Government does not care, there are people in this country who where forced adopted and are still trying to find their birth parents who have all been denied the right to know who they are.

The Government through economics has been attacking families in all the same ways you have stated and with the referendum families will get the blame for the actions of Government, families who through no fault of their own will be labelled abusers because they are having a hard time paying bills, This is an adoption referendum and not based on rights.

The above article is just one case when in reality kids do not want to be taken from their parents and until the people voting yes recognise that nothing will change, if this passes Government will have a get free card when ever it is determined to have failed as it always has in the past “What happened with the Church, Child prostitution released through wikileaks “which Government knew about” but every time it had the chance to do something they chose not to.

Children are protected by law but when the law is not being upheld the bad situations happen!

I’m Voting No!

we have just had our application for fostering turned down after 12 month’s of courses, home visits, interviews, garda checks etc, we were told that in the opinion of the social worker we “did not meet their requirements”, we are a married couple (25yrs married) we have no children of our own and for the last 5 yrs have been involved with a children’s charity including having children stay in our home for a month at a time, my wife is a former care worker with experience of caring for the elderly, mentally handicapped and physically handicapped children, i have been involved in running children’s sports clubs in the u.k for over 10 yrs, we had good references from friends whose children we have looked after in the past and a clear garda and uk police record (otherwise we would not be allowed to work with the childrens charity) , we have a good clean home with plenty of space and 2 spare bedrooms, a large garden, away from any main roads or traffic dangers, yet the social worker seemed more interested in the fact that we were only renting the house and that i am on an invalidity pension, even though we had letters and medical clearance from my doctor and consultants, we were given the option of an appeal against their decision, but we were told that it would have very little chance of being reversed as the panel consists of the head of the social work team along with other ‘experienced professionals’ . our friends and family can not believe we were turned away, all we wanted to do was give a child a chance in life, a decent home, good food and a warm safe place to sleep, the fostering and adoption process in Ireland seems to be based more on your financial status than your ability to care for a child, we had previously looked into adoption but were told that you have to have at least 30k in your bank to cover expenses for the “agency’s and legal fees”. the biggest laugh of all is that the ‘senior social worker’ (after telling us we were not suitable) actually came out and said ” we can see that you would be great with the children and that you could give them a loving, stable home, any child would be lucky to be placed with you”. to my mind the H.S.E and therefore the state are not fit to run these services, their whole selection process seems to be based on finances ,not the “best interest of the child” as they keep saying. the same authority is currently running a ‘recruitment’ campaign looking for foster careers for up to 4ooo children, maybe a yes vote will change things ,but while these ‘textbook’ social workers are making the major decisions i doubt it very much.

@ Eric. I think you’re right. In Ireland money talks louder than anything else. There are many families like your own who are shut out of fostering/adopting needful children based ONLY or the amount of income coming into the home. It’s as if the fostering services are saying that only the rich can provide for children! Yet it was the richest people (and the largest property holders) in Ireland that abused thousands upon thousands of children in the Institutions! Perhaps theses services should read up on the Ferns, McCoy, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne reports!

Surely the appeals process does not include (on the panel) anyone associated with the decision to deny you? If so there might be personal, professional and/or institutional loyalty involved and, if so, it’s against that recommendation (7.06) in the Ryan Report that the child’s needs MUST be put above all that! http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/04-07.php

Why are you talking in the third person!? Trying to suggest something rather than speak from experience you did after all say you where in care!

SO well said Jenni. VOTE YES!

Give some examples? Its always easier to look at someone else and say they are in the wrong while never questioning your own up bringing!
Ever get spanked as a kid? that’s known as child abuse now!

In both the Roscommon case and the Baby C the state failing was that did not interfere in time (rather than that the parents were blameless). So while I absolutely agree with you that the referendum is not enough, how can empowering best interests of the children over parents be a bad thing?

Its cant be a bad thing and i know the parents were completely at fault but In the Roscommon case the state had been involved with the family for years while the children were being abused and neglected before they acted and while I agree with you that the child’s rights should be placed above others I still think that unless there’s going to be accountability for every child in the states care then it leaves way too much room for the system to be abused. I think children should be placed with another family member first ie an aunt grandparent before they are taken into care because as it is at the minute they’re just another name in the system without anybody really looking out for their welfare and that’s why so many children have died and gone missing over the last decade without anybody getting so much as a slap on the wrist for it.

I agree with you – care is not the best place for children. If children are in families which cannot care for them, then adoption should take place as soon as possible. But this referendum would actually move children out of care into adoptive families.

