Fianna Fail claim they’re “pro-choice” only to oppose suicide as grounds for abortion. Anyone see the catch?

This apparently won’t be seen by the average layperson.

*their supporters

Link to FF “claiming to be pro-choice”?

In the UK what started as abortion for conditions incompatible with life ended up with aborting babies for having a cleft palate

So what’s wrong with asking; where do you draw the line?

That’s a simple one, if the baby can’t live outside the womb the parents should have the option to terminate the pregnancy. Forcing a woman to carry a child, feel it moving inside her , see it on ultrasounds all the while knowing that the child they carry to term will die is cruel.

I whole heartedly support terminations for medical reasons (TMR), however, I can see the complication of ‘where to draw the line’ in terms of legislation.

I’ve read a number of the stories on the TMR facebook page (and think people whould have a read of this to just understand how complicated and hearbreaking this side of the debate is). Of the stories I’ve read, which by all means isn’t all of them, I only recall one mentioning 0 chance the pregnancy going to term, or any survival outside the womb. Most seem to be *if* the pregnancy carries to term (for which the odds are usually low) the baby will live for a matter of hours or potentially days – often in significant pain. Can’t stress enough how much I support the choices of the couples in these situations (including those that choose to continue the pregnancy for as long as nature intends) – but it seems to me, to write legislation you’d have to put a factor of hours/days/weeks/months(?) and maybe a probability of how long the child would last outside the womb.

Now, I’m not medically or legally trained, so am happy to be corrected, but I have serious concerns that ‘no chance of survival outside the womb’ means if there is a chance the baby would surivive for even a minute, the couple would still have to travel to England for a termination – and I’m not sure that’s the intention of the 80-odd% who support TMR in the poll

Conversely, being too liberal in this definition could lead to scenarios where there is a suspicion of a disease that would shorten the child’s life to a number of years (whether its 1 or 10). If that was put to the polls, I’d expect siginificantly less support for this matter – especially if such a diagnosis came after 20 or so weeks.

don’t agree with anything else MM said – but I have been toying with that particular question since I came to understand what TMR is

Sally, Everyone should be entitled to live their life if it is 9 months or 80 years. Surely we should kill disabled babies but treat them with love and compassion like in this beautiful story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdrLKGmM-pc

abortion is never a solution to suicide , its already been established by world renowned Psychiatrists that abortion is never ever a way of solving the risk of suicide , most people in Ireland are against abortion including abortion on the grounds of suicide , the only people looking for the are the anti life / pro abortionists many of whom dont yet live in Ireland but are eager to establish their industry and have trolls policing the irish forums

FF have NEVER claimed to be pro-choice! They’re the ones who refused to legislate for the X Case as they’ve been in Government for the vast majority of time since the judgment was handed down. They’re also the ones who held 2 referenda to try and remove suicide as a ground for seeking an abortion. I sometimes wonder why FG are considered the most conservative in Ireland when they have FF giving them a very good run for their money. And the biggest joke is that they sit with the liberals in the European Parliament.

The zygotes aren’t babies until they’re bigger and more homonid, apparently. :l

FF are apparently playing the political football to attract the neo-cons from Fine Gael. Politicians…

Yes Orly, that’s entirely in line with the ruling of the Supreme Court that life begins at implantation

An embryo can be kept in that state indefinitely, it’s not growing and changing every day like every human does from foetal stage to death

I’d say the morning after pill IS a good thing if you’ve been raped

Morning after pill does what it says on the tin… After that it immediately looses its effectiveness.
You’re making 2 massive assumptions there Chuck:
1) that the victim of rape is already taking the MAP.
2) that the victim of rape reports the crime on time for the MAP to be effective, if at all.
add to that, if you were raped the last thing on your mind is oh jeez I better get to the chemist for the pill.
But if course, if you were a victim of rape Chuck, you’d know that.

You must be a great nurse if you think you can only take the morning after pill the morning after. It’s dangerous for someone in your position to be giving out false information.

