When you see that list, the full madness of Shatter’s policy strikes home

No, because all these empty Garda stations will have to be protected by security companies who will make an absolute fortune from this madness

Rubberneck politicians usually are regardless of whether they should be or not.

Delighted with the priest at the murdered guarda’s funeral. Making his big speech about the closures and his elderly parents living in fear, his elderly neighbour being beaten. Just seen in my local paper a 21 year old bet up an 81 year old with all his might for his wallet and then stabbed a taxi driver after for good measure. 3 years with 18 months suspended. Absolutely sick of this country, we as decent people deserve so much better than this! Shatter go rot in hell u pompous pr!ck!

Hear, Hear!!!

More people like that priest need to speak out. The guards aren’t allowed under threat of imprisonment themselves. Shatter is just like his predecessor McDowell with his ‘let them eat cake’ attitude. McDowell didn’t give a damn who’s sons and daughters were beaten up until it happened to his own son and then he and his wife blamed ‘useless’ Gardai! These people don’t live in the real world. There is no deterrent and the only people worried in court are the guards. So much effort put into policing the police and none into punishing offenders. How about an ombudsman for the judges and their lack of sentencing?!

That is “two faced politics” at it’s finest.
This gormless sleeveen is so detached from reality he actually believes his spin.
What turned my stomach was looking at the leeches making their sorrowful speeches on tv. Each and every one of them had their speeches written down for them .
There isn’t a sincere wish among them.

If ministers or the Taoiseach didn’t attend the funeral you’d all be bitching about that too.

No we wouldn’t David.. I’d have preferred if he stayed in the Dail and ran the country the way it should be run and that isn’t going to happen any time soon by these gombeens…

@ David, I wouldn’t. There are a few TD’s that knew Garda Donohue personally that most certainly deserved to be there and Michael D Higgins to represent the nation not the complete government.
It just distracted from the message sent from the nation.
Hope you don’t think I’m being snappy David as no insult is intended and hopefully none taken.

Exactly!!!!!!!

Shocking & beyond belief, It is really extraordinary how out of touch Minister Shatter & the other Ministers in this Cabinet are!
I work in Kerry & in my work I am constantly meeting & visiting older people , especially , in rural areas.
This closing Garda Stations & the subject and the fear of this ridiculous policy of this FG/Lab. Coalition comes up constantly in ordinary conversation.

The disconnect of this Government to Rural Ireland is just extraordinary !
So much was promised after the disaster of FF/Gr.
Why is it that the poorest , most vulnerable & easiest targets in Ireland are the most let down by this Government ?
I imagine the eventual outcome will see the annihilation of Labour especially in the next Election .
I suppose we got what we expected really at the end of the day from an extreme bunch of right wingers like FG?

The chorus of fear from older people especially, is deafening !

David
In reality this move puts ninety eight Gardai on the beat or patrolling as otherwise they would be babysitting mostly derelict buildings. It also saves the cost of maintaining old and damp facilities.

there is a lot to be said to have a local garda around just showing his/her face.
a bond between locals and a garda who knows everyones car and everybody cant be understated,
if a garda know his people inside out he/she will spot any outsiders up to no good

David it does not free up 98 Gardai. Those Gardai are already operational patrol officers. They patrol their Garda sub-districts and they supplement manpower in the adjoining sub-districts and the district HQ area. They only spend a minimal time on office duty, are out in their community and when contacted by the community directly or through district hq can return to the station to deal with callers who have matters of an urgent nature to discuss. The Department spin on the closure of the previous 39 stations (most of which were already permanently shut) was that 160 officers were “freed up for operational policing”. The fact is that over 150 of these were already operational and the real numbers freed up were only a few admin staff in the few largest stations that closed…… Tumble-dryer manufacturers like Hotpoint & Zanussi should build the departments press releases into their machines cos theres enough spin in them to leave u permanently dizzy…

