Typical politician, hard to get a straight answer out of him.

PLEASE!
Give us a break on this topic.
It’s wearing thin.

Sorry all. No. Intentional pun intended, I simply meant he must have an opinion but is not willing to rock the boat.

A referendum would be a waste of time,there would be no debate at all

In my view, there should be many debates on the subject. I believe wholeheartedly that everyone has the right to live their lives, as long as it is in a proper, legal way. It took long enough for homosexuality to be legalized in this country, same sex marriages and rights of those couples and their children should be legalized asap.

Unfortunately, there are many in this country that have not moved on and accepted the times we live in now. There will always be hetrosexual human beings, but there will also be homosexuals as there have been since time began. The electorate that may be bias, have closed minds, refused to believe that homosexuality is real, need time to accept and understand more about others lives and beliefs.

Then, have the referendum. If there was to be a referendum now, it would probably, not be passed because many are forced and brainwashed into believing that it’s wrong, due to their religious beliefs etc.

Finally a referendum I can vote YES in!!

We haven’ had that pleasure since the divorce referendum in the 90s. And, oddly, the sky didn’t fall in then either.

Exactly. And if gay people prove to be nothing but uniformly perfect parents – irrespective of the general standards of (heterosexual) parenting – it will be used as a stick with which to beat them, Why must gay people be held to a higher standard than the rest of us?

Totally agree! It’s weak…

I hear ya but I was merely trying to point out that Brian Hayes comment demonstrates the priority Gay marriage has in the Govt…no personal rights issues whether it be for Gay marriage, children’s rights ever seem to be important enough to our Governments. I know it’s repetitive but it’s also reality…

Dead right Eimear. Certain kinds of people wished for delays in black rights and women’s rights too. It was always a case of, ‘that comes later’.

With rights issues, the time must always be NOW.

Also, Initially I was very surprised to see this topic on the table for the constitutional convention but it is a compromise solution that suits both parties best. Labour can claim that if (and when) marriage equality becomes reality that they have been ‘building on public support’ blah blah blah and those in FG who oppose it can say, ‘its not up to us, its the will of the people’.

I do think though that IF the convention recommends a constitutional amendment (or says that that only the Civil Registration act needs to be changed) marriage equality will become a reality. Those who oppose it are increasingly being painted as fanatical and the structure of the constitutional convention will cement this. When thinking of the types of groups who will make public submissions, slick well funded groups such as GLEN and such versus the holy joe shower and Ronan Mullen, who will win the battle for hearts and minds?

If it does come to a referendum it wont be like Divorce in 95 because every party currently in the Dail will have an official line supporting the amendment meaning the opposition will increasingly be isolated and left looking like uncaring fundies.

If Enda opposes its in his best interests to keep stchum.

You’re right about the Supreme Court never ruling on the issue I think. A case is waiting to be heard that would address the issue somewhat through, but who knows how long that will take. The problem seems to be that the courts have assumed “family” as per the constitution to mean only traditional families and as such it offers no rights (or responsibilities) to families who do not fit.

I think if it went to a referendum it would be a lot more civil here than elsewhere. All parties in the Dail are either in favour or their members have voted in favour of supporting same-sex marriage in the past year or two.

For goodness sake you use any subject to bash the government! I for one dont want or expect the leader of the country to have to comment on every issue off the cuff.

@ Mcbab

I know, it’s crazy. Some folks even expect him to debate issues of national importance on TV. Now why would a Taoiseach do a thing like that?

Guess what mcbab. Kenny is Gay Irish peoples Taoiseach as well. They have a right to know his position on a issue that is so important to them.

@ TooTrueLeft, I misread that.. I thought you were outing him lol!

It’s Sunday. You know where he is.

You’re right Eoghain!

@ PJ

Get up off your knees.

FG don’t want to loose the big chunk of catholic die hard voters, spineless, weak and pathetic. Either he is for it or against. Again his silence speaks volumes as to the small little man he is. At least PJ above has an opinion, Enda has nothing but fluff between his ears!! No problems on a referendum on a treaty to Europe but not ok for the people of Ireland who are gay!?! I’m so over FG, shamed I voted for them!!!