No disrespect intended JA, I didn’t give false info in that comment.
the morning after pill isn’t guaranteed to work when it’s used as intended. Push the boundaries and its efficiency drops.

You make it sound like it won’t work though.

Where did I say that? Did it dawn on you at all that I might, just might have an iota of what it is I’m talking about?
It’s medicine, find me a dead cert, sure thing and I’ll bet my mortgage on it. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing guaranteed to work in medicine, even when it’s done properly, never mind when you add the biggest reason for failure: human error. It’s got a lot to be responsible for.
Discussion closed JA, regards.

I don’t believe anyone thinks any medicine is 100% effective. You made it sound like it has very little change of working when they still work up to five days. You’re right discussion closed.

The typical failure rate of EC:
Perfect use: (day 1) <1%.
Typical use:
Day 1: 11%
Day 2: 17%
Day 3: 26%
Day 4: 47%
Day 5: 53%.
If you're a victim of rape you would not be inspired by those figures.

I think all rape victims would still take them odds even on day 5. You’re nearly starting to sound like they’re a bad thing.

And I don’t think medical professionals should be quoting figures from Wikipedia and just inverting them.

There is no anaesthetist on the planet who would anaesthetise a patient for a surgery where the chance that they wake up at the other end is 47%. None.
EC is a good thing, but it’s not the only show in town.

The figures on Wiki are a collation of data from various clinical trials, you should put faith in the site. References are at bottom of Wiki page. Enjoy.

And i bet you read them all. I’m sorry but I won’t my faith in a website that had an airport on balbriggan beach

I even wrote one of them. :-).

Still doesn’t take away from the fact that anything can be on there but just out of interest which number reference is it?

James Attley: James Connolly is simply pointing out, correctly, that the effectiveness of EC drops dramatically the longer you wait. It’s better than not having anything but shouldn’t be the only option as it CAN FAIL even when used exactly as directed. I’ve a shelf of EC to hand if you’d like any of the info. The crux of your argument seems to be based on your misunderstanding of James’ original point. Morning after pill is a good option for a rape victim but it shouldn’t be the only option, and it’s laughable for the same people who originally decried it to be using it as a crutch for their argument.

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-poll-support-790621-Feb2013/
85% support abortion in certain circumstances. Good to see Micheal has his finger on the pulse yet again.

A raped woman has the morning after pill.

Ah MrMagoo what about the girl 14 raped by her father who could not avail of the morning after pill. But was discovered pregnant by Social Services. Who became suicidal and had to travel to England. Sound familiar. WHAT ABOUT HER.

Really Mr Magoo? After being raped there’s the shock to contend with.. People don’t think straight when they are in shock, and there’s a very small time limit on the morning after pill – it’s effectiveness decreases by the day and it’s not even fully effective to start with..

So – if through shock she doesn’t get it in time, or it fails – what should she do then? Suffer what is essentially a 40 week rape as the anti choicers force her to carry to term on top of the fact someone forced her to have sex?

Such compassion.. It’s truly astounding..

A raped girl cannot get the morning after pill in Ireland. Only adult women over 18 can avail of this on their own, and only after a meeting with a doctor or a pharmacist. Not their father, mother, boyfriend or friend over 18.

. In the words of dell Griffith…. Mr Magoo you insensitive ass hole

Alien8, that’s untrue. Sexual Assault Treatment Units provide it as a matter of course

Not every woman reports a rape on time, for various reasons. Girls would be even less inclined to do so, I’d imagine. And let’s face it, our society isn’t very good at encouraging reporting either. It’s not a realistic or practical solution.

The comments by FF over the last week seem orchestrated by a populist PR machine. It will be accepted amongst politicians that making giving women a choice will be made so complicated that the there will be a small number of local abortions each year for married women with extreme unviable for life situations, while the number of trips to the UK will stay the same.

