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Dublin: 3 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Property tax could be fairer than household charge – ESRI

The ESRI has criticised the temporary household charge, saying that they levy imposed “the greatest percentage losses on those with very low incomes”.

Image: Barry Batchelor/PA Wire/Press Association Images

A PROPERTY TAX could be fairer than the household charge if it was designed to protect those on low incomes and to put the greatest burden on those with the highest incomes, the ESRI has said.

After carrying out initial calculations on how a property tax might work, ESRI researchers said the impact of a property tax on low income groups could be cushioned by the use of an income exemption limit.

Researchers said this approach could be combined with reductions in the amount of tax payable by people living on incomes just above the exemption limit.

The ESRI suggested an income exemption limit of €15,000 for a single person, or €25,000 for a couple, saying that this would result in “little impact” on the poorest one-third of the population.

Similarly, it suggested that no property tax be paid by pensioners who rely wholly on the State pension, or by those whose incomes – from social welfare or other sources – are at or below the State pension level.

Researchers criticised the temporary household charge, saying that it imposed “the greatest percentage losses on those with very low incomes”.

Researchers said that, for example, under the new property tax most homeowners would be charged about €2.50 for every €1,000 of house value annually. They calculated that this method of taxation would raise around €500 million for the Exchequer – which is roughly the amount the government has indicated it is seeking from the tax.

The ESRI says the figures show that those on the highest incomes would pay the greatest percentage of income – on average just under 1 per cent of their disposable income.

Researchers were very critical of the possibility a single tax rate being aplied to property values nationwide – pointing out that homeowners in Dublin would have to pay “considerably more” than homeowners in the rest of the country. “In fact, the share borne by Dublin homeowners would be higher not only than Dublin’s share of population, but higher than its share of income or income tax,” the body noted in a statement.

Report author, Professor Tim Callan, said: “Under the agreement with the Troika, the Irish government has committed itself to introducing some form of property tax. There are several key choices to be made in the design of the tax. These will affect how the burden of a property tax is allocated across income groups and across regions. Our analysis helps to inform debate on these topics.”

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Comments (81 Comments)

  • What’s disposable income, sounds like something I’d like to have.

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  • Did we really need the ESRI to tell us this? You never know, flat-tax Phil might take a bit of notice now it’s in a report that no doubt cost a fair bit to produce #facepalm

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  • Still waiting on the media and journal.ie’s banner to read “1 million won’t pay temporary unjust household tax” yes that’s “Over 1 million people wont pay this temporary household tax which is being used to pay of debts the people never asked for” or you could just simply put a banner off “Over half the population won’t pay this new property tax” a few others “Well over 50% won’t pay household tax” … ” Over a million people can’t be wrong” nice to see one of these for a change and not the propoganda counter we have been seeing every day.

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  • What about people that already pay maintenance charges, plus now an additional €300 on top of that this year for the government imposed “sinking fund”, and now a property tax!

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    • Government keep saying that property taxes are to pay for local services! How come their was no mention of property taxes before the bailout? Why don’t they just call it by its real name!! “Gambling debts tax”!!!!

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    • B7584 18/04/12 #

      @Louise im really looking forward to see what happens with property management fees too.
      There is no way im paying a property tax to pay for bins etc etc and then pay a private company for bins aswell.
      Property management fees are going to have to be seriously looked at. I suggest you get involved in your complex agms and get on the board of directors and start making noise about getting the PM fees reduced, after all PMC’s work for the owners.

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  • Can’t see how you can introduce a value based property tax in a country with a non existent property market.

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  • ESRI Recommend setting the tax @ €2.50 for every €1,000 the property is worth…..And just who exactly will determine how much my property is worth, in order to determine how much I should be paying? Is this “Worth” valculated based on the market value of property? Which means when the market rises again i’ve to pay more tax.

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  • I have mo problem paying property tax to help with services. But in our town our fire station wad closed, our library last were, we have no street clearers, and now it’s rumoured that the Garda station is next. The roads are a disgrace after the bad weather two years ago takes all you concentration to drive. So I ask you were are our services?! I live out the country with no street lighting. Have a septic tank which more tax is no required, a water metre is next, how much mire do they think we can take??????

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    • Apologies that should read our library closed last week. Predicative text a bitch.