Finally, Enda and Lucinda can bond over something: an ill-defined prejudice against same-sex marriage.

What is the delay with Enda giving his opinion , and WHY WHY WHY is there always some one else defending his stance on various issues??? This time it is Hayes…Has his advisers not told him what to say yet ??? He is Taoiseach for goodness sake !!!
BTW I am in favor of same sex marriage . Live and let live and all that.

It took Obama 4 years to reach a decision. Gilmore only announced his support last week, after 5 years as Labour leader and more than 1 year as Tanaiste. So silence doesn’t really speak volumes.

To be fair to the man, and I am by no means a fan, he did make that statement about the Church.

Doubtless he received a bit of a backlash (from many of the same people who would give him grief if he were to show support on this), perhaps it scared him a little.. It’s the last thing he said that sounded like it came from a person with a skeletal system I can remember him saying..

The Church statement was great, I guess some of us hoped he wouldn’t reduce his entire term ad the nations leader to 1 speech.

You answered your own question with a very important (rhetorical) question: “why must we fight for the simplest thing?” I’ve watched my son get weary with that question ever since he came out. Hopefully the need to fight so hard will diminish and the rest of the world will start acting with respect.

Just as well: your cat is not in a position to either accept or reject your proposal or marriage. Thank you for so helpfully shooting down the old “well if gays can marry, why can’t I marry my cat/dog/sheep/inflate-a-date?” nonsense.

Jeez, we’re talking about marriage here, not bringing kids along while pulling tricks.

propaganda. this is a sad story but not a balanced one. i know a same sex couple and this story does not reflect them or their family. the church are against it so of course they’ll come up with negative stories. if a family have loving parents should gender.

…. should gender matter.

Reminds me of the priests coming in to school when I was 8 years old telling us if the divorce referendum was passed, we would “have no mummies and daddies”. The church always did a good line in fear and using innocent children to further their moral agenda.

@ Mick Kenny
Gender does matter if you accept the complementary of the sexes in marriage. Does a mother have a role? Does a father have a role? Does a child have a right to both?
@ Dave. One in three now born outside of wedlock, we’re they righ?

What a load of sh*t. There are married catholic mothers who bring their kids along while turning tricks and married catholic fathers who sexually abuse their kids.
Let’s just ban marriage and be done with it.

@ sully pj. Children need stable loving parents. There are plenty of families with single parents or gay families etc that are more stable that some with straight couples. Lets stop the stereotyping.

I bet you wish that had been published in a reputable newspaper of record rather than on a catholic propaganda website, eh? This is no more than an attempt to spread the lie that gay people make bad parents based on a single life story now being told by someone who is now christian. Wake up Paddy, kids are being taken from delinquent straight parents by the courts every day if the week. Some people make bad parents – we already knew that. Shouldn’t you be at mass?

What are your thoughts on single parent families then PJ……?nnGenuinly Interested

That father was a bad, irresponsible father. The fact of his sexual orientation is neither here nor there. The production of this story in *this* thread would seem to imply that Paddy believes that is the way *all* gay people behave. Talk about exposing your poorly-informed prejudice? I really feel for that woman but t hat is an extreme case. It’s like using Myra Hindley as a case against blonde babysitters.

I’m sure you could throw up similar reports about “normal” families Paddy, or families of a certain ethnicity etc. If we follow your logic all the way here all marriage should be banned as bad things can happen in all types of marriages if the wrong people are involved…

Now go back to your Catholic Comment talking point notes :)

You still live in the old Catholic Ireland. Religion doesn’t play part in this country anymore. It’s time to move on

Nothing like a litlle unbiased input is there, Paddy Scully.

