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Dublin: 12 °C Monday 20 May, 2013

Column: Why I’ll be voting No in the Children’s Referendum

There is no legal need for constitutional change – and it may have unforeseen consequences, writes Gerry Fahey.

Gerry Fahey

RETIRED JUDGE HUGH O’Flaherty recently stated that all – or nearly all – of the objectives of the Amendment are to be found in our existing Constitution, in ordinary legislation or in court judgments, and the one that isn’t can be dealt with by amending legislation.

This is consistent with the view of Supreme Court Judge Adrian Hardiman who stated in 2006 that:

The Constitution does not prefer parents to children. The preference the Constitution gives is this: it prefers parents to third parties, official or private, priest or social worker, as the enablers and guardians of the child’s rights.

The amendment consists of three parts – the welfare of the child, hearing the voice of the child, and adoption issues.

Welfare issues are adequately dealt with in the Constitution, as Judge Hardiman made clear, where provision is made for State intervention under Article 42.5 when parents fail in their duty towards their children. The Roscommon ‘incest case’ is frequently cited by advocates of a Yes vote as a reason for supporting the amendment. However, if the State had acted as it should have under this Article, then the Roscommon case would have been properly dealt with, and the children would have been removed from their abusive home.

No constitutional provision regarding children’s welfare is of value if society ignores it. The abuse highlighted by the Ryan Report was not a consequence of a Constitutional deficiency – it was a consequence of societal values. The industrial schools’ abuses had stopped by the late 1970s because the victims started to speak out and a small number of journalists exposed the abuses. This happened without a constitutional amendment.

The ‘voice of the child’ does not need a constitutional amendment. Germany has almost the identical wording in its 1949 Constitution with respect to citizen rights, the family, children upbringing, and State intervention. In its family courts every child from the age of four has the right to her/his voice being heard. All we have to do is have the courts here to do the same.

Adoption

The Yes side argue that one of the effects of the amendment will be to permit the adoption of a large number of children, of married parents, now in long-term foster care – and that there are 1600 of these cases. Sadly, this is not true. Only 16 of 4400 children with unmarried parents were adopted in 2010. Adoptive parents generally want very young children with whom they can establish attachment bonds with at a young age.

So there is no need for the referendum because children’s rights are adequately catered for in the Constitution as it is; there is no legal impediment to the voice of the child being heard; and the adoption of a very small number of children can be dealt with by simply amending the 2010 Adoption Act.

Voters should bear in mind the inherent dangers in constitutional amendments arising from ‘unintended consequences’. The best example of this is to be seen in the 8th amendment, from 1983, which reads:

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

One of unintended consequences of this amendment was that it actually did allow for abortion in Ireland, although the advocates of a Yes vote thought that the amendment would ban abortion. The unintended consequence of the X Case showed that it didn’t.

One of the unintended consequences of the proposed amendment is that it may pit children against parents on some issues, and that the courts may be called upon to arbitrate these disputes. The X Case was an event not foreseen by the Yes side at the time the 8th Amendment was passed. It is very possible that there are unforeseen events with respect to this proposed amendment.

In addition, Article 42.5 is to be replaced by Article 42A.2.1. The reasons for State intervention in exceptional cases will change from ‘for physical and moral reasons’ to ‘to such extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected’. This will change the role of the courts from one in which each case is evaluated to some degree with retrospective certainty to one in which ‘likely’ future outcomes become the yardstick. The consequence of this will be that children may be taken from parents simply on the say so of social workers in the District Courts, which are courts of ‘summary’ justice.

Finally our family courts are de facto secret courts. There are hundreds of cases going though these courts each year. How do we know whether the constitution and legislation is being adhered to in these secret courts? The simple answer is we don’t. There is no public accountability.

For these reasons, and others, I will be voting NO.

Gerry Fahey is an Occupational Psychologist and a graduate of TCD and the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign.

Column: For foster children like me, the Children’s Referendum is a new chance>

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Comments (182 Comments)

  • peter 26/10/12 #

    The lack of genuine public debate on this referendum is a concern for me,

    Reply
    • indeed, i’ve had 5 or 6 yes leaflets through the door, and zero no leaflets. Was handed a no leaflet in town the other day. From the outset i have always thought there was something not right about the proposed bill.

      Reply
    • There’s no-one to debate it cos no-one disagrees with it. Seriously lads, it’s not that hard to grasp…

      Reply
    • The media aren’t covering this one because there’s no tension between two sides and all the major political parties are actively supporting it, even Sinn Féin.

      Having said that, there’s no excuse for people not to read the information themselves and make up their own mind.

      Reply
    • But you don’t know all the facts, Adam, because the cosy consensus will not tell you. Check out http://equalityforfathersinireland.webs.com/apps/blog/

      Reply
    • @Cathal, You can assume what you like, i actually have plenty of facts, thankyou. And i certainly don’t need to be educated on the way the system is so biased against unmarried fathers. As an unmarried father who has been struggling for his rights in court for 8 years, I am well aware of the difficulties we face.

      I assume, as you seem so knowledgable, that you, like me, have extensive experience with Guardian ad Litem? But then i find it hard to understand how you can believe any of the rubbish on that link? I am SHOCKED that a website that claims to be pro fathers rights, can be so uneducated, and so slating, on the ONE voice in court that stands up for their child, when virtually EVERY other person in court is biased in favour of the mother!?

      I’ll be educating that website later when i have time at work, so if you’d like to learn the truth, feel free to keep an eye on it through the day. In the meantime, i kindly ask you to refrain from commenting until you have a fecking clue what you’re talking about. Thanks.

      Reply
    • @Cathal, one other point, before you stop commenting and start to expand your education – i’m not entirely sure what relevance your link holds anyway (apart from displaying the ignorance of a group i had previously supported). The services of a GAL (provided by barandos or otherwise) is of very little relevance to this referendum. Yes, they will probably be used more to speak for the child, so that voice doesnt get lost in all the legal wrangling (how terrible!), but the referendum has a lot more angles than that one, and i think you may be missing the point altogether.

      Im sure that during today, as you read up on what is ACTUALLY going on, you’ll discover what the referendum is really about, and then perhaps we can have an intelligent discussion on the subject.

      kthxbye

      Reply
    • John 26/10/12 #

      Thick Irish, once again sheep voting for what they don’t understand. Believing the same basta**s that have lied to them in every other referendum…thick and so very ignorant! Is there another people like us in the world????? Seriously????

      Reply
    • Keith care to give us any reasons why your voting no

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    • Children Right Alliance Exposed!!. by Kathy Sinnot

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHk0VTuxzbA

      Reply
    • Then if you are not 100% sure you must vote No. Leave things as they are until you know the implications of what you are agreeing to. This is being rushed in so as not to give time for debate and you are being lied to.

      simply put, you are agreeing to give up your right to determine best interests for your own children. The State will have the power to anything it wants and retrospectively call it “Best Interests”.

      The State can decide to introduce mandatory or compulsory vaccination without the permission or even knowledge of parents and without the permission of the child if they are deemed too young.

      The State can take your children and have them adopted against your will, you do not need to be accused of a crime and it will be the subjective opinion of ONE person.

      The State can make Medical, Educational and other life-changing decisions and call it best interests.

      More information on APS.ie or on FaceBook http://www.facebook.com/AllianceOfParentsAgainstTheState

      Reply
  • Now I’m confused on something that seemed pretty straight forward….

    Reply
    • there is always a hidden agenda with voting. did you really believe what the government sent out to you. you should always look into what you vote for not what your told.

      Reply
    • John 26/10/12 #

      Yeah, just like the Matsereicht, Nice and Lisbon referendums…they all seemed pretty straight forward also right? Whatever the Irish government tell you to vote, you must fo the opposite to protect you, your children and life….simple rule really. Or do you think they suddenly care and tell the truth? But hey, since when did Irish people ever bother to understand what they are voting for?

      Reply
    • Martin 26/10/12 #

      Its a sorry state when we can’t trust our own government to give us all the information we need on referendum issues. One wonders how they will try to misinform us about joining a Federal Europe. If we even get a referendum on it.

      Reply
    • This is all about control. Think about it. You find information about a corrupt politician, they have your kids taken. You even threaten to run against a politician and they have your kids taken. Its 100% a backup plan against revolutionary people. F#ck them. Anybody touches my kids, they disappear into a bog.

      Reply
    • @Ed – not sure if trolling, or just REALLY stupid…?

      Reply
    • Sham 26/10/12 #

      Ed that is comment of the century! “Run against a politician and they’ll have your kids taken” I think I burst my spleen laughing at ya kid.

      Reply
    • @ adam gill, you think ed is stupid? look back into the past and see some of the ‘reasons’ why children were removed from their families and into ‘state care’. you might realise he is not as stupid as you think. its been done before and it will be done again. giving the state and it’s officials too much power and freedom is a very dangerous thing to do. this referendum is NOT about the rights of children ,it is about giving over more power to the state ,the courts, social services and other government bodies. as with other referendums of recent times the public is not being told the truth, i’ll be voting no!

      Reply
    • Peter 01/11/12 #

      Franco allow’d this programme too ! Vote no!

      Reply
  • if I vote yes can I give back some of my kids???

    Reply
  • This is the first decent article advocating a No vote…..and it does prompt serious consideration. But, like others…..not sure how to vote. Hard to place all my faith in the state to do the right thing.

    Reply
  • Is anyone else concerned that Dana has not made an appearance? The Constitution was like her Blankie during the Presidential campaign and we all know how much she likes her family values.

    Reply
  • very suprised that more comments don’t mention the Many cases in the uk where children are taken from loving families for the most flimsiest of reasons and the way the system is totaly loaded against parents fighting to get their kids back.google it folks!

    Reply
    • I agree with this.the proposed referendum will make it too easy for the social workers to take children for little reason thats why i will be voting no and encourage others to do so also.

      Reply
    • Raymond, we are the UK system, just 5 or 10 years behind. Rather than following better models like France, Spain and Italy we are making the same mistakes.

      There is vetting legislation now before the Dail, in a year or so it will be illegal to hire the college girl across the road to babysit your kids if you want a night out unless she is vetted and has taken a course, no doubt from a children’s charity and paid a huge fee. In the UK the fine is £3,000 and the first people charged were 2 female Police Officers who worked opposite shifts.

