Let them sell what they cannot afford!

Put 94k houses all put on the market? Have you any idea what that would do to the banks, the economy, the price of your home? Get a calculator and multiply 94k by say an average house price of 150k. It’s a scary number. Where will these people live? Yeah you guessed it the taxpayer will be footing the bill.

To who Shaun? And even selling in this market is going to leave them with a large debt and no asset.

The banks have already set aside the write downs. They will have new mortgage business, not trackers, which people will be able to pay.

The govt. will get stamp duty. Solicitors will get conveyancing fees. Surveyors will get fees. Estate agents will get commission. And if property prices fall we all pay less property tax.

The ex home owners will enter the private rental market, like many thousands of others, and either rent what they can afford or go on a housing list. I would love a 3 bed house, but I rent a 2 bed apt as that is what I can afford.

There’s only so much buying and selling you can do on an island. One of the main reasons there was a crash.

:Perhaps they would Shaun; but you’re forgetting something – who will be able to buy those homes?

No need for surveyors anymore, the government value all houses now.

let them eat cake!!

Disappointed? Strange really when you consider it took politicians one meeting in the middle of the night to facilitate the handover of €100 billion. Politicians its seems can move quick enough when the mood strikes them. But then again one must be a bondholder or banker to get that kind of care and attention paid to a request for financial assistance and/or complete bailout.

People with mortgage arrears, the disabled, the now forgotten residents of Priory hall and all other such individuals in our society are pretty low on the food chain and will forever remain at the back of the line.

What you need to do is lose billions. You need to incur an extraordinary financial liability to the state to get off that government pay no mind list. A distressed mortgage simply doesn’t rate on this scale as the kind of collateral damage imposed on the state as a consequence of having one, according to our governments misguided assumptions, is limited to the pain and suffering endured by the family in possession of it.

It took the suicide of a government minister for our elected representatives to give a good shit about bullying in social media. By that logic what we require is a government minister to suicide due to the distress incurred as a consequence of losing the roof over his head.

It’s crappy logic, but when I hear Michael Noonan throw the word “disappointed” around in that ministerial off the cuff sort of way to describe the inaction of both the government and the banks in addressing this fiscal timebomb I find all I have left is crappy logic.

@ My Dog Barks Some, you speak the truth. There is some hope when there are people who recognise reality. For some reason, our politicians cannot or will not be our friends because they listen to a different set of interests, the lobbyists and those inside the sphere of influence.

Like you were quick to bail them out, act as fast to get them lending, stop them screwing the people that sustain their very existence. Also the bullshit you feed us has worn thin a long time ago.

I think it’s time Noonan gets over his ‘disappointment’ and actually starts sorting this crap out. He admitted on the programme that should Richie Boucher come looking for €3billion he wouldn’t be turned away. Now when the dysfunctional banks can wield this much influence over a government there IS a serious problem.
The system is utterly rotten whether we like to admit it or not.
This is like being in a situation where you have just finished building your new house and have moved everything in and painted the walls and made the beds…and you notice cracks in the walls, small at first but in a short time they become big and they are everywhere. You get expert advice, you employ a company to stabilize the building, they inject compounds into the cracks, they set footings, but this doesn’t really help and the cracks continue to grow…finally you realise the only solution, after huge expense, is to demolish the house and start from the foundations again, because that was where the problem, is at the very foundations, and nothing else will fix the problem. That is our banking system and that is the solution, not a nice one, but the only one.
Noonan doesn’t see this, he sees the short term, the reelection cycle, he doesn’t see the debt we’ve left to our children, he didn’t ask them if they’d mind dealing with our debts, if they’d mind becoming indentured workers.
We have failed our children, we have failed as a NATION. We must swallow that fact and we must change how we do things, soon.

The other half and myself are currently waiting to complete a house sale (we’re buying), from a family who are in mortgage distress.
The house was on the market for a value of X, we offered a bit below X, which was accepted by the family, not by their bank. The bank wanted a value of X*1.5.
Incidentally, the exact same institution valued the house in order to approve us for a mortgage and said that the house was only worth what we were prepared to offer (in fact, they said it was worth less).
Now, I’m not great on the financial side of things, but I’m guessing that you can’t tell the seller that the mortgage is worth 400K, and tell the buyer that its worth 200K. Which is it? It can’t be both? Can it?
From what I gather, banks need to get realistic. Is there a point in pursuing a family who have just given up their own home for every penny that they have? In our case, the house was only worth half the mortgage owed on it, that’s all we as the buyer were prepared to offer, therefore is that not what it’s worth?
I think it’s also interesting that all measures that have been put in place not just in this area, but in other areas too, really only skirt around the edges – time for some good decent reform.