Maybe related, I have seen a recent increase in young girls being put on the pill at 14/15 age group (in rural and deprived areas) to counter hormonal, weight and period pain issues, maybe this is how the catholic doctors are countering the potential for unwanted pregnancies in the future?

For those who are “pro life”, ‘period pain’, ‘hormones’ and ‘the pill’ are girl/women issues. It is ok to discuss them in the 21st century.

Girls of that age don’t necessarily go on it for those reasons. I was on it at 15 partly because of pain but partly because I was having regular sex. Still with the boyfriend now and I’m 22 though, dunno what the situation would have been if we had a child to raise together from that age… Thank science for effective contraception!

Alien8: period pain, hormones, acne etc are all totally legitimate uses for ‘the pill’, prescribed by non-denominational doctors, so suggesting that it might be a conspiracy by catholic doctors to reduce unwanted pregnancies seems like a bit of a stretch.

He must have got a belt with a crozier in the last week or so, or else, he has studied the latest polls and concluded that the old days are coming back and he intends to go back with them.
His opinion is worth nothing in all of this, we wait for Legislation and those that play politics with our womens lives will live to regret it.
That Ireland is like Anglo, dead and gone.

This is the kind of comment that is unhelpful. My friend has a baby with anencephaly and she came under pressure to abort – to go to the UK – in an Irish hospital, and people said horrible things like’ she won’t survive anyway’ and ‘what’s the point’ . The point was that her baby was alive and deserved every minute of her life, and she lived for 6 days after birth and we all loved her and held her and she was beautiful. Isn’t that the whole point – that we do better for people than just saying ‘kill the baby’ and get over it. mothers, families deserve better than that.

And you know, Micheal Martin and his wife lost a child to cancer so have some respect. You haven’t a monopoly on compassion.

Because it’s not like she’d be in denial or traumatised. That NEVER happens post-sexual assault.

You’re a week late there http://t.co/OF16Ztqe.

But dem crafty wimmins can’t be trusted not to pretend that they’re suicidal and trick those trained, qualified and experienced psychiatrists.

We have to insure the integrity of psychiatrists from lying sluts who couldn’t keep their legs together.

That didn’t happen afaik.

As I said, my memory may have betrayed me.. The parties Ard Fhies’ seem to all be on consecutive weeks, and it was on in the background at work, I wasn’t directly watching it. The reason it stuck out in my memory was because it was a bit of a shock.
Fine Gael didn’t say it, it’s Labours position and Sinn Feins position which leaves Fianna Fáil..
Obviously if I am wrong I am wrong. But still, legislating for what is in our constitution includes the risk of suicide. If they are legislating for it, it needs to be included.

The big policy news from last year’s FF Árd Fheis was that the members voted to support Same-Sex Marriage and Adoption. There was no vote taken on abortion to ascertain members’ views and therein lies the problem for FF PP.

Ah – that must have been it. I stand corrected.

Eoin,

Clare County Councillors recently lambasted Fianna Fail’s policies which are resulting in shops closing in County Clare.

Mark, first off, what has that got to do with any of this and secondly, you made similar claims on here before under one of your guises (can’t recall which one) but when asked for a link to the story, you fell strangely quiet. In fact retailers in Ennis were quite happy with the rate freeze that FF on the council proposed and had passed. Like I said though, that has nothing to do with this topic. Merely an attempt are shrill party hackery.

He’s studying the polls which show a bounce back in support from elderly and rural voters if he votes against. Coward if he does vote against.

Mr Martin of FF wants raped women to go through the birth to compound their trauma.
Good to know.

Good to know alight but he won’t get punished at ballot for it as he knows which group is more likely to vote; the god fearing 75 year old sitting at home staring at the walls looking for an excuse to leave the house.

Michael Martin – Keeping Ireland in the 1950s for the sake of votes.
Horrible man.

