We’re working on getting you an answer for that…

Are you ringing the attorney general Gavan? Think someone should. I elect you.

http://www.thejournal.ie/will-ireland-need-to-hold-a-referendum-over-eu-fiscal-plan-300704-Dec2011/

Wasn’t it a question of the Lisbon treaty at the time that we wouldn’t have a vote on future treaty changes and we were told in no uncertain terms that we would?
Wasn’t it one of the original stumbling blocks along with neutrality and corpo tax?

No Dermot, you’re certainly not the only one. Things seem confusing at the moment (for me anyway) with regard to immediate actions to be taken to offset the most pressing issues.

If they can do something outside of a treaty change then it will be a quick change but if not then a treaty change would indeed take too long. I already noticed that the Financial Times raised the problem of how the Commission could over see or enforce etc anything outside of the treaties since the Commission is not empowered to do so (everything done by them starts with “With regard to the Treaty…. [insert treaty name] etc).

But I think things will be clearer on these questions later today.

Bang on, they are looking at what should have been done ten years ago, or what should be down post crisis. Treaty changes are nice to consider, when you are so impotent and clueless, so overwhelmed by the scale of the crisis that you can’t contemplate dealing with it.

The EU has soured for an awful lot of people across Europe. The MEPS in 2014 will have many many Euroskeptics among them, not that the EU Parl. has any power.

No , you are not the only one that sees this as a HUGE mistake. The thing is that none of them will admit outright that euro failure is imminent. I am totally bewildered by their lack of assurances . It is like waiting for the imminent death of a loved one to be confirmed ….

I did – brain fail on my part. Amended now, thanks for spotting it.

We put it to the people.

It is being said that this treaty needs to be in place before the ECB will agree to start the printing presses. It is pretty clear that the ECB doesn’t want to print money to pay off a load of countries debts until those countries become capable of governing themselves within their means.
It’s fairly sensible of the ECB in terms of the long term viability of the euro.. Just so long as the short term doesn’t kill the euro first.
Fiscal correction short term, Monetary correction long term. Or at least that’s the idea.
.

I don’t think it matters. After all our money effectively exists in electronic format!

What if you were to buy physical notes

Both are little better than the Euro. If you want to hold value, stay away from them, go to the Norwegian Kronar, Aussie Dollar and Canadian Loonie. All low debt, wealthy countries with massive commodities. Physical assets are as always the ultimate store of wealth.

Britain is a failing economy in its own right, Sterling is a better bet than the Euro but it has very significant problems itself and it is a poorly run country. The same applies with America and the dollar, these problems have been building up since the 80′s and the cut tax, raise spending and encourage borrowing Govt’s came in .

I’d agree with that.
Avoid sterling and US dollar.
In addition, I’d be wary of banks as many are in a precarious situation. (4 Australian banks downgraded recently).
Precious metals would be your best bet.
Attached article may offer some insight.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article10248.html

Gold trading accelerating.
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-09/gold-traders-most-bullish-in-a-month-on-european-debt-crisis-commodities.html

In the event of a Euro collapse we’re probably into a major world recession for a few years because the fallout will be massive. In times like that commodities or metals tend to be the best option.

Some safe haven currencies may appreciate such as the Swiss Franc. A new German Mark if all the countries in the EU went their own way or a new core Euro would probably also appreciate assuming there were only a few countries left in it. However you’d be unable to get in on that early. As a whole the UK and the US are in as bad a mess as Europe (if not even a worse mess financially). However the focus in now on the Euro becuase of its structural deficiencies.

The question has to be asked, is it better to risk the breakup or to put in place the tighter structure that should have always been there in the first event? I would suggest that for all their pushing, the markets don’t want a Euro breakup. They probably would live with the withdrawal of a few countries although that also creates the potential for major shocks as well so they would probably choose the fiscal union path if they were allowed to make the decision.

A final question that always strikes me about the “loss of sovereignty” issue. Most people are hugely critical of our local politicians and their lack of skill to manage our economy sucessfully. Yet at the same time most people also don’t want to surrender any more sovereignty to Europe. So which do we think is the least worse option in the longer term?

Dermot, I suspect the market would prefer the two tier Europe solution especially if its means some sort of fiscal plan is put in place for the Eurozone. However, the devil may be in the detail of that plan.
But the markets want the Eurozone countries to sort out their debt problems and really the only way that can be done is by ECB intervention. And ECB intervention will only happen if we have some form of revised fiscal policy put in place to placate the Germans.

Bring your own pen Herr Kenny, we’re not paying for you to use our ink.

Why did I read that in a Gay Byrne accent?

It wasn’t London or Wall Street that caused our problems, it was German and French banks lending like there was no tomorrow to other eurozone countries since the formation of the euro. At least Cameron looks after his own, unlike Herr Kenny

Not exactly true Richard. It was a combination of all those events to be honest. The US sub-prime shock was what really started the whole crisis, along with the collapse of Lehman Brothers. If you look at the timeline European debt didn’t come into the equation until well after that event.

All i am saying is all the debt orginated from the tax havens of the corporation of London and Wall Street. They have the most to gain or lose from this.

Fully agree with you this time Jim Walsh. See I do read the posts. It was a concoction of many factors. But still can’t see every country in europe adhering to same fiscal plan. Too many economies. Still think we should be looking for a way out. The powerful countries will still set the pace as has been the case and it won’t necessarily suit us.