James that is like a scenario straight out of a Douglas Adams book…like WTF!! I’d suggest hitting you head against the wall but I’m sure you’ve tried that and other easy fix solutions. Seems like our banks have become ‘Special Needs Institutions’ no offence to anyone with special needs by the way. We are comfortably gone way past the banana republic stage now and are moving into multidimensional Lala land, sorry for your troubles.
I’d bawl at the bank manager…everyday…phone him and bawl at him…piss him right off…then phone him the next day and the next….

Oh we’ve gotten them to accept our offer, but I think they’re still pursuing the family! I sincerely hope that it does work out for them – they were pleasant to deal with. (The family!)

@ William Ruane, that is profound and insightful. Thank you for saying what needs to be said and understood.

yeah – the old “sure I know we own them but we can’t tell them what to do” line…

The banks could start by given us the tax payers back our money

The banks will use it to recover part of the debt if a property is sold for less than what is due on mortgage. The issue is people want the banks to write off debt but let people keep the house. What is equitable about that? No one is going to hand 100k to people who didn’t buy which is in effect what a debt write down is.

Well Shaun the government did it for the banks why can’t they do it for the people !! Makes sense !!

It was a terrible idea to do it for the banks, what makes it now a good idea to do it for some people unable to pay their debts?

….”pretty little head”….lol

That money has already been given to the banks, Minister Noonan refered to this on Primetime. The banks need to be taken to task now by the people who re-financed them.

I’m fairly sure you already gave that money to them. If the government really cared about the Irish people it was then that they could have forgiven the Irish people’s debt which in turn would have meant that we could has easily afforded all these new taxes. Now they just created another problem and the banks are laughing all the way to the bank!

If people want debt forgiveness for people who are behind on mortgages then that’s exactly what will happen,

Makes me think most people haven’t bothered to actually think about it for more the 5seconds.

The Central Bank claim that the banks have already been recapitalised to deal with mortgage problem (I hope they are right) so new money is needed.

Barry why should people who are behind be forgiven? I struggle each month to pay my mortgage and put it ahead of every other bill to ensure my kids will have a roof over their heads.

The only reason I’m struggling now is that I’ve been taxed to death and my mortgage has increased by 40% in repayments. Who’s fault is that? Not mine but I’m the idiot caught for it.

If you forgive one you forgive all mortgages.

Jim, How has your morgage gone up 40%? Just wondering? Not a dig or that and fair play on your attitude to paying your way. Just that seems rediculous.

Crikey 40% is a massive jump. I’m finding it very hard to figure out how you could have such a large increase. Did Moving from a tracker rate to a 15 year fixed rate or something crazy like that is the only think I can think of. I really hope you didn’t let the bank talk you into moving from your tracker.

better than the banks repossessing homes and the taxpayer having to pay for accomodation for the people who lose their homes
the banks win every time!!!!

the banks have used the money to fix their balance sheets they have conned the government

beware the goverment stooges on here.

we bail out foreign banks and leave our own people to rot
shame on you noonan

Well said Peter, I’m thinking the same. You cant begrudge young people in this country a chance to live a normal life again. Some have young kids themselves and dont need to be brought up in this bank created poverty trap. It’s not good for them or for the country.

@ Thomas Roche, the Pope’s children are financially crippled by mortgage debt and all because the accident of age. It will benefit all of society if the yoke of excessive debt can be removed. Exactly, the distressed borrowers have children. Long term poverty and social exclusion are an inevitable result unless this massive national crisis is sensibly addressed with some enlightenment.

You can pick up an apartment for 60k! Go and buy it.

Hit the red thumb by mistake! Green thumb all the way!

Correct Seamus !! They should restructure distressed home owners !! And write off the arrears . The economy needed this . Money needs to be freed up so people can spend again. Also nationalise our oil and gas finds they should be taxing them proper like every other country

Fair play to you Seamus. I’m in the same good situation as yourself and think it’s right we give young people a chance in mortgage difficulty. They are the future in this country and unfortunately will shoulder most of the costs of these bank bailouts.

I have three years left on my mortgage and I hope to see it paid off. I have an increasingly secure roof over my head. It makes me wish he same for others. My comfort and shelter are not undermined by the assistance given to others.

At Seamus, James and Thomas, you have identified the reality of the present predicament. If the massive noose of debt is left in place, we will have a two decades or more recession, as with Japan.

In Ancient Greece, Solon the Lawgiver in Athen cast off the burden of debt and enabled the golden age of classical Greece.

Debt drowns our economy. Debt reduction will allow recovery.

The best way of destroying any hope is the sight of widespread repossessions.

My iPhone converted “mortgage debt” to “morgue debt”.

And who is going to house 94,000 people ??

They are welcome to my crappy rented apartment that I cannot get out of due to a stagnating property market.

Who is going to bail out renters who loose their job and cannot afford their rent.? Landlords will have them out on their ear and there will be no one running to the Dail to protest.

