An expert group of pals, friends, donors and cronies!!!

Thats true but in our area it has been the socialists who have been most vocal in their opposition.

Can pay, but still wont! ( at least until such time as the Govt stop paying unsecured bondholders, and cut their own pay / pensions )

Hee hee hee say it like it is (:

If you take to hurling abuse just because you losr an argument, then you’re one classy lady, Lisa.
Have a good Christmas and try not to use such abusive language around your kids.

Makes me laugh how some people find interesting arrangements of letters from the alphabet abusive. I usually prefer to read content of a post to determine what’s abusive or not. Lisa your comment was a very good observation. But not in front of the kids. ;) Your comments Tom throughout this thread were abusive to a lot more. Gas that…

If random arrangements of letters weren’t intended to be abusive, then I wonder why Lisa used them. :)

As I said, one classy lady.

They’ll be doing that in a year or two any way. Household taxes are a normal and sustainable taxation method used in most grown up countries!

What’s not grown up is starving the citizens to support the gambling habits of the ‘Market’.

Our leaders can serve their people or Mammon. They can’t do both.

The old form of property tax (stamp duty) has gone, a system which was very unfair as it only taxed those that needed to move house in the main. How would you replace that revenue?

Grown up countries also have proper public transport, amenities and facilities. Grown up countries don’t grind to a halt when there is 2 inches of snow. Grown up countries don’t have a political system that is rife with crony-ism and corruption.

You mean like this one? ;-)

I voted yes but reluctantly.

Yep, and easy to pay the fine as well

Red thumb brigade out. Fianna Hark must be reading this.

I was wondering about this myself. Doesn’t seem right at all.

Sinn Fein TDS only take home about 30,000 a year plus expenses. The rest goes straight to the party.

And what does the party do with it? Give it back as a stipend to the TDs and party members. SF think people are stupid.

9 thumbs down for my comment. Perhaps SF are right. Perhaps people are stupid. Nine people here seem to think of SF as Mother Teresa. :)

Pilib,
He gets paid 91,000euro per year.
What he decides to do with that money after he gets it is entirely up to him. He can roll it up and use it to light his fires in his house if he wants, it doesn’t distract from the fact that he still gets paid 91grand, plus the same again in expenses.
He’s a PAYE worker, so as far as his Income as calculated by the revenue is concerned, it doesn’t matter what he decides to do with it after his taxes come out.
Should someone on 91grand plus expenses have a council house?

lol lots of FG types here. All complaining about a TD that is not in it for the money. At least he does not pocket the difference, he has always put himself on the line for his beliefs, you might not agree with the way he did it.

Could anyone imagine the likes of Richard or John Bruton ever standing up for their beliefs, ever put their life on the line. Could one imagine the likes of them ever putting the interests of Ireland before their own bank ac counts – course not.

Rubbish, Pilib. He’s earning a good wage & in a council house ?? Only in Ireland.

Tim,
Are SF a charity organisation?
Are they exempt from the SIPO legislation regarding the maximum donations allowable to a political party?
Joe Higgins is a true socialist, he gives his money to charities, plus he doesn’t take a council house from the state, he doesn’t take one away from someone that needs it.
For someone that isn’t interested in money, shouldn’t SF TD’s give back a council house to someone that needs it, instead of holding onto it, while earning 91,000euro plus expenses.
Even SF don’t mention the wage lie any more, they’ve realised that everyone see’s through it.
91,000euro per year, yet taking away a social house from someone in need. I’m surprised you even tried to defend that.

Dessie Ellis has some cheek soaking up a council house on that wage.

Tim, if you find FG and Labour types so objectionable here, you must really hate democratic elections.

Dessie Ellis got the Council House before he was elected to the Dáil earlier this year. If you expect people to give up their home as soon as they get a good job, then I think you must live in another world. And they do only take the average industrial wage, the rest being given to the party. The results can be seen in how the party has been able to open counciling centres around the country for citizens. For the first time, A Sinn Féín office was opened in Galway, despite there not being a TD in the whole county. Yet, they are able to supply very useful information and run campaigns from this office, thanks to the funds coming from the wages each TD is entitled to.
And in regards to the Household charge, Martin Luther King said An unjust law is no law at all. PAYE is just, because the monies are needed to keep the country running, and are levied in regards to earned income. This is unjust, because it hits the bankers and the unemployed with an equal levy, regradless of their ability to pay. As it is unjust, it should not only be a choice, but a duty to refuse to pay. If they need the money, stop paying dividends on UNSECURED bonds, and increase the income tax on those who actually can afford the tax.

