It’s still doesn’t address a child’s right to a father. get it right first.

Email sent to Paul Murphy MEP.. Re…Children’s Referendum.

Written by Niall Doyle

To Paul Murphy,

Socialist Party M.E.P. Dear Paul. I would like to disagree with your comment on last Sunday Night’s RTE TV programme ‘The Week In Politics’, when you stated that there WILL be a ‘no campaign’ on the Childrens Rights Referendum and such a campaign will come from the “Religious Right”. That comment
was a total generalisation. I, together with many others, are campaigning for a no vo…
te. We are ordinary individuals of different religious persuasions and none. We are ordinary individuals from modest socio economic backgrounds. We are ordinary individuals of different nationalities and ethnic groups. We are spread all around the country and none of us have any particular political preferences. But it is fair to say, that from a social, moral and economic perspective, most of us would be far closer to your party than to the politics of a Fine Gael or Fianna Fail back bencher deep in rural Ireland. Unlike many of the charities and vested interests, who are campaigning for a yes vote, we do not enjoy any state or private funding for our campaign. We are just a group of parents, both married and unmarried, grandparents, uncles, aunts, non parents, of both genders, who have very serious concerns with this article that is proposed to be inserted into the constitution. We believe that it is dangerous for the state to be given guardianship of the nation’s children, given the state’s past, and indeed recent terrifying record on protecting children in care. We believe the organs of the state already have the necessary powers to remove a child, or children, from an abusive or dangerous domestic environment but those same organs of the state have been failing our children without any accountability. We do not envisage any further protection for our children happening by giving the state the power to decide what is “in the best interests of the child.” This phrase has been used by the secret family courts for years to mask their own failings. We are very concerned that this referendum, if passed, will actually be bad for children as any child can then be removed from their family environment and such actions by the state, whether right or wrong will be conducted in top secret. Any wrongdoing by state agents will not be under any public scrutiny, due to the In Camera Rule and there will be no safeguards against wrongdoing by state agents who will be able to act with impunity and with absolutely no accountability. We have learned the hard way in this state the dangers of the state taking possession of our children and handing them to the mercy of the religious orders who raped, abused and murdered those children and got away with it. In conclusion we feel it was unfair and ill informed of you to pigeon hole people like us, into a category that is at odds with our own ideals and opinions. Yours sincerely, Niall Doyle. ndoyle09@gmail.com
— at Paul Murphy, Socialist Party

Written by Niall Doyle

remember the dreadful Roscommon abuse case? those unfortunate children had been rescued by social services till some do-gooder, right-wing, catholic nut job using the loopholes in existing constitution, to have them returned to their abusers for another 2.5 years. The constitution needs to be amended so this can never happen again.

I had my child taken from me forcefully by the state and the courts because I was only 17 , I was raped in 1989, but I carried my child through for the full nine months and when I saw my first baby daughter, I loved her the moment I saw her, and I name her, I know I was raped, but she didn’t do any harm to me, she was my daughter, the authourities came in to the hospital and took away my child, I never got to say goodbye, or give her a kiss or tell her how much I loved her, I still don’t know where they had taken her to, or whom she is with, I don’t even know if she is happy, I am married now, with two other children, boys, they are twins, but I still want to see my little own first daughter, she would be 23 years old today, I miss her so much, she will always be my daughter April,

It’s a complete white wash of an amendment. There’s nothing in it that isn’t already covered by law. People seem to think things will be different if it’s put in the constitution but tell that to the women who still have to get the boat to the UK when they have a life threatening pregnancy. Putting it in the constitution will not change anything. The same people will be running the HSE and there will still be no money to help those who need it. That’s why no politician is objecting to it. They know it means sweet FA.

As to the wording itself. It completely avoids all the important issues which it should have been addressed. An amendment to the constitutional article on the family would have been much more beneficial to children.

I intend to vote yes, but I’d be interested in hearing the reasons why people are selecting no

All the political parties, relevant state agencies and those with expertise in the area are advocating a Yes vote. Usually , I would find such a cosy consensus a bit suspicious & troubling as it tends to stifle proper debate. That being said, on this occasion I probably will vote Yes.

