You own your house and therefore it’s value. Your neighbour doesn’t own theirs.

And again what has the value of your property got to do with a charge that is supposedly to pay for your councils local services?

Oh and don’t forget the free gift you get from the government through mortgage interest relief. Funny how all you property owners manage to forgt tt subsidy…..

The register of electors is a source, as is the tax credit data the revenue commissioners have.

So much for Data protection ! I will not be paying it . Sean Quinn got off scot free last friday as far as I am concerned .as have so many of his ilk….. As a PAYE worker all opf my working likfe I never defaulted on paying my taxes , but no more.not another cent !

as im reading your post that song is playing on the radio, holy moly thats freaky.

Haha as long as it’s not live radio we’ll be ok.:)

Why stop there? Don’t bother paying your motor tax or income tax. Why should you if they have wasted 55m on voter machines. If everybody paid zero tax we’d be in a much better place.

@ Irish Renters

The money is already available except they want to use it to pay Bondholders.

What money? We are spending 12 Billion more every year than we take in and that is nothing to do with paying bondholders. Are tax base is way too shallow, focussed on middle and high PAYE workers.

No Joseph- it’s a wealth tax- as renters don’t own the property why should they pay it? The landlord owns the asset therefore he is liable for it, just as the landlord profits when then they sell the house.

Hmmmm well that’s funny I seem to remember it being framed as rates to pay for local amenities rather than a wealth tax and last time I checked tenants do use amenities

If even 1% of the remaining people pay due to the automated reminder is should easily offset the cost. Cheaper and easier for everyone than bringing individuals to court.

Will they not interview people who ignore the letters?

Stick to your guns.nOnce you are on record with Philli you will face one charge after another.n

Sorry for crashing but forgot to mention NATIONAL PROTEST on Wed 18 July. Assemble Central Bank Plaza at 5 pm from where we will march to Dáil before they break up for their summer holidays. nnTime to put our spineless givernment on warning that we want our country backnn#NoHouseholdTax

My understanding is that It’s a charge against the property that will have to be cleared once the property changes ownership. In that case are you not just better off paying it rather that having to pay all the additional fines?

No John. You’re better off letting the government know that you’re sick of bailing out banks and to tell the Troika to feck off with their bomb threats.

John, any future government is free to reverse the charge and penalties that may accrue (If we eventually get a government who will act against the injustices that have befallen our people)

The main argument that most people make against not paying the tax as evidenced by Réada’s comment is that they don’t want their money going to bail out bankers. I.e. the issue is not really about the tax at all. Therefore, given this week’s restructuring of Irish debt, with the Sovereign now no longer liable for the recapitalisation of Irish banks, surely this ought to change peoples’ minds about paying the tax.

Ignoreland. Don’t know who you are but you seem to know more than Michael Noonan and Enda Kenny. You seem to have a lot more detail than they do. So we don’t have to pay bondholders and we’re going to have all our money that was used for such paid back? Dream on…

You’ve avoided answering my question so I’ll ask it again. I know the details have not been fleshed out yet, but hypothetically speaking, if we are reimbursed for bailing out the banks would you then have an objection to paying the household charge?
I can’t understand why people who consider themselves to be left wing are opposed to a property/wealth tax.

Ignoreland the reason the left are against a property tax is largely down to the high amount of house ownership in Ireland. The cynisism of asking house owners to fund such is disgusting. Here we are, a nation struggling under negative equity and with our citizens worrying whether they can afford their next mortgage repayment – all due in no small part to the cheap money that was flooded into this country with cheap interest rates which in turn caused the rise in house prices. That is why I got involved in this movement. Its introduction as a register tax gave us an opportunity to take control and seize a bit of people power. If you have already paid it and regret your decision cancel your standing orders with your bank or if that’s not possible refuse to pay next year. We have already funded local services from our taxes. We do need to raise more taxes. Let them tax those that can afford it. Make another tax band, make 4 or 5.

did you happen to check if your estate is one of the exempt ones? If it is then you are getting excited over nothing as you are not liable to pay it regardless of whether you beleive you should or should not pay.

yes we checked in January, and no we are not exempt, even though there are 8 unfinished sites around us. when i went to the county council i asked the receptionist if i could speak to someone, she said no. my husband went to a county councillor and was told nothing could be done!