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    • Well said Anne. I live in rural area with part time Garda station which is probably due for closure; the road surfaces are abysmal, no street lighting, a septic tank I’ve recently had to update with a new system costing well over 5K, and incidentally I was told by the Enviromental Agency when I informed them that raw sewage was overflowing into the local stream, to get back in touch with them if any of my neighbours complained! I kid ye not! I have water pressure that is very poor, the water supply is often off and when we do get a trickle it’s brown and undrinkable so we have to buy bottled water constantly for EVERYTHING……talk about a third world country! Cheeky bleeders want MORE money? It’s all just to go towards paying off the Banks gambling debts and more fool us if we swallow it.

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  • Absolutely Louise. I live in an apartment in town with no gardens or parking space. My property management fees are €1700 per anum. That’s for bins and building care. I have no problem paying because i knew the cost when I bought my apartment and budgeted accordingly. An after the fact tax however I did not budget for.

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  • Can’t wait to not pay that one either. “Your honour i quite simply would not have purchased my property had i been aware that I would be liable to pay a tax that go’s towards services i never use. I walk to work so don’t use public transport. I have private health care. Big bills and big mortgage. The people paying 20 euros a week for a house off you are exempt and I guarantee i cost you less to keep then them your honour.”

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    • Listen, the tax is badly organised, but everyone uses some services. What do you walk on to work? A public footpath? Where are your relatives buried? A public burial ground?

      Even if you use nothing, would you not contribute to services for others? Ireland isn’t all “me me me” I hope.

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    • Well put Thomas, I would never have bought my apartment if I was told that a tax on me for not been a spunger from the state was going to apply.
      I also would have asked “what’s stamp duty” because I thought that was me paying my property tax up front.

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    • C’mon Thomas,
      the current taxation system is based entirely on the principle that the less you use public services, the more you are expected to pay towards them.
      Thus it has ever been.

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    • We already pay for all of those services …..
      Stop foolng yourself this is a way to bring all the ”economies ” of the eu on to a data base and equate one one economy with the rest of Europe . A sad and well worn arguement, but none the less true…..

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    • Listen. I pay enough tax to go towards amenities and services without my property being taxed to pay for them too. Over a week of my monthly wage go’s on tax. You are quite welcome to pay more for crettins. I am unwilling. Me Fein.

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    • Thomas, leaving aside for a minute the fact that you appear to have no understanding of the function or place of courts in society, you are completely blind to the big picture. If we can work towards a system where local services are paid for specifically we can then have better funded and more efficient local government. You’d never have to listen to the excuse of budget constraints because they wouldn’t be relying on the government for the budget. Overall it would be a more efficient and accountable system.

      And I hope you are never unfortunate enough to lose your job. You’d be dealing with some serious self loathing issues if you needed assistance from the state.

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    • Self loathing issues ? What are you on about ? The man has already said he pays his taxes . Get a grip and wake up to the real issuea of property tax and HHC . A data base ….. A list making data bank ….. .

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    • Susie I’m referring to his views on people receiving social welfare assistance and his Me Fein attitude. I wouldn’t have thought you would agree with this stance.

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    • Jeff 18/04/12 #

      Any up for Real Reform of the state to a smaller government, Cutting services & public sector pay & sell state assets / companies and cuts to social welfare… & cutting taxes, I am sick of constantly been send the bill for everything.

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    • I don’t know how you do it !? . He does not have a me fein attitude , no more than I have . We have been ripped from the inside out and the government still want more from us . I have not agreed with you on this comment (i was getting worried my standards had dropped :) )

      P Wurple ; When my Father died ( may he rest in peace ) we paid to the co council to have his grave opened !!!
      AND
      Most people drive or use public transport and ROAD TAX dear girl pays for that use of facility !!!

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    • Are you acting dumb Susie or are you not readin posts? His post specifically says “Me Fein” and that he doesn’t want to pay taxes to support others.

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    • Are you seanbeag or SeanBeag ?
      I have already pulled you up on the name calling . Please exercise some discipline .
      You read the posts and try it with some intelligent interpretaion this time. Have a nice afternoon and learn some manners when you are addressing people and refrain from personal insults . THank you Seanbeag or Sean Beag !!!!

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    • I’m both. Sometimes it posts from Twitter and sometimes from Facebook. his post is quite clear but I’m sure you only see what you want when you read them. Don’t see where i called you a name either. Perhaps you are imagining it too?

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    • P Wurple 18/04/12 #

      Susie the guy says he is a Me Feiner in his post. What’s the dispute?

      Road tax of 500 euro or so doesn’t come near covering the road maintenance, public lighting, signage, markings, litter, verge cutting and all the other things that take place. And how is it fair that only car users pay for everything anyway… all residents use the public paths and roads. Whether they cycle or walk, they can’t flap their arms and fly over the roads.