I will vote yes on balance but I have some questions that I hope the referendum commission answers.. 1- what is the definition of “parent” in the wording? Does it include adoptive, step, foster parents, guardians etc? 2. The amendment indicates that the welfare of the child will be paramount…. How will this pan out if there are 2 children with different but not mutually inclusive requirements? 3. Will the welfare of a child now take precedence over the rights of an adult in criminal cases? (even if one party is 17 years old and the other 18 years old?). Just some food for thought.

Childrens Referendum on the 10th of November 2012 Is The repulsive attempt to establish “the State as guardian of the common good”.

Is this the same State that has recently been the subject of a report on 196 deaths of children in state care? Could this be the same state that has repeatedly attempted to cut benefits to the most vulnerable members of our society? The elderly, disabled and yes – children! Aren’t these the very “guardians of the common good” who decided that the Irish people should shoulder the burden of banker gambling debts? Isn’t this the same state that has condemned us all to austerity and mass unemployment – which directly affects the well-being of our children?

Historically this state paid the salaries of teachers who routinely brutalised children with absolute impunity. They continue to collude with the church in preventing those responsible for the widespread “sexual” torture of children from being exposed and punished. The Ryan Report also documents three known cases where children in the care of state and church were used for medical experiments. The State must never be allowed to become “guardian of the common good”. It is a privilege which belongs exclusively to “we the people” of this nation.

The fear is taking power from the pot, and giving it to the kettle.

“All the political parties, relevant state agencies and those with expertise in the area are advocating a Yes vote.”
That may well be but John ‘Holy’ Waters is on the No side.

Not a parent myself but will vote Yes, if people are good parents then no intervention would be necessary, hope that those who do need support parenting do get it.

I don’t have any faith in the state when it comes to caring for our children. I am voting no because I don’t believe the best interests of the children are actually what this is all about. That is glaringly obvious when you hear of the battles parents are fighting today to get their children certain medical treatments and access to SNA’s. In a previous article, a judge mentioned that the courts already have the power to act in the best interests of the children. I have a dreadful feeling this is all about costs and I am reluctant to do something that I later regret.

This money would be better spent helping families in need, increasing services, employing more professionals etc. All we hear is how more and more families are being pushed into the poverty trap, children are more at risk because of it but the answer isn’t to take children away because the state decide the parents can’t take care of them. The state have a duty to help those families and do everything they can to keep them together.

i said don’t know because while i agree with the wording i don’t believe we have the resources and infrastructures to be able to adequately care for children in this state. Giving more power to a state which has shown itself to not have a child’s best interests at heart and a history of massive mistakes in this area

Since when has the State been able to look after anything apart from it’s self. I will be voting NO for that reason also I do not believe the Bill is in the best interest of the Child or the Family.

I’ll be voting no.
It won’t make a blind bit of difference to the welfare of children money and resources are needed – not high filuting constitutional law.

All those children who died in the care of the HSE – didn’t die because of a flaw in the constitution

The money the Govt and other political parties are going to squander on the referendum would be far better spent providing direct care for children at risk.

The timing of the referendum is also a cynical ploy by the Govt to divert attention from the upcoming budget

I’ll probably vote yes. I generally don’t like the government or trust them very much but I can’t see them become aimless baby snatchers. Just because people are biologically capable of having children does not make them parents. I accept that the line is blurred with regard to when to intervene but the fact remains there are situations where it is essential to intervene where the well being of a child is at risk. I don’t see how this referendum changes much except to enshrine children’s rights into the constitution alongside their parents’ rights.

I am voting No as i too don’t trust the Government or the HSE. as i have seen them take children off parents that are doing a good job raising them and just because a parent has mental health issues and is stable on meds and living a normal life does not give Social Workers the right to take their children just because they think its in the child’s best interest as they feel that as the child gets older the parent might not be able to meet the child’s needs, what a load of bull i never knew the were physic now aswell its Ludicrous !!!

im voting NO and heres why the HSE is responsible for hundreds of missing children some of whom have been found dead the laws are already in place to protect our children they jus aren`t obeyed and nobody is takin responsability article 42 clearly states that if a parent refuses to give a vaccination they can be deemed an unfit parent , some of these vaccinations are deadly and some children in other countries have died as a result of these vaccinations yet they tell you if u dont give it to ur kids then ur unfit