I still think there need to be some many issues sorted out before all this power is given to the state e.g. a parent is an addict and neglects their child the state moves in and the child is taken into care and adopted, the parent gets a major kick in the ass from this and sorts their life out and now has the capability to look after their child again they want the child back and the child wants to be back with them, is the adoption going to be reversed?? Do they have to adopt their own child?? I think there is so much more work to be done before we had over power to the state, this referendum needs to be the continuation of children’s rights not the start of them.

As far as I know the reason the roscommon case went on so long was because the parents rights to maintain family were protected in constitution but the kids rights were not

@sharon the family involved in the Roscommon case were known to the HSE back in 1989 and after all the reports and visits 2 the house it wasn’t until July 04 when 1 of the children asked 2 be put into care that the HSE finally acted, and even with the reports of sexual abuse reports to both the HSE and gardai it wasnt until October 04 that they finally took the other children into care, it had nothing to do with the family being protected in the constitution. With so many mistakes goin on within the HSE I would hate to see any child put into their care, as I’ve said before they need to sort out all the problems they are having with the children they already have before taking on anyone else. If something happens to my child when she’s with me I have to take responsibility for her the same with her child minder when I’m in work so why would I give the state all this power when they haven’t taken proper care of the children they already had allowing 700 children to die/go missing in just 10 years

Sharon, that is simply a myth perpetuated by the “YES” campaign. The mother of the children got an Ex Parte injunction (where only one side is heard) but it was the failure of the HSE to return to court to have this injunction overturned, which could have been done in a couple of days.

Why?

Vote No, there are laws already to protect children which the state never enforces, we only have to look at all the abuses through the church which Government knew and did nothing about.

The problem is not the constitution its the lack of law enforcement all of the death in state care and no justice for those children has been given.

The state if this referendum passes will be guardian making all parents child minders and all parents will be blamed on hardship though economics created by the state!

Continue being a fool, look at the past in this very country and see how the state knew and allowed rape and abuse through the Church “Murder, Rape and Abuses”

Also through the files released through wikileaks the Government knew about child prostitution who had been in care which the state had full knowledge of and did nothing!

Your really going to push a yes vote thinking your Government loves you? Are you a stoner hippy?

@Tiarnán, how do you explain then that for every 184 cases that there is only ONE Criminal prosecution? are the Gardai and DPP letting away child abusers?

Or that the HSE say there were 541 “Confirmed” cases of sexual abuse of children last year but the DPP only had 39 prosecutions? Are the HSE letting off 500 Child sex predators a year?

Or the fact that the HSE took 2,300 children into “Care” last year, a 103% increase on the year before? To put that figure in perspective, the HSE took 3.7 TIMES more children into “Care” per capita than the UK last year and the UK Public are demanding an enquiry into why so many were removed when the prosecution for child abuse and neglect have not increase in decades.

The State has a financial interest in implementing Forced Adoption rather than paying €500,000 per child from 0 to 18 they can just pay €50,000 to get them adopted. If there was any scrutiny of this system they would stop children being taken into “Care” on a fraudulent basis in most cases.

You cant hide the fact that this is an industry that feeds on children and if the numbers drop, that many jobs will be on the line. This is a Billion a year Industry not a system for protecting children. Barnardos annual budget is €25 Million a year and 63% comes from the Government.

There are 2 Child Protection Systems in Ireland. 99.5% of children are protected very well by their parents. 0.5% are “Protected” by a system described as “Not Fit for Purpose”, “A Child Protection System that does anything but”, and that’s just what the Minister and Judges are saying.

You sound like a real social worker the way you like to label people. When Ryan Report Two happens all of this dysfunction will be exposed, the Cradle Snatchers and the Child Protection Industry will be seen for what it really is, a Billion Euro money making racket for “Professionals”.

Well said I think some people are living in the past and not looking to protect the children of today , not saying what was done to the children in the past should be forgotten but it should not be used as a tool for no campaigners.The truth of the matter is the children of Ireland have no rights and the referendum gives them the rights they deserve as their own person and not just a part of the family unit and stop young people being brushed back and front between a safe home and an abusive family, the attention then will stop the family having their rights over a child in court and may actually get help to solve their problems to build a safe environment to raise a family not drag them up as is happening now

The Journal usually post an opposing opinion the following day….

Raymond are you alledging that foster carer’s are only in it for the money,can you back that up if that is what ypu believe?

Can you show figures for abuse in care versus abuse in “dysfunctional families”?

Can you back up these “facts”? Councils being paid 60 grand per child? This is bulls&@t scare tactics.
I work in the sector and I can tell you that no child is ever taken away for a fracture!!!
Multiple fractures, incidents, reports etc may warrant an investigation…the reason these rumours get out of hand is due to the privacy of family court…parents maybe taken to court to put an order in to take children into care in relation to a incident, but the fact is that there is a caseload of other incidents that have accumulated to bring the case to court.
If you are a good parent you don’t need to worry about this.
This is not about parents, but children!
Of course all children would prefer to be with their family…but there is nothing more upsetting seeing a child’s sadness and upset as knowing they have to go back to their abusive parents

My family fostered several young people (who at the time were about my own age) and it had a significant impact on my life. That impact was on the whole a very positive one.

