Yes they should pay for the abuse those women suffered

Block voting?

Older people wake up earlier on Saturdays

Miley and Biddys, would rather pay for the Church’s failings and protect them. These are the same crowds, that vote for FF or FG and they’ll protect their pensions! It’ll take another few generations, to flush this ignorant and greedy bunch out!

Me too! They were the primary abusers in these cases. They should at least contribute.

Don’t be surprised. Votes on religion-related stories and polls are often wildly out of kilter with the opinions shown in the comments, at least for the first couple of hours. Seems like either organised block-voting or scripting. The effect is usually reversed as the day wears on. It’s not very sophisticated though: when the question is whether religious orders who grew rich through enslaving humans should now compensate them, and the answer is a resounding “no”, it’s pretty obvious it’s the work of a very small but very motivated group of people. Especially on a fairly secular, liberal-leaning site such as this.

Colman, older people remember what the accepted norms were back then. I was at school with the Christian Brothers and lay teachers combined in the 40′s and 50′s. Beating with a leather and/or cane was accepted as the best way to treat children who gave incorrect answers when questioned on any subject. Lay teachers were just as committed to this form of treatment as the religious orders. I believe that the social order was changed by people like me who experienced this treatment and insisted that changes be made to the way education was given to our children. Our generation was responsible for the laws which banished corporal punishment in our system.

Just as I believe that society of the time was cruel and largely uncaring, I am of the belief that the religious orders of the time were a reflection of that society. They were probably a lot less cruel than our society.
Colm, do you think that people like me would have a case for an apology and compensation?

Tom I remember those times too…harsh and very cruel, thank goodness we have come a long way since.

They provided a service. The government imposed no regulation. They didn’t have to use them. Therefore, the government, not the religious orders should pay.

Catholic brigade are out in force today – lets abuse women and children then issue a lame apology and all will be forgotten

Religious orders yes, tax payer No. Let the church sell land and property to pay. It’s all well and good for Kenny to apologise but why should every taxpayer in the country pay?

Andy it’s the religious orders who made money from the hard work of these women so they should pay

The Vatican are busy clicking no

Damn right! Who would vote no to this?!! Polls like this are always skewed by vested interests.

As a former catholic and professed religious, I feel I have the right to pose the following questions to certain conservative commentators here. In all of the Magdalene Laundries, just exactly where was the “love of Christ” when these innocents were being abused? Were these so-called “holy and religious” abusers never taught the real, full meanings of the basics of Jesus’ teachings and principles? If they had been taught them, well, then who do they think gave then the right to behave in such an abominable and totally unchristian manner? (I wonder just how many red thumbs I’ll be getting for these hard, but completely true comments! What justification can there ever be for disagreeing with unpalatable but totally true comments? Or, are any of my initial comments untrue? If so, please refute them – from a totally christian point of view, of course! Please do not attempt to insult my knowledge with pathetic excuses like ” in those days, Ireland was a very hard and difficult place in which to live”).

Rarely would I pay much attention to Internet polls but this is shocking. Holy crap!

Seriously starting to believe half of Ireland are completely deluded and that’s putting it mildly.

Sure look at how many people were out supporting the poor Quinns… Muppets…

Sorry Andy, you’re only partly right. The nuns did not pay wages or PRSI for the women, and even in cases were women were remanded for small crimes (e.g. petty theft) and given minor sentences, say 2-3 weeks, the nuns kept them long beyond that, sometimes for life. Yes, the State should have had oversight and are responsible, but that in no way gives the religious a pass for the slavery, enforced incarceration and rampant abuse these women suffered (despite that the McAleese report attempted to whitewash much of that). And to suggest they didn’t make a profit is an outright lie. We have ample evidence to suggest otherwise. There is equal blame here, and actually the nuns are right in pointing a finger at society as well (which would be covered under the State’s pot). But let’s not forget that the Church created the template and code for Irish societal behaviour and the architecture of containment designed to hold those who didn’t ‘fit’ that template. The apologist nonsense on behalf of the Church just doesn’t wash anymore. If the religious orders don’t want to pay their portion, how about we set up a system where the Irish public can send their laundry to the nuns to be done by them for free? Oh, and one final thought: where were Sisters A, B, etc. during the recent Magdalene graves memorials in Cork, Galway and Dublin? Conspicuous in their absence is where they were. A sincere attempt at remorse instead of the usual blame the victim and everyone else would be a nice start.