Join the Campaign Against The Household and Water taxes ( CAHWT) There is a website AND facebook pages . Check out your local , network !

Darragh. nThis is a mindful observation. nIt appears that the authorities are moving within a legal minefield. nBut as I always said. nThe property tax was just a means of ascertaining to who owns property. nFrom here it is merely a simple excercise to find out who has a septic tank. nOr indeed other money spinners they wish to impose on us.

very correct Stray Mutt, then they will start privatising these companies. Denis O’Brien bought SiteServ in March, this company is perfectly positioned to carry out the water meter fitting and further on down the road will be able to run Irish Water completely. We will have to wait 20 or so years until we know how much corrupt payments were made so the government would sign off on this deal. Remember Denis & Enda at the New York Stock Exchange?? that was about a week after the sale of SiteServ to DOB & afterFrench company Altrad offered €15m MORE for SiteServ and was told by the government it was not for sale. Further more DOB owes Anglo/IBRC in the reagon of €500m but I wont go into that here, my rant has gone on enough!!!

Doesn’t seem to be a whole of you’together’ on this. Going by this article alone, 3 months ago payers outnumbered non-payers 19-1.

Sorry Robert, where are you getting that figure from? 19-1?
disregarding the governments figures, independent figures show more home owners have refused to pay the charge than have paid it.

Robert 52% of house-owners have not paid this tax. The figures the government have released include landlords who have paid for multiple properties. They managed to raise €90,000 from just 3 such people. Read it again. Your eyes do not deceive you.

@Reada the household charge is the start of a property tax which is a pretty fair and progressive tax. Well overdue in this country.

Yes you do Mel, which we never got. Its completely illegal what they are trying to do.

I think its section 12 of the act that might disagree with you on that one.

Alan, most waste collections are now privatised do that has nothing to do with this tax/ charge or whatever you want to call it.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it sean. We already pay through current direct and indirect taxation for the services covered by the household tax in other countries. We are being asked to pay a second time for the same services because the first lots being pilfered to pay rich peoples gambling debts.

Sean, the council here still collect at an extremely overpriced rate

Alan, one of the few places left in the country so that still has local authority collecting and yes they are well capable of charging for the privilege despite the actual cost of sending waste to landfill having fallen.

tootrue, the reality is that the basis for funding local services in Ireland was fatally undermined by the abolition of domestic rates by the 1977-81 FF govt. Since then we are probably unique in that all local govt services are financed centrally rather than locally like most other countries. The idea of financing such services locally is correct but its the circumstances in which it is being done is where there is the difficulty ad what should be paid to central govt by taxpayers should fall by a corresponding amount, and well we all know what’s happening there.

sean, whether or not the system is fit for purpose is no excuse to charge people twice for the same thing while our money is handed to rich gamblers who lost their bets..

Too true, would agree in an ideal world that if you are going to rebalance how public services are funded ny moving from central to a locally funded model then one would have expected a drop in the contribution to the central fund to offset that. The problems in the Irish economy however are so fundamental that its not happening now unfortunately and we are all suffering the consequencies. The why’s run a bit deeper than paying back bondholders because of a policy decision taken in Sept 2008 by our govt which then became European policy which we got locked into. The reality is we had an unprecedented building bubble which “infected” all parts of the domestic economy and has done untold damage to the economy and society at large, this has been largely ignored because its easy to blame the banks and bondholders.

Cal. You seem to hate everything down here. If you are so unhappy would you not be better off moving back up north? Just a question.

Bye, bye esb. Will be moving my business elsewhere. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas, and they don’t come any mangier than FG/Lab.

This will arouse Joe Duffy no end tomorrow.

Joe Duffy aroused…thanks for that mental image…shudder.