I feel massively insulted that you would imagine that money was a primary motivator. Altruism was the reason that we tried to help. A 4 bedroom house where my older brothers had already moved on to their own families and people that needed a family environment.

To look at what happens or has happened in the UK is one thing, to assert that it is the future for Ireland is entirely another.

I agree that the system needs an overhaul…but is that your only argument for a No vote? There has to be a start made somewhere…you also have to look at the agencies who have children’s wellbeing in mind, who work with abused/neglected children on a daily basis, such as Barnardos and the ISPCC who are supporting this referendum. Does that not tell you something? I worked as a community nurse for several years and was appalled, shocked and broken hearted at the conditions some children are living in. Children need to have their opinions heard and know that they will be listened to. Have you read any of the articles on why a No vote should be carried? Bizarre stuff. For me it has to be yes.

Sarah , I agree. You could have added , though , that it is not just a case of seperating them from their families , but applying to have them legally adopted as well.

Eimer , please don’t throw out the ole ” look whos supporting it ” to give it any credence, those 2 charities you mention have a whole lot to gain from this financially , GAL services been one , that was worth almost 3 million to Barnardos last year alone , now with the agreement in place for Arc Adoption. to facilitate inter-countRy adoption between its other agencies abroad, they also along with the ISPCC have a terrible record in of caring for children , the ISPCC are responsible for the removal of 40% of the children who were sent to the Industrial schools , and Barnardos are facing upto a $600 million lawsuit in Canada for the sale and trafficking of children from Britian , they hardly make for good referees

Its actually not my only argument for a no vote. another argument for a no vote is the lack of transparency in this referendum, just as there was with the Lisbon Treaty. I would gladly give you a more thorough run down of the reasons to vote no, but they’re difficult to find, hidden well in a system that wants what it wants and will confuse people to get it. Immediately after reading your comment Eimer, I went to the website for the referendum, and all they had there was what the new Article would contain, not even so much as a comparison to what was there before! I wholly agree that a start needs to be made somewhere, but a change to the Irish Constitution, that so few people fully understand the (potential) implications of, in my opinion, is not a good place to start. Let’s see the government’s commitment to the children in their making changes to the system before they expect us to make the changes. I in no way claim to know all there is to know about this, but that’s just the point, the government aren’t putting enough information in front of me, for both sides of the vote.

Its actually not my only argument for a no vote. another argument for a no vote is the lack of transparency in this referendum, just as there was with the Lisbon Treaty. I would gladly give you a more thorough run down of the reasons to vote no, but they’re difficult to find, hidden well in a system that wants what it wants and will confuse people to get it. Immediately after reading your comment Eimer, I went to the website for the referendum, and all they had there was what the new Article would contain, not even so much as a comparison to what was there before! I wholly agree that a start needs to be made somewhere, but a change to the Irish Constitution, that so few people fully understand the (potential) implications of, in my opinion, is not a good place to start. Let’s see the government’s commitment to the children in their making changes to the system before they expect us to make the changes. I in no way claim to know all there is to know about this, but that’s just the point, the government aren’t putting enough information in front of me, for both sides of the vote. I’ll find it tho before the 10th. It seems yet again that ignorance is bliss in the eyes of the Irish government.

@Deasun you’re using arguments about ISPCC that occurred decades ago….hardly representative of the current organisation

@ Eimear Smith “the ISPCC [] are supporting this referendum.” Would that be the same organisation that ‘shovelled children’ into the Industrial Schools? The phrase ‘shovelled children’ was made by archbishop McQuaid of the Dublin Archdiocese in the 1950s – that archdiocese also had their issues concerning the well-being’ of the archdiocese. The ISPCC has yet to come clean on its heavy involvement in the physical & sexual torture of Irish children throughout the 20th. century. The only ‘well-being” the ISPCC is concerned with is it’s own!

There are many well meaning people willing to give their support to this referendum but bringing the ISPCC’s name into the equation – considering the shameful deeds it was involved in – is a bit bizarre! Did you know that some members of the ISPCC received bounties from the Church for each child they managed to snatch from their kith and kin and have consigned to the child slave camps?

I expect if the referendum is passed the ISPCC will have their ‘Cruelty Men’ scouring communities (poor and working-class communities of course) for children. It’ll be a nice-little-earner for them and the well-off can have free children without having to go through the messy sex thing or the heavy muscle strain of having to give birth themselves.

