cora

I’ve updated the preamble to the poll a little in order to place it more in context.

@Liam There is no editorial slant intended here.

Thanks for reading and contributing,
Emer

@Emer –

Thanks for the clarification and amendments, Emer.

It would be unfortunate if the debate that we so badly need – and deserve – on abortion got thrown off-course by discussions over the Church’s involvement. The Church is entitled to contribute just like any other group in society but the fact remains that abortion concerns human rights, not religion. The Journal readers can see this from groups like @secularprolife, @ProLifeAtheists, PLAGAL and of course the writings of secularists Nat Hentoff and the late Christopher Hitchens.

Cora, the biggest enemy for the arguement that abortion is not a religious issue is the heavy involvement of the Catholic Church. Shooting themselves in the foot, really!

For the record, @ProLifeAtheists are a majority Catholic group: http://geoffsshorts.blogspot.ie/2012/12/prolifeatheists-and-damascene-conversion.html @SecularProLife are also majority Catholic.

@ Dave
The poll will be visible on the site all day. We’ll also be tweeting a link to it again this afternoon in case some people missed it.

Thanks,
Emer

Isn’t there a Saturday night Mass anymore? Or is that not ‘real’ Mass?

@emer All the comments at the top of the list are going to be originally from the first posters who will generally be non mass goers, because it’s mass time. It does show bad taste and an attempt of provocation to post an article like this at such a time. Why not post before early in the morning or in the afternoon.
BTW. I don’t go to mass unless it’s for a Christening, Wedding or Funeral, in respect to someone else.

@Dave

“attempt at provocation” and “bad taste” infers that there was some kind of intent to influence the results of the poll. I do not accept this inference and you are incorrect.

The poll was posted at roughly the same time as all our weekend polls. It was posted as soon as it was compiled, as is the case with all of our polls. There was no intent. The poll is visible in the same spot on the main page of the site all day and will remain there until it is replaced with a new topic tomorrow.

The poll also refers to religious services of all types, some of which do not take place on a Sunday morning.

Thanks for reading and contributing,

Emer

Dave,
There are other things people can do on Sunday mornings besides Mass :)

@Emer, You’re welcome. But do sit back and have a look at the article and it’s replies.
@Rommel, I agree. A lot more useful and productive things too.

If you got a billion plus followers it would