Eddie they have never been in touch they got the votes from folk at the g. Election cos people really needed to believe that they would bring change Yea they did alright cos all folk have now is change in their pockets and the other changes are happening like closing down A&Ee starting in Roscommon and this shower will not be happy till all our very well educated young folk have left Ireland and all the older folk will be left behind.Closing down Garda Stations is a disgrace in rural areas as it is in hugely populated areas and it is all to save money so that the bond holders and troika will be paid again it is proof of how much respect they have (Not) for ordinary man woman and child in this country. They all turned up for Detective Garda A.Donohue’s state funeral yesterday just to be seen and not really any locality to the Man or his devastated family and colleagues at all. None of them are true to their word so how do we expect them to be true to the Irish People They took the votes and lies and it has been proven their lies are all coming out now and they will be knocking on doors for votes again and I hope the PEOPLE will speak volumes with the black pencils then Shatter will be just like M.McDowel…. Never heard of again along with Kenny and Gilmore and all their cronies

? ? ? Where is my post gone too ???

Disgraceful, the poor man, albeit a very brave man too

Shotgun, double barrelled shotgun, loaded and trigger pulled

I completly agree with you Pat. But who the hell are we going to vote for if we dont vote for FF, FG or Labour. Is there a viable alternative?

I recall thinking after the last election that FG and Labour benefited from the mistakes of the past administration more than from their own mandates, that people were sick of FF and wanted a change. Regretably, the change seems to have been in name only. And I know they will keep on with the mantra “we had to take over with the country in ruins after FF”, but they need to give that up now. They are in 2 years.

I am genuinly concerned as to where we turn to next. The 3 biggest parties (Labour to a slightly lesser extent) all think the same way. If we wipe out FG and Labour at the next election like FF last time, FF and SF will probably be the main beneficiaries.

Oh Jesus…

In the states 90% of the law enforcement budget doesnt go on salaries , hence better equiped , same with the education and health departments

“Taken into consideration” means that the other convictions are exactly that when it comes to sentencing for one. It doesn’t mean they get away with the rest and are only sentenced for one. It would typically be a more severe sentence on the one to reflect the totality of offences.

And the chances of going to jail aren’t “very slim indeed”, depending on the crime of course, but Irish jails are bursting at the seams. Plenty of people are sent to jail every day.

What is wrong with the normal patrol cars used e.g. mondeo, avensis etc. most of which it is my understanding are 1.8L and 2L. Fair enough ensure cars are safe but it is really necessary to spend a LOT of money on having high powered cars for the whole Garda force just so as from time to time if there is a chase involving another high powered car, the guards are better able to keep up? It’s good police work that catches criminals, not a 3 litre car with a computer in it.

So when could it be raised, after the closure date!?!? I’m not a FF fan in any way but that was a pretty dumb comment.

@Seamus. Are you serioulsy trying to compare Ireland in 1922 to Ireland in 2012?? John Parker ex president of the GRA, Damien McCarthy current president of the GRA, Willie Gleeson, President of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, John Redmond, deputy general secretary of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, Mick Carty former head of the Garda Emergency Response Unit and Former garda assistant commissioner Martin Donnellan have all come out and said that Shatters plan to close stations is flawed. I sincerely doubt your experience or knowledge on the subject ecxeeds that of the afore mentioned. You also make reference to the 300 new vehicles but no refernce to the number of vehicles that will be taken out of the fleet due to them exceeding 300,00km. The policing model that has served this country well over the years is one based on interaction with the community, where a relationship of mutual trust and respect is developed. Gardai travelling in vehicles, rapidly responding from call to call does not make people feel safer and is more suited to Hollywood than rural Ireland. The original objective of the response policing model was to catch the perpetrator in the act of committing the crime , numerous studies have shown that this ideal situation rarely happens due to delay in the call being made; time spent processing the call and difficulties discovering and getting to the location. The model has a limited, if any, preventative capacity.