@ Eimear, you say to Deasun that “you’re using arguments about ISPCC that occurred decades ago….hardly representative of the current organisation”. But the ISPCC have done NOTHING to address what happened, no inquiry, no staff sanctions, no apology, nothing!!

Also, imagine someone criticizing the BBC about Jimmy Saville being told “you’re using arguments about BBC that occurred decades ago….hardly representative of the current organisation”! They’d be laughed at!!!

In relation to Barnardos, read http://equalityforfathersinireland.webs.com/apps/blog/show/19257290-what-are-barnardos-trying-to-hide-. Barnardos stand to gain millions if this referendum is passed but are censoring anyone who points this out.

How do Barnardos have the power to censor anyone?

I believe the taking a child from a married couple are false, in relation to foster care, after a certain amount of time and taking the best interest of the child into consideration the child could be then adopted. Also it is to prevent any more baby Ann cases happening where a child is given up for a adoption the parents change their minds but were denied getting their child back as it wasn’t in the best interest of the child, but when the parents then got married it was in the child best interest even though the child was then 2 and the only parents she had even known was her adoptive parents, but yes your right the church will prob want to vote no and keep abused children on their abusive homes.

got to agree with you on the h.s.e louise, it is badly run and badly managed,though the amount of allowance paid to foster carers is 312 euro per child per week ,not 370euro, this money is not for the career to use for themselves ,but is supposed to provide for the needs of the child in their care, from this money you (as a carer)are supposed to provide clothing, meals, school fees (they are not free) for books etc, you have to give the child spending /pocket money, but this should not include things like cosmetics, deodorants, or phone credit, these item should be purchased separately from the allowance , you also have to open a bank or savings account in the childs name, and a set weekly sum has to be deposited for the childs future use, i.e collage fund ,driving lessons, this savings book and account has to be handed over to the h.s.e if the child is returned to care or its natural parents, or is re-located within the system. even though 312 euro sounds lot, it is still much cheaper than the estimated 700 to 1200 euro per week per child to be kept in state accommodation, as i said in a previous post, with the oncoming cuts in the budget it is more than likely that even more parents will fall into poverty and the state will end up taking more children into care, it would make far more economic sense to support those families financially and keep them out of poverty rather than to remove the children into state care.

Are you a parent?
Have you ever heard of the word love? Do you have a niece/nephew or close friends child? If god forbid their parents pass away, would you only take on the children of you got money!!!!
If you were a child in foster care, which would make you feel more secure and loved….your way of thinking that the carers are in it for the money? Or that
your foster parents want to be your legal gaurdian for life, with no extra money? That when you turn 18 that your foster parents are still there for you.
Go meet a child in care. Listen to them, what they want and feel. You will change your mind.

Then you’re voting no for the wrong reasons. It’s not about parents ‘losing all their rights’ OR the hse exclusively. For the love of god people at least do some reading and research on what you’re voting for or against!

siobeli , no i am not a parent , yes i do have friends and relatives with children, most of whom we have at one time or another looked after, we also work with the Chernobyl children, and to be brutally honest with you i think that the allowance paid to foster careers, should be paid to them as a wage, not to them on behalf of the child as happens now . the present allowance is meant to be used to meet the needs of the child in care, but does not take into account all the ‘extra’ costs to those doing the caring, the extra cost of running a car to take the child to school,which may be many miles from where you live, to sports clubs and events, even to family visits, it does not take into account the extra costs at christmas and birthdays, child might want extra money to buy presents for its parents,friends and siblings, the people who foster children do so because they want to make a difference, believe me you wouldn’t put yourself through the process of becoming a foster career for a measly 300 euro a week , as i have said previously, it costs the state somewhere between 750 and 1200 euro per week to keep a child in state care, foster careers receive less than 50% of this when taking on a child. IT CERTAINLY IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY , but i believe they are doing a job for the state and should therefore be paid .

Eric,
The figures given by Louise were correct. The rates are as follows: For children aged 0 – 12 = €325.00, For Children aged 12+ = €352.00. (sourcehttp://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Children_and_Family_Services/Fostering/). The average between these two figures is €338.50. If Child Benefit of €140 per month (€32.30 per week) is factored in, the average weekly amount for fostering a child is €370.80.

