Draconian policies against drug use in New York and Glasgow helped push HIV rates over 50% in both places. More “user friendly” approach in Liverpool [three strikes and you’re out, free syringes, heroin substitute and condoms) and in the same period kept it down to 3% or so. Cannot find article now. Point being that legalizing activities related to drugs and prostitution is a better deal all around and reduces pressure on the prison system.

Legalise it then treat it like any other business then it has to follow rules and regulations maybe iso accredited , and would be properly policed more tax coming in and less women being trafficked.

@ Dave,

Many reports may be state-sponsored or religious sponsored and may have an agenda as being intended for jurisdictions where prostitution is illegal and so will “do down” the life experienced by the prostitute, but many, many studies refer to widespread drug abuse by participants in The Life.

The received wisdom in the States may be read here -

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_35/ai_53390350/

“James, alluding to data from an unpublished 1976 manuscript, stated that “Prostitution follows addiction in 48% of the subjects, precedes it in 38%, and is simultaneous in 14%” (James, 1977).”

“Silbert and colleagues interviewed 200 street prostitutes in San Francisco and reported that mean age at coital debut was 13.5 years, 16.1 years for prostitution debut (13 years for juvenile prostitutes and 18 for adults), and 16.9 years for entry into regular prostitution activity (Silbert & Pines, 1982). They subsequently reported that nearly all (95%) in their sample provided histories of illicit drug use. Of these, more than half (55%) admitted to drug use prior to prostitution entry and 30% subsequent to (15% concurrent with) prostitution entry, although ages at substance abuse milestones were not reported (Silbert, Pines, & Lynch, 1982).”

If these statistics translate into the Irish context, then sustance abuse and prostitution go hand in hand and childhood sexual abuse may be a more significant factor than was noted previously. Such an environment leads to poor self image, poor conception of self worth and leaves the person in such a state vulnerable to suggestion, coercion and exploitation.

The idea of the “happy prostutite” Bree Daniels in Klute played by Jane Fonda seems to be the exception rather than the rule and justifications of the existence of such women by men based on hearsay appear to be merely a salve for their conscience and ego.

That study refers to street prostitutes only. The street sector is a small minority of the overall amount of prostitution, and is usually found in studies to be demographically different from other sectors. You CANNOT extrapolate from one sector to another or to prostitution as a whole. It simply is not accurate to do so.

Feel free to properly rebut not by posting anecdotes or opinions but by posting a survey of non-street prostitutes Wendy.

I fail to see where the location changes the profile, unless your suggesting that its the profile that changes the location.

Women making money on the side by turning to prostitution is a well known demographic anecdotally, but I can’t find anything substantive on it because I suppose, most of these women do not consider themselves professional prostitutes nor do they see what they do as prostitution.

If you’re suggesting there is now a recognized industry defined by location and that the demographics of this is different to ordinary prostitution please post proof.

The recent lurid court cases about the exploitation of girls by pimps and madames working from houses doesn’t suggest the basic demographics have changed all that much.

Therefore you may be referring to an intrinsic difference – are there studies supporting this?

BTW Dave O’Shea’s comments which I attempted to rebut made no distinction but did refer to “escorts”.

I suspect there are several different market sectors from the street walkers in the poorer parts of town, via the lap dancers in clubs who occassionally say yes, to the €2000 a night excorts (I guessed the rate, I don’t know) and its possible there are demographic changes.

Its important to define these I know but I don’t have access to detailed recent studies.

See for example the Christchurch School of Medicine study on decriminalisation in New Zealand, “The Impact of the Prostitution Reform Act on the Health and Safety Practices of Sex Workers”. It found that 52.3% of street workers got into sex work to support a drug habit whereas only 14.3% of managed brothel workers did. That’s a pretty statistically significant difference. Furthermore, 45.1% of street workers were staying in the industry to support their habit while only 10.7% of managed brothel workers were. All of the qualitative research in that study is broken down by sector and there are very clear differences in their answers to a number of questions.

The study by Suzanne Jenkins of Keele University into the escort sector, “Beyond Gender”, also found very low levels of drug use in that sector.

These are just a couple examples.

Very interesting Wendy.

Please could you post the links.

I have the reports here in hard copy. Google is your friend.

Hard to post links to this forum.

Well I’ve given you the titles so you should be able to find the reports yourself. You don’t need me to Google them for you.

I posted them an hour before your commented but in some cases they show in others links and the posts they’re in don’t show.

@ Stephanie,

The opening line of my comment below wasn’t intended as a rebuttal to your argument about the lack of support in the report for the claimed rise made. :)

I think you should give some background on who Ruhama is, who set it up and who funds it. Just to put their spurious ‘statistics’ in perspective. I’m all for helping women who don’t want to be in prostitution to get out of it, and of course assisting any women who were trafficked. But that is not the true agenda of this insidious NGO.

I’ve posted a brief review of them below.

Their address (Berties’ mentors, by the looks of it)

Their “Members Profile”

Their misuse of the “UN Convention of 1949″ to justify their stance on prostitution.

Thanks for the heads up Tom.

@ Aedin,

It is no credit to the Journal merely to repeat what other organs have written.

You haven’t exposed Ruhama for what it is nor commented on its support structure for what it does both in terms of Real Life and ideological.