And catholic

It’s logically inconsistent to on the one hand stress the large support for legislating for the X-case in opinion polls and condemn him for not voting in support of that.
And on the other hand condemn him as being populist for not supporting X-case legislation and it’s a vote winning ploy.

At most one of the two criticisms can be valid. But why bother fit criticism to the specifics of what a FFer has said or done this time, when stock condemnatory terms can be rolled out regardless of the fit this particular situation. A headline could be FFer said/did anything and it wouldn’t overly change the tone of the condemnation.

For some people, it’s not enough to disagree with what a FF says or does. It has to be attacked from any possible angle. Because a FF politician can’t just do something wrong or incompetent, it has to be deliberately nefarious from every way of examining it, even when these criticisms contradict each other.

And a position that is completely consistent to what he has supported previously is now suddenly opportunist because he’s a FF politician. As if its not possible that there are people with genuinely pro-life views who are against abortion because they believe in the right to life for the unborn child. It doesn’t make their position correct to acknowledge that its genuinely held and motivated from a place of concern about another human.

Tut tut, not nice..

Beautiful story, this is how we show treat disabled children, with love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdrLKGmM-pc

I watched the video too. I felt so much for her suffering. The government and medical profession in this country have no real awareness or compassion for women in this, and similar, conditions. Most of them are simply misogynistic (like the RC church). I have to say this, I think Mr Martin, and other male members of government, should keep their opinions of rape, pregnancy, abortion to themselves, especially when they have a somewhat tyrannical attitude to women who find themselves in tragic circumstances. They have no idea, and never will, of what suffering a woman can go through following rape, or on discovering they are carrying a severely disabled foetus who has no chance of survival. A bit of genuine compassion for women in difficulty would be appreciated, and less of the misogyny and tyranny from our 82% male-dominated government!

I think there would be quite a few women who would prefer that to the foetus being aborted.

Another man speaking on behalf of women. Dear oh dear.

The commenter above me could also be a man and I was merely making a counter-point which is valid regardless of my gender.

I know Killian, – How dare you express an opinion. Or how dare Micheal Martin express an opinion either. So much, for freedom of expression!

This debate will go nowhere if women continue to hold the attitude that men don’t deserve an opinion on abortion. Abortion affects men, as well as women, as every foetus has a father and any foetus can be a man. I realise that women are more affected by the issue but that does not give them carte blanche to dismiss men’s opinions and concerns.

Killian nobody is saying that men are not allowed to form an opinion.

He is not being cynical, – just honest. And he has said that he is waiting to see the legislation before comitting his opinion. Why can he not freely express his concerns & reservations on this issue?

Zoe the Jesuit has spoken

the usual predictable ridicule…. All I am saying is can the man not simply express an opinion?

Haha careful Tony it bites.

It is not an opinion he holds Zoe. It’s a political one. That’s why people don’t buy it.

Zoe, the man’s opinion is that someone who is raped can access the morning after pill and doesn’t necessarily need abortion as an option. I take it that you are female like myself? Are you honestly ok with this? Picture your 14 yr old sister, daughter, niece raped by a relative or stranger. They dont have the morning after pill as an option. He is entitled to his opinion, and as long as this is 1950 then Im sure its pretty acceptable.

Zoe the Jesuit speaks again. You’ve been trolling for about a week now with multiple identities. No one can take you seriously cleric. Why are you afraid to reveal yourself ? Do you like to hide in the shadows ?

I am one person, not a ”multiple identity” – and I have the right to express my opinion as well as you.
I take your reference to my IP address as intimidation, & a threat.
You have shown your true colours, as totally intolerant of anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint.

Nobody can take you seriously ! begone anonymous troll back to the church shadows !

no further comment, – pathetic!

Next time come back with your true identity and maybe you’ll be taken more seriously.

Zrdabelzer, why don’t they have the option? They do!