It will take forever to compare

I doubt it, for some reason we are not that kind, it must be the weather.

No, we are the kind that sing our hearts out while we get trashed in an international sporting competition. Seriously, we need to get a grip.

People-killed-in-riots-and-banks-burnt-down-with-employees-inside style? I’m all for supporting the right to protest but there’s no need to advocate violence.

There are Anti Austerity protests going on all across Europe , including Germany . So where are the news reports ? RTE being the censor again ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-austerity_protests .

And you believe everything sinn fein says??

Gerard, i would believe them a lot quicker than the shower that were in the last time, and in there currently. How Kenny justifies his 500,000 a year total compensation package is beyond me. We had a Labour minister rule out any cuts to the Taoiseachs and Ministers salaries in the coming budget. That tells you everything you need to know about these thieves.

@cal1nnI completely agree with you cal in everything you say but it would be extremely dangerous if the general voting public started to believe that sinn fein is the way forward, it may not seem possible for the state of the country to become any worse but you can be certain that sinn fein and their ludicrous politics would test that theory.

Can i ask which Policies you find ludicrous. I ask that, because a lot of people say it, but they can’t back it up with examples.

Their universal health care policy is just one example of the ludicrous policies I speak of. Their policy’s sound wonderful in theory but when they are broken down are mostly proved to be nonsense and populist.

Gerard, there is universal healthcare in the North. If SF got into power in the South, then all they need to do is repeat the same model here. We spend more per head of population on healthcare, than the Northern part of the Island. We have had successive FF/FFg/Labour health ministers who have only made our health service worse and worse. Surely its time to allow a party in, that has actually created a Good health service somewhere else take charge.

But could you tell me where the enormous public finances would come from to fund this universal health care? It would take massive tax increases on top of the taxes we have already and we all know what the public think of those. And don’t tell me we should increase tax on the wealthy because the tax that would be collected would be a drop in the ocean compared to what’s needed.

I’m sure the €25 billion that fine gael has handed over to bondholders since taking power would cover it Gerard.

Gerard
Why not ? We believed FG and Labour and they were guaranteed their turn in Government without telling lies . SF have yet to be tried and tested in government !!!! I will vote for them over FFG and labour any day !

They did according to the business post – - but news like this never gets beyond the Rte new-editors desk, just in case they fear they are letting the population know that the peasants could be revolting and our wonderful way of life is undermined. Anyway here’s the link – http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/Household+charge+office+on+fire/id/19410615-5218-4fed-9385-e1e2a3706442

How come this news was not on the News ? Strange that such an interesting piece of news was not widely reported !!!!

The same amount as it will cost me to return it!

mobile home round the back may be.

They did according to the business post – – but news like this never gets beyond the Rte new-editors desk, just in case they fear they are letting the population know that the peasants could be revolting and our wonderful way of life is undermined. Anyway here’s the link – http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/Household+charge+office+on+fire/id/19410615-5218-4fed-9385-e1e2a3706442

A big mistake this country made was abolishing domestic rates. An unimaginitive public went for it without realising they would have to fund it by another means. Local services must be paid for. The local council must be funded and it should be funded locally, not out of the national coffers. That will stop one independent TD, the likes of Healy Rea holding the government to ransom. Locally raised money spent locally. Why is a household charge morally unjust? In the UK they have the council tax. Is there an assumption that I want to pay it? Of course I would rather not pay it but I think it’s the way local services should be funded.nIt makes me laugh when express shock horror that we might lose power to Brussels or the EU. Bring it on I say. Let the Germans run our banks.nLet the EU put manners on us.nAs a nation we have shown since the foundation of the state we are incapable of getting anything right.nAll we have heard over the past 3 yrs is ‘burn the bondholders’, no where more than here. As if it was some sort of gungho solution to the crisis. Turkeys voting for Christmas. Enda Kenny has shown with the recent bank deal this week that this is a slow burner.nMany won’t agree with my views but I am putting reasoning behind it.nFor those who don’t like my views it’s called opinion.