Remember also, a single mother only gets €188 and €29.80 for each child + Child Benefit of €32.30 per week. SO, a foster family gets €370.80 to look after a child whereas a single mother gets €250.10 to look after her child? This is Big Business and costing the State a fortune.

great to hear a story like yours matt , 30 yrs a foster carer, its the likes of you that knows how frustrating the ‘system is, i have spoken to some people who have been foster carers long term and most of them tell me that it has gotten worse under the h.s.e than it ever was under the health boards, much more ‘interference’ and red tape, obviously things had to change due to all the abuse cases etc, but i found that the attitude of those in charge (social workers etc) to be very condescending, between looking after the children of family and friends and also through our work with various groups and charities we had far more experience with children than the young female social worker we were assigned had, yet none of this seemed to matter, these people seem to work on the basis of ‘if it aint in the guide book- it don’t exist’ or as i pre fare to call them ‘ textbook warriors’ the whole system needs to be changed, people like yourselves and experienced foster careers should have a bigger say on how things are done, not civil service pen pushers who dont know the first thing about these children or their lives.

One case is a reason? How many Children want to stay with their parents? not all adoptions are abuse cases most are cases which the State determined the parents to be at fault over financial situations, something that is wide spread at the moment!

Would you call a family abusers because they are out of work over the failures of Government?

Would that not be an arguement for making it easier for children to be adopted? Ideally, children with an unbearable home life with their biological family should be adopted as soon as possible, rather than left in care.

64% of all children in care come from single families and if adoption was the reason for this constitutional change why haven’t those 64% of children gone through the adoption process?

they don’t care about finding the 64% homes but they want us to believe that this referendum is to allow for the 36% to be placed for adoption , I mean seriously where is the bloody logic?
This whole referendum is a massive deception and people really really need to wake up and vote NO.

You will never forgive yourself for what is to come if you vote yes I promise you that !

and if 1 child dies then you have a reason to vote No, guess you have 196 reasons to vote No and 500 others as well.

Kevin, not only that, when children are “represented ” in court, their “voices” are represented by a Guardian ad Litem who most people will tell you is just another social worker working for the HSE. The Guardian is then represented by their own solicitor. So legally, the State in most cases is the Abuser, the Vindicator of the child’s rights and the opposer all rolled into one. Children in “Care” never have a voice and it is exceedingly rare that a judge will face a child so that the judge can abuse the child and have to see the damage they are doing.

If the Referendum passes it will essentially mean that every child’s rights will be vindicated by the State and opposed by the State at the same time.

Most people don’t have a clue what this is about, over 60% by one survey. The rights that parents will be giving up to an incompetent State will be the last nail in the coffin. This is teh most serious question we have ever been asked in a referendum and anyone who doesn’t understand it 100% MUST vote No and leave the Constitution as it is until they understand that it is about giving the right to the State to do what they like and call it “Best Interests”.

I agree with Cait, the referendum is about taking the necessary steps to give children constitutional rights that are valued and recognised. And from my interpretation it is about supporting parents and families, not taking away the rights of parents. The amendment will allow for earlier intervention, which, in-turn will provide for greater child protection in the long run.

I agree Cait this referendum is about the future, a future where families are ripped apart and children trafficked to abusers and pedophiles, what a bleak future it is too if this farce passes, I have seen shannons report on what he wants to legislate into family law and people you have no idea whats coming if you vote yes !

Michelle, WHAT?!!!

So what’s the alternative. Oppose everything the state ever does? Bury our heads in the sand? Who’s looking after the children then?

that. is the point WHO IS.
we have two parties that toggle in and out of power FF & FG neither cares about child poverity through boom and bust times.
Now wake up and realise there is a over abundance of couples seeking to adopt and a shortage of children to fill this market. so let the state not only make the decision to remove a child from it’s family but give it away to another couple.
wasn’t that long ago it was done here church took the rap… but it was law of the land with our police enforcing it. we are going backwards not forward

Tom can you please support this comment about FF and FG not caring about child poverty? Are you aware of Leanbh? The ISPCC’s programme dedicated to combating child poverty and child begging? True, the government gives the ISPCC a pittance, the company is pretty much kept afloat by the generosity of the public. Still, the paltry sum given by the government is put to good use and it’s better than nothing. I am not a fan of the Irish government but I wouldn’t accuse them of being ambivalent towards the safety of children. You also mention the abundance of parents looking to adopt and the shortage of children to fill this ‘market’. Currently there are over 6,000 children within the care system. 90% of them are in long term foster care. That’s a lot of children looking to be adopted. This idea of the state snatching children from their parents for no reason at all is ludicrous. People need to stop speculating and focusing on this Pied Piper fantasy of children being lured away away from their families. THIS IS NOT WHAT THE REFERENDUM IS ABOUT.

If you don’t trust the state, who do you think should take responsibility for child protection? Religious orders? Private operators? No one?

Can you name these cases??! How many children do you know that have been taken away from their parents without just cause?

No you can’t as all are held in private!unless you are a judge or social worker

And of course, no parent who have neglected or abuse their child are going to admit it!! Similar to all the majority of people in jail Who claim they were set up and are innocent!!!!!