Ryan,
Like I said, it doesnt matter what he does with his money after the state pays his €91,000 plus his expenses, he can bow smoke rings through €100 notes if he likes. He still receives €91,000 of my and everyone else’s tax money.
Would you be happy if a developer who sells a few houses after getting a council house, stays in his house, rather than giving it to someone that needs it?
He warns €91,000 per year. He can afford a house. If he decides to use that money for something else, why should someone stay on a housing list because he is too greedy to give it to them?
This wouldn’t be an issue, if SF commentators here and elsewhere didn’t constantly try to claim the lie of industrial wage.
And don’t try to say that an office in Galway isn’t anything other than a political party trying to make itself seen, self promotion. Let SF give money to homeless charities or pick any other charity.
But of course they wouldn’t, that would help genuine people, rather than

it wouldn’t help promote the party machine. Everything SF do is designed to gain votes, the exact same as all the other parties. Except, SF are more cynical in their methods. 

Good man Tom, the old anybody who disagrees with me is stupid argument. Very mature. Not that I disagree with what you have to say, but your arrogance is disgusting.

Just telling the truth JimBob. That’s the reason I could never be a politician. People would accuse me of being arrogant just because I point out very plain facts. I’d be feckin’ hated with a passion. Therefore I leave politics to those with more patience than I have. I wouldn’t get elected in a month of Sundays….but it still doesn’t mean I am wrong.

JImBob, What are you Saying! This man studied law! (so he says). We should be on our knees worshiping him! How can he possibly be wrong, of course he will always be right! Think, he is following in the footsteps of the great Saint Michael McDowell himself!

“9 thumbs down for my comment. Perhaps SF are right. Perhaps people are stupid. Nine people here seem to think of SF as Mother Teresa. :)”

I don’t see a whole lot of truth in that comment, but hey whatever man. Have a happy christmas.

My failed attempt at sarcasm. Have a good one JimBob!

Is it legal to rent a council house to a dinosaur?

Check out the work of newbeginning.ie on the mortgage campaign.

“Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim – when he defends himself – as a criminal.”

Frederic Bastiat

Well done Eileen… And on this point, i agree with your inputs many times more than many of the so-called ‘educated’ contributors, and i am college educated :) Respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah yes. Sanctimony from the woman who used the phrase “that Angela Merkel woman” and then says she would never talk down to people.

Eileen, since I’m the only person who replied to one of your comments today I assume this remark about talking down to you is aimed at me. I’m sorry you feel this way as I agree with much of what you have to say, both here and in other threads.

I’m not sure why you are bringing college education into this discussion though. Certainly as far as I’m concerned college education is irrelevant – your opinion is just as valid as any college educated person. Perhaps this is an issue which has come up elsewhere for you?

I replied to something you said which I felt was very ill considered and incorrect. You shouldn’t feel victimised because of that. Discussion boards would be very boring places if everyone agreed with each other.

Jamie Walsh . I have read all of the comments on this thread and as I am not college educated I speak as I find ,I have no hidden agendas here only to express my fears . I aimed the above comment at no one person in particular ,if I wanted to aim my comment to you I would have replied directly to you Jamie! However If you have taken it personally that is a shame . We are all faceless names here and as such there is no need for any body to feel put upon.
As for not being College educated , this is not an issue for me at all ,I quite enjoy robust discussions and I enjoy learning from those discussions too. Every day is a school day , in so many ways. :) :)

How ignorant to take your fear out on German people, Eileen. Hope you’re proud of yourself.

How ignorant to take your fear out on the German people, Eileen. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Jamie Walsh @ To be honest with you Jamie , I am proud of myself and in so many ways and for so many reasons . I am not going to apologise to the likes of you who have NOTHING to contribute to this discussion except criticize me for being fearful of my future and that of my children’s . Unless you want to offer any thing that may explain why we are obliged to register our details ,yet again, for the benefit of our EU masters (The five TDs from the United Left Alliance – backed by other independents including Thomas Pringle and John Halligan – will hold the press conference today where they will call on the public not to register for the Troika-backed charge.) . Do not presume to put words into my mouth and make something of ”the Germans destroyed the last of the Nazi files last week !!!!” My fears are real and ,the Germans did destroy Nazi files in last week or so.I am being flippant I am not taking my fears out on the ‘German people ‘ but that Angela Merkle woman is a German politician Hence Germans …. See who else here you can try and intimidate with you off the cuff comments that add nothing to help any one !

If you look, Eileen, you will see that I have commented on this thread. You can read it below if you feel like it. Try not to be so self righteous about contributing to the discussion when you haven’t taken the time to read the comments of others.

What I commented on here was a response to your ignorant comment about the destruction of Nazi files (which happened in 2007).