      Yes you pay for a grave to be opened. What about the grass cutting, trees, lighting, litter collection and maintenance of the grounds. The person who looks after records and manages where new graves go?

      I live in Cork, here is the list of services
      http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/A-Z?did=692837670
      From beaches to halting sites, playgrounds and affordable housing, dog wardens… etc etc.

      To me, it’s fairer that people in Donegal aren’t paying for services that only people in Dublin get. But I understand if people disagree and believe that the PAYE system is fairer.

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  • Using the ESRI calculations this would mean a tax of €100 per month for my house. There goes food I guess

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    • Same as.. I’ll be out on the street.. Most people don’t mind paying something .. Including me, same as the rest of European countries. But i cancelled my health insurance last week..I’ve nothing else to give to be honest.. The car has to go I suppose .. Bought a diesel 4yrs ago thinking it’d be cheaper but the road tax has finished us entirely… I dunno

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  • alan 18/04/12 #

    Er! So €100 is unfair but €400 to €1000 is fair, am I missing something here..

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  • If people want a ‘Property Tax’ based on income rather than paying for the services provided then just call it Income Tax and be done with it. A ‘Progressive’ tax to pay for for local services makes as much sense as a ‘progressive’ bin charge or ‘progressive’ price for milk. This is just disguised Income Tax.

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  • Where I live we do not have a garda station – zero police presence, no library and a main road that you’d find hard put to replicate even if you had a jackhammer to use and all day to use it! It’s been that way for almost two years now. So where are these great services? I despair of the fg / labour fan boys who just seem to think that every move Enda & co make is some genius like strategy. Where’s the 5 point plan now?

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  • @Gary – that’s what this government do with your hard earned money – dispose of it!! Hope that clarifies!!!

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  • MOST homeowners face property tax bills of between €400 and €1,000 a year under plans drawn up by the Governments’s own economic think-tank.

    Those with houses worth €160,000 — now the national average — will have to pay €400 a year.

    And families with homes worth €300,000 face a €750 annual bill while those with a home worth €400,000 would be hit with a €1,000 bill.

    The Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) has calculated that setting the tax at €2.50 for every €1,000 the property is worth would raise Taoiseach Enda Kenny’s target figure of €500m per year.

    This is three times more than the current €100 household charge will bring in.

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    • And just who is going to value a house these days. With ‘expert groups ‘ saying property values are plummeting almost monthly ! A point that seems to be conveniently ignored by government.

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  • So theres no point in buying a house at all now! Was hoping to do it this year or early next but with all these taxes, whats the point? You struggle to save for a deposit and then they want another couple of grand off us, its ridiculous! I’ll stay renting thanks.

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  • Neil 18/04/12 #

    The word “fairer” here means what’s exactly? Fairer to who? If it means that householders will be paying a rate well in excess of the current €100, who is that fairer to?

    Just because someone’s house is valued higher than someone else’s, does not mean that they can afford a higher property tax rate.

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  • It would be an income tax then, not a property tax. This country doesn’t know what it wants.

    So as usual the career welfare people pay nothing again in this country.

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  • finbar m 18/04/12 #

    I have no problem paying a property tax once its a fair one why should I pay the same for my two bed as a person with a 8 bed

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    • Because you are receiving the same local services. The charge is allegedly to provide these local charges. Why do you pay the same for your bin charges just because you produce the same amount of rubbish?

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  • ”Similarly, it suggested that no property tax be paid by pensioners who rely wholly on the State pension, or by those whose incomes – from social welfare or other sources – are at or below the State pension level”
    So tgax the contributing ”poor” yet again ! I give up !!!

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  • Sean Beag. I have no option but to say Me Fein. I pay my tax. A weeks work a month deducted at source. I bought my property for €310,000 and its now worth €180,000. I put 15% of my money down about 50,000. I worked and i bloody saved and ate koka noodles everyday for 3 years because i was single and work on commission and the banks would give me nothing. I got a fixed rate 45 year mortgage at 5.9% for 5 years. 2 left. I have credit debts. And i am working on my day off today. I don’t expect help from anyone. But i will not pay for others. So yes. Me Fein unfortunately.

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  • The household charge certainly is unfair, since only the civic minded are eligible to pay.

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  • Mr egg. I completely understand the function of courts in society. Their purpose and function is to provide justice and uphold the law of the land dealing out penalties when the laws are broken. Government officials exempt of course. They on the other hand have what is called a tribunal and we all know how they work. Don’t we? We pay for them. i lost my job twice. I have been out of work more than a month on both occasions so had no need to draw dole. I pay my tax to provide for such an occurace and don’t take advantage. More than a few people capable of work simply don’t. We pay to keep em.

