Well said Mary.

Mary McCarthy:
“I do not think there is anyone in this country Pro Abortion !”
how can you say that ?? – you’re playing with words
‘pro Choice’ my arse
we are all Pro Choice
what do they want to be free to choose ??
Abortion on demand -
that’s what Claire Daly, Bacik & co have admitted that they want.

Michael O Toole

As a man you are never going to be forced to choose between your health and the life of your unborn child !
I hope none of you’re family members never have to choose !

Pro choice means that you support all options being available and allowing each woman / couple to look at all of their options and make their *own* decision. CHOICE.
To wish to restrict the options available, and ultimately remove an element of that choice from others is ANTI CHOICE.
To be pro abortion would mean that you support abortion for all. This would lead to the destruction of the species, this is utterly ridiculous.

Pro Life seems to mean pro foetus, or pro forced birth, as there is not much consideration given to the “life” of the mother. Also, the opposite of pro life is anti life, and that is not a suitable description of the other side as they have concern for life, it’s just that they prioritise already viable independent humans lives over a foetus that depends upon another for its existence.

Sorry.. Pro and anti choice are the only suitable descriptions for either side.

@ Shanti Om:
you say “To be pro abortion would mean that you support abortion for all. This would lead to the destruction of the species, this is utterly ridiculous. ”
you’re correct – that would be “utterly ridiculous. ”
not even Claire Daly, Bacik, or the most rabid pro-abortionist i’ve heard, are in favour of that.

you also say – “the opposite of pro life is anti life ”
correct again – thse who support abortion on demand are indeed anti the lives of the unfortunate unborn babies whose lives are ended by the abortion ‘doctor’ – c. 200,000 in the UK each year.

those who support that the mother be given all necessary care, even if that care, results in the ending of the life of the unborn baby – those people are not ‘pro abortion
they are Pro Life.

@ Mary McCarthy:
you say “As a man you are never going to be forced to choose between your health and the life of your unborn child !”
how can you be so sure of that ??
my understanding is that some of the ‘doctors’ who perform abortions & those who profit from the profits of abortion are male.
i also believe that men sometimes pressurise their wives/partners into ending the lives of their unborn babies, by means of abortion.

@ Mary McCarthy:
you say – “I hope none of you’re family members never have to choose !”

i hope that if any of them “have to choose”, that their choice will be to protect the life of their unborn child.

@Michael O’Toole

“@ Mary McCarthy:
you say “As a man you are never going to be forced to choose between your health and the life of your unborn child !”
how can you be so sure of that ??”

Basic biology, men can’t have babies.

Also pro abortion is bullshit. No one wants abortion to have abortions, it isn’t something that’s hip and trendy. It is a medical procedure, something no woman would ever want to be in a situation where they have to make that decision.

What do you mean abortion on demand, and why are you against it?

” we are all Pro Choice”… Are you really, I call BS here too

4000 Irish abortions in the UK next year and nobody is pro abortion in this country?

and micheal if they choose abortion will you disown them .

Ah Michael, them’s some impressive mental gymnastics.. I will have to deduct marks for the fact that it completely missed the point and made about as much sense as a nursery rhyme, but I’m happy to award you a 6.7

@ Michael Kitching:
like you Michael, i was once an unborn child.

BTW i agree with you – “men can’t have babies.”
& some ‘pro choice’ fanatics here say – “no uterus, no opinion”
& they get a lot of green thumbs here, for saying that,
guess, they’re saying to you, Michael – STFU.
i think they’re saying that to me anyway,
& like you, Michael i say to them – i won’t STFU.

@ Kellyanne Ross:
you ask me – “and micheal if they choose abortion will you disown them .”

i don’t know, but i hope i wouldn’t disown them.

@ Shanti Om:
so you award me a 6.7
knowing your views, as expressed here over the last few days, i’m a little worried,
but not as woried as i would be, if you had awarded me a 9.0.

sorry – but i think your earlier comment was ridiculous.

you said – “To be pro abortion would mean that you support abortion for all. This would lead to the destruction of the species, this is utterly ridiculous.”
as i said – not even Daly, Bacik or the most fanatical pro abortionist is that ridiculous,
& to be honest , i don’t think that you’re that ridiculous, either, Shanti Om.

oíche mhaith.
codhladh sámh.

Michael O Toole
Maybe you need to go back and read my comments again !