Is this you by any chance?

http://www.catholiccomment.ie/speakers/

Just to clarify, I made it clear I do not believe the case in point applies to all. There are many great gay people at mass every Sunday. And many gay and other single persons, do great work within the church. But these are not simple issues, and the data referenced in the links at the end of the article from scientific studies, make it clear that the best place for children to be raised is “with their biological parents in a low conflict marriage”. There are many who unfortunately find themselves in other non ideal situations and that is understandable, but to deliberately redefine marriage and make a new undesirable situation for children, is neglect.
I support next of Kin rights for gay couples, but that is the boundary. I for one do not wish to redefine marriage. Thank God we have a constitution.

It is not redefining marriage: it is extending it to all citizens. The rights and responsibilities of parents remain unchanged. The marriages of married people remain unchanged. The same-sex couples who have children – and there are many such couples – would then have the legal positions of their children protected and those children would legal access to support from *both* parents. Low-conflict marriage is not the same as opposite-sex marriage. How many of us know married straight couples a each other’s throats? You are a a regular commentator here, determined to undermine any attempt to extend the right of civil marriage to same-sex couples; you regularly say that it would be redefining marriage to the detriment of the institution without ever articulating HOW it would be detrimental. Stopping sax sex couple from marrying will not stop – and has not yet stopped them from becoming parents. So your arguments are all completely hollow.

Damn the lack of an “edit my post” button, Journal. That should read “same sex” not “sax sex.” No disrespect to those fanciers of brass instruments, though. ;-)

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force form your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Yep, seems legit…

Paddy: “I support next of Kin rights for gay couples, but that is the boundary. ”

Actually Paddy, what you are supporting is discrimination based on sexual orientation, and that is unlawful in this country, despite your churches best efforts to treat gay people the way they treat women, as second class citizens.

@ Paddy Scully,

As I said above, people have a right to live their lives, nobody has a right to judge others. As long as all live by the law of the land, nobody should judge others.

There are people that are heterosexual, like myself, married, separated, divorced, have two wonderful grown up children. They are quite normal people! May get married, have children, may not. But I will support them in every way possible, because they are good people, work hard, study hard, and are there for others in society. They may be gay, they may not, but I would hope that some day if they fall in love and eventually would love to have children, to rear them in a happy, peaceful environment like they had, I would hope that if they cannot have children naturally, but still have the desire to give life to another human being, that they can adopt and rear, educate that child to the best of their ability.

Homosexuality is real, just like heterosexuality and it’s not going away.

Paddy, the article is about gay marriage. Unable to come up with any reasonable arguments against gay marriage, you’re instead turning to arguments against gay adoption – arguments which themselves don’t even stand up. Lets stick to the issue here. Without resorting to “slippery slope” arguments, can you point to any unbiased evidence of negative outcomes connected with gay marriage at all? Maybe from countries who have had it for a few years already? If you can find any which couldn’t be equally used against straight marriage, It will be the first time any of us have heard them.

This is all academic anyway because gay marriage will be introduced sooner or later. In 2011 and 2012, two separate opinion polls (Sunday Times and Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform respectively, both carried out by RED C) found 73% of voters favoured full gay marriage.

@ Scully pj

There are couples worldwide that are heterosexual, that hate every day living under the same roof, that fight and are verbally violent in front of their suffering children. Some of these catholics are having affairs and ‘both’ know it’s going on! Those children will grow up thinking ‘is this what adult life is about’? No! it’s not. Yes, I know families in these situations. There are families, like my own that have two wonderful grown up children, where their parents separated, divorced when they were small children.

We did not want them thinking ‘that that is what adult/married life is about’! They were and are loved by both parents, in two homes, are well educated, well developed young adults. Yes, a child has a right to both, father and mother, but sometimes that is not possible, but in many cases there is a father or mother figure in their lives eg. uncle, Grandad, older cousin, close male/female friend of the family.

To me, many are brainwashed in society so much that they do actually believe that they are right and the religion they follow are right. Well, sorry ‘Scully pj’ I’m afraid, but I have to burst that bubble you live in. Try living in the real world, you’ll find that you actually might enjoy it and be a happier, non judgemental human being.

Of course it’s a catholic website they’re obviously not going to agree. Backwards!