Ming for Taoiseach

Ming the Merciful ;)

Jumping on what Bandwagon!! According to the dillusional pro choice side they are in the vast majority of people here in ireland. I think Mr Martin deserves some sort of respect for taking a stance on this.. considering the amount of abuse im sure he will recieve, after all its the pro-choice side seem very beligerent on …ahem …ahem ..thejournal.ie and other places. Deep down if it came to a referendum the pro life side would win so sorry to burst your little bubble of optimism. As for Ming…a great decent guy…NOT!

@ Keith, it looks like an attempt to ingratiate himself with the Roman Catholic fundamentalists. Although highly conservative on the the issue of abortion, FG has alienated support in appearing to be willing to respond to legal obligations. FF has moved in to Hoover up these anti-choice voters. It’s adept politics but unprincipled.

I agree with your views. It truly is nauseating to observe the cynicism and game playing.

That 6% poll swing has obviously tickled his fancy. Again the great unwashed Irish are a despicable bunch. A dying breed thankfully.

Ain’t u forget the little fact that there has been 2 referendums and both times pro life brigade lost.

Agreed gentlemen. One of my stalkers, Si is an example of these bits of dirt that have been hoovered up Peter.

Si regano – find me a valid poll that proves your theory and l’ll pay you a million quid. Ireland is now pro-choice in the majority. But go ahead and disprove it.

Ireland an exception to the rule, don’t make me sick. The Irish nation deserves everything that has come to it thusfar due to our peoples’ complete lack of motivation to take to the street in protest at the widespread injustices and criminal acts that go on here at the top political level. When you have more people in the country that care about Coronation Street, Eastenders and all that other muck, is it really surprising that this is where we find ourselves today? It pains me, oh it pains me – oh dear Jesus it pains me. I’m at my wit’s end with my fellow countrymen and women. How shameful a reality it is that a slogan assertive Greek demonstrators are using is, “We are not Irish.”

@ Helen, I concede that you are correct but it is hard to accept that we deserve the shower of politicians that we have.

I can understand politicians getting some issues wrong but they are now managing to pull off the highly improbable feat of being wrong on all issues.

And forget about the prospective fathers altogether? That is typical of Irish society.

Yes Dave. I’m a father of two before you jump back. The mother is the more significant party. You can see that surely.

It would be a very rare thing or exceptional circumstances that would lead a woman to not speak to the father about her decision. But ultimately, it is the woman who will carry the child. It is her body that will change, her hormones that will fluctuate, her life that will be disrupted for the duration of the pregnancy, and it is her who has to give birth. So ultimately, the decision must be hers.
If you are with a woman and you want kids but she doesn’t, then perhaps the relationship is the problem, and you should be with someone who shares your enthusiasm for the prospect of parenthood. But you should not be permitted to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will. If this consent over her own body is removed, then it draws parallels with rape and slavery, and shows utter contempt for equality.

Fathers who decide with their partners to end a pregnancy have been totally ignored by Irish society.

All relevant points.

Once every 7/8 years John Waters writes a good article :O

His most recent one was on fathers and abortion
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0907/1224323695587.html

Of course, none of you care. They’re only men

“god” should read “of”.

From the perspective of how each can take the wind out of each others’ sails.

your depressingly predictable!

Aww congrats on coming out as a bottom Si. Just cause you say it hurts doesn’t mean your church will ever forgive you.

They’re only leading the polls because they’ve kept their heads down for a while.

With Marty opening his gob in public, the electorate are being reminded that he’s a complete eeeeeeejit.

Don’t forget, this guy was a senior figure in ff during Berty and cowen….never forgive and never forget!

Run the polls again, watch ff fall back where they belong…

Let’s not..

Fianna Fáil, all things to all men, wha? Women, not so much.

Stephen Kearon
@skearon
Gadget lover. Former Govt Special Adviser & Ministerial Communications Adviser. PRO for Fianna Fáil Wicklow CC. All views are my own

What’s your point? My bio is available to anyone. Also why post anonymously?

I have my reasons, which are none of your concern.