1. Your personal health will never be at risk over carrying an unborn child . That is a fact of life 2.

Ah Michael, that’s my point.. No one is pro abortion. They are pro choice.
They aren’t anti life, or pro abortion, they are pro choice.

Those who call themselves pro life continue to show quite a heavy disdain for the lives of women by prioritising foetuses. So to call them pro life is not strictly true, it is true to say that they oppose choice, so anti choice is a more accurate description for the side..

The points were for the mental gymnastics required to get from what I said to where you went, not the comment itself, so don’t worry :)

@ Mary Mc Carthy:
of course, i agree completely with you there.

i would just add that i’m very happy that, as far as i know, that my “personal health” was never at risk when i was “an unborn child”.
thank’s to my good mother – Beannacht Deí uirthi.

& you know Mary, i hope that that the “personal health” of any ” unborn child”. will never be at risk as a result of anything i say or do.
on the contrary – i hope that i will continue to stand up for the defence of the “personal health” of unborn children, against those who want to introduce abortion on demand to this state.
& i hope, Mary, that you are not as intolerant as others on this site are, about my views as expressed here.
.

ah Shanty Om
tis very late
we’re all ‘pro choice’ – we make all kinds of choices, all the time, don’t we ??

MY point is that there are very, very many who are ‘pro abortion’.
if there weren’t, there wouldn’t have been c. 200,000 abortions carried out in UK last year,
& there wouldn’t be people in Ireland seeking to have abortion available in Ireland, as it is in the UK
sorry Shanty – the truth is bitter.

Was it not the case that they voted no to C Daly’s proposed legislation…the government are obliged to legislate!

As a woman I would like the CHOICE to save my baby. From so many near death experiences in my family, where there is a heart beat, there is hope.

thats the point i was trying to make michael o toole , if a women were to make that choice it would be their choice. and wheather you agree with what they have decided i would hope that people would respct that choice. not all women who travel over to the uk are monsters . and i personally feel that the stigma in this country for a woman to have a abortion is terrible. do you think these women shoild have proper support .

@Michael O’Toole

“like you Michael, i was once an unborn child.” Really? I thought you were a cyborg (sarcasm)

I have spoken to those people who you say are radical (I call them fed up). I don’t agree that just because I or you are male means we can’t discuss the topic. I do think that we have no right to force a woman into making health care decisions she doesn’t want to do. These “radicals” are simply fed up by being judged and forced into positions by men who will never know what it is like. Especially by the one of the most anti woman organizations in Ireland (the Catholic Church).

Also answer my question, what do you mean by abortion on demand, and why are you against it?

nice play on words

anti choice, pro choice, religion and pro life. why have you not used the real words abortion and anti abortion.

simple fact this country and it’s people don’t want abortion on demand and the real debate is the inclusion of threat of suicide that would open the doors to abortion on demand as it did in UK.

you say you want debate but that’s not true as you gloss over the issues.

you could agree or disagree that suicide poses a real threat to a pregent woman,
that there is no supporting stats. but it’s a possibility that should be covered.

As you haven’t made these distinctions it’s irreverent that under current law and as everyone wishes that the mother’s live shouldn’t be protected and a termination of the unborn child if there is a sinifican risk to the mother. it’s also easy to extract that ensuring there is clarity in the law is not your goal.
as abortion on demand isn’t cathered for.
so don’t belittle people’s faith believes because it’s different to yours. that’s what a bigot does.

make your case for abortion on demand based on logical reasoning, reasonable view points that may be a benefit to socity. Or not, but there is no debate in hiding behind words looking for a back door to achieve goals.

shouldn’t was indended to be should
(predictive text and all that )

@ Tom, I do not hesitate to belittle faith, fundamentalism, dogma and irrationality when it risks the lives of real human beings, vulnerable pregnant women who deserve our protection, not dangerous law.

You addressed not a single one of my reasons or arguments.

I am happy to be called a bigot by you. You will never be open to reason. Your mind is closed and your sense of empathy is shut down. The Youth Defence League demonstrates the true nature of those who are anti-choice.

I will not waste any more time responding to nonsensical and illogical arguments.

@Tom faith is believe without evidence.

If someone else’s faith is going to impact my or someone else life, then I’m damn sure going to belittle it.

No one should be forced to obey laws passed because a religion that he/she does not hold. It’s voodoo, bullshit, superstition (need more adjectives?)