Do all crimes happen in the three hours a day that the current stations are opened? No, indeed if I placed a call to my local station it is rare that the Gardai from the rural substation respond, it is always a car from the larger town station. Community policing is not dependant on bricks and mortar, the Gardai will still be in local communities, local knowledge retained and relationships with the local community. And Yes I am comparing Ireland in 2012 to 1922, we do not a vast network of stations anymore. And if you look at policing policy from the 1700’s, the police force was set up not to protect people but property. A large network of stations was needed so officers could be within a reasonable distance by horse. We have strong property laws too because of this. I like every other citizen has a right to comment and have an opinion on public policy, just because I’m not a former top Garda does not bar me or any other person from expressing an opinion. The closure of Garda stations was recommended by the Garda Commissioner in his policing plan. I do not second guess the top Garda in the country in how he runs his force. Many of the Gardai who oppose these station closures are current/former senior officers who do not want change or disruption to the force they are used to. Many highly experienced police forces throughout the world manage their operations with networks of stations much smaller than our own, look at Scotland, Northern Ireland or London. 213 Garda Cars have been taken out of commission in 2012, replaced by 213 new vehicles at a cost of €4million. Another €5million has been allocated for the purchase of vehicles in 2013, which will add another 200+ to the Garda fleet.

Are you a Garda or do you know any Gardai

You are missing the point. We are not saying the station being open three hours a day will help catch criminals in the act but it gives local people a chance to come and have a chat to the guard on duty, put across any worries or suspicions etc try have to someone they know and trust because they’ve had interaction with them previously. This can never be replaced by a phone all or a Garda car zipping past on the way to another call.

And don’t get me Started on ye state of cars cos I’d be here all night.

@Seamus your showing your ignorance comparing our policing model to that of the forces in Northern Ireland (who have the Brisith Army to support them) or London. You also dont seem to understand the policing model that has served Ireland well since the inception of the state if you are correlating the time that crimes occur with the time that the Garda stations are open. You say that there will be an additional 200 Garda cars added to the fleet but this is incorrect as it does not take into account the many vehicles that will be taken out of commission.

Take it from me a current serving garda that these closures will take safety and security away from the communities effected. Mostly these tiny stations still gave people a calming knowledge that there still was law and order in their small village. The only way for this to work is that them particular Gardai where deployed back into the community on regular patrol, but this will not happen due to transport issues. Figures stated in any policing plans are simply that…figures. There is a scary scary shortage of vehicles in the job, with a lot of cars near to end of life. I havent seen one, ONE new marked patrol car in all of dublin, not one. Where are these cars you talk about??? There is a busy station which I know of that have one patrol cars at one time, and have enough personnell for four out, and this is a regular occurance throughout the country. Between end of life vehicles and crashed vehicles which occur every single day, there won’t be enough bought to replace them, its a simple case of demand and supply where the demand for vehicles greatly outweighs the supply. Trust me there won’t be enough, don’t take the policing plan as salt. Slowly but surely An Garda Siochana is being destroyed

@Tony I’m not showing any ignorance, the British Army has effectively ended their operation in Northern Ireland, the PSNI now work pretty much autonomously. And I’ll say again, all cars retired this year are being replaced by a €4 million investment in Garda vehicles, another allocation of €5 million will further reinforce the Garda fleet with an intake of over 200 more vehicles. Small rural stations have no operational significance, Gardai available to respond to disturbances deter and capture criminals. 160 Gardai will now be freed up with the recent closure of the 3 hour & 1/2 man stations.

Freed up to do what? I feel you don’t understand what a daly duty for a guard is on a daly basis in a rural station. Even in Dublin stations “desk duty” or preparing a file to persecute a criminal is part of the job. Terms like ” desk duty” and ” pen pushing” are made from people who have little understanding of the role a Garda has to do in their job. Everything else is statistics. And you know what they say about them…..

@ Seamus – another ill infoprmed post, your going to be exhausted by the end of the day at this rate. You cannot compare police forces based purely on population and number of serving offciers. Police forces in the countries you detail have a DNA database, ANPR in all vehicles, in car computers (such as Pulse), the ability to cross refence information with the motor tax/vehicle registration databses..we do not have any of these facilities. They use video recordings in interviews instead of having to write everything down by hand, they have a higher percentage of armed officers, many of teh forces have tazers as standard issue and so on.