You haven’t suggested a better way of dealing with the issues surrounding prostitution.

Where is the critical analysis, the journalistic discernment in this piece?

Cheers Ed – Ruhama has bothered me for a while and I am very pleased to see here that I’m not the only one with grave reservations about them.

Ed, just to clarify because it’s something that’s come up a couple of times in this forum, Ruhama represents women only.

Aedin, thank you for your clarification. However, I was pointing out that prostitution is NOT confined to women only, Ruhama makes sweeping statements like “95% of prostitutes are drugs users ” etc, how can it say that if they only represent women? Also I ask the question as to why they are not involved with male prostitution and lets face it, we all know why, as a catholic group their attitude to homosexuality is not going to see them extend their ‘support’ to that section of society. I think you could have been a bit more balanced by saying who exactly this Ruhama org. are and what they are all about. Most of their board members are ether nuns or people who have links to or work for/with other catholic organisations, Ruhama cannot be relied upon to be objective in their reporting given their own agenda. The article does come across as being factual when in reality ,it is only THEIR views on a section of prostitution in Ireland and how credible it is is open to question.

http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=138

Ruhama Trustees and Board of Directors
Trustees
Sisters of Our Lady of Charity (O.L.C.)
Good Shepherd Sisters (R.G.S.)

Board of Directors
Chairperson: Ms. Valerie Judge
Company Secretary: Mr. Peter O Neill
Sr. Sheila Murphy, O.L.C.
Sr. Bernadette Mc Nally, R.G.S.
Mr Diarmaid O Corrbui
Dr. Mary Scully
Mr Colm O Dwyer
Ms. Catherine Joyce
Sr. Frances Robinson, O.L.C
Ms. Rachel Milum
Ms. Catherine Nolan

The Swedish way isn’t working either, according to Swedish sex workers.

It also isn’t working according to the Swedish equivalent of Ruhama (minus the Catholic element):
“Linsen Lindstrom, a counsellor at the Stockholm prostitution unit helps about 60 prostitutes each week. She said the law has not had an impact on problems of addiction, violence and exploitation she and other staff hear about each day.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11437499

There is a third alternative you haven’t mentioned – the New Zealand decriminalisation model.

Lazy readers appreciate links and if you’re going to raise a new subject its useful to give your own views on it.

Many are, Michael. Many are. I’m not judging them, but what u say is true.

I don’t know the answer to that, but it has been demonstrated (in Sweden and elsewhere) that enforcement-based drops in demand lead to drops in prices. With the consequences that sex workers have to see more clients, and engage in more risky behaviour, in order to make a living. This is a big part of the reason that “end demand” strategies actually harm the women they are supposed to help.

Good point, Wendy. And men, too. Postitution includes men. They are just as affected as women.

Yes Declan, I said “women” because for some reason the people who advocate these laws only do so with women in mind.

it’s a fact of life that men( not all men) have always and will always be willing to pay for sex, one way or another if a man hasn’t found what he wants/needs by the end of the night he can depending on his moral persuasions and level of intoxication seek out such services. Others will use them because they can afford to and it allows them to do things with a woman/ have things done to them that they might not do with their wife/girlfriend or any woman they respect and see on a day to day basis.

@ Wendy,

That’s as bad a justification for anything as I’ve ever heard.

If the profession was legalized and taxed would we be hearing the same argument?

Sorry Michael, I’m not sure what you’re asking?

Reducing demand leading to longer working hours arises because the net income per week drops.

What would happen if the profession was legalised and taxed – nett income would fall.

Well, you’re assuming the price remains constant after legalisation. What if it increases?

If the market could stand a price increase due to tax then could it not stand a price increase when demand fell? Higher unit costs to balance lower numbers of units sold?

I think I’ve lost you there Micheal… If a large portion of clients stop looking for prostitutes, supply will be greater than demand, hence the drop in prices. Legalisation would presumably not cause demand or supply to rise or fall, so would not affect prices, outside of taxation and the potential for “minimum wage” etc.

First of all the increase (hypothetical) wouldn’t necessarily be due to tax. Secondly, no, if you have less demand for what you’re selling that gives an advantage to the buyer, not to you. Raising your prices to compensate for reduced demand will only reduce demand further. That’s simple logic – and it’s also the actual experience of sex workers (at least those on the street, who are most likely to be affected by “end demand” policies) in jurisdictions where the law has cracked down on clients – either through outright criminalisation, as in Sweden, or through “kerb-crawling” policies as in Britain.

When you’re supplying something that people consider to be essential then there is a going rate and a maximum number of clients who can be accommodated.

Increasing the price doesn’t arise as its a not an auction, its a first come first served situation as I understand it, but no doubt Wendy can clarify.

Having said that I suspect that it was the argument side of the campaign that may have contributed to the drop in price to which she referred.

It’s only a “first come first served situation” when sex workers are so desperate for clients that they have to take what they can get. And in those situations – which police crackdowns often create – it’s usually the buyer not the seller who names the price. Which makes the price lower.

I don’t know what you mean by “the argument side of the campaign”.

Before the pressure same on the profession I expect there was a lot of social awareness of the issues in the broader sense, which would have had a negative impact on the level of trade regardless.

I’m not aware of any evidence that “social awareness of the issues” has any effect whatsoever on the volume of trade.

That makes no sense!