Science flies us to the moon
Religion flies us into skyscrappers

The voiceless innocent children need to be protected from those who speak of women’s rights. Surely the most humane and reasonable position is to enshrine in law the current medical practice that every effort be made to preserve the life of mother and child but that nothing would recent a doctor acting to intervene to save a mother’s life even if this means the loss of the baby. Thus is far from what abortion activists want an opportunity to agitate for abortion on demand. Be honest and especially Fine Gael do not allow the Lsbour tail to wag the dog ! John Roscommon

More like the crystal night. When the brown shirts were on the the march.
The new Eugenics.
But the only difference today is -, it is the mostly the healthy ones that will be incinerated.
Yes, Incinerated. There is no other way to dispose of ” medical ” waste .

I had intended to go in to the rally , but like you said it is cold out and I just chickened out , But like you I would support this Bill.

Sounds very intelligent. Have a grown up debate with people who only agree with you. Doohh…

the youth denfence = small minded control freaks. most of there members and believers come from the bible belt in america.

MrMagoo. Eh, no. I’ve yet to meet any Pro Lifer that gives a rational reason to why a abortion shouldn’t be legalised. My personal view that Abortion should be only legal before 10 weeks if no substantial threat is posed to the mother. The only time I will agree with after 10 weeks and before 14 is where there is a threat to the mothers life. This nonsense about “You’re killing a baby” is just that, nonsense. No baby have survived prematurely before 20 weeks so therefore I think it is reasonable that the ‘person’ doesn’t become life until after say 18 weeks.

Well said !
Let’s get a proper sober and calm debate going.

Dublinlad72 – again dooh !!
Most babies left in the womb survive from day 1.
Where does prematurely come into it? Do you mean prematurely aborted ? otherwise let the baby develop as it is meant to and guess what?…….a beautiful baby will be born.

The baby won’t survive if the Mother is dead/dying/extremely ill you plonker. What on earth are you babbling about? Typical ‘pro-lifer’ – starts yammering on about ‘killing beautiful babies’..
You haven’t a clue.

mr mcgoo your missing the point that a lot of pregnancies end in miscarriage.

Here’s a tip. Re-read what I just typed, think about. Read it again, SLLLOOWWWWLLLYY, think about it, then reply.

Dublinlad the basic human right to life is the rational argument. personally I women should be given the choice. I feel we should trust women to make the decision themselves. in saying that I can understand where the pro lifers are coming from. I do believe that life is life right from conception. I dont agree with this craic of dehumanizing an embryo. and in your post you say pro choice before ten weeks. the reality is that a woman may be quite close to that point when she discovers the pregnancy, especially if she has an irregular cycle. so putting such a tight time limit on such a big decision probably ain’t a great idea.

the pro life argument of abortion for contraception is completely for the birds. I’m not a doctor but I’m sure that it’s not a nice procedure.

I think people are entitles to their own feelings on such a sensitivity subject but some respect on where the other side are coming from is needed too.

sorry about all the typos, I’m using a phone.

Gamma – point taken. The post is my own personal view and I’m not saying we should do 100% what I said. Just my opinion.

But yet you say people that express a different opinion should perish in a hole?…… Strange that.

Dublinlad that’s cool its nice to actually have a calm reasonable conversation about it. most of the comments I’ve read are totally one sided with no thought given the opposing opinion whatsoever so thanks for the open debate

Express a rational opinion and ill respect it. Not spout garbage.

In my opinion your whole spiel about before 10 weeks is irrational garbage. So get in that hole when you’re ready.

give it a rest James, the grown ups were talking rationally.

Spoken like a true lefty. lol

Wait, so now leftism isn’t an economic stance but a social one?

Every time you ejaculate you are killing millions of living sperm cells. Shame on you!

You should keep them all alive and feed them on a daily basis. Give them a chance.

Dublinlad, I hope you would be accepting of termination for medical reasons too. It’s quite disgraceful how we treat women faced with such a tragic diagnosis for their much wanted babies.

Mr Magoo, I’m afraid you were incorrect in your statement that most pregnancies survive from day 1.
In fact, for the first trimester the odds start out at 80/20 miscarriage / survival. Most fertilised eggs are shed with the next period and may never even be noticed. If they implant successfully their chances are still pretty grim for the first month or so, by the third month the odds of miscarriage are 50/50.

So really, *most* of them miscarry.

#Jack Daniels, there was 2 people in the pub tonight looking for you.

Good ..

There was via the oireachtas website or agenda.ie. Both stream every minute when ever the house is sitting. Debate over now. Bill defeated.