FF budget allocation was appropriate at the time. The budget for this year was slashed by massive amounts. When in government FF committed to have a force of 16500 (if I remember correctly), now FG relented to the troika and has agreed to cut the force to 13500. I believe numbers are currently around 13850 and look at the events of the last few weeks culminating with the tragic death Garda Donohoe. The mindset of criminals has changed today in that they believe they can do what they like with impunity, knowing that the force is stretched to it’s limits as it is. Cut another 400 Garda and matters will just get worse.

Incidentally Seamus thats a lovely picture of you and Inda at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis in the Convention Centre last March – amazing what you find on Flickr. Ahhh Seamus so young and already towing the party line like a seasoned pro!

I take it Cian that you live in an area where there will be no stations closing

I agree with you to a point Cian but its no good closing down stations if they don’t replace them with a more visible Garda presence in rural Ireland. By that I mean more regular patrols in Garda cars during the day and especially at night. I fear tho that that is not the ministers intention.

It’s called community policing. Gaining local knowledge about the area and people.

@tomeenoldstock With a new roster, enhanced patrol regime and the delivery of 170 Garda vehicles at the start of this year (more throughout the year) some communities should see the Gardai more often that just a station being manned for 3hrs a day.

@seamus

Don’t be fooled by the whole 170 new Garda cars sound bite. They never finish the sentence by admitting that over 300 Garda cars were scrapped last year with approx another 200 to go this year. The figures don’t add up so don’t be expecting to see that extra Garda presence.

@jim melia Can you back up your statement that 300 Garda cars were taken out of service?

The Garda Commissioner estimated that 213 Garda vehicles were taken out of service in 2012. And guess what, €4 million was allocated to purchase 213 Garda cars to replace these.

And there has been €5 million allocated for new Garda vehicles in 2013, which will ensure another 200+ vehicles will be added to the fleet.

Won’t happen Seamus. The numbers just aren’t there to provide a proper service. The numbers retiring out of the Force are huge. There is a massive drain of experience and knowledge. 60 per cent of the Force have less than 10 yrs service. They are tied up in red tape and not let do their jobs due to fear of repercussions. 170 patrol cars will only plug the gap that was created by all the vehicles being scrapped. It’s the case if the little Dutch boy and the dike that sprung a leak. It will only hold for a while until more leaks come. Eventually it will all come crashing down. Be under no illusion, that day is fast approaching. There are stations in this country where there isn’t money for photocopy toner, paper! There is a well known line in the Gardai that every one of them use on a daily basis and it goes like this ” The job is f@@ked!”

@Ger Harrington, There are now 13’430 Gardai, sufficient numbers available to provide a competent police service. We compare favourably to other nations of similar size in the police to population ratio, eg New Zealand, Austria, Germany, Sweden. There are 213 new Garda vehicles being brought into the force at present, with €5 million allocated for another 200+ vehicles in 2013.

I agree in the terms of red tape, Gardai need to be on the beat or patrol and not stuck at a desk doing paper work. This though is a problem that won’t be solved easily, every changing laws and personal lawsuits are making Gardai ever more cautious.

I would love to know what and why everyone thinks ” desk duty ” is and why it’s a bad thing. Would it include taking a statement from a victim of crime? Signing a passport for someone in a station. Processing applications, talking to someone who calls to the station with information, or even being involved in local schools program’s ect.
The fact is that a Garda driving around and past you is not policing. It’s a guards job to be in the community interacting with it. Not driving 100 miles in a patrol car every day. If you feel a “fire service” police service is the way to go, ie. the guards only calls when you have been a victim if crime then close more stations and never see a guard in some of the rural streets of our towns.

Excellent point Darren

@Darren, you’re contradicting yourself. A Gardai does need to be in the community, I agree with you. But not sitting in a building for 3 hours. Criminals are not deterred by bricks and mortar, they will be deterred if they see a Garda car partroling an area they are looking to do their dirty deeds. Community policing will be maintained, Gardai can still interact with the local community and engage in school interaction programs.

