Exactly.
Sadly that very important point has gone over the heads of anti-democratic fools.

That is exactly the point it does not matter if he wins it is important that the people are given the choice.

Delighted

The beer will be flowing at The George I suspect.

@irish pride – the beer will be flowing in most democratically inclined pubs in Ireland tonight, I’d say.

It’ll probably be flowing in the non-democratically inclined pubs too. They are pubs, like.

appletinis at the george shurely?

with no beer flowing would it still be a pub or a wine bar :)

Congratulations to Senator David Norris.

May he sue everybody who has slandered him and every media organ who has allowed those slanders to stand.

At what point does drilling into candidates’ bedroom and leisure time cease? Is the clerk of the Dail to circulate all candidates with a questionnaire asking if they have ‘been with’ escorts, rent boys, married women, married men, taken cocaine, cannabis, did you ever fail to help a blind person across the road, etc. If the media has such stuff on file, they should publish it and let the electorate decide.

Juevenile, I know but I found ‘divulgthong’ amusing.

Jackson has no choice but to tell all or apologize ,if he left it till after Norris was elected then forced the head of state to resign, I’d be in a long line to linch the bum

The mud that surrounds David Norris is not too presidential either.

You’re not having a little gloat yourself are you,Brian? I have plenty to say but I thought it appropriate to let supporters of Senator Norris enjoy their moment.

Just a little Mark, just a little.

he was a bit late in the day to come out (ahem) as a hero.. it was a politically shrewd thing to do given the circumstances

I couldn’t give you an exact time, but around 2pm maybe? One of the councils decided not to nominate him.

I could have worded it better. I regret nothing.

I’d also like to point out that it is incorrect to call me sunshine, I’m very much doom and gloom ;-)

As far as I know cork voted against him, it’s not as if he declined

Only just is right! The fact that Dana could click her fingers and have four councils supporting here while Senator Norris (even before the letters) could get no where is an indictment of the medieval attitudes of our Councillors. It is perfectly fair to say that homophobia is alive and well in the establishment.

I am so tired of the constant accusation that anybody who doesn’t support Norris is homophobic. People make their minds up for many different reasons and to tar them all with the same brush is childish.

Norris had a fair wind behind him early on in the campaign and seemed like a certain nominee until a couple of very rash interviews and actions emerged, which cast doubt on his judgement. Lets face it, when his campaign first collapsed it was mainly because a number of his senior campaign team resigned. Did they suddenly become homophobic because they stopped supporting him?

I am glad his name will be there on the ballot paper but are we going to endure another bout of “everybody is homophobic” if he doesn’t win?

you are right to be tired when people make blanket homophobia assumptions but there is no question homophobia has been a factor for David Norris, if you think not, well, there is not much more that can be said

@Jim.

It’s become extremely fashionable to decry the use of the word homophobia. As you can clearly see, I referred to the ‘establishment’ as homophobic and there can be no other explanation for the treatment of Norris.

Norris certainly did not have a ‘fair wind’ behind him. Even before the letters, he had little/no support for the councils and the TDs/Senators. yet, an unknown and a TV personality waltzed in. All of this despite polls showing majority support for Norris. Homophobia was certainly at play. As one example, a Dublin city Councillor said he would be voting against Norris during the debate as a ‘citizen and a dad’. So he’s saying Norris is a danger to children now is he?

You can keep your head in the sand Jim but the term homophobe would be used a lot less if there wasn’t so much homophobia in the country.

Jimmy/Markeen, I know homophobia exists and I have no doubt it played a part in the Norris nomination process. What I object to is people saying that its the only reason.

There are many other people who voted against Norris for other reasons because they have severe doubts about his judgement (as displayed by his past action and his poor attempts to explain them) and also his views on what is acceptable with regard to sexual relationships between adults and minors, which I don’t think he’s every clearly stated. These are all valid reasons that may have nothing to do with homophobia.

I find it odd that clergy who participate or cover up abuse of minors are rightly demonized , yet this man who has clearly stated he sees no problem with his friends and ex-lovers doing the same is applauded .I have a feeling his views and propensity for defending the indefensible could turn him into a poster boy for those with an active homophobic agenda .The rest of the candidates are don’t exactly fire the imagination though .In the next few years if the Euro crisis explodes , and the resulting depression deepens we need people with the skills to steer the country through it , none of them have that.