      This is not about children, it’s about making the State the parent so that they can do whatever they want and you will have no legal right to do anything about it.

      Reply
  • was always voting no, its basically giving the state more powers then that of the parent. i’m a father of three and there is no way i would vote to give the state powers to take my children. let the goverment get their own house in order before they start ruining others.

    Reply
    • And I’m sure you give your children a good, stable home. Unfortunately, many dont. The government aren’t interested in YOUR kids. They’re interested in protecting children who are at risk.

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    • very good point adam, but why does the constitution need to be changed so drastically? Is there really a need for such a reform when the rights of the child are already a part of the constitution?

      Reply
    • @adam they could look after the children in the Roscommon case and they didn’t look after the 760 who died/went missing children in 10 years what makes you think that a change in the constitution is going to make any difference

      Reply
    • @adam they could look after the children in the Roscommon case and they didn’t look after the 760 who died/went missing in 10 years what makes you think that a change in the constitution is going to make any difference

      Reply
    • Could not look after them

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    • @Keith – it’s NOT a drastic change, it’s a relatively minor change, but it enshrines in the constitution some thing that at present are only found in court judgements and legislation. The rights of a child ARE already protected in the constitution, but this amendment gives them a little more protection. I don’t see the harm in that.

      @Stephen, can you please explain the relevance to me? Are you suggesting that because a few HSE workers made bad decisions in a difficult job – perhaps are few were even hopelessly incompetent – that we should no longer bother protecting children at risk? I’m not quite sure why you think children that are being abused should suffer because of the mistakes in the cases you highlighted – woudn’t it make more sense for you to campaign that those responsible were brought to justice?

      Reply
    • @ Adam
      We definitely should be protecting children at risk and their rights but what about the 260 that died in 10 years in state care what about their rights or are their rights automatically forgotten about once they’re taken into care or do you think that these people are no longer at risk. I think there needs to be some sort of accountability in state care before they start taking away other vulnerable children and putting them at risk as well and as for “A few bad mistakes” you were on about the HSE were involved with the Roscommon family since 1989 and did nothin till 2004 after 1 of the children requested to be taken into care they had a job to do and failed miserably and you think these are the people to look after anyone’s children. There are loads of people on here saying if even 1 child is saved by a yes vote well I’m saying if another 260 children are saved by a no vote they can count on mine

      Reply
    • @stephen – have you checked out the stats on the number of children who have been given better lives as a result of HSE intervention in the same period? didnt think so.

      Reply
    • Adam, have you checked the stats on children who have died or have gone missing while in the HSE’s care? No. I didn’t think so.

      Reply
    • @ Adam
      There’s approx 5000-6000 children in care each year with around 25pc of them being in long term care. In the 10 year period approx 12.5 -15.2 percent of those in care either died or went missing. I have relatives who foster children and i have my own child and I have no doubt what so ever that children deserve to be look after and provided with a safe home and lots of love and the very best that we can give them but when 12 – 15 children out of every 100 end up dead or missing because of an incompetent system then I really think the system needs to be changed before they decide to take on anybody else and forget about them

      http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0620/breaking4.html

      Don’t just assume that because you don’t know the figures that nobody will

      Reply
    • Adam the political figures in this country cannot be trusted they lie through their teeth every day to the people ,our political banking judicial system is on the floor and you want to give them more powers,also i am a father .

      Reply
    • @brian, yes, we’ve already discussed the stats of children who have died or gone missing. I was talking about the number of children who have been helped. If you try re-reading, perhaps it’ll be clearer to you on your second look.

      @steven: I’m not disputing the figures. In saying that many children are helped by the HSE, and many more need help that they simply won’t get under the current system. So many people on here are so quick to talk about ‘sheep’ believing what the government tell them. I’d be the first to doubt what they tell me. But I’ve done my own research, and had my own experiences, and I can tell you there are children out there who need help, that aren’t getting it, that WOULD get it under the new system. I can also tell you categorically that there are some AMAZING social workers out there, who do a fantastic job, and care a huge amount about the children in their are. Perhaps the ‘sheep’ are the ones who actually believe the bullsh!t story that all social workers are bad people, who think that the HSE is some kind of corporate conspiracy designed to take our children away and let them die in inappropriate care?

      ‘Think for yourself’ swings both ways. Believing that politicians are automatically wrong/lying/trying to rip us off is as stupid as believing that they’re always right/honest/trying to help us.

      Have a mind of your own for christ sake. And that’s not a personal comment against u, but rather directed against 90% of the people on here

      Reply
    • I would just like to say I was in care for most of my childhood and that bloody government never gave a shit bout any of us why would they start now it’s all a money racket with them They don’t give a damn bout the children of Ireland otherwise they wouldn’t be making families suffer and struggling to try and make ends meet and then just taking money from them in every way they can I don’t see any of them giving up pensions and their wages to sort out this problem we have in this country grrrrr I could go on and on but wots the use the stupid gullible people of this country will vote yes and then all u will hear is them complaining bout this and that yet it’s them dopes that put them in government in the first place !!!

      Reply
  • This is a good and timely article. I have read the amendments briefly and like the author I concluded that one of the amendments proposed looks to me that it could have unintended consequences. I have not on the strength that alone made up my mind as there us much more to consider. It is incumbent on all of us to infirm ourselves about the issues in this referendum as I would venture that this is a far more important one than the other one this year.

    Reply
    • Can you elaborate on that amendment a little?

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    • Paul, these are the two sections of the amendment contained in the amendment to 42A that I feel may be open to interpetation.

      1° In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

      2° Provision shall be made by law for securing, as far as practicable, that in all proceedings referred to in subsection 1° of this section in respect of any child who is capable of forming his or her own views, the views of the child shall be ascertained and given due weight having regard to the age and maturity of the child.

      To me they are both framed in a slightly vague manner.

      Reply
    • @sean norris, “amendment to 42A IN EXCEPTIONAL CASES WHERE THE PARENTS,REGARDLESS OF MARITAL STATUS FAIL IN THEIR DUTIES TOWARDS THE CHILDREN” do you think that these amendments(if passed) will be applied to the state and its representatives when THEY inevitably fail these children like they have in the past ?.

      Reply
  • Wow, this column seems to have really pee’d off the yes side…. and those with open minds seem to have gotten something genuine from it.

    I had been somewhat on the No vote side previously, mostly because I am against state intervention in the family. Some points from the Yes side then had me leaning that way.

    Right now, I am certainly on the No side. All too often people make this about their situation or individual situations. The things people point to simply don’t appear to have validity to me. Roscommon and other situations like it? I don’t see how the proposed change would make any difference at all.
    I also don’t see how it is that any particular group within the state needs specific protections. The constitution is for citizens of the state, which covers it’s children also.

    There seems to be a “sure it can’t do any harm” attitude. I can only say that this naivety is nothing short of dangerous when tinkering with a constitution.

    I certainly won’t vote Yes for the reasons that many will put forward. And I won’t vote yes because the campaign for yes is designed to make you feel like some kind of child hater if you even question it.

    I’ll vote No because I have looked at both sides in a way that I feel is as complete as possible and found that I can see no benefit to the current wording.

    The other thing I find amazing about this is that the Yes camp appear to think this is the only possible chance. Doesn’t this country have a habit of continuing to ask the same question until it gets the answer it wants? In my own view they need to look at the wording before I would vote Yes.

    Reply
    • Couldn’t have put it better myself Tomy. Its good to see some people taking all sides of the argument on board before blindly voting. Unfortunately, there is a huge percentage of the population that will just trust what the government says without looking into it themselves. Pity.

      Reply
    • All I can say Tomy is if everyone adopted your attitude and proactively researched the amendments carefully and ignored the ‘shouters’ we’d all be far better off. If I’m perfectly honest I was going to vote Yes purely because I didn’t really feel that passionate about this particular referendum (I don’t have kids for one) but the more I’ve looked into it I am swinging towards a No vote based on the potential damage that an amendment to the constitution could cause, if one child is incorrectly removed from their family I personally think it’ll be one child too many, and god knows our state agencies are quite proficient of making bad decisions, just my opinion. I think child protection has never been stronger in this country, and sadly that was as a result of horrendous abuses in the past rather than forward thinking.

      Reply
    • @tomy – if you can see no benefit to the (i assume u meant ‘new’, rather than ‘current’?) wording, then you don’t understand the wording. The amendment restricts the state in its actions to ‘proportionate means as provided by law’ rather than the ‘appropriate’ means in the current wording, which is left up to the discretion of individual judges.

      Further, the amendment constitutionally secures the right for the voice of the child to be heard in court, AND allows a more practical process for foster parents to adopt long-term foster children.

      Which of these in particular to you not see the benefit of?

      If i’ve somehow got it wrong, and you DID mean that you see no benefit to the CURRENT wording – then i assume you are voting yes, to change the current wording to the new wording,…

      Reply
    • wow tomy, big assumption to make that the no side are open minded and have come to a decision by reviewing all sides of the argument. did you ever think ghat just maybe those who have decided to vote yes have also reviewed the arguments but do not agree with you. healthy democracy surely?

      Reply
    • @Hazel, you’ve made the assumption there I’m afraid. I haven’t said that the No side are open minded. I’ve said that the open minded people seem to have gotten something more than just voting Yes “just in case”.

      @Adam, can you tell me how our current constitution denies anyone their voice? As for the wording, I regard the words “proportional” and “appropriate” as being very subjective.

      In my opinion what is happening here is that we have a government who wants to score points and are doing so using this referendum. I’m pretty certain this referendum will pass and when it does FG will be able to say “this referendum was brought to you by the awesomeness that is FG” when election time next rolls around.

      I think people are throwing in quite a few red herrings about this. The bottom line is that the constitution is written to support legislation. In my view, the legislation that will be passed in the future when this amendment goes through will be no different to the legislation that could be passed today. I think we’ll find that this will be the case. Is that a reason to vote no? Not in itself perhaps but I would also not be so arrogant to assume that I can see the unintended effects of any amendment.

      In the mean time, while there are many many issues that could be addressed rather than spending money on a referendum, there are political points to be won. The other effect of a referendum is that it allows the government to hand the reigns over to the people. While that’s generally a good thing what I think is really happening in this case is that they are simply afraid to put in legislation now (which they could do) and have themselves blamed if it turned out badly in the end. So it’s over to us and the government simply cannot lose.