Your fears about the tax are perfectly justified and I didn’t comment on them. Your ‘flippant’ comment however is offensive and you should give some consideration to what you are writing. “That Angela Merkel woman” is the democratically elected leader of the German people – there is no need for your histrionics. Making associations between the destruction of Nazi personnel files and the Irish Government calling on people to register for a property tax is simply ignorant.

No one is trying to intimidate you by replying to your comments. If you don’t want people to express an opinion on your views then perhaps you shouldn’t publish them on a message board.

Jamie Walsh@ The last of the files were indeed destroyed last week. Your comment is further DOWN the page …. which I have not read yet . As for calling your pal Angela Merkle a woman , am I missing something ? She was elected by her country men/ women just the same as Enda Kenny was elected here , but that does not mean I can not criticize them . Have a good day :) :)

Yes, Eileen, my comments were made three hours before you accused me of not contributing to the debate. So I say again, perhaps you should check things before being so self righteous.

You’re incorrect about the destruction of the Nazi files. The incident occurred in 2007. Perhaps you are referring to the admission by the German intelligence agency last week of the destruction of the files, which was uncovered by historians.

Angela Merkel is not my pal and I have never met her so your facetiousness isn’t necessary. I have no problem with you criticising her or her Government. I have a problem with ignorant comments about the Nazis.

Have a lovely day :)

Jamie Walsh .I have a problem with Nazis too .

I heard a person saying on the radio yesterday that they had five children and so they wouldn’t pay. At first I thought “fair enough” but then it was opinted out that this same person gets over 8k tax free in taxpayers’ money. So they will take tax money when someone else pays it and not pay it themselves?

How much free tax payers money do you get Tom?

I get 1680 euros per annum. It is utterly disgraceful. Why should the taxpayer pay for my child?
And before you ask if I would give it back…yes I would as long as my tax money didn’t go to pay for someone else’s decision to have a child. :)

Something we agree on :-)

Indeed JimBob but someone out there seems to think (if thumbs up and down are anything to go by) that I should get that money unconditionally. So we have a situation where the taxpayer is getting screwed, the person receiving the money ackowledges that it is unfair that they receive the money….and a third party then objects. Weird country.

Another thing we agree upon. Ireland truly is a weird, backward country. I’m glad I left, don’t think I’ll be back for a while.

It’s a publicity stunt. I do however hope all this highlighting of the issue has some impact

Is it not fair enough that at least he is polarising the issue in this way?

Barbara’s name usually pops up on threads if sinn féin are involved in some way. Just saying I don’t think she likes them.

It might be to do with the fact that they are murdering scummers who have brought shame on our nation.

Funny how her name didn’t show up on the thread yesterday re RUC collusion in the murder re Miami Show band. Funny that…

Sinn Fein aren’t the only political party to bring shame to the country, they’ve all done a good job at doing that.

True but I think blowing up kids in a shopping centre is different to taking a tax amnesty.

People have died because of what the current and previous governments have done to the country. People dying of suicide because they feel they can’t cope and through poverty related illnesses. This is no less reprehensible than the actions of IRA during the troubles.

I actually find state sponsored terrorism worse. I grew up in Dublin so I’m less willing to judge people growing up in 6 counties than I am willing to judge state collusion in murder.

Yes. We are paying for his council house. We are paying his Dail salary. We are paying everything for this greedy little man.

So once a person is elected they immediately have to give up their home if they live in a council house?! Now that’s a disincentive to poor people running for election if ever I’ve heard one!

If I lived in a council house and I suddenly got a job paying 91k per annum, I wouldn’t find it so objectionable. I’d rather the 91k per annum.

I hate to break it to you but if someone receives money from the taxpayer in the form of a council house, and they earn three times more than the average taxpayer….then I’m sorry but it’s the taxpayer getting screwed here.

Holy crap. Two people think that someone on 91K should be getting a council house? I now see where this sense of entitlement comes from.

4 now, but that’s not the point. Just because he was elected to the dail doesn’t mean he should loose his family home and be forced to leave his community. Surely he can represent his constituents more fully by living amongst them. He should probably be made to pay rent to the council during his time as an elected representative, but afaik there is no legislation to allow this.

The personal attacks were removed I would guess.

But it seems whole threads were removed, not just individual comments.

Whole threads haven’t been removed.

It might be worth noting that the iPhone app can only show a maximum of 50 comments on any one story, and the Android app can only show 30. This comment will be number 116.

If you view the site on either our desktop or mobile sites, all comments (or at least, all bar one or two which have been removed) are still visible.