@ Too Trueleft
This is not discrimination you and I have exactly the same rights. I am not allowed to marry a man. Treatment of women is a different issue.
@ Sheila Byrne
Sheila I’m not disputing the reality of gay persons. And I’m not judging gay persons, and I’m sure you love and support your children, come what may. So would I, but I do not wish to change society’s view of and role for marriage.
@ Mark Downes
Well mark, the slippery slope is well evidenced. The only reason we don’t have gay adoption here is because of the definition of marriage in the constitution. In England the adoption has preceded the right to marry and as a result the catholic adoption societies have closed down. If marriage is redefined here the stop on adoption is gone.
@ Old Nokia Charger
Scorn on contempt are a privileged badge. Was that not Christs lot on earth.

Regurgitating the same weak talking points that get torn apart every sunday morning on american panel discussion TV?

Tisk tisk Paddy, are you the finest your little bible thumping group has to offer?

That case is as much evidence against same sex parenting as Josef Fritzl is against opposite sex parenting.

There are plenty of children of LGBT families who had amazingly positive upbringings and were in no way prejudiced (except by the state) as a result of having LGBT parents. Here is a particularly eloquent example – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSQQK2Vuf9Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The studies referred to at the foot of the article are not evidence of the inferiority of same sex parenting. One casts doubts on the methodology used in previous studies. That study doesn’t actually reach or suggest any conclusions on the efficacy of same sex parenting.

The second study has been heavily criticised due to a flawed methodology. It doesn’t compare stable same sex parent homes with stable opposite sex homes. The questionnaire was set up on such a way that it really compared broken homes with one or more parents who had a same sex relationship with stable heterosexual homes (broken heterosexual homes or those which involved heterosexual affairs were excluded). So really, the study is evidence only for the fact that broken homes are worse than stable homes.

Read more here – http://mobile.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/06/new_family_structures_study_is_gay_parenthood_bad_or_is_gay_marriage_good_.html

Paddy, I see you are taking on the adoption issue now with more tired arguments. Nobody is looking for a “right” to adopt. No person or couple, gay or straight, has such a right. Same-sex couples are simply hoping to be eligible for consideration when it comes to adopting. They will be put through the exact same process other couples and individuals are put through in terms of background checks, interviews about their lifestyle etc. The child will only be adopted if it is deemed in the best interest of that child.

Please stop scaremongering.

@ Too Trueleft
Ah, so when you believe your points have no validity you adopt the Dawkins approach. Insult them, ridicule them, and hope they will stop commenting. By the way, I know there are many better arguments than I am likely to be able to conceive.

Bit of a pot-and-kettle scenario there, Paddy. You’re fairly prone to dismissiveness yourself when it suits you. Your production of lame, hole-riddled arguments doesn’t exactly bolster your case for high-moral-ground membership.

Paddy, the whole “gay people can marry members of the opposite sex just like straight people, therefore they aren’t being discriminated against” is so ridiculous and devoid of any credibility that you are insulting the intelligence of the people you put it to.

You have posted many times here on this subject, and despite being an ‘expert’ on the subject, you are continually torn a new one by dozens of people on the forum as you cannot put forward a single credible argument on the matter.

Answer this. How are two people you don’t know and never met before getting married going to affect your marriage?

So the short answer to my question is “no”. You can’t point to any unbiased evidence of negative outcomes connected with gay marriage. Glad we’ve cleared that up.

“If marriage is redefined the stop on adoption is gone” – Really? Excellent! Roll on marriage redefinition so – there was I, thinking marriage equality was only half the battle.

Back to 1952 with ya Paddy. Just look where that got the Catholic Church!?!
Part of me believes that smug shot Kenny loves his religion too, so no surprises there then with him not been able to answer for himself.
Spineless always comes to mind!!

It is the real experience of a child reared in an environment where gayness ruled over other responsibilities.
I’m catholic, and proud of it.

What about the experience of a child beaten up by his straight father? Is the solution to that to ban straight marriage too?

Take your fear elsewhere. This country rejects it.