Hopefully no red thumbs, Garth. Well said! And for those who claim their were ‘good nuns,’ then why didn’t they speak out or act out? All it takes for evil to triumph is that good men (or women) do nothing. At the height of the Laundries (1950’s), we were post-WW II, post-Holocaust. No one can tell me the religious didn’t know it was wrong and evil to treat human beings this way.

The amount of no votes doesn’t tally with the first comment, something is wrong here

Because they can’t handle the truth?!! :D

Graham
The enslavement of women within the Magdalene Laundries was with the consent of the people and the State.

Of course they should pay, and should pay dearly as well….

That would send a very clear message to all religious institutions..

Nuns, My mother was left handed and they slapped her with a ruler till she wrote with her right!

Religion short-circuits reason and compassion.

Father ted?

@ Niall – it is particularly crass and thoughtless to bring Fr. Ted quotes into a serious matter.

Why should the taxpayer pay,Yet again the taxpayer is asked to foot the bill,something they had nothing to do with.
The same as the banking mess was loaded on to the taxpayer.If the Government went after the Bankers,Developers,Bondholders/Gamblers,the religious orders and others their would be no need to be strangling the ordinary people with Water rates,property tax,septic tank charges and all the other Austerity measures taken over the last number of years.

Sinabhfuil
I totally agree with what you say. Lives ruined – terrible. It’s only right that the religious orders pay. The idea
of scholarships to gain 3rd level education and apprenticeships is a good idea.

It looks like Christine made a mistake – blue for No and orange for Yes, All this correspondence signifies that this is the case. Me – YES.

This is not a poll it’s a sham with all the no votes

Looks like the Ionaites are also believers in voting early judging by these per centages so far!

As a human being I think they should. Congratulations on your catholic beliefs.

There’s quite a high number of shares of the poll on facebook and twitter

Orchestrated campaign for sure…

Oh look! 11 members of the Iona Institute dislike my comment!

Exactly. Tax them. No religious body should be exempt from paying tax simply because they are a religious organization

Wasn’t it that carpenter fellow who told his followers (something to do with paying the Romans taxes) that they should, as well as honour god, pay their taxes. I hope I’m right on this one.

Don’t worry Donal, they won’t win in the end.

Seems like somebody in Iona Inc. got a html programming for dummies

Here here ..

It’s hear hear love.

yes ,of course thy should pay, my dear aunt was a slave for them for 21 long hard years, of physical and mental abuse and brainwashing, i would like to ask the fund for the money to put a headstone on her grave, thy owe her that and much more.how can anyone say thy should not pay,

Eamonn, spot on! Unfortunately, I inadvertently downvoted your post when I meant to upvote. Even more unfortunate, since you’ve hit 80, you apparently cannot be upvoted further. I suspect there are many, many, many more people who thought they were upvoting when they downvoted your awesome post!

To be fair, I think the majority of the population would agree that the church should pay, it is the same small but well funded minority that drags its heels as we try to make Ireland a modern country, one that won’t accept the amoral actions of previously protected institutions.
They can slow progress down, but they can’t stop it, eventually their obsolete views will be consigned to the dust bin of history, where they belong.

The same place where they’ll vote for Fianna Fail in the next election cycle.

Yes, apparently. Or members of Iona Institute. Or both.

One lad above admitted to voting no and have a look at the replies from the “liberals”. You can have an opinion, as long as it’s the populist one. These comments sections are gone to the dogs.

I wasn’t aware that only “liberals” care about human beings.
That’s interesting.

Hardly but unless you’re part of the populist (anti catholic, anti government, pro choice) then anything you say gets bombarded with populist crap from faux liberals. Sort of like yourself. Its hardly liberal to disrepect the opinions of others. But i guess it’s all about how many green thumbs you can get eh?

You must be new here, welcome to democracy!

Says the man bitching about a poll oh the irony :-)

Where am I bitching about the poll?
I’m sorry that you are the minority in this country, but take heart in the fact that for the time being, your side has most of the political power.
Those days are numbered though.