That was expected … No free votes .

A few abstentions from all parties and also from a few independents however. It was reported the first time that the wording was quite poor and that even some moderate pro-choice people were not in favour of it given said wording. I’m wondering was the wording much different this time?

And did all those pro legislation labour TD’s vote no and against their own program for government?

#Eileen You don’t need to go out on a cold night,Your comments are seen here and are allways sensible.

Denise
Thanks :)
Eoin
I wonder the same about the wording .

That’s a good question. Don’t know is the answer I’m afraid though. As someone who is pro choice this might sound weird but I do wish that that anti choice side wasn’t so religiously infected. The standard of debate would only improve and I’d think that without the absolutism of religion to crash upon we might find a lot of common ground. People like me who are pro choice don’t actually like abortion it’s just that you can’t have rules in place that don’t allow for all circumstances. Having no choice when it comes to anything is not a good thing. But with the lunatic fringe on the anti choice side everything gets polarised and there is no room for reasoned debate.

Agreed. If there is any headway, any compromise to be had then we need to be sticking to facts and rational debate. Overly emotive language does not really get anyone anywhere, and is often a deliberate tactic to manipulate anyway.

The best way to persuade the general public into anything is to spew constant fallacy after fallacy with a side dish of political doublespeak. It takes some knowledge of logic to spot this for what it really is. It obscures debate and provides method for those with an agenda to successfully push it. It is dishonest and exploitative, as logic does not make up any part of our basic education system.

We need to stick to the facts. This may seem cold and clinical, but this does sit within the realm of medicine which is a clinical setting. The ethics is a separate debate, and it too needs be held in a rational, LOGICAL manner.

just go on to youth defence facebook page . ive never seen so much vile and disgusting lies on one page. what madens me more is they block anybodys views that dont agree with their views.

Which disgusting signs are those? I must have missed them..

very cleverly worded to try sneak thumbs up. Shame on you.

Perhaps we should let people decide their own morality as opposed to having it forced on them.
Perhaps that’s why we should trust women to make their own decisions as opposed to having it forced on them.
Perhaps you’ll agree that this issue is not black and white, very subjective, and thus should not be a universally applied legislation.

When it comes to the life of another morality cannot be subjective. There are inalienable truths that cannot be willed away by “rights”.

Don’t have an abortion then if that’s how you feel.

You see life as an inalienable right, when we kill hundreds of lives every day. Of non-humans, mainly, mind you. But my point is that life alone is not enough to apply a moral absolute in the sense as we do with murder, manslaughter, war, et cetera. Even these cases are not seen as an absolute evil in many cultures and many situations. Morality is always subjective. And if there are inalienable truths, what are they? Who decides them?

Hilarious

Pro abortionists ? Really !

*Face Palm*

I object to the anti-choice group bring referred to as the pro-life lobby, given that they would rather risk pregnant women committing suicide resulting from incest, rape etc. its time we recognize the anti-choice group by their real mask.

Now that you mention it, it is quiet suspicious!

You are literally too stupid to merit a response.

Cathal I’ll try answer your points here.

You ask how long Ireland would get ‘abortion on demand’ or rather in our present financial situation “for those who can afford it.

Presently those that can afford it have ‘abortion on demand’, we just send them away to the UK to do it. The only people actually affected by these laws are those that cannot afford it, a number that is rising since the recession. So, in effect, any of us protesting (I was one) for this are sticking up for those that are most vulnerable in our society right now. That’s dealing with the financial aspect of it.

I would also ask that you don’t use abortion on demand as a term too. No-one has ever wanted to have an abortion, it’s a horrible procedure and costs a lot of money. No-one wants that, some are forced into that it by their financial means, because they were raped, because of abnormalities in their baby, because of any number of reasons. Using that term makes it sound like people actively want this to happen in their lives.

As for the rights of the father. I understand your point but here’s the problem with it. Let’s say you impregnate a girl and she, at present, decides to go to the UK for a termination, what are you going to do about it? You can talk to her sure but if she still says she wants to go you cannot stop her, unless you commit a crime like kidnapping her. Now reverse the situation, you impregnate a girl, she wants it and you don’t, what are you going to do about it? Only way of stopping her is by committing an equally horrendous crime as kidnapping her.

So when you talk about the father’s rights, really he has no rights and that’s just me being practical about it. He can have a say but ultimately it is the girl’s body and it is her choice what to do with it.