Cian… I agree with you. The city I’m from in the US had to also close a number of police stations. People where outraged until the city government and police commissioners shared their plan with us.

The plan was Community Oriented Policing. Which required using technology to place more police in the field and out of the office. More police on foot than in police cars. And pushing proactive policing as opposed to reactive policing. Encouraging police officers to build a relationship with everyone in their working community.

This proved to be very successful. Crime went down significantly. The program was a success.

As a result, many cities in the US use this strategy to police. Ireland is much smaller… Why can’t we do the same?

Criminals are not bothered with bricks and mortar Garda stations because that’s the last place they want to be eg. In the cell. However the 80 year old living in the town is very happy to see those same bricks and mortar there. It’s a place the community can Call and provide information to and from the guards on crime prevention ect. Policing. No one needs a Garda until they need an Garda if your nearest station is 30 miles away.
The term community policing is a nonsense term invented by an Assistant commissioner in the 1970s in a report. Everything a guard does in rural communities is so called community policing. Its like terms now being used such as “smarter policing”. Again people who use this term shows little know late of how and what gardai do in rural communities.

They don’t have the transport to patrol country areas, simple as that. It’s horrendous but true, scary times for the isolated elderly people. Even if something does happen the response time will be much greater than before

Darren… I see you are very passionate about this issue. However, having an open mind would be helpful. I truly understand your concern. However, the Broken Window Theory which evolved into Community Oriented Policing has been quite successful arround the world. Why can’t we do it here?

Seamus there were a lot more Garda cars scraped than replaced. Garda stations that are open for 2/3 hours a day give locals piece of mind and the Garda that opened it are still in the area patrolling. Now they are all going into bigger towns.
Pre election Kenny/Shatter said we needed 14000+ Gardai across 4 working units. Now we have 12500 across 5 working units. His maths don’t add up saying that the Gardai are well resourced

O I agree, I think there are many factors that other policing agencies use that would be helpful in Ireland. Unfortunately in e times we are in finance for new computer systems , ANPR cameras systems, in car pulse systems are just not going to happen any time soon. My point is that you can call a style of policing anything you want, if you can’t find a Garda when you need one that’s all you got.

I see your a student of the “broken window” theory. This was an urban study,not sure it directly applies to the rural policing situation but I take your point. The theory has much more to do with the successful Co operation Between the police and the urban community area. Improved pride in an area with improved policing strategies.i agree it’s a good basis for comparison, however it does require the police in e community. Hard to see how closing rural stations in Ireland will achieve this. I’m not totally against stations closing but so long as its with agreement of the people living in the area.

Dareen.. How refreshing…. You appear to be up on C.O.P. and The Broken Window Theory…. Awesome! However. .. I am of two minds. One… People never chose to do without or except change easily. Therefore, leaving it up to people in their communities to decide if a station closes isn’t viable. Especially, if the station is little used or it’s there for peace of mind. On the other side of this… I have very little faith in the powers that run this country. It doesn’t matter the political party. Follow through is never successful. And most haven’t a clue about altruistic motivation s and actions.

@Marlon – we already have community based policing here. The model the Garda are propsong we move to is ‘the response’ model, which works like this: a citizen observes something requiring police action, or personally requires assistance and telephones the police. The police officer takes the call and after noting the particulars, radios the nearest patrol vehicle. On arrival at the scene the police take whatever action is necessary, such as making an arrest, rendering medical assistance or starting investigations.
The policeman then makes out a report and sends it to a detective and resumes patrol.The policeman has little or no interaction with this community and does not know anyone, nor is he known to many people in the community. The original objective of the response policing model was to catch the perpetrator in the act of committing the crime. Studies have shown that this ideal situation rarely happens due to delay in the call being made; time spent processing the call and difficulties discovering and getting to the location.