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  • dave 18/04/12 #

    As usually the people who have got themselves an education and worked hard all their lives worked for their family homes struggled to pay for them at times, to get a roof over their family’s heads will pay the price for doing so. While certain people who never wanted to take advantage of free education and work for a living get a free role to live off the state and our hard work get untouched and will never be asked to contribute back to the state making themselves unemployable.

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    • It mightn’t be obvious to you Dave, but there’s a huge shortage of jobs in this country! An education doesn’t guarantee a person a job anymore! Maybe we should round up those “certain people” and put them down or something? Personally I would rather the crooks and gamblers who got us into this mess were rounded up, and put down!!

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  • Can we just sell Ireland to the highest bidder….America owning us could be pretty good….make a condition of the sale that every adult above 18 gets 1 million euro on condition they buy 1 car every year for 10 years….thats people and motor industry sorted.

    Out of that million they must pay 1000 euro per year for 10 years….this covers local amenities and council taxes…thats the councils sorted.

    This could work………

    in all seriousness though….joking aside…..it could work…id rather be owned by anyone other than the Irish government……

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    • Didn’t we find oil and Gas recently? We probably be invaded by US and UK now looking for WOMD!

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    • We did….however we dont own it…the area is owned by the oil company….they are using new techniques that they previously didn’t know and now they found stuff.

      We will get some obviously but that will all go to debt and bill…certainly wont make fuel any cheaper.

      An on the topic of WMD i think we should be using Nuclear fuel…its way cleaner and way safer than mining and petrochemical plants. Yes when they do go bad….its bad but thats rare….although dont let the government near them they’ll will tender them off too the lowest bidder and they will fall apart

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  • Raise a property tax based on the income of the householder.
    Why not just increase income tax and no need for yet another state body?

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  • Great, another incentive for those on social welfare(career welfare collectors) never to find a job for fear they may have to pay a property tax but then again they will probably be exempt. Remember that the UK charges council tenants council tax. If its going to be fair then make it fair.

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  • jimbo 18/04/12 #

    Ask me hoop

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  • The whole point of a property tax is that it is a tax on property. It prevents the unproductive (property speculators, the unemployed) from inflating property to levels that can cause a serious property crash. Granting exemptions will undermine this. If granny can’t afford to live in her 5 bed detached on her pension, she will just have to downsize. This will release her house to someone else with greater need, eg a family.
    As an interim measure, some income related break may be needed but it must only be temporary.

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  • Most of you people voted Fg/labour now you have to pay for your sins………

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    • They didnt mention any of this in their manifesto.

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    • I voted FG but I will never again. They lied to us to get in and screwed us.

      I’m all for fair taxes, everyone paying their way but remember these same ministers that are imposing water chargers, house hold tax and property tax on us are the same ones that exempt themselves from the house hold tax. So we have to pay, they don’t. Is that fair?

      Well said Ciara!

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    • I am a fool! A fool to believe that not one red cent would go to paying bond holders, that reform would happen in the government, that Ireland would be working, that it would be labours way and not Frankfurts way!! I am a fool and I stand corrected for believing these lies, never and I mean never will my vote go to either FG or Labour!!!
      Never and one thing I say to them…I’m voting NO in the referendum!! And I’m not lying!!

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    • I had high hopes for the election and was glad that labour got into coalition as I wrongly assumed that they would keep FG in check and really bought into the promises/lies…alas all we got was a carbon copy of all previous administrations- arrogant, self centred, career politicians who reneged on every promise and are now acting like dictators….FG i half expected to be aloof and out of touch but labour really have shown themselves up for what they are – cowardly quislings to the most unfair and downright arrogant administration ever to set foot in the Dail.

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    • Ryan We are in good company :)
      I am a FOOL too, but no more . I WILL NEVER VOTE LAB/FG/FF ever again ( I never voted ff) But they are traitors one and all.
      I believed that they would do right by us. I was thrilled when they got elected .Ha Ha hysterical disappointment …… We were all taken for fools but no more and while I am at it I want to call on Phil Hogan’s resignation . His comments on the water charges are nothing short of appalling . I mean how many negative adjectives can one man conjure up

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    • Not all of us…

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  • Can’t see it coming in based on the property value it more than likely be site value. More spin again just like the water metres the other day about having to pay €300 for the metre to be installed and it turned out there will be a standing charge on the bill.

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