Enda Kenny has shown no leadership on this whatsoever. he was placed in storage during the run up to the fiscal compact treaty and now that spain and italy have shown the way forward he has reared his head again… …anyone could have played Enda Kennys role in this bank deal but him taking a salary that would choke an ass is an insult to every single person in this country

It’s not a property tax. It’s a household charge for services. Nothing wrong with that. We need to get out of this mindset ‘a mans home is his castle’ and it’s an attack on my being to tax my home. Each home should be taxed for services based on value. Even the 2nd home notion is flawed. I could have a house values at 200k and a little cottage down the country worth 80k and I pay a special stand alone tax because I am a wealthy 2nd home owner. Yet, if I had 1 home worth €3 million I wouldn’t be subject to this.nIt’s a flawed system.

Eileen, no idea about the office being burned or anything like that but to contradict one of your stats, while the tax/charge might have been paid on over 50% of properties as some were payments by individuals on multiple properties the conventional wisdom is that less than half of property owners have paid. Hope that makes sense.

Hey Eilish – at least i got your name right – thats the first i heard of the office burning down, it would be a major embarrassment to the power that be, me thinks.

Sean, the purpose of the water tax is not to conserve usage or pay for our waterworks, it is to generate extra revenue to fill the hole left by our taxes being thieved to cover bankers gambling losses by this and the previous government.

All Local Authorities anywhere who charge for these services deliver. I would be willing to pay € 100.00, if the water pipes were fixed. Over 50% of treated water is leaked thru rotten pipes in Dublin. If our roads and bridges were maintained and it included refuse collection, and the €100 was taken out of the amt. paid for USC, I wouldn’t object. Otherwise, go sing for it. If it’s not taken out of my pension, I’m not paying for services I don’t receive!!

Horrible hing is, Marie, the money we’re being forced to use for the meter installation would fix most of the leaking pipes, conserving MORE wate and improving quality than all the metering under the sun.

I havent paid or registered for a house hold charge, im using that old Irish “cute hoar” method, let them find me first, just as some so called celebrities use “cute hoar” tactics to avoid paying extra tax, so i think your mistaken then you say ” they advertise their own law breaking”, don’t think any laws broke yet??????

I am not paying the HHC nor have I ever condemned Bono for not paying more taxes here !!!!! I am not a fan of his but as far as his tax concerns go , I have not made any comment ! Nor will I. I believe he does a lot for the Arts here !

Water conservation is not on the agenda here Sean. 42% of treated water is lost from poorly maintained pipes before it gets to the point where it would be metered and that is a conservative estimate. Your point that the banks are a separate issue is correct to a point however the last budget cut 170m from the local authority funding. This money along with other cuts went to pay unsecured bonds on various dates ( i can get the specific dates and amounts if you want). This gap in local authority funding was to be plugged by €100 charge that would equate to 160m if you believe the government figures of houses in Ireland. The census has proven there is more like 1.9m houses that would be liable which would have more than covered the cut.

Maybe just lose the posts, they are so bloody annoying :)

And do you think I’m typing them in?nI’m not alone.nI suggest you direct your query to the Journnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnal!

Eilish.nIf you read my post you would understand. The nnnn is not my input.nI can’t explain. I guess it is some bug with the Journo app. It didn’t happen before the last update. It is not just my posts it is effecting.nPerhaps the journal can explain or better still sort it.

The ‘n’ is a bug .. Each time I press return on a mobile when posting it puts an ‘n’ in there

eeh, no we shouldn’t.
I do like the fact you wont pay it again ‘until everyone pays it’. I just wouldn’t hold your breath on that. The fact that you paid it means you have been registered as the owner of that property and you will be one of the first ones to be hounded next year when it’s due again. Sorry.

Most middle section of society are mortgage holders so this tax hits them the most…nobody else but them really ?

@ Dave Looney.

”The state needs this money and will raise it one way or the other”???

The state needs honest, transparent, non corrupt leaders and governance, not more money.

As an individual, if you are bad with your money, then getting paid more will not solve your problem, it will only increase your debts and your losses.
The same goes if you are a government.