If the state were trustworthy then of course i wouldnt have an issue. Too often social workers and their carefully chosen “experts” always stick together never admitting a mistake and fanatically eager to cover up rather than rectify any errors of judgement they have made, they always have eachothers back. You never get to here about it untill decades later, by then its too late. Now with forced adoption on the books.

I think the state should do a complete overall of child protection but this referendum is’nt the answer.

That would indicate that no child is ever returned to their families, Karla. Can you back that up with any kind of statistics?

Some children were returned others were not but if forced adoption is on the cards then once the child is adopted there is no going back. It wont matter that the social worker got it wrong or made a mistake the child will be gone, to vote yes would mean it WILL happen, children WILL be forcefully adopted.

karla, again you have been asked to back up these ‘allegations’ with facts.
how many children do you know who have been taken from their families when they shouldnt have been?…now dont throw out the usual ‘back in the 50s and 60s!’
I want to know how many kids have been taken away from their families when they shouldnt have been in the last 20 years or so?
have you read the new legislation in full? a child can be adopted in the case where there is total abandoment of that child for 3 years, ie no contact from the parent at all! parents who have children in are actively encouraged to see their children, even in the case of supervised access.
I have worked with some of the worst parents, and often social workers PAY for them to get taxi/transport and presents, to see their children!

could you understand why a parent would choose not to see their child?
I would say there are a few reasons,
1 they don’t care
2 they care too much, it breaks thier heart to see their child for 1 hour a week and build a defence mechanism a wall, a barrier to protect themselves, they love their child but it hurts too much to see them, that when they go home they cry for hours, to cope they stop seeing their child.

statistics? how many kids were kept in care when they should have been at home with their parents? I doubt very much social workers would keep those stats let alone make them public.

As for kids handed back to their patents after they were found to be fit parents, you tell me… if it’s 1 it’s 1 too many.

@siobeli ” you can’t if your not a judge or social worker” , do you mean by that you and the judge are not gagged by the in-camera rule the same way that it applies to parents , are parents not also present in the secretive courts and even though they are threatened with imprisonment for breaking this rule , they speak out , the child protection agency in Ireland is a festering sore , it is now attempting to re-model itself on the british system something the Geoffrey Shannon aludes to in his series of reports for government consideration , I know many people who have had their children removed for very flimsy reasons , and were treated very shabbily by the family courts

I believe if the parent speaks out there are in contempt of court. They are screwed if they do and screwed if they dont!

@ deasun….can you give a flimsy excuse that children have been taken off their children?

NO parent is going to admit to the mistreatment of their children….i have worked in the sector and seen the neglect first hand, with the parents swearing blind that ‘everyone is against me, the school, the judge, the social worker, the neighbour’….often failing to mention the wrong they have done their children! and often people will say ‘oh they have a good job, a house, involved in the community, they wouldnt do a thing to their child’!
why not talk to teachers, gardai, youth workers, who will tell you the difficulty of even reporting child neglect, and if it is even investigated
this is where the no campaign falls down, with throw away comments, with no facts to back up why one should vote no….forgetting it is about CHILDRENS rights, not parents! the no campaign are hell bent on the parents rights! the no campaign is all hearsay and articles from tabloids in the UK!

@karla, as a parent, i dont think you care too much, i know i would rather see my child for one hour per week, than not at all, it may break my heart and i would suffer for it.

That is you! Ever heard the term fight or flight?

For some its too stressful and their defence mechanism kicks in and take flight.

I would be a fighter, i would never give up, not every one is like me, just like everyone is not like you, you would be happy with 1 hour? would you REALLY be happy with one hour? or would you fight for more, look at every legal avenue possible, contact every legal firm there is for another opinion, even be in contempt of court and speak out and try and get your child back?

@ soibeli , one reason why a father lost his daughters when he had sole custody because mum was dead ? he owned and operated a headshop…, reason to snatch and grab children ?

Also , i would be careful in saying that teachers , gardai etc etc ,and are refusing to act on child abuse, as in their failure to report it to the proper authorities , surely that has been legislated against , even so there is a moral obligation involved , so are you aware of cases where children are in danger as you just said / , or did you just make that up , a trait social workers seem to have perfected

@deisun…my comment on talking to teachers etc, on the difficulty of reporting is that it not something that they take lightly and need to provide evidence. I know from my work the seriousness of making a report, and it is always the last resort, after every other avenue has been exhausted.
I’m sorry to hear your friend lost custody of his children, but I am making a assumption that other extended family members were involved in that case?