Pity. I just saw an abusive comment directed towards me on email. It had already been removed from the forum. Well if someone cannot articulate themselves properly, they are probably a bit thick.

i suspect the phrase “poacher turned game keeper” would apply there if he was

He would have no choice.
This is a Money Bill. The president has no choice, but to sign it. If he didn’t, he would have to resign.
So, yes, Martin McGuinness would have had to sign it.

Thank god you translated that. I hadn’t a clue what you were talking about.

No he would be up north bandaging his nephews knees

He wouldn’t bandage his nephew’s knees. He’d lecture his nephew on why it was wrong to do whatever the nephew is alledged to have done and that the men who blew his kneecaps off were only administering justice. His nephew’s protests about rule of law and right to fair trial in a court of law would be laughed at by McGuinness.

President does what he’s told, and will like it!

He would be in breach of the constitution if he refused to do so.

Article 13.3.2°: The President shall promulgate every law made by the Oireachtas.

He could, however, refer it to the supreme court, citing it to be unconsitutional as it did not take account of varying degrees of capacity to pay. :D

Ryan. The Supreme Court has no juristiction to review money bills under Art 26. Pay more attention in class dear boy!

I did. Any bill, deemed as possibly unconstitutional, the president has the power to send it to the Supreme court for overview. This probably would not be deemed unconstitutional, because as you yourself pointed out, it is a money bill, and governments are entitled to levy taxation, etc. But still, he could use his right to call attention to the bill and, ‘Make a Fuss’!

OK dear boy it’s make your mind up time. Either the president can refuse to sign it or not. Tick tock, tick tock…PS in exams when you give a wrong answer you can’t go back back afterwards and try to wriggle out of it.

Given that you described yourself as “qualified” to comment, I think you should pay a little more attention in school. :)

I love all your high brow legal terms like “make a fuss” and “have some balls”. A real legal intellectual heavyweight. LOL.

I appologise. My terms, which do in fact illustrate my anger, are far too unappropriate in the presence of your majesty. I said I was ‘qualified’ to talk about politics, because you started telling people as a person who studied law you were the highest level of authority. I don’t feel I am above anyone on this issue, and I am not a student of law, but as someone who is genuinely interested in politics, and who studies it with a passion, I wanted to show you that our obligation is not due to the govenment, but to the state. So if I appear ‘haughty’, this is totally unintentional. I just felt I needed to inform you of my limited education before actually being able to argue with someone who ‘actually studied law (Point nose in the air)’

Sorry, apologise

Ryan Sorry if you got upset when I contradicted you on points of fact such as the president’s ability to refer a bill to the Supreme Court. You have just stated about me “because you started telling people as a person who studied law you were the highest level of authority”. I wonder where you get this stuff from. Perhaps words just magically appear from the screen. I am not the highest level of authority and if I (or anybody) contradicts you on a point of fact, it does not make us the highest level of authority. We cannot “unknow” facts simply because it is so detrimental to your argument. I reckon you read your textbooks the way you read this thread…not quite following it all the way.
Sorry if I made you feel inferior. To make you feel better I will give you 100 euros of my own money (large enough to make it worthwhile to collect and small enough to know that it is real) if you can show me where I said that I was the highest level of authority.
I think your feelings of inferiority have more to do with how you perceive yourself than anything I could say.

How to lose friends and alienate people…by Tom Neville.

Of all the issues we are confronted with in Budget 2012, why is this the one singled out for civil disobedience? Some families on low incomes, where there is chronic illness or disability, are facing weekly income cuts in excess of €100 a WEEK. Fuel poverty is a serious problem. More people are facing exclusion from health services and a decent education. If the focus is on the Household Charge (note, all these TDs own property), these issues will be forgotten. Is this just easy populism for the ULA?

Good point michael. I suppose it is because it affects us all so its easier to rabble rouse. Either way it doesn’t matter to.me why because I won’t be paying it, by choice…not because I can’t or I an exempt. But I have to say I’m glad of their support.

Michael. I think the reason this is stirring civil disobedience is because this is something we feel we have the power on which to send a message. This will hit them in the pocket which is the only thing they seem to care about. We all care about the cuts you’ve mentioned and this can be an easy way to channel that frustration and anger. I’m raging that as a tenant I’m being denied my right to protest but doing my best to get the message out to non Journal readers. 

PS. Getting to love you more and more Niamh. Like women who speak their mind and don’t give a sh!t what the “neighbours” think of them. ;) Funny how things pan out! 

Will it suit the coalition very well that the Household Charge is THE issue? Will they hide behind “loony left” insults to consolidate their support while the real issues that will cause real suffering to many people will be sidelined. If it really is the case that those refusing to pay face €2,500 fines and the possibility of prison, you might as well give up the job to avoid the USC, or emigrate to avoid 23% VAT. You can be very sure that the vast majority of people will pay the 100 quid.Wouldn’t it be great if we had some real social solidarity where we stand shoulder to shoulder with the really vulnerable, rather than worrying about our individual well-being.