As homeowners we must be responsible for keeping our household budgets in order.
(Which most of do, in spite of getting robbed by an inept, greedy, schoolteacher government and their banker friends on a daily basis).
So too must our government keep the country’s budget in order.
However the government wont achieve that by
(1)Lying to their people,
(2)Stealing from their people to pay themselves undeserved inflated salaries and pensions.
and
(3)Stealing from their people to pay their banker friends gambling debts.
Which on all three counts they continue to do.

He says as he posts a link to the report…

Yeah,I should have said other than this report DOH! :-)

Agreed …. Enda Kenny/Gilmore and the rest of the Government sponging off us for over 12 months. They must stand down, and allow people who know what they are doing, take control and actually lead the country. Call for an election immediately Gingerbread, i am with you on this.

Cal
I could not agree with you more… I will not be paying .

You mean the loan programme. Bailout is what you seem to think we should keep doing for the banks. None of this goes to local services. Or should I say what local services?

I think that you will find that the majority of those who paid are blind followers of FFg/Labour. They don’t mind that the FFg/Labour govmnt handed over 3 thousand million of our money to unsecured bank gamblers this week. If i buy a scratchcard and lose, can i go back into the shop and ask for my money back O’Reilly? Can you tell me one shop in the world (other than the Irish Governments closed shop) that would pay back on failed bets?

That would be a valid analogy if bonds were bets.

Ask Phil Hogan why he didnt pay his charge on his Portugese holiday home…

What’s that got to do with anything .

Greece’s hot. Germany not. Send us a postcard!

And still nobody answering my question

I am…. I can’t wait for a nice week in the sun… That extra €100 should buy me a nice few cocktails!!!

I’m on holidays now in Italy…! Fab! And I’m still not paying! Ciao bello x

I am and don’t forget the winter ski holiday, hey gingerman you sound stressed you should take a holiday

me. :)

Presumably you’ll want them passed on to tenants?

Suppose it would be fair if everyone paid with no exemptions including tenants.I assume renters use services provided by the state aswell.

No property taxes should be paid by the owners. It is not a service based tax, but a tax on ownership.

@Irish Renters..

You will end up paying through your landlord charging higher rent. The tax will be passed on to you.

now how do you feel about it?

A landlord can only charge what the market will bear. Passing costs on like that does not work in a fluid market with hundreds of thousands of landlords. Your understanding of economics lets you down.

Your understanding if human nature lets you down if you think this tax won’t be passed on.

I’m sure some will try but rents are not based on cost. If that was the case then why do landlords without mortgages charge the same as those who do have mortgages?

SAo, you say ” Property taxes were sorely needed the past decade instead of stupid SSIA schemes” – The SSIA savings scheme was implemented to try arrest the spending of the general public and incentiveised by offering you 25% return on completion. They were trying to calm the public spending, it was a good thing.

Then you went on to – “I look forward to the €1000 per annum property taxes coming through the next few years” – Are you trolling or what? you look forward to paying MORE tax, having less disposable income?? I really think that says it all Irish Renters. Have you noticed how many people are giving your comments a thumbs down? Surely you can realize your opinion, if it’s actually not a joke is in the serious minority. Ireland has one of the highest income tax rates in Europe and these taxes are supposed to cover our water rates, street lighting, Gardaí, land tax and the rest. It is a centralised taxation system where it is all taken at the same time direct from your income. The fact is the government has used that tax to clear unsecured bonds instead of passing it to the various departments who need the funding.

Relation to your comment ”Its a tax on ownership” – would that have not been covered by the stamp duty on purchasing said property?

And finally, you said “If that was the case then why do landlords without mortgages charge the same as those who do have mortgages” – because in a valued society if I have something that stands me no cost I would still sell it for it’s market value. This is capitalism, look it up in a dictionary. While your there also look up trolling and dimwit.

Our taxes are pretty high for middle to high earners but very low for low incomes. When you factor in child payments far too many households are net benefiters from our tax system.