It is so refreshing to hear a true story of someone coming through a horrific childhood and going on to have to a very successful and happy life. I admire Wayne tremendously for his courage and for the fact that he has gone on to help others who have undergone similar experiences as himself through his work with the Irish Foster Care Association. He gives an emotive but strong argument for voting ‘Yes’. The tragic cases of Daniel and Tracey given are even more of a reason to vote ‘Yes’. In both cases, no one seemed to have to ever put their best interests first or asked them what they wanted or needed.

VOTE NO or you are voting to legalise child trafficking through the secret family courts

@ Michelle what are you on about educate yourself before you start spouting stuff that is clearly false my God did you even read this mans story a child who has been in the system if everyone started thinking about the children and stopped being so bloody paranoid about forced adoptions this and the other and you are not helping secret family courts!!!!

Louise i’m a foster carer here is some facts.The allowance is 312 under 12,350 over 12 plus monthly child allowance.The child in question recieves a full med card true but no school fees. You are expected to open an account.Finally it is also expected one parent is at home 24/7 not working.

Better to know your facts Louise then to make up your own.

yes side are very short on facts so kettle pot black jackie !

And what about Mc Cartney? Would he be proud too?..

The plot thickens..

As do some of the contributers here..

waffles how apt

the report that shannon wrote has admitted that they are setting up an early intervention foundation that is to be free from government control with private investor, that means one thing that they intend to profit off our kids

In Shannon’s report of what has to be implemented into law after the referendum, is neglect is to be classed as violence against children, and in a list of half a dozen possible neglects we can be charged with as parents is emotional harm , good parents in England have had there children taken from them and the charge against them was possible future emotional harm , I have a youtube clip from an Irish radio interviewing the mother about that happening to her!
http://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/publications/5RapporteurRepChildProtection.pdf
read the report of what they have in the plans for us its sick

2.3.1.7 An Early Intervention Foundation page 130

A key message of the report is that if local communities are to lead a pioneering early intervention effort and operate the programmes described, they must be able to act in freedom from central government control or interference, and also be free to raise money from the private sector. The report describes its “prime recommendation” as being the creation of a new, independent Early Intervention Foundation. This Foundation would be “created in the first instance through private, philanthropic, ethical and local funding and it would be run by its initial funders, independently of central government.

This is the clincher they have admitted with this statement that this is an investment and if children are central to the foundation it means they plan on selling them .

It is proposed that the Foundation would undertake work with four broad goals:

* to encourage the spread of early intervention

*to provide independent and trusted monitoring of the effectiveness of programmes

* to improve, develop and disseminate the evidence base of what works

*to act as an honest broker between financial investors, local authorities and deliverers to make the most of alternative funding mechanisms to provide the necessary investment that early intervention deserves.

Sweet Jesus did I just read that correctly free from central control set up a foundation funded by private, philanthropic sorts, no interferance from government .

Are we going to stand by and allow this to happen ??

might I remind you Frances Fitzgerald and Emily logan have both said they agree with Shannons report 100%
And the YES for children group have admitted too that they plan to legislate these recommendations

Geoffrey Shannon, the author of this report, is the current Chair of the Adoption Authority of Ireland. Mr. Shannon, whom I have met, point blank refuses to support adopted people’s right to access their files asserting that the birth parents rights to privacy is paramount under the Constitution. The Children’s Minister, Ms. Fitzgerald, whom I have also met, admits that the Children’s Referendum will not resolve this perceived issue. The rationale; by the time adopted children express an interest in seeking access to their files they are adults so they will not be covered by this proposed change. What is the mantra again of the Children’s Referendum – “Yes for children” they forgot the bit unless they are “adopted” children. I concur with Judge Ann Ryan, whom I uncanningly have also met, who currently sits in the Dublin Children’s Court, said “It is a joke listening to the children’s referendum — nothing changes, and nothing will change with the referendum, the bottom line is the same as the first day I sat in this court.”

Unfortunately, the only way to prevent abuse would be to monitor all families within their homes. Is that something you’d be comfortable with? As a result, all anyone can do is act when there are signs of abuse. I think you’re the first person I’ve heard of who opposes the referendum because it doesn’t interfere ENOUGH in people’s home lives!

he is trying to twist your words Anne ignore him he is a government gimp that wants this referendum passed and he doesn’t give a shit what happens to children after !

Would the yes vote not give the children a voice over parents/the state. I’m just wondering as i thought it meant that the family rights weren’t in first place anymore, but the rights and views of the child at risk?

well off family wants a little child to call their own arent interested in rights just wants.. look at all the child help agencies that decended on hairy

decended on Haiti.
bus loads of kids where been rushed out of their until the problem was highlighted
( my previous comment was sent without being completed.)