      Now I know what some will think by reading this – they’ll think that my reason for voting no is an anti-government attitude. Before you think that, please read again…

      Reply
  • All very valid arguments. My greatest concern is how this wording may be interpreted in the future. It’s all well and good being told now that this referendum has nothing to do with preventing parents from slapping their child, but what if at some future time a judge rules that it does? I am against parents hitting their children with force but I believe the threat of a slap is a necessary deterrent for some children. If this referendum is passed I fear parents will lose an important means is control over their child. Maybe the “naughty step” will be next in the firing-line.

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    • To the red-thumbs, tell me if I’m wrong. I’m undecided on the referendum and you obviously have an opinion, so tell me what part of my comment do you disagree with? Is it that you don’t believe that the referendum wording could be interpreted to ban slapping or chastisement (i.e. the “naughty step”)? Why? Or is it because you’re against parents slapping their children entirely? Again, why?

      Reply
    • slapping is violence towards another person no matter what age they are. scare mongering about the naughty step doesn’t progress the debate in any way.
      ‘A person is a person no matter how small’ Dr Zues

      Reply
    • Learn how to discipline without physical violence. End of.

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    • I see. You’re certainly winning me over to one side, and I don’t think it’s the side you’ll be voting.
      Hitting children is wrong. I’ve intervened to stop a parent who had lifted his child off the ground with one arm. While beating him with the other. Brutal. But I have been slapped as a child, rarely, when dána, and it certainly helped teach me to behave. And who is to say that some court won’t rule that the naughty step is an abuse?

      Reply
    • Hazel, I see. You’re certainly winning me over to one side, and I don’t think it’s the side you’ll be voting.
      Hitting children is wrong. I’ve intervened to stop a parent who had lifted his child off the ground with one arm. While beating him with the other. Brutal. But I have been slapped as a child, rarely, when dána, and it certainly helped teach me to behave. And who is to say that some court won’t rule that the naughty step is an abuse?

      Reply
    • Will you stop going on about the naughty step? this isnt some ‘slippery slope’. If you can discipline your children in a way that doesnt harm them, you have nothing to worry about.

      the whole “i was slapped, it never did me any harm” argument is completely invalid. I certainly know people, and i imagine you do too, who had the belt taken to them as a child. And i’m sure it taught them to behave. Would you beat your child with a belt?

      Things change. Things that were seen as acceptable, at least socially (smoking while pregnant, drink driving etc) a couple of decades ago, are no longer acceptable, and quite rightly so.

      Reply
    • jesus 26/10/12 #

      Spare the rod and spoil the child.

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    • Children are people but undeveloped and developing people.

      They have limited sense of time, rationality, and cause and effect. They can be unaware of the dangerous consequences of actions to themselves and others. They cannot be reasoned with, and are not capable biologically of advanced logic. They have limited impulse control, and control over there emotions and action.

      All these developing abilities mature at different speed for different children, but the limitation exist for all as they grow.

      As parents it is your job to educate and protect your child, also to communicate with them on a level they can perceive and understand.

      In a lot of cases a short sharp slap (not a violent assault), is very effective, and will be assosiated by the developing brain as unpleasent and avoided. This can be used to stop a child walking in front of traffic, of burning themselves with fire etc…..

      Dogmatic PC comments like “slapping is violence towards another person no matter what age they are” are ridiculous, and show a very simplistic mindset…..Populist and ignoring a lot of realities, and evidence.

      Violence against children is wrong…..end of
      Slapping a child for discipline by good parents is not violence…..end of

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    • Slapping your children now will get you 6 months. If the referendum passes, the “Thought Police” will take your children on the basis of future crime, I’m not kidding. It says “Is likely to” in the new wording.

      They currently use “Risk of Future Emotional Harm” as it stands now. that is like a Garda asking a Judge for an arrest and detention warrant on the basis such as “this man will likely become a criminal at some point in the future”. Sounds laughable but this is what is happening in secret family courts every day.

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  • The government is full of bullshitters I have read the referendum twice but I still can’t see where it benefits the parents I for 1 will be voting no I agree with this person vote no if u love ur kids

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  • Excellent article,bringing to the fore,some very important issues. i think many planing to vote yes,for the “welfare” of the child haven’t really thought about.

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  • Imagine someone who works for the state and wants to take your child, the child you have spent its every breathing minute with you, give them more power? Why give this state anymore power? I’ll be voting no

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  • The Referendum Commissions Independent Guide states that
    “The proposed Article 42A.4.2° provides that laws must be passed which require that in Issues of adoption, guardianship, custody of, or access to, a child in proceedings between any persons, as far as practicable, the views of a child capable of forming his or her own views be obtained and given due weight having regard to the age and maturity of the child”.
    Guardianship is the most widely misunderstood concept in Family Law, where the rights of parents to act jointly as Guardians is generally ignored and the consent of one parent, generally the mother, is accepted by schools, hospitals and the HSE
    (See Equal Status complaints http://equalityforfathersinireland.webs.com/equalitytribunal.htm).

    As the State authorities generally do not understand the concept of Guardianship, who will explain it to the children who are to have their voices heard?

    Reply
  • Damn duplicate postings!

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  • Can’t believe that someone thinks that the state should only look at what has happened to a child and not to likely future outcomes ! Is it not too late after its happened !!!

    Reply
    • I think people are losing sight of the individual children who are at risk, and instead concentrating on point scoring against a government who are, lets be honest, absolutely fecking useless. But i dont know why they see this as a reason to punish children who are at risk of abuse

      Reply
    • Adam what further protection do your children need?

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    • @Ian, i think you may be a little confused – I’m actually not the father of every single one of the hundreds of thousands of children in Ireland. I’m quite proud of my potency, but i think that may be stretching it a little.

      The protection children need is the protection against what is LIKELY to happen to them, not only what HAS happened to them.

      but thanks for asking, i hope i helped increase your understanding of this important matter :)

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    • Adam I am not at all confused, I asked you what further protection do YOUR children need? And please stop assuming that you know better than everyone else.

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    • @Ian, MY children don’t need any further protections. But like most people in this country, I am not wholly selfish, and not ONLY concerned with what MY children need, but also with the welfare of those who are at risk – both children and adults.

      Also, i don’t assume i know better than everyone else – although judging by the comments on here, it’s clear that i know better than quite a few – but you asked me a question, so i explained it for you, don’t then give out to me for answering it.

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    • @Adam gill: Adam you say your children need no further protection as is the case in most parents lives and where their is cases of abuse, whether it be mental, physical, or sexual the relevant authorities have sufficient powers to intervene in those cases, so you see we don’t need a referendum unless of course their is a hidden agenda.

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  • Save the Children, Vote NO. |

    Vote NO for Democracy and Freedom and to save the children from the State.
    The Irish Government , with the support of all the Irish political parties including all the opposition , are running a national referendum in Ireland on Saturday next November 10th to give the State more control over the children of Ireland in opposition to existing parental rights, even though the Irish Constitution already protects children , where the State has always dismally failed to do so.
    Those of us concerned citizens opposing this are being overwhelmed by mass organisation, mass media and postering across Ireland right now by ALL the Irish political parties with all the politicians ganging up on the people, we feel that this is the final solution by the State and the politicians to all dissenting voices in Ireland.
    Thus we the people , with no organisation, no political party left, are fighting to the finish for Democracy and Freedom of Choice to be maintained in a Free Ireland, and that our children be saved from State despotism and Dictatorship.
    Save the Children, Vote NO.

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  • Makes no difference how we vote in this referendum , it will be rigged to suit the government . But in saying that I’m still voting no.

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  • To the no-ers. A number of years ago a toddler was forcibly returned to its birth parents despite having been raised by foster parents. The Supreme Court ruled and basically said the future psychological damage and imminent distress to the child were less important than the rights of the parents as enshrined in the constitution. Existing statute does not adequately address this issue.
    I also know a family that have adopted foster children. It is a horrendous process because of the current statue. That is why it seldom happens.
    A judge can express an opinion on constitutional or legislative matters but it does not mean it is correct. check out Supreme Court decisions. There are plenty of occasions where the judges disAgree. We have appeal courts that regularly second guess judgements.
    Far too much credence is given to this article and its author.

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    • Tony,

      Your comment about the forcible return of a child to his/her parents is interesting.

      You seem to assume that the toddler is better with the Foster parents, how can you be so sure? Are you in favour of forcibly keeping children from their parents? What were the particular details of the case, without those you point has no merit.

      The court cannot predict “future psychological damage”, you again make assumptions about the future treatment by the real parents. Perhaps you are right perhaps the parents should be written off, but you cannot know this for sure, they may very well turn around and be the best parents for the child.

      You come across as too judgemental and justice has to always remain blind, or you slip down a slippery slope, are you going to become the judge of all parents and whether or not they should have kids?

      Will balanced legislation sometimes result in bad results = yes, but will protect good / reformed parents
      Will unbalanced legislation result in injustice to some good / reformed parents = definitely.

      It is a very tricky area, not quite as straight forwards and your post and assumptions indicate.

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    • @hello google
      The parents of the child in question had very seriously abused and abandoned the child. As such she ended up with foster parents. Good parenting? I stated the facts of the judgement, I did not judge the parents. But now I will. If you abuse and abandon your child you should forfeit the right to parent said child.
      As for the trauma etc, that was a reference to the trauma of tearing the child from what it regarded as is parents and the subsequent damage such actions would likely be caused to the child.
      So I contend, the status quo should not remain. An instance of such callous cruelty to an innocent child by the courts under the auspices of the constitution should be unacceptable in a modern society.