“Our taxes are pretty high for middle to high earners but very low for low incomes”, I wouldn’t agree with it being ‘very low’ for low incomes but this exactly how a proportionate taxation system should work so good for you for realising that even if you don’t understand it. I would argue though that the highest earners still claim taxation relief disproportionate to what would be commonly agreed as acceptable as well as recieving child welfare etc. I am an advocate of a wealth tax of around 3% on earnings over 100k and a much larger percentage (10-20%) on bonus related payments.

“When you factor in child payments far too many households are net benefiters from our tax system” – While there are spongers out there popping out babies for the single mothers & rent allowances, in general the cost of living has to be subsidised somehow when people are down on their luck. Remember there is a percentage of people out there that have 100% mortgages on homes valued at half the purchase price with esculating bills for petrol/heating etc and marginlly dropping for food, clothes etc. The government & banking sector have created this specific group of people and are now content on bleeding them dry to subsadise the very banks that created this mess. Either way Irish Renters, I have decided not to bother with you any more, you are either a troller or have your head up your arse.

“in general the cost of living has to be subsidised somehow when people are down on their luck. Remember there is a percentage of people out there that have 100% mortgages on homes valued at half the purchase price with esculating bills for petrol/heating etc and marginlly dropping for food, clothes etc.”

You have hte impression of somebody that knows what they are talking about but it is just that, an impression. I know what a proportional tax system is and not all of them are the same. Huge amounts of people in Ireland pay little or no tax. The FF governments of the last decade eroded our tax base to buy votes and massively increased our welfare budgets. We now have nowhere near the moeny to support these generous breaks. We need lots more people working in low paid jobs and paying more tax. We need a lot less people on welfare.

So let me get this straight, you think a blanket increase in costs across all suppliers isn’t going to be passed on to the consumer? Cookoo, cookoo!!

like archaeology much?

A €100 charge will be made against a property,
that is in a couple of hundred thousand Euro of unpayable negative equity,
due to the scheming of corrupt government(s) and their greedy banking friends.

Sean
The banks are lying about the number of distressed mortgages on their books.
The real truth is that there are at least a quarter of a million mortgages either in default or headed towards default,
not to mention the people who are in incurable 40, 50, 60, 70, 80% negative equity, who have yet to smell the coffee.

When you are struggling to feed your kids
and you are up to your teeth in arrears and negative equity
and the bankers who caused it are writing the laws of your country
A €100 charge against your property doesn’t bother you too much

What utter rubbish! Half the country are free loaders? More like half the country have woken up to the banana republic and realised they are still being conned but just by a different crowd.
I have always paid my way and am happy to do so but not when it means enabling the continuing gravy train for the politicians, developers and worst of all bankers who’s attitudes are the real reason this is a banana republic.
If they’re short of money then they need to start looking a bit fu€king closer to home.

In fairness we’re not a Banana Republic in any real terms so there’s no need to bring these inapplicable, groundless, and emotionally charged terms into the debate.

I did further up

Kevin.nThere is nobody taking your house from you. There is much anger out there and rightly so. There is much anger towards Enda Kenny but bear in mind, and I’m not here to support Enda Kenny, but this crisis was brought about by a wreckless Fianna fail government that didn’t govern effectively. However, they were elected 3 times, but who will admit to voting for them.nGoing off the point but on another thread I was highly critical of Ryanair and their schemes to hoodwink people with overseas contracts and mechanism to bypass the minimum wage and pay €5 / hour. Yes, it’s going on. In this country. I get many more red thumbs than green ones. The country is rotten to the core. Even the people we think are not rotten Are rotten. Why oh why can’t we run our country for our people and give everybody a chance. Why can’t we stop the scullduggery and bypassing of rules and regulations by smart arses who have the whole country adoring them. Not too much has changed, believe me. A similar thread about Russell Brand had everybody supporting him. Lots of ‘wouldnt you do the same’. No i wouldnt and im not some sort of moral god. I’m happy to pay my way. I want to pay my way. I think there is more to life than beating the system at every opportunity.