Yes, the state failed these people but because these abuses have been brought into the open and the victims now have a strong voice, it would be very difficult for it to happen again. Deny children their voice by voting no and it just might! Vote yes to protect them.

it will happen again shannon has said he will bring in the british CP system, 10,000 kids a yr are being snatched in the UK and sold and abused and neglected in care , If they pass this child trafficking referendum you will have thousands of kids thrown into a life of misery and rape and possible murder

Is that it? Wayne outlined different reasons for YES and you just use “Big Business” as the reason for a NO.
The devise you used to send that message comes from big business, the world we live in is about Big Business, like it or not it’s there. Bit that’s a lame reason for a NO vote.

Any proof to back up your statement?

‘The care industry is big business’?
Care to elaborate that point?

I work with vulnerable, abused children and most often the worst part is the children being terrified that they could be (and frequently are) returned to their families at any moment. When you allude to abuse in care I would like to know what age group you are talking to-most children are now placed in loving caring foster families.

And equally the children I deal with who’ve been abused and neglected when given their own voice, choose to stay where they are loved, cared for and most importantly, are safe.

This referendum is about what’s best for children, not the outdated notion that children are always, no matter what, better off with their biological families. We know as reasonable and intelligent people that this clearly isn’t always true.

@ torpedo

is your Google button broken ?

The Catholic church in Ireland made vast sums of money through workhouses like the Magdalene laundries not only by putting the children to work for zero pay, they also sold children onto couples who were looking to adopt them for a tidy sum. Thankfully today places like the Magdalene laundries are no more but the legacy of child exploitation and the sale of children to desperate couples lives on and is a multi million euro business, just as Brain stated.
I’m not saying this amendment to the constitution is designed to assist these child adoption agencies in exploiting vulnerable children, but it leaves the door open for such behaviour and with our poor track record on child welfare in this country I don’t see how giving the state more power in this area can ever be a good thing.

Early intervention is the key as Wayne pointed out because the state has no power to intervene any earlier bcos the parents rights are currently superior in the eyes of the law to that of the child’s rights. Extremely traumatic on the children been taken into care when so much damage has already been done in their lives, when it’s at crisis point..we need to change this..we need a yes vote

The basic premise is wrong. It is the COURTS who decide the matter under the proposal. The STATE may only petition the Courts to intervene. This is not the panacea it appears to be.

@ Jacky For most of the history of independent Ireland the ‘care industry’ was big business – for the Catholic Church. Indeed it was described as an ‘INDUSTRY’ !

Each town seemed to have it’s own Industrial School and, in many respects, local economies depended on the labour the incarcerated children provide; as did many of the Industrial Schools who had dairy and agricultural industries also worked by the children along with internal workshops including tailoring, bootmaking, knitting shops and bakeries. The Ryan Report details the horrendous physical and sexual torture these slave children endured. To date no prosecutions have followed from that report; nor has the Criminal Assets Bureau seized the assets of the criminals overseeing these major human rights abuses. At the moment we have an elected Minister pleading with the Religious Orders – who oversaw and covered up the abuses – to pay a fair share of the abuse bill. A referendum along those lines would garner much support.

Another couple of aspects of this ‘care industry’ included the Magdalene Asylums and Mother & Baby homes. A big money-earner was baby-trafficking where babies were illegally sold to rich families in America. To date no prosecutions have been started against the people responsible for this baby-trafficking – the taking of children from their kith and kin; nor have any of the children – illegally sold – been allowed access to information regarding their natural mothers. The government has completely ignored these people and goes out of its way to do so!

This referendum – if passed – will allow some people to adopt some children. It’s mostly about who owns children! It does not advance the rights of children – there is no charter outlining the rights of children. A referendum wording denying parental rights to parent(s) who abuse their children would get my support.

The referendum does not extend the definition of the family to include grandparents, aunties, uncles or siblings. The referendum will allow some children to be taken from their kith and kin. So no change there! A referendum extending the definition of the family would get my support, also it would mean that children would not be taken from their kith and kin.

64% of all children in care come from single families and if adoption was the reason for this constitutional change why haven’t those 64% of children gone through the adoption process?
they don’t care about finding the 64% homes but they want us to believe that this referendum is to allow for the 36% to be placed for adoption , I mean seriously where is the bloody logic?
This whole referendum is a massive deception and people really really need to wake up and vote NO.
You will never forgive yourself for what is to come if you vote yes I promise you that

Eric i commend you on your decision to support a system that is tearing families apart in Ireland , as for saving the state a fortune you couldn’t be more wrong , the Judiciary , Psychologists, Childrens Charities , Gaurdian ad Litem agencies , to name but a few receive huge amounts of money from the practices of the family courts , children are been wrongfuly removed from their parents on the most spurious of reasons all to finance an industry that stands @ 1billion euro per year