I’ll be voting No to the Children’s Referendum. For more info on why I believe this transfer of power from family to state is unethical, see http://www.campaignforconscience.org/the-childrens-referendum-why-ill-be-voting-no/

An unfortunate fudge of an amendment. Good to see best interests constitutionally enshrined and a better qualifier on adoption but as many constitutional scholars have noted the inalienable and inperscriptable rights of children were already recognized under Article 42.5. The ‘chilling effect’ of the PKU case etc however may be removed as this shows the judiciary a popular appetite for a greater common sense approach. But I don’t see how legislation would not necessarily have been able to cover all these issues. Oran Doyle’s piece is particularly interesting on this point (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0221/1224312113156.html)

End of the day children’s rights can only be protected and vindicated through funding their socio-economic rights.

I feel the wording is very broad and open to interpretation. It’s not outside the bounds of possibility that the state would overstep the mark on deciding what was “in the best interests of the child.” The very vagueness and lack of clarity is the reason I’ll be voting against the referendum. I think the state’s record on protecting children is dire and the harsh cuts to those who are most vulnerable makes me believe that they don’t give a damn about children. Maybe if resources were available to struggling parents they wouldn’t find themselves in a situation where they are labelled “bad” parents.

If this is passed and actually enforced how will the government look after the thousands of inner city children who are completely neglected by their parents?

This referendum doesnt seem to be fully understood. Its aim is to remove children from abusive situations not from families who are struggling or single parents or from anyone who is doing their best.

It is infuriating that people are taking the position that if the government wants a YES vote then the people should vote NO. It is ridiculous that people that are capable of voting are spouting this rubbish.

Regarding the actual amendment, the over exaggeration of some people that this means the parents become the child minder and the government become the legal guardian is worrying. The wording aims to create a legal ground for the government to create legislation to tackle the problems within the HSE. The HSE, while they are a shambles, are our only Health Service in the country. We should try to improve it instead of sitting back and let it depreciate further.

I agree with a comment I read further down the page, the government need to enshrine individual rights like many other countries in the world, rather than trying to balance the rights of the family against the child. These two rights are inherently linked so attempting to balance them against eachother will make a difficult job for the best of legal professionals.

This is the best we have and the children of Ireland do need protection and hopefully this amendment will be the kick start that protection needs.

It is about time children got their rights. I will be voting yes in the referendum

I am heartened by the level of opposition to this vial referendum. The state is the biggest abuser of children in Ireland with kids being 6 times more likely to be sexually abused in care, 5 times more likely to die in care and quite likely to end up in a foster care family that have not be approved and inspected………… Keep kids where they belong …. at home unless proven beyond doubt that their natural parents are bad for their lives

children have no rights in our present constitution , by voting yes we are allowing the child to have rights …

you know when you take an action like voting for child slavery and rape then you are responsible for that act the universe has a way of paying you back, maybe one day it’ll be your child they come for I pray they don’t because I never want these monsters to get any child but thats a choice you make, I don’t have children young enough for this to effect me , my girl is a strong teenage young lady who knows her rights so its a lottery and it could be you!!!!!!!!!!!!

I voted yes on it but after reading the comments I change my mind cos I knw a girl that was in care and when she was 16 she ran away.. the foster mother called the social worker at 5:15 and the social worker sayed there was nothing she can do cos her working day ended at 5….