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    • Tony Fleming
      There are laws already there that will protect children like the one you cited here. However it is the failure of the state body/ bodies who have failed the child NOT the constitution . I will be voting No for the following reasons : It is giving more POWER to the state over children who by and large are well looked by their parents . Children who are in peril, can be fostered until any problems are resolved . However , if you read the word- PRACTICABLE -That one word in the new wording then you can see that this administration or any future governments can do away with fostering as a temporary respite for children, who may be going through difficult times, to save MONEY.IN Mountjoy and every other prison there arechildren being brought in to see their Dads and Mams….This contact with their parents was paramount in their lives and at the end of the day it is children’s emotions and psychological balances that we must protect. To rip a child (not baby) a child, from his/ her parents is cruel. Social Workers bring children of inmates in to the prison to see parents , because it is important for both to maintain contact.We know that this contact is crucial for the child.
      Furthermore I do not TRUST this Government . This Referendum has NOT addressed the abuses that children can and HAVE suffered at the hands of Church and State. There is NOT a queue of children waiting to be adopted ,because parents / single men/women choose to keep and rear their little ones themselves. Yes there are those who should not have a cat let alone a child , but the state already caters for them . And often times do gety it right but unfortunately we know the state bodies have got it very wrong too.Why is that ? It is not for the lack of laws!
      I was not sure which way I should vote ,until the state ie this government and quangos started telling us we have to vote YES. They only showed us the new words but have not compared them with the old . They have not explained why we should vote yes,only told us we must vote yes, and that if we vote no we are BAD . However , compare the wording (42.5) you will see that the family is paramount , Mothers are too, and are entitled to financial help .Read it ,compare it , decide ! Who says who are ”proper” parents .
      I am not going to vote no just because the government have told me to vote yes . That would be ignorant and damaging . I will vote No because it is the right / correct thing to do , for children and families.
      By the way , if this referendum is passed it will not stop pedophilia or the institutional abuse of children. This Referendum is to save government money :re to cut back on fostering , to cut back on Children’s allowance ,(it is being held before the budget)
      and to have forced adoptions, and take the care and control of children from their parents,even down to consenting to injections and vaccinations !To give children to ”PROPER” parents.
      You are right ,this is WAY BEYOND political , it is cultural,so why is it this government have made it political.
      I wonder where the Church stand on this issue ? Seriously ! They will not DARE say .

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    • Tony,

      Hard cases make bad law.

      I don’t know the details of your particular example, but I suspect your interpretation of the supreme court judgement is biased. I hope you are wrong and the child with not be the ultimate loser in that case. I am certain you are an advocate for the best interests of the child as you see it, but that judgement is not yours to make.

      As regards the states ability to remove children from parents who abandon / abuse children this power already exists. The courts can order social workers to supervise, and ultimately remove the children from the parents, this already exists and happens all the time.
      The return of children to the same parents can happen, but only if the circumstances have significantly changed or the parents can convince the court that they have changed.

      This is the status quo as I understand it, a compromise which hopes to protect all involved.

      Again hard cases make bad law.

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    • Hello hello,
      Thanks for your reply. What I wrote is not an interpretation of the judgement. The Supreme court justice specifically stated that it could not consider the imminent trauma or (future) psychological damage to the child as a result of it’s removal from the foster parents. The rights of the parents, under the constitution, could be considered. There are many such cases.
      I am voting yes because I care about the rights of children.

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  • I think I’ll put my trust in children’s rights organisations such as Barnardos and ISPCC who have advocated on behalf of children for so long. Their only agenda is improving the lives of all children in Ireland- I’m sure they don’t always put their faith in the state to do the right thing yet they are calling for a yes vote. no hidden agendas

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  • over my dead body!!! no!!!!!!!

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  • I havent made a definite decision on this yet, but the part that I am stuck on is that the STATE/SOCIAL WORKER can actually take your parental rights off you at a drop of a hat. YES there are some people out there that this needs to be done but I know there is already legal ways of doing this. I have seen social workers first hand at work and some of them have NO interest in helping families stay together and giving the support they need to do this. There are parents out there whose kids are in foster care short term because of some unfortunate situation that got out of hand, What is stopping these kids being put up for adoption??????. I really believe this is being changed because the state is trying to relinquish some of its services and supports to the “family” section of the constitution.

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    • Shirley O Leary
      This is exactly how I feel too ,and it was not until I compared the wording of the proposed and current constitutions,that I saw this . This government are up to no good and I will be voting NO to protect my rights and those of my children.

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  • As an adoptive parent as well as parent of two “birth” children I’ve never had any doubt in my mind about voting Yes. Why? There are several reasons but in a nutshell it boils down to the need for our children to have a voice that is fully and wholly recognised in law. While it may be true that these constitutonal amendments can be met from existing legislation it is a long and ardous process which leaves the child in limbo for many years while the rights of their birth parents are put before their own. Adoptions in foster care are low at the moment simply because it is a hard and difficult process however the hope is that this amendment will at long last put the child and their needs at the centre of any legal decisions being made. If a childs birth parents are incapable or unwilling to provide a loving and supportive as well as most importantly a safe home to a child then the law should allow for their adoption to those who can, while the child is still capable of benefitting from this. The lack of security that being in foster care gives a child leaves them in a legal and emotional limbo, don’t our children deserve better. I understand peoples worries about too much state intervention and hidden agendas but when you approach this argument from the point of view of the child which is afterall our duty as adults then Yes is the only option in my opinion.

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    • Exactly Mairead – the whole ‘no’ argument is focusing on the myth that voting yes will give more rights to the state over parents, and missing the entire point of the amendment, which is to allow our children’s voices to be heard.

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    • This is a very well written response in favor of a yes vote, and the only one mildly convincing me to sway from the decision I thought I was clear on. Thanks

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    • How on earth can the voice of a small child resolve the type of problemes in our socity at present, please try and tink a little, yes they will be heard but what power will they have less then they have now. ALL LITTLE CHILDREN WANT THERE MOTHER AND FATHERS AT HOME WITH THEM What brings security to the Child is the LOVE between the Mother and the Father, Now stop all this tom foolary and begin to look at the real problems?

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  • As someone who is deeply committed to voting yes I would welcome a serious article from the No side to generate informed debate on the issues – but this isn’t that article. The author is selective in his examples – e.g. the Roscommon case, yes the health board/HSE messed up badly but the key issue here (which is strangely not referred to) was the case brought brought by the parents with the support of a conservative group in which the High Court gave precedence to the rights of (abusing) parents over the rights of their children for constitutional reasons.

    And as for the admonishment not to vote yes for the hypothetical fear of subsequent unintended consequences (yes, of course, let’s bring the abortion issue into this, that’s enough to scare everyone off!) – well, what about the actual unintended consequences of the Constitution as it currently stands?

    Let’s not pretend that passing this referendum will automatically make our children’s lives perfect. There’ll still be a need for the implementation of good policy, proper resources and effective practice in children’s services – and to support parents because the experience of stable loving parents will always be the best option for children. But the amendment will deal with the outrageous differential treatment of vulnerable children based on whether their parents are married or not. Frankly I don’t care about Judge O’Flaherty’s esoteric opinion – and I disagree with Gerry Fahey’s assertion that the referendum is unnecessary – because in advocating for children for over 30 years I’ve seen again and again how the Constitution as it currently stands acts against the best interests of children. Don’t be thrown off by scare tactics or justifiable antipathy to the Government on other fronts. I’m urging a strong yes vote on 10th November because I know that will make a real difference to children, especially those that are vulnerable.

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    • @EoinKeegan

      In connection with the Roscommon incest case You state “but the key issue here (which is strangely not referred to) was the case brought brought by the parents with the support of a conservative group in which the High Court gave precedence to the rights of (abusing) parents over the rights of their children for constitutional reasons.”

      You are obviously not in any way familiar with the details of the case. The hearing you refer to was an ex parte hearing which is a hearing of one side only. It is a temporary measure which should have been immediately followed up within days by the the Health Board with a full hearing of both sides. The Inquiry Report contains the following statements:

      1. “The Law Agent was unable to say precisely why seven months had passed before the matter was heard before the High Court, but stated ‘I have telephone calls, I have no letter.’ He had no notes of conversations with the relevant social work staff to expedite the matter”.

      2. “The Inquiry Team notes that there should have been a much more immediate approach to the High Court to vary or have vacated the ex parte Order”.

      3. “The Inquiry Team notes that the District Court has original jurisdiction regarding the Child Care Act 1981. On application by the WHB the High Court varied his original order so as to acknowledge that the WHB could apply to the District Court under the Child Care Act 1993″.

      Unlike some, such as you, I would never put a comment on such a serious matter as the well being of children without checking out the relevant facts.

      It is quite easy to check out the facts on the Roscommon case by going to Google and anyone who wants will easily find the link http://www.oneinfour.ie/content/resources/RoscommonChildCareCase.pdf .

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    • My comment in the previous post in reply to Eoin Keegan on Quote1 from the Inquiry Report it should have read ‘I have NO telephone calls, I have no letters’

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  • political correctness is gone to far , eventually we will find out that the gov. are doing this for their own gain as they have in every other referemdum ….I agree all kids deserve to be safe well cared for and educated ect…and the majority of parents do this very well once again we are being forced to vote to give the people who really dont give a dam a voice to shout dissadvantage and inequality not gonna waste the petrol to vote

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  • I grew up in an extremely abusive home, the long list of social workers assigned to us we’re powerless to do anything. while I can’t take our governments word on anything, if an amendment gives or even just reaffirms protection for children in similar circumstances then I’m voting in favour.

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  • not sure why this was removed first time around…

    I will absolutely be voting yes. Not because I ‘blindly believe what the government tell me’ or any of that bollix. There are a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have more experience than many with situations in which this amendment would have made a difference, and it annoys me a bit that people are saying ‘if you vote yes the government will take our kids away’. Seriously? Cop on. Do u think the government WANTS your kids!? There are situations, which many people seems to be oblivious to, in which this amendment, would, without any room for argument, ensure the protection of the welfare of a child. Even if it helps one child, it’s worth voting yes.

    2. ‘But it might have in intended consequences!’ Oh. No. Lets never vote for anything again just in case someone tries to twist it at some point in the future. Cracking idea there.

    3. ‘But now I can’t slap my kids!’ Here’s an idea…. Just off the top of my head… DONT SLAP YOUR KIDS!? Just throwing it out there like…

    4. ‘But all the provisions allowed for in the amendment are already in effect in various places’ well then there’s no reason not to enshrine them in the constitution is there?