I agree there is little chance of local people agreeing on closing their Garda station, also it’s easer for the government to make changes that effect the macro policing situation without or with little input from these communities. The problem is reducing service must be replaced with effective change not just closing the stations. I feel that the economic condition of the country is not going to allow this to happen.. In the end we are where we are……

When the guard is removed from the local community and put into a big town 20 miles away, the chances of him/her or their colleagues going patrolling in that community are very slim. Whilst in the big town the local issues there will be enough to contend with. All big towns are undermanned at the moment so saying time will be given to Guards in these areas to still be a prescence in the rural community is untrue. There will most likely be one patrol car so leaving the busy area is not going to be possible. Also all the numbers given out by the government in relation to Gardai includes reserve Gardai who are unable to work alone sign or stamp forms or do anything of use. It’s like having somebody on work experience. Rural Ireland has been badly let down by this government.

Darren… Sound!

Aidan…. I don’t know what you expect. Rural communities will always be forgotten in the mix of politics. It doesn’t matter which party is governing Ireland. The only way rural communities will have more say is to restructure how our government works. Unfortunately, our politicians will never truly put the needs of the people before their own. Sorry… Sad fact!

A station in a rural area is manned 24 hours a day 365 days a year. It is opened for a short time during the day to give locals a chance to get any forms signed or stamped. It saves them having to drive miles to the district head quarters. The other 21 hours provides time for the patrol car to patrol the vast areas in country sub-districts. I am from rural Ireland but work in a city. I know what the effects will be. I’m sick and tired of people thinking that gardai babysit empty buildings. It’s not true. #cian there won’t be another 98 gardai. It’s the same amount of gardai only further away from where they need to be.

Jonathan… Can you pick up forms and get them signed at the post office? That is if they gave Post Masters this ability?

I wasn’t aware that Dundalk had new patrol cars until yesterday!

@Marlon – perhaps they could do some functions there but unfortunately most rural post offices are already closed.

We now know from minister that 213 new vehicles were supplied….. As against approx 360 that were withdrawn. Nett loss of approx 150. And in total down approx 350 to 400 vehicles on 2009 fleet figures

Garda managements figures stated approx 1 vehicle per day was withdrawn from service. The only mention of 213 vehicles is the number supplied in 2012. Initially only 80 vehicles were announced for supply in 2012 but the minister then announced there would be an additional 150 supplied by end of 2012 and start of 2013. So another 133 came online by year end to make 213…..
We are told the force had 2,814 vehicles in 2009 and management estimates to end of 2012 would have been 2,238 except for the additional burst at year end….. The Garda siochana is still approx 400 vehicles short of 2009 figures…

Care to elaborate, Cian?

Well here’s hoping that you don’t need the Garda…. Even in your three hour window!

Helicopter doesn’t go up in windy/rainy/foggy conditions, how often would you say that is in Ireland?

If the helicopter has to go to the west/north/south of Ireland it has to stop to refuel after 20mins or so having reached its destination and then can only stay up for another 30-40 mins.

Nothing can outstrip on the ground policing and don’t believe anything else.

@arbitrasure – think you have overdosed on the CSI Miami’s

A garda station in a sparsely populated area should be mobile , it should be out and about talking to business and the community , it should adopt best ways to protect suvh as the recently sucessful text lines . It should take advantage if the tremendous good will it enjoys from the people.
Although this is a fihancial move we should take advsntage of it and not have s document s4amping service in ancient ric barracks

Stepasdie Garda Station has 34 officers and covers a popiulation of 20000 people, the district includes Sandyford Ind Est, three shopping Centers and stretches into the foothills of the Wicklow mountains covering areas such as Glencullen and Kilternan. No hysteria here thanks O’Reilly

So how far away is your new local station Tony?

We dont know yet O’Reilly as we have been advised by Snr officers from District HQ that Dundrum and Blackrock cannot facilitate the 34 Gardai who currently police the area…will be sure to get back to you though as soon as Mr Shatter has figured it out. The Gardai currently based in Dundrum will still only be pollicing the district that station currently covers…but incidentally its about 25 minutes drive from Dundrum to Glencullen provided Dundrum Town Centre hasnt created its usual weekend gridlock.