Article 41 gives the all the children right to free education, and article 42 protects the right of the child and parents, but I notice that the child voice will be blocked for good in this change constitution, and any child over 12 this government plans to reform prison institutions in secret places, I would never trust this government or state with any child, Fitzgerald and kenny are evil and sick gutless people to even introduce changes in the children’s constitution, and what about the rights of the father too, daddies have been excluded in these. This children’s referendum is not for the children of Ireland but for the children in Northern Ireland and UK as UK need to change 1998 the good Friday agreement, and William Hague needs to smuggle immigrant babies across the boarder in northern Ireland, their will be no protection for the republic of Ireland Children or the Disable children, EU Angela Merkel a Protestant of Germany, is only looking out for Belfast Loyalist Queens aRmy benefit, they even have the 5 judges arrange, 4 female judges from Canada, and one male Judge Gerry Hogan from Britain will rule our Children’s courts and televised the Hearings live in EUrope all over, what sort of protection does that child get, no privacy, I find it sick and degrading, including using the Disability children for their charity funding, and profit from them and televised them in schools all over Ireland, Technology of our children’s Euro spy’s perverts of the Fututer this Government have it all plan to get rich with immigrants Children from other Eu countries and sell them to anyone that can afford the child for 20k a child, William Hague and Cameroon, ring leaders of the pack and sick individuals running in our children’s department, and UCCD in co cork all British running the regime in Ireland and this government, too, read all about it on Internet, search and you will find, check DES Doyle out, when you press on Constitution, and you will get the full details of the real Children’s Referendum Plan, this Gutless shower of Politician need to be charged for Corruption and Conspiracy a d attempt to hurt our Irish children by reforming institutions of the past,

The government and the hse and the church and the Garda have all let ,children of this state down and now they want more power!!! -!!

All of you who want to vote yes means that you will be responsible for the children who are removed from their families for adoption. It is happening right now in the UK. Many families are fleeing to Ireland for safety from the corrupt social services in the UK.. Private companies are involved in this adoption, it is a lucrative business, in fact for every child a social worker snatches in the UK, they receive £2,500 when the child is adopted. There are several adoption agencies in the UK, oh and by the way, they have taken over in Ireland now too, number 1. agency made £144million last year, number 2 made £54.2 million and so it goes on and on for 60,000 children. I would think that is some money wouldn’t you!!! Quite a few Fat Cats there, huh!! I am asking each and every one of you now who wants to vote yes do you want this on your conscious or do you have a conscious!!! Our constitution is just fine, it is quite sufficient to take care of our children, but, unfortunately we are dealing with a corrupt state, corrupt agencies, and children’s charities who may I remind you are funded by the state, a few Fat Cats can be found wandering in those too. 1700 children cared for in a system where many are not vetted, 260 children died in their care, some of unnatural causes, and 500 missing, some who ended up in prostitution. 26 under aged girls ended up pregnant!!! Are these the people you want to take care of the most vunerable in society, “our children”. The state has placed out children in institutions for several years where they were raped, sodamised, beaten, left hungry and murdered, yes!! murdered by the very people who should have taken care of them!!! Please take time to reflect!!

There seems to be a cosy consensus amongst al the politically parties and the Childrens Charities. Doe any one smell a rat? I do. I posted the following queries on the Facebook pages of Barnardos and the YES for Children campaign. I was banned twice by both groups after posting the following link:
http://equalityforfathersinireland.webs.com/apps/blog/show/19257290-what-are-barnardos-trying-to-hide-

Over 50,000 adult adoptees in Ireland yet FG and Labour want to bring more children into that category,

Adopted adults are excluded from the Freedom of Information and Data Protection Acts.
adopted adults are refused the right to their identity and birth certificates.
adopted adults are refused the right to medical histories.

Until Legislation deals with those already living the nightmare of being an adult adoptee in Ireland, then for the sake of Irish children vote NO on Nov 10th.

Is this the same referendum on children’s rights those corrupt gangster in Fianna Fáil promised us 7 years ago?

I have read nearly all the posts on here and what I find “most disturbing” is the amount of people who are believing in this government they don’t how to tell the truth and cannot be trusted.

I believe in Childrens rights and protection, but it’s a No! If a Yes is carried, the Government will say its a Signal that the people back them in anything they do. I hate hijacking, something so important and I know it may be wrong. But this shower of Sewer Rats, will thinks its bait to gnaw more from the Taxpayer!

“in the best interest of the child”…., a term born in Germany under Hitler ….vote yes…., welcome to the 4th Reich

to all the people that vote yes to this it’ll be on your head and your karma every child that is taken and trafficked to God knows where by the corrupt family courts, children have been avbused by the Irish state for a century and now ye blind sheep plan to give them more power to snatch and abuse, shame on ye for supporting the rape and abuse of more children!

If the government want you to vote YES; VOTE NO

We saw what happened last time!