    5. ‘It must be dodgy cos I haven’t had any leaflets from the ‘no’ side’ We DO understand how referenda work, yes? Some groups support a yes vote, and try and persuade people to vote yes. Some groups support a no vote, and try and persuade people to vote no. There are no (major) groups supporting a no vote. What does this tell you? It COULD tell you that it’s a huge conspiracy designed to take our children away from us, and that the government has paid off all the opposition groups to keep quiet and not oppose it, and that not ONE person had discovered this story and leaked it to the press. Or, maybe, just MAYBE, everyone who ISNT locked in their basement with a tinfoil hat, preparing for the end of the world, has realised that this is in the best interests of children, and there is no reason to oppose it? And that even groups who would normally oppose anything FF/FG/Lab put forward, just on principle, have realised that fighting this would only deny children protection under the constitution, and that political point scoring on such an important issue is not only childish, but dangerous and malicious?

    I’m voting yes. And I haven’t heard ONE coherent argument yet to make me even consider anything else.

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    • Well Adam, their is not one point you have put forward in your comment that would convince me to vote yes, now if you don’t mind try again, and btw how do you what anyones experience is?

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    • Adam,
      You refer to “The Best Interests” principle. At the moment, parents are presumed to be acting in “The Best Interests” of their children unless there is evidence to the contrary (See NMcK v the Information Commissioner http://equalityforfathersinireland.webs.com/freedomofinformation.htm). However, if this referendum is passed, Judges untrained and unqualified in working with children, will take over this role and make there decisions in the SECRET Family Law courts.

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    • John 26/10/12 #

      Thick Irish, once again sheep voting for what they don’t understand. Believing the same basta**s that have lied to them in every other referendum…thick!

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    • Just because something is in the constitution doesn’t mean it gets acted upon.. It’s 20 years since we last voted on abortion, and the constitutional amendment still hasn’t been fully put into practice.

      In this sense, if the constitution already protects children, surely the legislation is all that needs to be worked on?

      Or am I completely getting it wrong?

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    • @Ian, as it happens i DO mind trying again – it’s not for me to ‘persuade’ you to vote yes, if you have genuinely read and understood all the changes and their potentioal consequences, and still for some reason believe that there is a reason to vote no, i’d love to hear that reason – perhaps you have spotted something i’e missed? unfortunately, you havent yet posted any arguments, your only comments have been along the lines of ‘you’re wrong’

      also, i don’t know what anyones experience is apart from my own, but i know that i have had experiences in the area that the vast majority of people do not have. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

      @John, you’re absolutely right – if only people would educate themselves on the issue, they’d see there’s no reason to vote no.

      @Shanti – you’re not entirely wrong, we could further protect the right of children by working on the legislation. But a change to the constitution make these rights “imprescriptible”. Also, the changes ensure further rights that at present are not guaranteed by law, and in fact restricts the state – at present the state may use “appropriate” means can “supply the place of the parents”. The current wording does allows the courts to decide what are ‘appropriate’ means. The proposed changes require the state to use only ‘proportionate’ means, and importantly requires that these means must be set out in law, which set some guidelines and limits on the state.

      @Cathal – as the most tragically misinformed person posting today, you get your very own reply (how exciting!). But you’ll have to give me a couple of minuites to type it out, as there are a number of issues you need correcting on

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    • @Cathal – you are so misinformed it pains me. I’m well aware that parents are presumed to be acting in the best interested of their children. This referendum makes NO change to this.

      Judges are actually very experienced in Family Law cases, as they are JUDGES and tend to work in courtrooms (as a general rule).

      I’m not sure what ‘role’ you’re talking about judges ‘taking over’, as you weren’t talking about a role in the first half of your post – you were talkng about parents acting in the best interests of their children. But judges won’t be ‘taking over’ anything, or making any decisions that they don’t already make.

      Family Law courts are not ‘SECRET’ courts. they are usually held ‘in camera’ to protect the anonymity, and by extension, the rights, of minors involved in the case. Anyone involved in the case has full access, and the cases are open to judicial review/appeal in the High Court

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  • Whatever the merits if yes or no when I see the catholic hierarchy wheeling out their proxies re the Christian Solidarity Party et el to campaign for a no vote it confirms why I need to vote YES.

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    • are you voting yes just because the catholic church are going for the no vote?

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    • add Mary Ellen Synon to that list

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    • very short sighted to use the catholic church as the reason to vote yes

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    • AlMar 26/10/12 #

      On that basis kingstown I expect you will end up voting NO. I will be (pleasantly) surprised if the bishops don’t come out in favour of a YES vote.

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    • To all my repliers – ‘eh yeah – anything that the Catholic Church advocates, especially when it comes to child welfare I would take with a pinch of salt. This was the organistion that presided over the rape and torture of Irish children – and indeed still does. When its head can rationalise child rape as not really being a ‘sin’ then I would not put my dogs in the care or even in sight of a priest or other member of the hierarchy’

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    • Almar
      If not the Roman Catholic Bishops I, at least, expect the religious right to campaign for a yes vote.
      It is accepted that this amendment to the Constitution will allow the State to intervene to have the children of ‘negligent’ parents forcibly removed and subsequently adopted. It isn’t clear what influences could bear upon the State to take such action but I assume it would be the Social Services/ HSE on foot of concerns they might have and subsequently be aired in in-camera courts.
      I am suspicious of the intent of this Constitutional Amendment in light of plans to introduce same sex marriage with the attendant rights of gay & lesbian couples to adopt. If the public service, Gardai, Judiciary etc. (many of whom are of the religious right) are swayed by their convictions to pursue an instance of ‘inappropriate’ parenting in the context of a same sex marriage with a vigor in excess of that which they would normally act there is scope for abuse by the State of these new powers. There have been many instances in the past where the State, through the authority of Gardai, Social Services etc., have acted in the interest of the religious right over & above that of children.

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    • Almar
      If not the Roman Catholic Bishops I, at least, expect the religious right to campaign for a yes vote.
      It is accepted that this amendment to the Constitution will allow the State to intervene to have the children of ‘negligent’ parents forcibly removed and subsequently adopted. It isn’t clear what influences could bear upon the State to take such action but I assume it would be the Social Services/ HSE on foot of concerns they might have and subsequently be aired in in-camera courts.
      I am suspicious of the intent of this Constitutional Amendment in light of plans to introduce same sex marriage with the attendant rights of gay & lesbian couples to adopt. If the public service, Gardai, Judiciary etc. (many of whom are of the religious right) are swayed by their convictions to pursue an instance of ‘inappropriate’ parenting in the context of a same sex marriage with a vigor in excess of that which they would normally act there is scope for abuse by the State of these new powers. There have been many instances in the past where the State, through the authority of Gardai, Social Services etc., have acted in the interest of the religious right over & above that of children.

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    • kingstown
      that is such childish arguement . If the Church then you are going to vote yes . Pathetic .
      Read the proposed wording , then read the current wording .Compare them ,and decide with a bit of knowledge
      behind you.

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  • An excellent article. Well done for articulating your well balanced opinion. I will be also be voting no. I sincerely hope that the Irish electorate will see through this unwise amendment. Our children are fully protected under our Constitution.

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  • Greg 26/10/12 #

    so the argument seems to be that we don’t need the referendum as we already have the legislation. So, why vote no then?
    unintended consequences! sure you can argue that for anything. let’s never do anything in case it turns out imperfect some unknown time in the future!

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    • So why have a referendum at all if all the protection is their?

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    • This whole referendum is a PR stunt by the government.
      This waste of money was a soft target in their manifesto, which they are wheeling out now to improve the public image of the government parties.

      For me, a No vote is not against children or their rightward, it sends a message to Fine Gael and Labour, “Stop arseing about wasting our time and money on legislation that already exists, get on with the business of fixing the actual problems with this country”

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    • Then why is Sinn Féin actively campaigning for a YES vote?

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    • David: Just because a party is in opposition does not mean that must adopt a polar opposite stance from the incumbent government, in fact it is good for opposition parties to be seen supportive on certain government policies. If they see value in constitutional amendment on children’s rights, then that’s their prerogative.
      Furthermore for a party that already suffers for a negative perception in the minds on many, being branded “child haters” is the last thing they need. Plus they too can ride the wave of success and backslapping if it’s passed through.

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  • This Referendum from my Experience of A survivor of Child abuse In Care of a residential home” luckily enough to be alive to tell the tale” but the state were then responsible for me, Mr Haughty who was in Government then, was responsible to make sure children like me and other children were check up on, but this never happened in my case, I was born in 1971, and the state took myself and my twin off my mum, all because she was not married, I was Born in Mother and Baby Home, and then shifted off to another Home when you become of age 2 years old, they send you away to anther home, and that is when I experienced hell, I remember from 4 years onwards the cruel infliction of pain and I was send out to a family on holiday periods, to work at the age of 5 years old and I was physically, sexually, emotionally, verbally abused over and over again, so let me tell you the best thing was when they changed the constitution to articles in 2005, then a lot came out into the open, but I tried to tell all social workers about what was happening to me from the age of 5 not later, but nobody had listen to me then, the words from the social workers mouths were, that the child had a vivid imagination and that made me more angry and betrayed, so don’t go there. please, I am not letting the state do what they did to me, Neglect ion, ignored, betrayed by the state, churches and the state were then in charge of me and other children like me” but the one thing that came out of it I got my Freedom of Act info and Traced my mum, but the Bad news was I was too Late she died in Magdalene home at the age of 28 and I was only 15 and a half, so I have all the Hospital Reports of my Abuse and Etc, I even got all Vaccine Trials abused upon me every year I was brought to inch core clinic for two vaccine trials and in the school I was residing in one vaccine trial and loads of sugar lumps which made me very sick and also rashes all over my body for four weeks after all Vaccine Trials, I Have all the Proof in Black and White got pit tens in my Compotation for Evidence which I had summated in Black and White at The Redress Board, nothing for The Vaccine Trials,

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  • I have to agree with seamus MC dermott this is a vote for jobs. jobs for a failing sector of the powers that be .IE solicitors,adoption agency’s, court system, social workers, hospital consultants etc.etc. what the government are doing with this referendum is similar to what they done for the motor industry with the scrappage deal, its a terrible comparison to make but it just goes to show the importance of our kids worth to politicians and advocates of the yes vote.to use our kids to boost the job numbers. our kids are already protected in the constitution people voting yes need to take off the blinkers and do your home work I say again our kids are already protected in the current constitution which part of this statement do you not understand.
    I can only imagine that a lot of the yes side are single people and for the yes side to be so adamant in there protests it a pity they haven’t taken the recent decision by bernardos who plan to supply kids in care to KFC without payment using the excuse of getting them training for there future go try and justify that.