Philosophically, I wonder what is the difference between the politics of the post-modern left and right. They both seem to appeal to self-interest. Marx must be spinning faster than a neutrino at this stage…

You are such a interesting character Michael. I love reading your thought provoking posts. Hear hear to you.

Thank you Réada. Your compassion always shines through…

Likewise reada…you big oul socialist you (:

Yes, but if it is morallt, wrong, as an unfair tax is, their duty, as representatives, to to represent the people and take a stand on this issue. For your info, they won’t be paying the fine either, and said they are prepared to be incarcerated for taking a stand against an unjust law.
‘An unjust law, is no law’ Martin Luther King

It’s important to realise these TD’s are not spearheading this campaign. It is a grassroots campaign that has been gathering strength over many months. In Donegal alone, dozens of public meetings have been held in different towns, attracting attendances of up to 500 at a time – Huge majorities in each case committed to resisting the charges and to standing up for one another on the process. TD’s speaking at those meetings have been directly challenged to clarify if they were personally committed to joining this resistance. They’ve now answered.

I see your point but unfortunately I’m a bit cynical about the motives of politicians when it comes to leading protests. The bin charge protests were very unsuccessful and the only winners in the whole affair were the Socialist Party, who increased their base. The result now is that we all now pay bin charges and ordinary people, particularly in Dublin, were the ones adversely effected. It seems to me that this is the way the household tax will go too.

@ Ryan, I also see your point but I wouldn’t compare the civil rights campaign to a household tax. Also, just for info, ‘An unjust law is no law [at all]‘ – is from St. Augustine (4th Century philosopher). Martin Luther King just quoted him in a letter. Sorry, I’m a bit of a pedant about these things!

No harm to be cynical of politicians. But we need to start turning that cynicism into something positive or we’ll all end up bitter and twisted, and more to the point, conquered. As in ‘divided and…’

First thing we need to do is stop ceding all the political space to politicians. It belongs to us, they only occupy it at our pleasure. If we get a grassroots campaign and they join in, well and good. That’s what politicians should be doing. Not the other way around.

Wow Gav, a succinct and accurate post. You speak the truth and that is rare here.

Correct Gav. Rates should never have been got rid of in the first place. Why should businesses who pay rates and water subsidise private house holds?

I have no problem paying it once unsercured bondholders are told to get stuffed, there is real reform in the cost of government, and politicians pensions are cut. Until then, they can go jump.

You have a poor understanding of democracy. We are not supposed to give our mandate to a de facto dictatorship. We elect them, then their job is to represent us. These TD’S are not leading but following. Representing their constituents, as, in a democracy, they should. And, as the duly constituted gov, isn’t.

Why is one obliged to respect so-called ‘democracy’?
The Nice and Lisbon Treaty farces proved that we do not operate under any such thing in this country.
Being permitted to vote within a narrow left-right paradigm to elect a different set of puppets every few years does not constitute democracy and the word is bandied about as if it’s some sort of moral safeguard against all that’s ‘evil’ (substitute ‘non-Western’ to taste) on the socio-political globe. Nonsense. Until someone can demonstrate true and consistent application of the democratic model at the highest level of our current power structure it deserves no respect.
With regard to legislation governing the household charge, in the absence of a bilateral contract there is no legislative jurisdiction over the individual and absolutely no obligation to pay. Just because we are told otherwise, does not make it the case.
Basic contract law supersedes the media rhetoric and legislative structure of corporate controlled politicians and the sooner we educate ourselves and begin to use the tools at our disposal, the easier it will be to open our collective consciousness and force change through peaceful means.
We have the power should we choose to take it back.
Do not co-operate, do not pay. We are many, they are few, there is nothing to fear.

Ahem….basic contract law….obviously not hugely familiar with the law their John. Taxes are not subject to what you call “basic contract law”. Isn’t it annoying when you get caught making stuff up? :)

This is not a democracy! This is a benign dictatorship – one where we elect people to do whatever they want to us for 5 years. I crave for real democracy. “of the people, by the people FOR the people” And it”s worse in Brussels ye Gawds!

I’m not so sure if we are in a democracy. I think party politics has destroyed our democratic process. A TD who votes against the will of his leader for what he feels is right now finds himself expelled from the party and shunned.

Perhaps you missed the election last february. What stopped you (or anybody with all the answers) from runing?

Plus I’ve said this before but use of the word “dictatorship” is hugely offensive to those who have been murdered by dictators. It is both inaccurate (as we had very open elections) and disgustingly disrespectful to those who died under dictatorships. Have some respect for human life please.