We are being told to vote Yes in the Children’s Rights Referendum. Is it really a good thing for Children?

On the face of it, from the title it sounds wonderful, but is it really? On these pages we have provided you with information to make an informed decision. Do the research for yourself and we think that you will agree that this is an attack on Families and Children. Children will actually have less rights if this incideous legislation passes. Ireland will be giving up the sovereignty of our children to unelected people in the UN and EU

Irish children deserve a world-class Child Protection System, but the Irish State have always proven to be the worst possible parent. What is happening to children now in State “Care” is far worse than ever occurred in the old institutions. Wait for Ryan Report II, coming soon.

We are being fooled by the Government and by people with vested interests to sign away our parental rights to determine what is in the best interests of our children. If the Constitution is changed it will give license to the Government to do anything they want and you will have no say.

The Irish Government are currently allowing 30% of all Irish Children to live in consistent poverty. They have allowed banks to make 6,000 families homeless, they have cut back services to Special Needs even in the good years. They have allowed children to die in hospitals because they would not fund treatments. They have denied children an Education, the right of all children “Enshrined” in the Irish Constitution. They have allowed the deaths of 260 children in “Care” of the State and allowed 500 to go missing in a decade, many of them trafficked into child prostitution and nobody was held accountable for these failures. Children are dumped on the street at age 18 by the Child “Protection” System. Can you imagine a parent who loves their child doing that?

Now the Government are asking you to sign away your parental rights so that the State decides Best Interests.

The question we are being asked here is “Do you trust the Government?,
worse yet. “Do you trust the Government with your children”.

I will leave you with a quote from Emily Logan, The Children’s Ombudsman in an opinion piece in the Irish Times;

“My office has never examined a case involving a conflict between parents’ rights and children’s rights. And if there is one thing that has become confirmed by the eight years of this office’s operation, it is that parents are by far the strongest and most tenacious advocates for children.”

Article 3 fully protects the child and they have removed this and article 41 for free education and free health cover to any child in Ireland, they blog that out , what happened to the wording to flourish and cherish, and protect our children of the future, their was no need for a children’s referendum as they could have draft a bill up to fully protect the children and had a debate in wording from the children and let them have their say, the wording of the voices of the children would have being better, at least it would have been the voice of the children not the dictators and liars , etc, and got it all signed in a court, and that would have been compromised, Fitzgerald since children’s minister, 100 children died under her care, and mr Shannon wrote a report, the same people all agreed on the wording of the referendum, as this was their intentions and plans, and they want the state to look after and be responsible for the children, no I don’t think so, not the safe people you can trust any child with, Britain offered to take some of the children out of Ireland and put them into care in England, Canada and Australia too, our children Irish born being moved out of Ireland to make room for immigrant children from china and Russia, Etc,

The reason I will be voting no in this referendum is first of all I have learned that if the government want you to vote yes; vote no.

If they want you to vote yes it means that its onli in their best interests.

If this referendum goes through then as I read in the Irish independent on Tuesday last; that if you are a poor family and your child is smart, your child will be taken off of you and adopted by the “wealthy”.

Also I had a discussion with a friend of mine and we came to a realisation that, if you don’t intend on getting your child vaccinated (which can cause autism), then the government will have you down as neglecting your child and will come and take your child.

This is a disgrace!

Our government are good for nothing, except for lying through their teeth and making sure people vote the way they want and believe me this referendum is NOT in the best interests of OUR children.

http://www.change.org/petitions/supporting-the-irish-nation-step-down-from-government

I am voting no because it will be used as another excuse for asylum-seekers to have children just to get leave to remain here,
And that will mean more charges on the State in Health, Education, Housing and Welfare. Especially after Shatter makes them all citizens.
But the biggest reason I am voting against this referendum is that it wiil be used to forcefully take their children off the Travellers.