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  • A yes vote means more adoptions, which means the government saves money on foster care. its that simple, cut backs at the expense of our childrens lives. Grow a back bone government and tell the truth.

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  • Vote NO – or you could have your great grandchildren forcefully adopted, taken away from your grandchildren, after you’re dead:-)
    (What comes round goes around , the natural cycle , hehehe)

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  • Really surprised how lazy this article is.
    On adoption he claims a constitutional change isn´t needed because only a small number of children were adopted who had unmarried parents. This is a totally irrelevant fact to the problem at hand- children whose birth parents are married but who are in long term foster care, can never be adopted into another loving family due directly to the current Constitution. He avoids dealing with this.
    On abuse being a result of our ´societal values´in the past not Constitutional deficiency- we must remember that the Constitution itself is a snapshot of our societal values in the 1930s when it was drafted. A time when children were seen and not heard, a time when it was only a parent´s business to do or not do what it wanted with their children.
    He quoted Judge Hardiman:
    ´The Constitution does not prefer parents to children. The preference the Constitution gives is this: it prefers parents to third parties, official or private, priest or social worker, as the enablers and guardians of the child’s rights.´

    Misleading. Here children would be effectively deemed as third party. What Fahey suggests is that judges would of course listen to the children of that family in a court case involving say, divorce proceedings, for example. But what he fails to recognise is that, Constitutionally, this is not currently a legal requirement, but depends on the judge, on the day. Therefore we´re treating each child differently depending on how a judge feels, not will the full force of Constitutional law.

    Fahey also states that an unintended consequence would be to pit children against parents. Aside from the fact that in certain abuse cases it will be a positive thing for children to have the same weight in court cases, it nevertheless in no way undermines the parents or the family within the Constitution. What it does is bring the rights of children up to the same level of importance as the rights of parents when the judge is weighing up the various competing rights, in order to make an informed, balanced, final verdict.

    On his final point, he throws in the fear. I agree we have accountability issues in our family courts behind closed doors. But again, this is an entirely separate issue and should not be used as a reason to vote no. What this amendment does is update archaic language relating to families and children from the 1930s, to allow more flexibility for all parties (children, parents, single or otherwise) in 21st century Ireland. But it´s also the highest law in our land, trumping any Act passed by government. It´s a values document for all citizens, what we believe to be important truths for all Irish people. Our children should be in there.

    Reply
    • Simon,

      I think you missed his point about adoption.

      His point about the very low adoption rate of unmarried parents children was intentional, he was illustrating that it is rarely used in the group where adoption of fostered children IS an available option.
      It was a subtle point; you were meant to logically extrapolate the same demand to the group where adoption isn’t available, and realise that very few foster parents actually want to adopt.

      If it was true that they do, then you would see more adoptions within the unmarried sample group; but there is only 16 out of 4400

      Hope that clarifies his point.

      Reply
  • The constitutional amendment is about one thing and one thing only: giving the state more power in the family home. The main change to notice is the one from “appropriate” to “proportionate” which means that if the amendment is passed that the changes have to be written into law. Vague wording and laws to enforce this make for a really bad precedent.
    The state has an abysmal record in the area of child care. Remember all the child abuse in religious institutions, those kids were placed there by the state.
    We need to “fix” the bias and ineptitude in the system *before* we give it more powers.
    See my blogpost for more reasons to vote no: http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/no-campaign-childrens-referendum-649534-Oct2012/

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  • Nice to have a bit of balance finally.

    My questions were always.

    Is this change actually necessary?
    What is the potential for unintended consequences?
    What is this concept of giving child a voice?……to what degree, remember they are children and have not finished developing their brains……
    To point about adopting foster children seems unusual……and very minor……what are the checks and balances? isnt the point of foster care to be temporary….and to allow the parents to sort themselves out?

    I have a feeling this is a very complicated issue with huge levels of competing rights, and consideration, being presented as something obvious and clear cut.

    This should be taken a lot more seriously, and debated in depth, considering seriously every aspect and possible consequence, and the accurate limitations of the current set-up.

    My two cents.

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  • I think the author is out of touch with the day to day realities but his comments are probably relevant academically.

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  • Not to get into all the arguments for voting YES. Without this amendment to the constitution we will continue to be in breech of the UN convention on the rights of the child

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  • A few things

    The abuse highlighted in the Ryan report was not caused by “societal values”. It was caused by a corrupt influence that still exists today in the church. The laundries and reform schools were set up as it was the normal thing to do in society. To say the abuse was caused by the society is absolutely wrong

    It says that the Roscommon case would not have happened if the articles in the constitution were followed. This in itself is no reason not to have these new articles added. Can the author provide reasons why the new articles are bad rather than saying that they are in the constitution already.

    Will the new articles allow children in long term foster care to be adopted? I believe it is currently the case that children from a married couple cannot be adopted if the parents do not give up their rights. I believe that it does not matter that most adoptions are of younger children. It will allow these children to be added to the list. If they were not on the list to begin with they could not be adopted in the first place.

    To bring abortion into this is reprehensible. The same argument could be used to rip up the entire constitution and start again.

    Th article states that if passed the courts will change from what happened in the past to what will likely happen in the future. Surely what happened in the past will be used as a guide to what would “likely” happen in the future. The author obviously has no faith in the judiciary, even though he was a one some time ago.

    A commenter posted that this government will not get their hands on his children. Even if is is passed it is extremely unlikely that good parents will come up before the courts.

    This article has not changed my mind. I suppose I’ll have to keep looking

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    • But extremely unlikely really isn’t good enough

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    • It is now, and will be, “extremely unlikely that good parents will come up before the courts”. Probably true for bad parents, too.

      (Mind you, who really knows – and who is entitled to impose their view – what is a “good” or ” bad” parent ? Easy to say in the extreme cases, when they are revealed, but the marginal cases are the ones which cause the difficulty).

      However, one can be sure that it is going to become less unlikely if this amendment passes. Maybe that is something that just has to be accepted. After all, “nothing to hide, nothing to fear”, eh ? (NO ! No ! NO !) Any mistakes will be quickly corrected, no permanent harm done, compensation will be paid of course etc etc. Right ?

      If one could be assured of all that, voting would be easier. I am not assured.

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    • Extremely unlikely is all your going to get.

      Bad parents are brought to court every day that’s what the courts are for.

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  • The Roscommon case is cited by both the YES and NO vote advocates. It’s safe to say that both sides can agree that these children were exposed to abuse to such a horrifying degree it can only be describe as pure evil and the way they were ignored by state bodies was unforgivable. The NO voters seem to use it as an example of how untrustworthy the government is and unanimously agree that they can never be trusted as they will willingly let something like this happen again.The YES vote advocates use the Roscommon case as an example of something that should never be let happen again, and by amending the constitution we can try to do this. We cannot undo what has been done, but instead of looking back and repeatedly referring to the Roscommon case as an example of further failings by the state it would do more good to physically act and put in place preventative measures to safeguard children from further abuse.

    Gerry states that “…children may be pit against their parents and….may be taken from parents simply on the say so of social workers…” Does he really believe that it could ever be that easy to remove a child from his/her home? Or that parents who love and care for their children will have social workers calling to their doors to kidnap their children. Because that’s what is being implied, and not just by Gerry but by the many people who have been completely misinformed. The legacy of child abuse will forever cast a shadow over our history, but this amendment is being proposed out of respect for all those children who were abused and with the hope that other children will not have to suffer the way they did. Simply put, a parent who neglects, physically, sexually or emotionally abuses their child will have him/her taken from the home. Those are the criteria needed to be met before a child can be taken.

    He says that in German family courts every child from the age of 4 has the right to have their voice heard. This is brilliant. If the amendment is successful then Irish family courts will also open their ears to what children have to say.

    With regards to the X-Case being an unforeseen event for the people who voted yes for the 8th amendment, I sincerely doubt they could have foreseen a 14 fourteen year old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant by him. Another case of a child being abused by an adult. At least justice prevailed there.

    What boggles me is that he appears to be in favour of amending the adoption act. So instead of simply going ahead with this current amendment which supports the adoption of children regardless of their parents marital status he wants the 2010 Adoption Act to be changed so that the ‘small number of children can be adopted’. I wouldn’t call 6,000 children living in long term foster care a small number. And should we all just go along with his assumption that ‘adoptive parents want very young children’ and ignore the not so young children? Do these children fall into a specific age bracket? Tick a box? Regardless of age, every young person has the right to a loving family and that is what they deserve, whether they are a cute little baby or an expressive teen.

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    • @Cait Ní Bhradaigh

      You stated “With regards to the X-Case being an unforeseen event for the people who voted yes for the 8th amendment, I sincerely doubt they could have foreseen a 14 fourteen year old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant by him. Another case of a child being abused by an adult. At least justice prevailed there.”

      I am pro choice by the way and am an advocate of defending children’s rights and protecting them from abuse. I brought up the 8th amendment simply to demonstrate the dangers of unintended consequences, and NOT to make a prolife argument. As you point out in debates pre the passing of the amendment if someone had brought an hypothetical scenario similar to what happened to the 14 year girl people would have said rubbish. I understand that peter Sutherland did raise such concerns at the time.

      I came across this ’14 year old’ type of example of possible unintended consequences with respect to the 31st amendment which highlights my concerns about 42A.1, in particular.

      “Anne is a 5th year secondary school student who is a sexual active 17 year old. She lives, with her parents and 2 younger sisters aged 10 and 12, in a house in Ballsbridge. She is in a relationship with a 25 year single male, Tommy. They engage regularly in consensual sex and Anne uses contraceptives. Anne is insistent that she has Tommy stay overnight with her from time to time in the family home, and share her bed.

      Her parents object because they do not agree that her sexual behaviour in the family home is appropriate for a number of reasons not least of which is the example it gives to Anne’s younger sisters. Tommy supports Anne and frequently stays with Anne even though the parents have expressed their objections to him. Finally they insist that Anne leave the family home because of her behaviour.