Lack of money stopped me from running. I agree with you as regards the use of the word dictator. It’s a bit over the top. We aren’t living in a true democracy though.

On the contrary Tom, check your facts as you’re obviously misinformed. Both the state and its tax-collection agency are registered companies.
I guess that must be annoying for you alright.

Tom. Having liars run for office is another impediment to democracy. They got to see the books before they ran. They shouldn’t have gone for the job if they weren’t able for it.

Ah John, how foolish of me (someone who has actually studied law) to think that I might have actually learned something when someone one the internet obviously knows so much more. So if tax is subject to normal contract law (as you have said) I look forward to getting a refund of all the taxes which I paid through the years which went on things like overseas aid, social welfare etc. I haven’t got any of these as part of my contract to pay taxes. Damn those poor unfortunate people with disabilities taking tax money and not completeing their side of the contract. :)

Keith if you really wanted to run why didn’t you do what everybody else who ran did and go out and raise money?

Reada

Unless I lived in another country, both FG and Labour said there would be a very hard budget. I agree that Labour’s pledge on third level fees has been broken, but apart from that, everything else is pretty much as expected. Do you think that the budget just happened since February?

Omg. Tom sounds just like the kind of guy who should himself run for office. Arrogant!!!

Thank you Reada. But I would never run for office as I’d have to put up with moapy feckers like yourself calling into my office everyday saying “what can you do for me?” “I want, I want, I want.” I am happy to help out those I believe make a genuine contribution and don’t tell people that they are entitled to everything just because they are a “citizen”. But if I got elected I would most likely tell people like you to go and feck off. Those who really need help should get it. Those who spend their time on the net complaining, should put their talents to better use.

Tom. There is something in the constitution re the home being sacrosanct. Would you like to study that instead of taking people down a peg or two?

Reada You are probably referring to Art40.5 that a dwelling shall be inviobale except in accordance with law. In other words you can refuse anybody entry to your home unless they have a warrant.
What point are you trying to make?

It was just something I’d heard Tom. Don’t have the years studying law to investigate it. Thanks anyway.

“Foolish”? Your words not mine Tom but at least we’re in agreement on something.
I’m on the internet, imagine that! It stands to reason that I must know nothing then. As a matter of interest, what medium are you currently using to condescendingly attempt to pontificate from?

So you’ve studied law. Fair play. You don’t mention what strand and quite frankly I’m not interested as your grasp of it seems to mirrror your handling of English. Also, you don’t know me but to enlighten you somewhat, your implication that I haven’t studied the law is wide of the mark.

I didn’t say “tax is subject to contract law”. I stated that the legislation governing tax is superseded by contract law. There’s a distinction there.
I don’t know you and have no interest in speculating as to your employment status, tax status or contractual arrangement with the state or anybody else but to pay polite credence to your misguided line of ‘logic’, just because you may have contracted to pay someone something, it doesn’t mean they are automatically obliged to give it back to you so I woudn’t bank on that rebate.

Anyway, I’m off to pay the TV licence, I hear RTÉ have much to teach us! Have a great, democratic day Tom.

Sorry there John, what point are you trying to make?

John and Reada…seriously what points are either of you trying to make?

By the way John, just so you are clear about this (and don’t try to weasel out after you’ve been found out making stuff up) the legislation surrounding tax law is NOT superceded by contract law. It is however superceded by constitutional law. :)

I’m addressing your last post Tom. Tough concept I know but I’m sure you can work it out. Good man.

Tom why are you trying to argue with someone who is using freeman logic? You might as well talk to a wall.

Note to self. What’s wrong with me that I jump into arguments when I see someone putting another down claiming a superior intellect.

Wrong again Tom. Read Lisbon (yes I have). That’s all from me. Good luck.

Reada I’m not claiming superior intellect. I don’t know where you got that idea. As regards being familiar with the law, well yes I am. I cannot “unknow” the law or facts simply to make you feel better about yourself.
Keith I have no idea what freeman logic is. All I know is that you didn’t run. Therefore I can inly conclude that you did not want to run. Many folks without money (e.g. Ming Flanagan) ran very successful campaigns.
John…you’ve completely lost me. At leat the others are trying but you’re just making it up as you go along.

Tom, if those 161 were truly representing their constituents, then, yes, they should assert their majority over the 5, so long as they respect the rule of law and do not infringe human rights in doing so. However, this government has explicitly set its face against the electoral mandate it was given, in order to follow policies set far from us, the citizens.