Save the Children, Vote NO. |

Vote NO for Democracy and Freedom and to save the children from the State.
The Irish Government , with the support of all the Irish political parties including all the opposition , are running a national referendum in Ireland on Saturday next November 10th to give the State more control over the children of Ireland in opposition to existing parental rights, even though the Irish Constitution already protects children , where the State has always dismally failed to do so.
Those of us concerned citizens opposing this are being overwhelmed by mass organisation, mass media and postering across Ireland right now by ALL the Irish political parties with all the politicians ganging up on the people, we feel that this is the final solution by the State and the politicians to all dissenting voices in Ireland.
Thus we the people , with no organisation, no political party left, are fighting to the finish for Democracy and Freedom of Choice to be maintained in a Free Ireland, and that our children be saved from State despotism and Dictatorship.
Save the Children, Vote NO.

Suppose a dictatorship was to come to power in Ireland. This amendment could mean them taking your children away if you are not a believer in their ideology e.g, Communism, Fascism etc. Are you prepared to risk this?

Now try it, you just try to run all that is proposed here without reference to the special case of the Traveller families, you can’t , not even with a solid YES vote on Saturday November 10th – and this is why this referendum is a complete and total Confidence Trick because no legislation that will work , without provision for the Traveller families can actually work, and such provision can’t work either as everybody must be equal under law.
So if Frances Fitzgerald gets her Yes Vote she still cannot legislate as laid out for the purposes of this referendum with no mention of the Travellers anywhere, but even if she now produced legislation to make them exceptions to the rule it can’t be done anyway as we all have to be treated the same under law.
Any or all legal eagles here must by now realise that it is all a Sham and a Confidence Trick of being asked to vote for something that can’t be done without that Traveller exception , that can’t be done either!
Come on the Travellng People your existence has not now only shattered the Government but all Irish political parties in Dail Eireann as well and exposed them all as Fakers and Charlatans.
Thanks for your help, Lads:-)

If you love your children you should vote “NO” Do not sign your children over to the banker controlled State, the UN, and unelected EU bureaucrats that instigated this referendum. Anyone that would hand over their children’s future to politicians and proven compulsive liars that do not respect the people need their head examined and must be totally insane.. The politicians only respect the bankers interests that control them.. I have first hand knowledge of what the SS are capable of and its by no means good. Interfering, evil child thieving corrupt bastards.. “That’s a fact!

There are doubtless some parents who are not fit to bring up children, unfortunate people with an appalling history of dysfunction and dreadful behaviour. In fact much like this Government, that wishes to act as surrogate parents. Either way, the kids are going to be the losers.
This is not the best use of resources. The economy is more important than this “social tinkering”, and it is that which is (or should be) the Government’s primary job to address. Only by the alleviation of poverty will the lot of disadvantaged children start to improve.

Not to forget that the Animal Rights bill is in the Dail next week. Animals don’t get a referendum.

Going to spoil my vote with:

‘I VOTED NO TO LISBON AND YE IGNORANT ***** IGNORED THE WILL OF THE ELECTORATE’

I’m never voting again in this country

I will vote yes because 1500 children in care means the existing situation is not working. If as a result of this referendum the number of children in care drops by just 1 to 1499, then it will be worth it. One voter cannot change the world, but they can change the world for one child.

I don’t intend to vote. After the last referEnda, which was clearly rigged in favour of a “yes vote”.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article/-511609/How-social-services-paid-bonuses-snatch-babies-adoption.html

Vial? —Vile, file, viable, vital, viral, just one little word changes the whole sense.

It’ll be used for two reasons, the referendum! To find out where they stand with the people, if defeated and to use it as a mandate to impose more cuts, if passed. Someone explain, what’ll happen to the Government if it’s defeated and what’ll change for children immediately after being passed?

Another example of how the media treat the public with contempt.

http://www.lukesarmy.com /content/how-social-services-are-paid-bonuses-snatch-babies-adoption

now, today, 22nd, they are asking us to do a poll about a poll. “How will you vote in the referendum?” Wouldn’t mind so much if The Journal told us what they were up to with all these polls, but they just keep stum and give us ‘the mushroom treatment”

These articles are turning into a ‘load of Polls’. The Journal never publishes the results of these data collections. Seems like they have a lucrative little side-line going selling on the results to interested parties. Big business advertising runs the world.

@Michelle – as far as I know, and I am open to correction, the social worker in question in the Baby Ann case was personally acquainted with the foster parents. I think it was mentioned by one of the judges. Draw your own conclusions.