We are running the risk of creating a two tier society – those who bought and get bailed out, and those who didn’t and get nothing but crap housing in return for high rents.

Don’t feed him! They bite!

Karolyn – what is the basis of your assertion that I am a troll? Is it because I think in fundamentally wrong to bail out individuals who on their own volition made a bad choice?

Who is going to bail out the renters? It’s called rent allowance ?????? You really should think before typing!!

Michael – have you any idea how much rent allowance is? It will not meet the cost of rent in most cities

Rent what you can afford to put it in your terms! Renters do get bailed out, people in arrears however get nothing only another tax. This is my point.

Shaun the renter wants dead forgiveness lol ..

So Michael, the renters have to ‘rent what they can afford’ but homeowners can stay in what they cannot afford? That’s a bit of a double standard don’t you think?

Not once did I mention debt forgiveness!! If house prices fall, property tax may fall this year but next year it will have to be increased to make up for it. Most people didn’t borrow what they couldn’t afford. Circumstances changed for a lot of people. If all 94k walked out of there house in the morning the banks would collapse and the economy would collapse. So who would give you a mortgage.? Furthermore, if you can’t get a mortgage at present then maybe you can’t afford it either. Property prices will rarely drop below the present building cost. To go back to my first point, it is ridiculous to tax people whom already cannot afford their mortgage.

too right sean, it’s this mentality of entitlement that these irisl people feel like they should get a free place to live when I an others were prudent in our finances and decided to rent.

John
did you have a problem with bailing out the foreign banks and bondholders?

People need to get kicked out of their products they got loans to buy, same way as if I bought a watch on loan and stopped paying the loan.

john you didnt answer my question

@ Shaun the Sheep, you are well named.

And allowing people to sign up for such mortgages was reckless of the banks too.

It’s true what you’re saying – but it’s another side to it…

No, historically, and properly, the responsibility for assessing lending risk lies with the financial institution, including the veracity of the lenders’ income & outgoings.

The ‘greed & irresponsibility’ therefore is firmly with the banks’ executives.

Think about it. Aside from the trivial job of handling the payments system, the banks’ primary role is risk management – it’s fundamentally what banks do. This is what they are supposed to spend their time doing, & pay themselves very well for it.

The banks’ executives have failed miserably, except as regards their own bonuses (who’d of thought…?), & much more seriously been aided & abetted by regulators, public servants, politicians & economists. All of the latter were supposed to be guarding the public interest.

So let’s just get the ‘responsibility’ where it lies.

Resolution of the arrears should not mean handouts to private property owners. Fortunately, it doesn’t have to, there are all manner of restructuring, part equity stakes etc. options which can be used which can allow families to stay, whilst relinquishing some (or even all) of their ownership.

Indeed, this could be done with similar structures to part purchase social housing programs. And there is no reason why such programs cannot be self financing, at no cost to taxpayers. It’s simply long term housing investment done, in part, by the state, rather than private landlords for profit. Arguably, given the massive lack of quantity & quality in social housing, it’s something the state should be doing anyway. Both to adequately house citizens & ensure a much more stable private market for those who want to live in property, not just get-rich-quick gamble with it. Win-win for home buyers & renters both.

Of course, this won’t the bankers or speculators/developers. The question still remains, 6 years on exactly who our public servants & politicians are really representing, with this mess still getting worse?

arb
can I ask why you seem to make the customer culpable nearly all the time and not the banks
i worked in banking for 8 years and I can tell you everything was manuipulated to get the person the loan, the banks were complicit in bad lending practices. i witnessed a mortgage manager telling a customer to get a letter from his eployer to say he did 50 grands worth of overtime each year to bring the mortgage amount up

@Arb
Its kind of disturbing that you seem to have no problem with paying the debts of gamblers but when it comes to your own people you are more than reluctant.
Very patriotic of you!

Grossly reckless and excessive lending by the supposedly expert lenders unregulated by the regulatory watchdog was the cause. Please do not blame distressed borrowers for the faults of others. Do not further victimise the victims.

“You have to remember also that an interest only [loan] can suit a lot of people if they have a temporary crisis; if someone is ill, if somebody is out of work, a capital and interest only can suit a lot of people.”

Pathetic Noonan
Pathetic.
A Temporary Interest Only Facility does nothing but increase your repayments once you come off it.

In the Anglo promissory note “deal”
Seanie Fitz’s criminal €33 billion Anglo gambling Debt was
extended to a 40 year term,
given full term interest only,
on a low interest rate.
Don’t you not think it’s fair to give the homeowners/taxpayers (who are paying the above debt) the same deal on their mortgages, at least until a better option is found.

You b**stard!!
Might get to marry their eldest daughter as well.

Good idea (licks lips even more)

@ Joohn, spoken like a true Irishman, good idea. Exploit the misery of others.