@scully Pj that article is painted one sided.. All gays are not like her father it makes look we are sex crazed, idiotic, crazy, etc.. I live in Canada and yes I know gay couples who are in open relationships (no children by them) and have seen gay couples who have been with each other for many years. (with children) straight couples do the same things as wrong people.

I’d say that article has as much truth as the bible!

It’ll be a cold day in hell before any backward catholic propaganda site is in a position to make pronouncements on the welfare of children.

@ Scully PJ if one case documented by a catholic website (clearly a biased source) is enough in your mind to prevent equal right to gay couples, then would you not agree that the thousands of cases of wrong doings by the catholic church on innocent people is enough for to ban that religion and practice of it from this country?

You may be proud to be catholic but maybe you are only selecting certain parts and not looking at everything the catholic church has done and stood for. If we all followed their teachings blindly, we would still believe the universe revolved around earth, the world is flat, and that the world was created in 7 days with only two humans to start us off. Are you against incest by the way (I am assuming Adam and Eves kids didn’t have much of a dating scene)

So, PJ, if I’m right, you decry the tarring of all priests as pedophiles and yet you use this one article to defame the ENTIRE notion of GCBT parenting? As horrific as this case is, it is an isolated story of a woman who was raised by an appalling parent. Don’t forget the myriad heartbreaking stories of children raised by equally appalling heterosexual parents. Shame on you.

Sad story, but to believe that all gay people are like this is hogwash! To be “objective”, the catholic church likes to push the negative views of gay people as it distracts from their sexually frustrated priests/bishops who go around the place protecting pedofiles !! Gays are an easy target for the church because the concept plays on the minds of people. As always the church just persecutes people like they have done for centuries – thank God they don’t burn gays at the stake any more.
I know plenty of gay people, including ourselves, who would make great parents – my concern is bringing kids up in the catholic faith which is built on deceit, discrimination and prejudice. How can the corrupt members of this faith even presume to be able to teach morality !!

@scully pj your a bigoted bible basher. I

Paddy, if you’re logic is that gay marriage must be avoided at all costs due the experience of the child in your article, then by extension of that very same logic shouldn’t the catholic church be avoided at all costs due to the experience of countless thousands of children who were raped and buggered by pedophile priests?

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force form your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Yep, seems legit.

@Scully Pj

So what’s your view on the two ladies from Wicklow that are gay, have two natural sons, both educated to 3rd level, are healthy, happy and are heterosexual? Explain that. Those two ladies are loving parents, have thought those young men right from wrong in life. Have thought both of them not to judge others.

People are born homosexual. It is in their body and soul. It’s the way they were formed in their Mother’s womb. No different to a child that is born with four limbs, ten toes, fingers, or three limbs, maybe no eyes, downs syndrome, etc. etc. People that are homosexual don’t choose to be homosexual. Their young lives can and are sometimes difficult. It can take years for them to accept themselves for whom they are, when they do, they realise that they are no different to any other human being on this earth and they live, and learn just like me and everyone else that has been given life and are on loan on this earth.

I’m catholic, and proud of it.

Anyone who says that and means it richly deserves the scorn and contempt that will inevitably follow.

@ONC, I don’t agree at all. Being Catholic and being for equality are not mutually exclusive. One of my best friends is a very devout Catholic and still tolerant and accepting of others. Also, a recent poll showed the majority of Irish Catholics did not agree with the Church teachings on sexuality.

It’s sad to see people hide behind their faith and use it as a shield against reason on these topics.

@ Paddy Scully – would you mind going away somewhere, anywhere, like Fox News or the likes… you could probably catch a ride on Noah’s Ark if you’re quick

I think I get it people, PJ and his church buddies are afraid to allow same sex marriages and adoptions in case they put heterosexual marriage and parenting to shame!

And wasn’t all the anti homosexuality stuff in the Old Testament? I would find it hard to believe a man preaching peace and love who spent all of his time with 12 blokes, had an especially close relationship with one and was adamant that people didn’t judge one another would have been too big on denying people the right to have their love recognised..