As it happens I know a bit about dictatorships and killing zones, having been reared in Latin America in the 60′s and 70′s. I don’t use the word lightly. Dictators are often more than happy to assume the mantle of democracy or at least of majority rule. Even Hitler used the electoral process to gain power. That’s why it is important to differentiate carefully between actual democracy and it’s hollowed out form in the process of being subverted.

@tom, I’d say you are a right dictator at home.

I take you rpoint about democracy but I have Polish friends of my age group (late 30s) who lived under dictatorship and I used to date a girl from Erfurt (many years ago) who grew up under Erik Honeker. What these people had to tolerate was shocking. No privacy. Dissent against the government was met by smart alecs on the internet or the letters page of the Irish Times. Dissenters were routinely shot. In Cuba dozens of journalists are missing and will never be found. I take your point about Hitler using the democratic process to come to power, but it is still offensive to compare anything today to the horror which was dictatorships. In Saudi Arabia, the closests thing to a benevolent dictatorship, women have only limited rights and dissenters of this policy routinekly get put in jail. In ireland you can say anything you want to. You can called Enda Kenny any name under the Sun and whether I agree with it or not, you will still be free to do that tomorrow. So in conclusion, yes I do think that using the term “dictatorship” is hugely inappropriate and downright disrespectful to the dead.

Just to clarify a typo. Dissent was NOT met by smart alecs on the internet or the letters page of the Irish Times.:)

Tom, as ‘Someone who is actually studying Politics and Economics’ (In TCD, I may add), I feel ‘qualified’ to inform you that your argument is totally incoherent and, frankly, stupid. The 5 TDs can go against the 161, if the 161 have no balls to stand for their coutry first, and the interest of the powerful second. We elected a government, democratically, to represent us the people, and not the parties they stood for. Their duty is to us, and nothing should stand in its way. There are some laws all Deputies should respect and adhere to, but when TDs see that something thing is unjust and Wrong, and does not serve the people as an entity, but only those on the upper echelons who, instead of needing to pay high taxation on income, need only divest 100 quid, then their duty to the citizens of this country (and not to 161 TDs who feel obliged to their parties and the EU to go ahead and hit the weaker elements of society, rather than after the fat cats) is the oppose this bill and refuse to comply with an unjust law.
It was the people of this country who gave the government authority. If we refuse to recognise their authority, then they have no right to force us, as they were elected to seve the interests of the poeple (not the other way around).
So, frankly it the 161 TDs (I expect that numbe to fall in the near future) who are giving two fingers to the mandate the people who elected them to serve people justly and honourably.
And, Tom, I agree with you in that; those 161 TDs ought to resign.

Tom I find it very hard to believe you studied law if you do not know what freeman logic is.

Ryan, if only we had some way of measuring how the electorate felt about politicians on a regular basis. I’ve come up with this amazing concept called “Elections”. It might catch on. But of course if it does, it blows your argument to bits.

Keith I am afarid I did indeed study law, quite recently actually. I have no idea what Freeman Logic is. I must have been out that day. I gave a quick glance through some of my text books in the glossary pages and there is no reference there. Not my intention to shock you, but it would appear that Freeman Logic is not being taught as part of the FE1 law exams. :)

By the way Ryan, you might point out where in the constitution it says that the will our legislature should be overturned if they have no balls. I’ll accept answers in either Irish or English as I know there can sometimes be ambiguity with the translations. :)

No Tom, it is not thought as part of the FE1 exams. Freemanism is like the antichrist of law. Ask your colleagues about it.

I did a quick google search Keith. If that’s what you believe, then I am afarid logic and reason might not persuade you. I wish you well, but if it sounds like a conspiracy theory, then we have the world’s dumbest conspirators.

Sometimes there is no magic conspiracy and people just make bad decisions on their own.

Sir, I feel humbled by your excellence, but frankly, elections are held at regurlar intervals so as to hear the view of the people. In the time between, the elected deputies are held responsible to the citizens, and to the state. People give the state authority, the state uses this authority on behalf of the greatest benefit of the people.
This law is of the greatest benefit to the 1% of the population who now don’t need to pay higher taxes, and against the 400,000 thousand who are currently living on meagre incomes. Therefore, this law is unjust, and does not obey the will of the people.
The people may vote in elections, and elect a government, but in the mean, the administration must listen to the needs and abilities of the people.

So, since you are so smart and wise, may I so humbly ask you to please inform me, which way best serves the interst of the greatest number? Rasing money through unfair household charges, or raising money via wealth taxes, income tax for those on higher wages, and by refusing to pay for unsecured bondholders?

For your interest, these are a few book that I find very infromative for seeing who actually has authority:
Lukes, S (1988) Power A radical View
Boulding (2004) the Three face of power
Raz, J (1990) Authority
Barry B (1976) Power and Political Theory
Beetham, D. (1991) The legitimation of Power

According to the above, the government of our time ought not to have authority.
But, lest you don’t believe me, I wish you a merry read. After all, these authors are probably closer to your level of intellect than a poor undegrad like myself.