Just find it curious that you guys are attempting to cover all the bases here. Ideologically flexible, as always…

Fianna Fail would capitulate to Europe if instructed to change the laws. FF are a pro-Europe party.

Also, they’re no more “Republican” than parties like Sinn Fein or Fine Gael.

Stephen, as a members of Fianna Fáil you know very well it has a Pro Life stance (however backward anyone within the party or country feels about it).

If that has changed (as the poll suggests) our stance as a party does not change (we are not run by the polls). The only thing that change the stance of the party is an Ard Fheis where members of the party can have it out with each other.

I would advise that you, as a member, propose a motion at the next AF and get other Pro Choice members to back it to make sure it gets on the Clár.

There are many with different views within all parties except maybe Labour and SF who still as usal haven’t said where they stand.

In Short, Martin, cannot go on TV and change the party stance because of a poll.

Dave all politicians are the same. Do you really think FF would be any different? Their track record suggests not…

Fianna Fáil are already different. I’m a member I can see it. According to polls, other people are beginning to see it too. All politicians are not the same.

On this issue I am privy to the internal debate and I respect my fellow members views. This is a very private and emotive issue and people are bound to differ on their views of it.

The way I see it, Pro Choice have the Journal, Pro Life has the Church.

Will be an interesting debate

“All politicians are not the same”

Once again, your faith has been misplaced – All Politicians are the same. It’s bread and butter. You are very naive to think politicians are “not the same”.

I speak from a non-partisan dimension. I am giving a hypothetical insight and I assume no politician in any government deviated from any party-line when it came to Europe. Feel free to correct me.

Give women correct and appropriate medical care and interventions to protect their lives. It’s not about choice. It’s about every woman’s right to receive proper medical care in a timely fashion. Life is the first and most basic right.

Sorry, but what referendum are you referring to?

European Court hasn’t made any ruling on it. European Court of Human Rights has. One is legally binding, the other isn’t.

Do you think Fianna Fail would defy Europe? Have you not seen their previous showdowns with Europe? They capitulated on virtually every issue.

You miss the point. Europe ECHR.

I was thinking along the following line:

what if someone took a landmark case against Ireland to one of the European courts and the court ordered changes? (Instruct Ireland to change the abortion law). European law is superior to Irish law (in case you didn’t realize). Just some thoughts…

Just to clarify this important issue. The ECHR has ruled on Ireland and abortion, not the European Court of Justice, which has been the main court of European law.
That said, the basis for the European Court of Human Rights has been established by the signature of the European Convention on Human Rights. After the Lisbon Treaty, the European Union has acceeded to the European Convention on Human Rights, independent of the fact that the EU member states have all already acceeded the European Convention on Human Rights. The EU then has a legally based enforceable Fundamental rights, because of the European Convention on Human Rights and the EU Charta for Fundamental Rights.

The ECHR decision regarding legal clarity and the X case is fully legally binding on the Irish State. We must legislate based on that decision, and base that legislation on Irish constitutional law.

Fianna Fáil and Michael Martin badly need to come to terms with this.

I agree..

True, broke their promise and will lose a lot of support…

The debate has been ongoing for over a decade, and MeHole Martin doesn’t seem to be offering any alternatives =/

Second bailout ?

Company layoffs ?

Pension cuts ?

No thanks…

Stop talking nonsense Mary. An embryo is not a baby. This is not the opinion of pro-choice it is a fact established by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in an extensive report published in 2010. This scientific, peer reviewed study is freely available online.

P.S. There is no such thing as a “pro-abortionist”, there are people who support giving women a choice and those who don’t.

Reality isn’t a great strength of the pro-aborts, as the IPPF addressed a youth conference in the US recently instructing youngsters to ignore science.

Children’s rights, some children’s & not others. In the past young women were imprisoned in the Magdalene Laundries instead of support & compassion provided to help them through the pregnancy now the culture on the continent or the pro-aborts FINAL SOLUTION is to eliminate the child.

Strong words.