      Anne and Tommy go to the local social services office and they are briefed on their rights:

      1. Since both Anne and Tommy are over 17 they are not breaking any law by having consensual sex.
      2. Anne’s parents are duty bound to provide for her educational needs.
      3. Anne is entitled to free legal aid to take her parent to court for failing in their constitutional duty to provide for her education in that they will be disrupting her education by forcing her to leave home,
      4. Anne’s barrister tells her that her best interests will be the paramount consideration in the court case.

      42.1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
      42A.1 The State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.

      Anne then issues court proceedings against her parents.”

      Under the amendment Anne’s parents could be ordered by the courts to have Anne remain at home even though she and Tommy continue to engage in consensual sex against her parents wishes. Failure to obey such a court order could result in the parents going to prison for contempt of court.

      As you rightly point out there are 6000 children in care – 16 of those were adopted from long term foster care in 2010. According to Joan Burton 1600 of the 6000 have parents who are married. Based on the 16/4400 proportion of children with unmarried parents, the equivalent number for married parents is (16/4400) multiplied by 1600 i.e. 6 children of whom half can be adopted under the 2010 Act because the courts would deem them to have been abandoned by their parents. These have every right to be adopted – simply by changing the 2010 Act by amending Section 23, as Hugh O’Flaherty pointed out.

      You should look at my original article as an overall critique of an amendment which will result in many more innocent parents – mainly young single mothers – who will have their young children wrongly taken from them because of 42A.2.1, on top of the existing error rate of 1 in 4 that happens in the courts at present. This means that, based on the most recent figures, 400/500 children a year will be wrongly taken from their parents (1/4 of the 770 taken into care as a result of court orders, plus a dramatically increased number arising from a change in wording from ‘for physical and moral reason’ to ‘if the welfare or safety of any of the children is likely to be prejudicially affected’.

      This is why I, and others, are against the amendment. The consequences for the 400/500 children wrongly taken from their parents is what concerns us as well as the Anne-Tommy type of scenario (as you rightly pointed out not many would have foreseen the X case scenario).

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  • this comment is for Adam gill. Adam for a man who portrays himself to be of high intelligence and advising people to check out Hse stats you would be well advised to take your own advice.
    just picture this government as the other half of your wife’s new partnership, they now have the sole power to tell you to f**k yourself and that you will never see your kids again because if your ex wife or girlfriend makes any mistakes while caring for your kids what ever chance you had of being a dad to you kids will be taken from you. then you will know what its really like to have to fight for your kids, I would suggest to you before you educate the rest of us, educate your self first.
    No child should suffer in any way but this referendum is being pushed for a very very small minority and the truth be known very little are in danger, it is this government who put these kids in danger by no providing the basic life supports need to live in this modern Ireland of total corruption, what ever happened to majority rules. people are far more intelligent than you give then credit for.
    and to make the assumption someone is stupid is a very silly thing to do.

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  • Let’s look at the application of the law. There is a simple question you must ask yourself: Do you trust the HSE?

    Ultimately, it will be the HSE, acting as “the State”, who will make the decisions to take the child in to care.
    If you trust the HSE to do things right you should vote yes. If you don’t then vote no.

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  • Two recently published articles that are in agreement with the article by Gerry Fahey

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/experts-warn-of-national-vote-to-bash-families/?cat_orig=world

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/instead-of-lip-service-lets-act-on-failings-3281709.html

    They both contain the views of members of the legal professions.

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  • Vote No to This Bogus Children’s Referendum, this referendum for the children’s rights, is not about the childrens protection, but its about labeling your children and parents of a profit economy boom for FG and Lb and FF and for SF its about getting a free pass ticket to other countries on a UN Card identidy, i promise you its not looking good if we vote the wrong choice in this referendum, i have seen and read enough to make my mind up, very dangerous taken out article 41/ 42/ and replacing it with the USA and British Law, also the State Government would have more power over the childrens free Education Rights and medical Rights so that They and EU can privatised Schooling Fees and Health Fees on our Children. Wrong Choice, We have the Full Protection already there, Alan Shatter Knows this as he Signed a Draft bill up to Fully protect the Children in March of This year, so why do we need this Referendum, to do a DIY Job and Give The government more Extra power over your children and Disability and you all will fall into this Trap and your be confided into secret Courts and The Government can Control The economy budget and to Save the States from Paying a reasonable payment to Single Parents and uneployed youths are the Biggest Targets of All, This Childrens Referendum is in the name of Angela Merkel and Enda Kenny and David Cameroon, organisation of The plan B programme of Economy profit Ganda Regime to Fully Control them over Voting powers Like Britain as they do not have a say, it also effects the media in Article 10 of the constitution of what they can say or not say,

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  • As a child I was taken wrongfully from my father after my mother was put in to a mental institution. But whatever my father tried he couldn’t get us back as he was just the father. I was sent from foster home to foster home until i was finally 18 (2 moves a year on average), to people who just cared about the money they got every week for us, not about the well being of me and my siblings. We were left hungry, wore very worn clothes and were beaten regularly by them. Many foster-parents are surely nice people, but me and my siblings were unlucky in the placements I guess. in the 13 years I was in care there was only 1 nice family I was placed with. When I was 18 I ran. I am a mother of 3 wonderful children now and have a very loving husband. And there is no way in hell I will give the state more power than me or my husband over my children, ever. If anything should be changed it should be giving the unmarried fathers more rights, not the state. If my father had had them me and my siblings could have had a good childhood. the state have destroyed more families than they have helped. I know for a fact that most foster parents are in it for a living, as I have relatives that do it ( and they do a fine job) but they wouldn’t want to loose their income of a couple of hundred euros a week through adopting them. Truth is that most people who want to adopt, want very young children. I could not sleep soundly at night knowing that my vote could destroy children and their families. The job of the state should be keeping families together, not tearing them apart at will.

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  • PLEASE SUPPORT THIS PAGE THIS IN FAVOUR OF A NO VOTE

    THANKS

    https://www.facebook.com/VoteNoKeepParentsInControl?ref=hl

    Reply
  • Anyone still undecided? Go to http://www.mayoreform.com/ for more information on the Children’s Referendum.
    Be sure and listen to this also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLOy37Rq_k

    Reply
  • I think it’s incredibly unlikely that the family courts are defying the constitution and legislation just because they have no public accountability. Do you really believe that that many judges and lawyers are going to act illegally just because no one is reporting on it? Word would get out if that was happening, there’s too many people involved. It’s ridiculous to make a claim that just because we have no proof that something isn’t happening, it is happening. That’s just scaremongering.

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  • Ken Reid 09/11/12 #

    Hardiman and O’Flaherty are simply two opinons form the judiciary. let’s not forget Justice Catherine McGuinness advocating strongly for a YES vote and calling for a referendum way back at the time of the Kilkenny Incest Investigation in which she took part. legal academic and constitutional expert Oran Doyle also called for a YES vote, even though he wasn’t too happy with the wording.

    In addition, Hugh O’Flaherty resigned in disgrace so is discredited.

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  • twillix 09/11/12 #

    Hardiman and O’Flaherty are simply to opinons form the judiciary, and Hugh O’Flaherty had to resign in disgrace so is discredited. let’s not forget Justice Catherine McGuinness advocating strongly for a YES vote and calling for a referendum way back at the time of the Kilkenny Incest Investigation in which she took part. legal academic and constitutional expert Oran Doyle also called for a YES vote yesterday, even though he wasn’t too happy with the wording.

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  • i am confused, i was going to vote yes, not because its what our gov ‘ says to vote but because ISPCC are saying vote yes and i have great respect for them, but after reading comments here i don’t know

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  • Liam Collins
    Tues, 30 Oct.

    My question is who makes the decision whether the child/children are in ‘ physical or Moral danger to warrant ‘Intervention’ ? also how severe is it for parents to ‘ fail in there duty ‘ towards their children to warrant ‘ Intervention’ ? who makes the call?
    I think this is a plot to head off forthcoming mass break down of the family structure caused by the terrible stress all families are subject to by this Government with their diabolical handling of our lives, they are all right Jack though!!

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  • re fine Gael fans comment. as parents we don’t need to fail our kids to be part of a constructive discussion you are obviously not a parent,well not a participating one any way. and it is typical of people like you to deflect from serious issues, if you wish to be part of a serious adult discussion go ask your masters how to participate in grown up conversation your masters being fainna faiI have no doubt they will educate you on what your next move should be.
    and with regard to your throw a way statement, I would never fail my kids, and if I did it would be a result of your teams performance.

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  • BoyLeonZ 27/10/12 #

    Upthumbs please :-*

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  • It’s a vote for jobs!!

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  • im confused!!!! i wouldn’t go by what the gov ‘ says but i was going to vote yes because i have great respect for the ISPCC and they are saying to vote yes, after reading comments here, i don’t know

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    • I know how you feel. A very good friend of mine volunteers for the ISPCC and works on their phone line and does great work. I think the problem is with some people higher up in the organisation and with the ideology of childhood that their literature contains. In thier booklet Citizen Child they state that every child has a right ” to express and experience their sexuality at any age”. As a parent I have a big problem with that because we, like most parents, don’t want our children to be sexualised at an early age. And I would like to discuss with them what do they mean by “experience their sexuality”. If they mean children being sexually active , do they mean kids with each other or ( perish the thought) with adults? But if you ask any regular volunteer with the ISPCC about this they don’t even know that this is one of the “rights” the ISPCC is supporting. So I think a lot of these organisations are being hijacked and used to push a particular view of childhood which is far from our normal view. Because of this I am suspicious of the government’s intent. I have a special needs child and we have already had to take a case against the State to try to get a school place for our son. I am afraid that this referendum will let the State off the hook. ( by deleting art. 42.5) The State has never wanted to provide proper services for my son.