And again you’re wrong. I voted yes but I respect another’s right to vote no without your green thumb seeking comments lambasting their intelligence and position. Any other way off the mark assumptions you’d like to make? Seeing as you’re an expert in the field

So…I’m NOT bitching about the poll?
I’m sorry, what was your point again? Did you have one?
I don’t care one jot for “green thumbs”, if you put an opinion in a public forum, it is open for discussion, or as in this case, if its an unjustifiable position, you should expect to be lambasted for it, as it should be everywhere.

Because they believe living in poverty and suffering brings you closer to god. The problem is in the belief itself.

Justice for Magdalenes submitted a simple proposed scheme to Minister Shatter in October 2011 (http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/JFM%20Reparations%2014%20October.pdf). And you’re right, it is neither unreasonable nor illogical. And no, it doesn’t need to be a tribunal, or adversarial or anything remotely resembling the fiasco with the Residential Institutions Redress Board. I realise I’ll continue to get thumbs-down from the ignorant and the apologists — that’s to be expected. But facts are facts, and we’ve amassed thousands of pages of them. That can’t be refuted. I just cannot believe that after witnessing the abject failure that every attempt by the RCC has made to whitewash, blame victims (or society) and otherwise shove their failures under the carpet has met with, that they still don’t get it. Be remorseful, compassionate and own up to your failures — you might even get a few souls back into the pews. That’s how we move forward and progress as a society and as a people of faith. But these current attempts at deflection just further show how out of touch the Church is

It’s not just an Irish problem, abusive Bishops and priests have surfaced in Catholic communities all over the world.

I think that the RC Church is ultimately to blame. The acts of the Irish in the past and their morals and values were for most part formed by the church and religion. I don’t believe that people in that time were so heartless, but I do believe a lot of people lived in fear of reprisals from the Church.

First off – yes, they should pay.
Secondly, in days gone by many girls were packed off to be nuns whether they liked it or not, some went of their own volition, but not all. Same goes for priests. I guess that’s why it’s true to say some weren’t in it for the right reasons..

I’ve met Magdalenes. Some of the stories are shocking, but they aren’t all bad. There were some nuns who weren’t sadistic bitches (as well as the ones who were). Many of the women who were in the laundries are being cared for now by the orders (and they are being cared for as opposed to used as slaves this time).

The orders should pay their share, that’s a given, and in some senses the orders are already paying by providing care for the women that were wronged by them, but these women deserve more than the basics – because they were deprived of so much in these institutions.

And who created the moral template for Irish society? Who created the architecture of containment to hold those who didn’t fit the template? And who abused those so incarcerated? Yes, the State failed miserably in its oversight of these institutions (as did society). But just because the police fail to arrest the murderer, does that mean we let the murderer off scot free?

You are aware that for those women still residing in the nuns’ care, the nuns are taking any pension payments the women may be entitled to and any other monies the women may get? They’re not ‘paying’ for their care, meager as that is in many cases. The women paid for that years ago with their slave labour.

I can’t speak with authority on that as the women’s financial situations was not something that they chose to speak of when I met them.
Having said that, if they are cared for in the nursing homes then whether their pension would cover it is another matter – those places are pricey to live in. A state pension wouldn’t come close.

If you ask the religous orders to pay it would be a closed chapter in the history of a shameful era of Irish history and a missed oppertunity to raise the standards of duty of care(Note: not duty to care) by Irish society as a whole. It’s surely a contradiction that as 1916
approaches there will be many celebrating another chapter of Ireland’s history and there will be no doubt that the mathamatics of the day will dictate the views of us all . So this been the case there are those whom will feel hard done by ,and for thier own reasons rightly so. Here is the bit I have had to fathom out who should pay the answer to me clearly is that society should pay rather face up to history than moving foreward just for the sake of moving foreward. p.k

Maybe there are more people than we think out there who have brainwashed by these criminal monsters

p.s. I voted YES

Yes you are entitled to your opinion.
In this case though : your opinion is wrong.

Not on the journal lad. I’ve learned on the comments here that everthing thats ever gone wrong in the world ever, is the fault of FG/LAB and the Catholic church.

Brian, can you tell us why? You are 100% entitled to your opinion but I would like you to tell us why it is that way.

You didn’t tell us WHY you voted no, Brian. It must not of occurred to you that people might be interested in your thought processes as opposed to your attempts at sarcasm.