Forgot to say Markeen, that I don’t agree with your assessment about Norris not having a “fair wind”. Until the stories about the Helen Lucy Burke interviews which was then compounded by the Nawi letters, David Norris was easily sailing towards the 20 TDs/Senators number.

@Jeff.

He sought clemency for an ex partner who he believed would suffer mentally from a sustained imprisonment. He didn’t seek to overturn a verdict or anything. Public Representative do it all the time. Conflating it with systemic child abuse by the Catholic Church is factually wrong and disingenuous. Also, you may not have noticed, we elect a Government to address the issues you raised. The President has a very different role.

@Jim.

We’ll have to agree to differ but there was never any indicator of 20 TDs/Senators. It even prompted an IT editorial on the issue. It has been uphill ever since. Most Councillors/TDs were too quick to jump and conflate gay with paedophilia. It suited too many of them.

@Markeen
I was under the impression prison was meant to cause mental anguish its called guilt , but this is a new world hey lets leave the mental anguish to the victims the kid probably had a tight t-shirt on and deserved it

@Markeen
The President has a very important job when it comes to investment in this country .The Queen (no pun intended) brings millions of £ into the UK through meet’n'greets with heads of state and business leaders the President does the same here .The ability to bore for Ireland on the merits of Joyce is not a skill likely to bring investment ,the ability to offend Israel and 90% of US politicians wouldn’t be high on the list I imagine .

@Jeff

The point of prison is not to cause anguish but to rehabilitate and make sure the offender doesn’t re-offend. The criminal justice system isn’t designed to be as sadistic as you would like it to be. What good is it if a rapist goes to prison only to serve his sentence and rape again afterwards?

Point is if that was Norris’s concern, it was a valid one.

@Brian
Sorry the point of prison is to punish and rehabilitate or do you seriously believe that no one has to answer for doing harm to are fellow human beings or animals for that matter.Would you punish Gaddafi when he’s found? or sit him down for a cup of tea and a chat .Now if a prison system makes no effort to rehabilitate then you campaign to change it .Was this mental anguish caused by remorse for the crime or an inability to accept the consequences ?

seconded – he deserves to be on the ballot. Its down to the voters now.

Every time they try mate it’s another vote for him, the true Irish person is completely fed up of the school yard tactics that went on for decades here, mr Norris will walk this presidency

I wouldn’t agree. Each to their own. I’ve looked a the issues at hand and come to an opinion. I’d personally feel the same whether he was straight, bi or hetero, swinging from the rafters every night or at it one a year for Christmas.

Sounds to me like you’ve had a gander at a couple of tabloid headlines and come up with an opinion.

Sounds to me like you’re wrong Gavin. Not everybody disagreeing with your point of view is looking askance at the Star.

Sounds to me like you’re wrong Gavin. Just because someone has a differing opinion doesn’t mean they had a glance at a Star headline one day and decided.

I agree, Noel. I’ll have a debate with anyone. But you’ve said yourself on this page that you’re not interested in the details, preferring for a broad thrust. Also you’ve been bandying about phrases like “excusing abuse of adolescents”. If you’re not interested in detail and are wilfully misrepresenting standpoints in order to discredit the person taking them then it leads me to assume that you’re the type of person whose opinion can be clinched by some bold capitals and a slur.

He didn’t do it out of the goodness of his heart.more than likely He’s looking to pick up the transfers from all the norris supporters who think because of higgins giving his support to norris entering the race, he automatically must be a man of integrity who is committed to upholding the democratic process. Can’t take anything a politician says at face value…there’s always a hidden agenda.:)

Oh yes-I am. I was worried that for the first time in 40 years I would find myself not voting.

delirah!

Hear, hear. Very magnanimous of Higgins.

I’d agree Barry if that was the only issue. Take a step back though and look at what happened from a personal perspective. Your 37 year old partner tells you they had sex with a 15 year old. Are you honestly happy about that? Would you consider it worthwhile to continue a relationship with that person? This entire thing is being spun as an act of compassion, but the back story is more disturbing.