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  • Now try it, you just try to run all that is proposed here without reference to the special case of the Traveller families, you can’t , not even with a solid YES vote on Saturday November 10th – and this is why this referendum is a complete and total Confidence Trick because no legislation that will work , without provision for the Traveller families can actually work, and such provision can’t work either as everybody must be equal under law.
    So if Frances Fitzgerald gets her Yes Vote she still cannot legislate as laid out for the purposes of this referendum with no mention of the Travellers anywhere, but even if she now produced legislation to make them exceptions to the rule it can’t be done anyway as we all have to be treated the same under law.
    Any or all legal eagles here must by now realise that it is all a Sham and a Confidence Trick of being asked to vote for something that can’t be done without that Traveller exception , that can’t be done either!
    Come on the Travellng People your existence has not now only shattered the Government but all Irish political parties in Dail Eireann as well and exposed them all as Fakers and Charlatans.
    Thanks for your help, Lads:-)

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  • Has anyone looked at the case of Keegan v irish gov in the ECHR, and is the government trying to circumvent this judgement, Look what happened to him. He was a unmarried father who the mother decided to put their child up for adoption. He was forced to fight through the rigmorole of the irish courts, district, circuit, high, and surpreme court, before he could take his case to europe, The ECHR decided that a couple who have been living together as a married couple should be treated by our courts as a defacto marriage and enjoy the same rights as a married parents.Now the government instead of raising the protections of cohabiting families to the same as married families is intent on lowering the protections of both to the lowest possible level. As for the ability of the judiciary well as one who has had vast experience of our incamera legal system, and seen judges in action from the district court up to the high court, all I can say is that the constitution and justice are locked out with accountability and public scrutiny.

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  • This article puts a very interesting spin on things, the issues with regard to social workers taking children is worrying however it is a judge that will make the decision not a social woker – this should be made clear,

    I will still be voting YES in the Referendum for the following reasons.

    Art 41 concerns the family and recognises it “as the natural and primary unity group of society” – it guarantees to protect the institution of the family. The Constitutional concept of a family is one based solely on marriage.
    So if you are in a marriage that is destructive and volatile, or even if you are about to become separated you will have Constitutional protection; however families that are stable and enriching but unmarried are not given the status of a family under our Constitution and child of these families and 2nd class citizens.

    In NWHB v HW (2001) the courts up held the principle of parental autonomy, this was fair enough; however the court stated that it could only justify intervening where the ‘actual life’ of the child was in danger. Also family rights (based on marriage) are protected over and above the welfare of any one member of the family – this has been to the detriment of many children.

    Art 42 again places its focus on education within the family ( married) and parental autonomy when deciding on the best interest of a child.

    Childrens rights are supposed to be paramount however the Supreme Court feels the best interests of a child are best served by remaining with its family except in exceptional circumstances.

    The above article states that most the rights allowed for with the amendement are already provided for but it ignores the needs for a recognition of all family units. Also the rights may be provided for; BUT and it is a very big BUT; they are not adhered to and are therefore of little use. They need to be specific and relate to all children equally.

    My problem with this amendement is that it doesn’t go far enough in protecting and safegaurding the rights of all children. My other problem is that safeguards, structures and money have not been put in place to unsure that vuneralbe children WILL ACTUALLY be protected and cared for properly when this referendum is passed. So at the end of the day it will be a long time before children have in practice, any rights in Ireland.

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    • John Don 31/10/12 #

      “This article puts a very interesting spin on things, the issues with regard to social workers taking children is worrying however it is a judge that will make the decision not a social woker – this should be made clear,”

      You seem to be the one putting a spin on things: the Judge will of course be massively influenced in his decision by any report of the social worker, so in practical terms its a case of pass the parcel between both.

      So the amendment still preserves article 41, why the yes vote then? In reality article 41 will of course be completely undermined as the child members of the family will be considered separate legal entities outside of that family, EVEN IN FULLY FUNCTIONING FAMILIES as confirmed by Dr Conor O’Mahony, Law Lecturer UCC: http://www.humanrights.ie/index.php/2012/10/23/legal-analysis-of-the-childrens-referendum-article-42a-1/

      “A limitation of the current framework is that Article 42.5 only mentions children’s rights indirectly as something that the State must have due regard for when intervening to supply the place of parents who have failed in their duties towards their children. The existing framework is premised on the concept of State subsidiarity in family affairs, and places the State under no direct obligation to protect the rights of children as long as parents are adequately performing their functions. The obligation is a default one that arises only in exceptional cases.” So now, contrary to all the yes side spin claiming the state will still be secondary to the family Dr.O’Mahoney lets the cat out of the bag and confirms otherwise.

      The state stepping in in exceptional cases where parents FAIL IN THEIR DUTY, AS IT IS NOW, is the correct balance as the vast, vast, vast majority of children have their rights best protected and vindicated BY THEIR PARENTS!

      You also say”My other problem is that safeguards, structures and money have not been put in place to unsure that vuneralbe children WILL ACTUALLY be protected and cared for properly when this referendum is passed. So at the end of the day it will be a long time before children have in practice, any rights in Ireland.”

      These are clear reasons to vote no!

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    • @John Don, you seem to be ignoring the definition of a family as it stands; its not a definition I agree with. Also the change allowing for children of married parents to now be adopted is a positive, but there is no getting away from the fact that there is an awful lot wrong with our social care system. All children hopefully will be able to hold the stateand/or their families to account when they fail them. That is something worth voting for.

      Any positive change is a good thing. The state stepping in where a family fails in their duty (family as defined by the Constitution) all to often doesn’t happen, leaving children in absolutely dire situations.

      Your reasoning that the state not doing as the should have done regarding putting the proper systems in place, as clear reason for voting no makes little sense to me. It worries me that the state haven’t done this because I fear the status quo will remain. Obviously the status quo is not working so why would I vote no.

      If I vote no the state cannot be held to account, if I vote yes then, for example, children who at this minute are being held by order of the High Court in Special Care Units (which HIQA have found for years are not fit for purpose) will have a fundemental right as oppssed to no ore implied right.

      I don’t have a problem with children explictly have equal human rights to me, I find it strange that anyone would have a problem with this. In Ireland the courts are now very slowly to take children into care, this could be due to our recent history, our ability to bury our heads in the sand on a whole host of issues, it could be for any number of reasons.

      Also given the lack of available places and people to look after children in our care system, these children are pulled from pillar to post with little or no regard for their dignity as human beings. Their voices are not heard because of Constitution silences them. I want that to change. Thats why I’ll be voting YES but as I said in my previous post, its a pity the amendement does not do more to enchance the rights of children

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    • I also meant to say that the arguement that the no side are putting forward “their coming for your children arguement” is ludicrous. Its very much like the argument put forward by the anti divorce lobby when they tried to use the fear factor to get people to vote against divorce, as oppossed to reasoned and logically arguements.

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    • John Don
      Dr Conor O Mahony has been tweeting and states “the whole point of the article is that almost no change is being made. see http://twitter.com/ConorUCCLaw

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    • Dr Conor O Mahony has emailed the Vincent Browne show following the debate on the Childrens Referendum, because he is being misquoted and states the whole point of the article you mentioned is that almost no change is being made.

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  • Mr Fahey writes that there is no legal need for the proposed amendment to the Constitution. However, surely an amendment which will explicitly declare the rights of each child in Ireland as individuals who merit consideration can be nothing but a positive development in the law?

    In relation to the implications of the amendment for adoption, the fact remains that there are today up to 2000 children who for whatever reason cannot return to their families and yet who, because of the marital status of their biological parents, must be deemed abandoned to be even considered for adoption. The amendment will ultimately allow for greater equality between children.

    Irrespective of how many children of unmarried parents were or were not adopted in 2010, every child who cannot return to their own family should at least have the opportunity to be adopted by a new family, regardless of their birth parents’ marital status and no matter how unlikely that may be!

    After the amendment is passed, the courts will still have the final say over the outcome of adoption procedures and, as is the case now, such decisions are hardly taken lightly. The only difference is that all children in care will have an equal chance at finding the stability and security provided by an adoptive family and that the best interests of the child him/herself will be at all times a priority!

    This amendment will benefit the most vulnerable and needy children in Ireland. This is why I will be voting YES on November 10 and encourage everyone else to do the same!

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    • You obviously haven’t done your homework. The good ole adoption panacea rolled out again. 1 in 4 adoptions break down can you imagine 1 in 4 children being rejected by their birth parents?

      There are hundreds of children in Irish State Care who were adopted in other countries and when the relationship “Disrupted” as they call it, the children were dumped into the”Care” system, at least those who were not sent back to their country of origin with a note pinned to their coats.

      Adoption has a 75% chance of being a good thing for Orphans who have no parents or family. Children in “Care” have parents who the see once a week in many cases. this is a good thing as many are dumped on the streets by the system when the “age out” at 18. In addition to this they also have Foster Carers who have opened up their hearts and homes to them. breaking ties with birth parents, the vast majority of who have not even been accused of a crime but lost their parental rights, is an extremely bad idea. This is really about the Government saving money. Foster Carers would not want to give up €339 a week per child and if they really want to adopt them, there is nothing stopping them adopting at age 18.

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  • A yes vote would give the state more rights than the parent. So I assume the same also applies with the rights of the grandparents?

    So, I wonder how many of the grey voters, who in fairness are usually the majority, would vote yes if they realised their rights as grandparents would be directly affected?

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  • Well said, Eoin.

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  • The only reason a person would vote no is if they have failed a child in their care, thankfully the people of Ireland know better than to trust those kinds of people on such an important issue.

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  • If people vote YES in this referendum it would change the lives of the two little girls who are fostered in my family. It would provide them with a stabe future and power to move forward in their lives in the future. My mum will fight till the end to ensure these two girls ever ever return from the envirnments that they were rescued from. If i told you the stories that both of these 2 girls came from it would keep you awake at night wondering how sick this world actually is. A yes vote would mean stability and a bright future for these girls. My voice as a person who lives with foster children is one of many other people who dedicate their time and lives to foster children to ensure a life can be changed. I am not looking for an arguement or words of hate from my post, I just want you to consider that if you were a 1 year old girl out at 5am in the cold with your mother while she drinks and takes drugs , wouldnt you like a brighter future??? From my point of view a YES vote will change the world of these 2 foster girls for life.

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    • Stephaine,I am sorry to hear about the two little girls life but what about all the other children have gone missing or died under the care of H.S.E./ State. I am a mother and i would walk to the ends of the earth for my kids,but i am still going to vote No. And if yr mum or yrself want to adopt the two little girls u can, but i doubt u be willing to give up yr fostering of nearly 400 euro a week, u would lose it once u adopt.

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