Glad you can use caps

Nobodies opinion is wrong. You can of course choose to agree o
r not, your choice

In this case your opinion is very wrong.Why should the taxpayer be paying now for something that they had nothing to do with,it’s the same as putting the banks debt onto future generations.The religious orders are very wealthy and should pay.

No, anyone that thinks its acceptable to torture children and force them in to hard labour is wrong, but you are perfectly entitled to be wrong.

Should we also sue the large percentage of families who put their relatives in there? The reason people with an alternative view don’t give an opinion is because the amount of personal abuse from a large section of the online mob – ironic that this mob is similar to the church of the 1950s “have any opinion as long as its the same as us”. Its a poll, agree, disagree, debate its meant to be a free country

Brian, I don’t agree with you but respect your point of view

I never said you weren’t able to have a differing opinion.
Why would we sue the families for putting them in an institution that they assumed was a good place?
THEY didn’t torture these children, the church should pay, the government should too for protecting them.
If you can’t justify your opinions, don’t waste everyone’s time by sharing them.

“Nobodies opinion is wrong”.

Nobody’s.

Are you 4 years old or something? That’s got to be one of the dumbest things i’ve ever seen on this site.

NOBODY’S OPINION IS WRONG BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION AND IT’S JUST AS VALID AS EVERYONE ELSE’S AND U CAN’T SAY THAT URS IS BETTER THAN MINE SO SHUT UP LOL GO JESUS AND BOO ANTI CHURCH BABY EATING ATHEIST CONSPIRACY.!!1!!1.

You make my point better than I could Andrew

Your point was that you can’t justify your position on the matter?
Congratulations!

You apparently also believe slavery and abuse were acceptable, too. Good for you.

No! we’ve listened to their views for long enough and look where that got us!

We at Justice for Magdalenes tried…they refused to engage in dialogue with us (even when Cardinal Brady called our campaign “fair and balanced” and urged them to). They’ve not been to one Magdalene graves memorial to date, have shown no remorse or concern (except for their own reputations), only upkeep their own gravesites at former Magdalene sites, and now anonymously go on radio and in print to mete out further blame and abuse on victims. So what other side are we missing? How they loved and cared for these women? How they fed them well and let them come and go as they pleased? How they paid them equitably for profitable laundry work and sewing? Paid into their pensions? Kept them from being injured or dying from equipment and harsh chemicals? I’m sorry, what story are we missing here? They got a chance to tell their story through the McAleese report, and even that was missing huge chunks of records, testimony and financial data. I’d love to hear the truth from a nun who witnessed the Laundry experience and is willing to go on record by name. Oh wait — that’s right — two did: Sr Stan Kennedy documented Magdalene abuse in her 1980’s book and Patricia Burke-Brogan documented it at the Galway Laundry. Neither testimony was used in the McAleese report. Hmm.

Patricia Burke Brogan has been someone who has consistently tried to raise this issue. It’s a pity she hasn’t got more recognition for her attempts to raise the profile of the abuse survivors.

Very good point Powerabbey.

An interview with the two unnamed nuns who were involved in running the laundries, dubbed Sister A and Sister B, featured on RTÉ Radio 1 programme The God Slot last night. When asked about an apology from the religious orders, Sister A said: “Apologise for what? Apologise for providing a service?” Later in the interview one of the sisters said:
It’s easier for these women to blame the nuns than blame their mammy or their daddy.

Is that the best you can do?

The money is for the hours/weeks & years they worked. If you work then you should be paid.

Maybe you should be forced into labour for a few years and then tell us if an apology will solve everything.

That is a pathetic statement to make.You cannot ruin lives and expect to get away with it .They also made a lot of money out of them and they have a lot of assets.This thing of sticking up for the immoral and brutal way they were treated is just not good enough.

If you were a Magdalene survivor like the one who came with us to the final meeting with Senator McAleese and admitted to us that she was going home to a house with no heat because she couldn’t afford it, you might feel differently. I’d say 10+ years slaving for the nuns earned that lovely lady a heated home courtesy of those same nuns. I’m fairly certain heat boxes/meters don’t accept apologies as currency.

Then ask the RC church to give up theirs Patsy, see how far you get.

Money solves nothing. But the point of making the orders pay it anyway is more as punishment for their sins. Those who are wronged may only gain a crumb of comfort from seeing the orders punished, but they shouldn’t be denied that crumb, however small.

Sadly, it’s all about the money!

You disgust me.