Barry, as a story of compassion I’d agree and would give Norris the benefit of the doubt. We’re all human. However there is more to the issue. Look at it from a personal perspective. Your 37 year old partner tells you they had sex with a 15 year old. Are you OK with that? The age of consent isn’t an issue on this one. Would you continue with the relationship? This is being sold as a compassionate act but the core issue is more disturbing. I can say that if my partner acted in this way it would be a serious issue.

He wasn’t in a relationship with him when it happened. Get ur facts straight

Ah but either way, 37 year old man having sex with a 15 year old, if it was one of my friends I’d take the view they should have known better. If I was an elected representative I’d be agreeing well away from that one. End of the day, Norris is naive and rather stupid. I wouldn’t trust him in the Seanaid at this point. He’s not fit for the Park.

Noel’s not interested in facts.

Indeed I am though. I’m very interested in the fact that Norris seems to have some values that are rather disgusting.

Very apt. And to borrow those very appropriate words of Mary Robinson, let us, ‘step out from the faded flags of the Civil War’. We our so very much along that road because of the efforts of women such as President Mary Robinson, and how much further along we would be with the election of President David Norris.

A three horse race between Higgins, McGuinness and Norris. IMHO Norris is not vulnerable to any more dirt unless it is way off field. The letters controversy will lie there to be kicked about by rivals, but his support base is likely to have made its mind up by now. McGuinness is McGuinness warts and all and probably can’t gain more than he has. Higgins has been playing a low profile game until today until it finally dawned on the back room puppeteers that without Norris transfers, he was vulnerable to a protest vote and sunk. No one has to vote for Norris, or anyone else, but what his journey onto the ballot paper shows is the need to reform the Presidential nomination system and allow the man and woman in the street a direct input into the process.

Yep this will come down to who is everyone’s second choice. McGuinnes and Norris you either love em or hate em, so it’s who’s the safe boring one with enough votes to get past the first few rounds ? My guess Mickey D

chalk and cheese

No, but the older person facilitating that is wrong. It’s tantamount to abuse. Let’s face it, as teenagers we want all sorts of things and not all of them are to our benefit. Anyone taking it as a matter of course that one of their mid 30′s friends got their end away with a 15 year old needs to examine their values.

Agreed but I’ll be well impressed if Norris adequately answers the issues surrounding him. He hasn’t been convincing so far with all his air time. He has the disadvantage now that he’s in the official process and subject to the balanced air time rules. I think a lot of people have made up their minds about him already. There is also the factor that he’s seen as having strong support so that may cause some of his supporters or potential supporters to look elsewhere as they assume he’ll be grand. I’m looking forward to hearing more from the other candidates. Norris has had enough over exposure for now.

Transfers from Norris will benefit Higgins. The problem for Higgins is that his transfers will benefit Norris and if Higgins is down on 1st preferences, he may find himself with Norris in the Aras.

Noel – his supporters looking elsewhere because they think that he’ll be grand? So, what – they’ll vote for Dana because sure Norris is going to win? Somehow I find that hard to credit, and this isn’t a general election where you have more than one seat. There can only be one president.

But I’ll agree on one thing. I too am looking forward to the media scouring over the last 30 or so years of Mitchells, Dana’s and McGuinnesses lives and putting all of their misdeeds under the microscope. I’m sure it will be most illuminating.

@ Graham
When was the last time any of the press gave that murdering bast*rd McGuinness a hard time ?

FIntan O’Toole the other day

Fair comment. Why all the thumbs down?
McGuinness is being pushed hard by the media regarding his past. Why should Norris be any different? Does he want to be President or not? No, he wants to stash them away until this election is over. Yet another reason why I’ll not be voting for him.
Michael D gets my number one vote. In my mind, the only candidate with a semblance of character, integrity, and poise.

Ah, his legal team won’t allow the release of the letters. Obviously, their release would jeopardise his campaign much more than the mutterings regarding them..

it was alleged that Fine Gael orchestrated a block against him, he was eventually put through by a strong labour presence on Dublin City Council, so I dont understand why you pickon Labour supporters.. and I’m certainly not a labour voter, nor even a Norris supporter but I am glad that he got on the ballot.

It was someone on the labour side who started the ball rolling and exposed the letters

@Gary
It was the foul on-line campaign against Norris that I was referring to.

Michael D was the one who urged councillors in Dublin to support him!!

@Ailís
My comment is aimed at his supporters, not Michael D personally.