It’s not what I believe Tom, it’s the logic John Gibbons was using against you.

Sorry Keith, Tom had some reading to do, so he probably won’t be back to inform us on all our mistakes for some time.

So Ryan you believe that only nice law should be passed and facing reality should mean the end of a government? And it’s not that I have anything against undergrads. I used to be one. But if you get caught out bluffing, then you have to admit that you are caught out.
Keith I have no idea what John was on about. He was making up stuff that tax law is subject to normal contract law etc. Completely bonkers stuff devoid of logic.

Tom, just to pick up again on your point about using the word “dictatorship,” which, as I said, I do know something about.

You are either:
a) ignorant of the processes which allow democracies become dictatorships – step by step, concession by concession, each one explained as a necessity, or, as protection from some external evil, or as the means to counter an external threat, etc, etc. The real, tangible excessive evils encountered under dictatorships did not arise suddenly out of nowhere – they arose through the use, often within democratic systems, of multiple means to stifle, channel and derail consent and resistance. When we encounter these processes we need to take that lesson on board, and beware.

Our political system is clearly no longer representative. Our electoral process is wonderful, but it is not effective if it does not deliver a government aware of its obligation to represent the people who elected them or actively gain the consent of the governed. If it delivers, instead a government that believes such an election gives those elected the right to do whatever they like, and order whatever they wish – it doesn’t. If they take that mandate and twist it to their own ends, if they ignore the mandate they were given, then they are acting like dictators, and the process of hollowing out a democracy to replace it with a dictatorship has begun.

b) simply using the “you can’t talk about x, because of these other people who have suffered y” gambit to derail a reasonable conversation that you cannot rationally rebut.

Of course we can use the term dictatorship if we like. When we use it we are fully aware that we are referring to the cold winds that blow from regimes that have overturned democracy and institutionalised the use of force and threats to gain the submission of their people. We use that term to strongly express the nature of that which must be foreseen and resisted.

Auntie Dote You can make inaccurate comparisons to dictatorships all you want. Your reasoning is that all dictatorships were once benign. We are now beneign. Therefore we must be on our way to dictatorship. That logic is just bonkers.

But what is offensive is to compare a household charge and other taxes to anything comparable to a dictatorship. It is stupid and offensive to make any comparison along those lines. It would be as logical to say that since it rained in Nazi Germany, we must be heading that way.

Yout comments are offensive and disrespectful.

Sorry Tom. No, I don’t believe only nice laws need to be passed. But only just laws, yes.

You call this IMF/ECB-imposed theft of the meagre wealth of the average person “democracy”? Making promises before an election and immediately breaking them is not democracy, no matter what excuses you make for it.

Do you seriously believe this drivel? Repeating the media-provided “we all went a bit mad” meme doesn’t give it the status of truth. The extent of the losses incurred by the banks can not be explained by defaults on mortgages for domestic properties alone. Actually, they can not be explained by defaults on the much larger commercial mortgages either. They could be explained by banks borrowing from Germany and turning around and loaning to Italy, Spain and others, who in turned defaulted those loans. They could also be explained by banks were gambling on fraudulent financial products such as Collateralised Debt Oblligations and Mortgage-Backed Securities. Mortgage defaults are a very small part of the overall picture.

Cheers Tom :)

You’re most welcome! :)

@Tom Neville and what does your comment make you

Change the record.

There will always be comformists like you who will accept any status quo, there are others who will not and I praise them, for those who say breaking the law, if you re saying its Illegal to boycott and refuse to pay the household charge, you re saying its Illegal to own your own private property, like the poll tax, laws that do not serve the Interests of the vast Majority will be broken whether you like it or not.

But since you have tha view the status quo should always be upheld, do you think Rossa Parks was wrong when she broke the law by refusing to give up her seat? do you think those who broke the law by refusing to pay the poll tax were wrong? What about the protesters in Cairo do you they wrong to break the law, when they refused to leave the square?

What about The masses who take the streets in Libya, Syria or currently in Russia all broke the law – are you suggesting they should be all imprisoned? South Africa, the former Soviet Union, civil rights movements in the US, N.Ireland.

Grow up – if you want to pay the charge off you go leave the rest of us to fight being screwed yet again.

Well said. Clare Daly and co don’ t care where money comes from as long as they don’t have to pay.

They do.

What are you taking about….who cares?

You don’t offend me Tom, your political party and the “lets get Ireland working” background does.

The only thing that offends me is your political party and the “Lets get Ireland working” background.