"Walk it" is a bit optimistic. I bet at this very moment there is a team of people digging through his whole past to derail his presidential bid.
I won’t be voting for him but I’m glad for the people that support him that he has gotten the nod.

Yeah as in a 17 year old man being jailed for having sex with a 16 year old woman though if reversed the woman wouldn’t be prosecuted. He is saying it’s wrong for the man to get convicted. In Germany I think they have a graduated age if consent for teenagers as in the 17 year old wouldn’t be convicted as long as the other person was not more than 2 years younger I think. It makes sense.

Yeah I think you’re a bit confused with the last quote. That’s him saying that minors shouldn’t be prosecuted for having sex with younger minors… Read it again.

@David & Sean
Don’t think I’ve ever heard of a 17yr old going to prison for having sex with a 16yr old ?please could supply an instance

@Jeff How would you expect David or Sean to know of any specific cases involving a 17 and 16 year olds? They shouldn’t as not every crime is covered by the media, your argument is based on “If I can’t see it, it didn’t happen” and by that reasoning David Norris’s ex must be the only person to ever be convicted of statutory rape (notice it’s not called child rape, or child abuse or any has any mention of child) which is medieval reasoning.

i sense innuendo

Mary, your entitled to your opinion of David, many of us disagree with you but thats not really what it was about until now. the issue was that he’s been consistently the most popular (no 1 or 2) in poll after poll and as such it was important that those of us whom support David were given the opportunity to do so in the ballot box, equally those whom do not support David have the right not to vote for him.

Fair enough. I will vote for him. :)

I agree. He lost my vote.

Mary and Paddy,
The difference is that the church abuse was horrific, young children were raped and abused against their will.
The case in Israel with Mr Nawi was consensual sex between a young man and an older man. The word child abuse doesn’t really come into it.
I definitely do not condone it but in some European countries 15 is the legal age for men and women to start having consensual sex.

Norris has not committed any crime, he wrote a letter like many politicians have done asking for leniency, this is common practice for Senators and politicians. Norris has gone on record saying he is appalled by the actions of Mr Nawi and is 100% against child abuse both mental and physical.

Here in Ireland you are not an adult at 15 years of age, you are still a child, end of story.

@Noddy

Read his comment, he didn’t say it wasn’t. He said that in some European countries the age of consent was 15, and that he didn’t agree with it. In Spain, for example, it’s 13. I’m not condoning it, merely stating facts.

I know you’re saying all this “here in Ireland” crap but the fact of the matter is the incident didn’t take place in Ireland, it took place in Israel. That “here in Ireland” bullshit’s irrelevant.

@ Brian, fair enough, but David Norris wants to the president “here in Ireland” not the president “over there in Isreal”. So should he not represent the people and the law of the land “here in Ireland”. After all, he was a senator at the time “here in….. “

*to BE the president..

Noddy, here in Ireland Nawi probably would have escaped conviction because the boy had lied about his age. In 2006 the supreme court struck down the statutory rape law on the ground that it did not permit ignorance of the minor’s age to be used as a defense.

His ex partner is actually an Israeli not an Arab !

In this priestly country of ours the catholic church has used it’s influence to conceal crimes against children and to frustrate investigations into said crimes. To put it in perspective, Nawi has a consensual sex act with a minor who was just months away from being old enough to legally consent, and had lied about his age.

Ah that’s alright then!

It puts it in perspective, which judging by the “wont somebody please think of the children” brigade being up in arms, has been sadly lacking in this debate.

he’s polled incredibly strongly – even when he wasn’t an official candidate. you’re off your trolley.

The exit one or the one to the presidents house?

He’s a sitting Senator for 18 years Mark. Hardly anti-establishment. None of them are.

@Markeen. A sitting what of 18 years? O yes a sitting Independent of 18 years. And your argument is what? That there’s a time limit beyond which some allure falls over you, and you awake one morning a member of the establishment. Know doubt there’s an initiation ceremony for new entrants. I’m thinking Freemasonry regalia.

The man’s been a thorn in the side of established prejudice for the majority of his public life. Not exactly the most effective way to go about ingratiating yourself into the establishment, there’s got to be an easier way. That’s right, it’s usually done by kissing ass in the upper echelons of an established Political Party.

I’ll ask again Noel, who is excusing abuse of adolescents?

factual analysis or prejudice?