Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
ONE MAJOR ABSENCE from the 1999 Irish curriculum, compared to the UK equivalent, was computer science. I trained in the UK and taught the subject. In it, children were taught how to format text in Microsoft Word and to create fancy animations in PowerPoint.
There was little in the way of thinking but lots in the way of learning skills that might be adapted to other subjects but generally weren’t. In fact, computer science was taught as a separate subject and was not integrated with the rest of the curriculum.
In Ireland, technology was used to support the curriculum, rather than it being a subject in its own right. I’m not sure whether this was a deliberate move or a lucky accident but what it meant was technology was supposed to integrate into every aspect of the curriculum.
While there are many reasons why this took a long time, by now in 2017, there are very few teachers in Ireland who are not using technology to support the curriculum in some way or another.
Computer science as a Leaving Cert subject
Computer science is to be fast-tracked as a new Leaving Cert subject from September next year. However, I think the current (1999) curriculum had it correct. We don’t need to introduce computer science as a standalone subject. We need to help teachers find ways to integrate ICT into their teaching of the current curriculum subjects.
A class blog is a brilliant literacy tool. Podcasts sort you out for oral language. A decent internet-linked camera can provide the most interesting of maths trails. The internet is the best reference tool you can get for the social sciences. Brainstorming is a skill that is enhanced by online tools such as Padlet.
The huge power of technology is it allows pupils to communicate, collaborate and create with pupils all over the world. European projects such as eTwinning and Erasmus allow children to learn different aspects of different cultures in a way that couldn’t be done before the advent of technology.
Coding at primary level
My main argument was that when it comes to coding, in a very similar manner, I don’t think it’s important to teach children how to code. I think it’s important to think about how we code. Let me explain.
I studied computer science in college and computer programming (or coding) was part of the degree. Coding isn’t really that difficult – there’s very little one needs to do except sequences, conditions and loops. A good programmer doesn’t just know how to code. They have something extra – the ability to solve a problem.
All of us in our class were competent at coding as that’s the easy part. The classmates who became very successful did so because they were good at thinking rather than being better at coding. I can give a really simple example of how anyone can code but a good problem solver will do better.
If you were asked to give instructions to draw a square, you might give the following steps:
This is perfectly adequate and is an example of good programming. However, someone who can think at a higher level might say:
Repeat the following 4 times: draw a line x cm long and turn 90 degrees
This achieves the same result but is a much higher level of thinking; and this is exactly what we need: children who can think at this level so if they are interested in computer programming in the future, they have the necessary skills to take it on. How we code, is basically a synonym for how we think. In the above example, both answers are correct, but the second one is thought out much more.
Solving problems in a creative way
We need to start asking our pupils to solve problems in a creative way and integrate these problems into all subjects across the curriculum. Sometimes, a computer will be a valuable tool to achieving this and sometimes it won’t. Sometimes, writing a computer programme will make the problem easier to solve and other times it won’t.
The most important thing pupils need to learn about problems is how to break them down into smaller pieces and then tackle them in different ways.
Coding is only a very small way of being able to do this and there’s no harm in it being taught in some way in primary schools as part of the current curriculum. For example, how about getting children to create a dialogue in the programming language Scratch on the topic of their favourite TV show? How about extending this to ask the children to find out Ireland’s favourite TV show. The skills required in this extension are similar to those of coding but don’t require children to learn how to code.
I think it’s really important that we don’t add computer science as a subject to the curriculum or we’ll end up making it a discrete subject where children will blindly follow whatever textbook publishing company decides is appropriate to learn and it is unlikely to get integrated into other subjects, much like what happened in the UK.
What we need is for ICT to remain subject-neutral and to enhance teachers’ knowledge and skills in utilising the power of technology through the various subjects in the curriculum. Learning to code is not the answer. Learning to think is.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Yea, so in a modern Ireland that is heavily involvet in SaaS companies let’s not bother giving our kids a basic knowledge of the fundamentals of these IT based companies. Let’s restrict them so that they are unprepared for Ireland in 20 years. Good opinion mate!
@Damien McDaid: Did you actually read the article? Cos that’s not what it says at all
@Hurt Stoogie: I did read it. All of it and I don’t agree with him. Hence my comment.
@Damien McDaid: nor do I, I think we should be teaching coding in second level, from enterprise level websites to mobile apps and games. This stuff takes very little investment and might see students actively using the school computers for a change. The hardest part would be getting someone with those skills to work for a teachers salary.
@Ben Coughlan: I agree. Children should start the fundamentals of coding in second level. I have a information systems degree. 50% of the class dropped out after 1st year as they didn’t really know what it involved. We were completely clueless starting that course. A basic understanding of computer binary systems, software patterns and graphic design would be a start.
@Ben Coughlan: This is fantasy land stuff. 60% of college students in 2nd year of CS couldn’t write an Android app to save their lives, there is no way it will be taught effectively to second level students.
@Damien McDaid:
I did compute science in UCC. We did not touch a computer for several weeks, we sketched out the fundamentals of programming in lectures, variable assignments, loops, scopes, etc first.
The author is absolutely right, we need to get children comfortable with a logical approach to problem solving before anything else, e.g. doing Sudoku or this puzzle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox,_goose_and_bag_of_beans_puzzle just as a couple of examples. Then they’ll have the fundamental skills in place. Simple things that don’t involve teachers getting expensive training, expensive computers and using languages may be obsolete in 15 years.
@Derek Deveney: I disagree, the earlier you start with the basics the easier it will be later. I have seen first year students from a secondary school taking part in an app development course teaching the basics. If that was integrated into the actual curriculum, I have no doubt that by the end of the year a lot of the kids would at the very least know the basics, I also think there would be many kids that would surprise us in that they struggle in other classes but excel in this. Why not teach something in school that can actually be useful in later life?
@CazzoA: Students get Graphic Design in Art…but apart from that Computer Science is such a versatile area to work in. We also need to move away from the “everyone needs to go to third level” mentality. Plenty of students are not suited to academic life, however they could have the key skills to start working from leaving school with a good grounding in several key areas, computing being one of them. @Ben Coughlan There are plenty working in FE that teach computer science on a “teacher’s salary”. On top of that if you brought in a special rate for teachers teaching CS there would be war from the public cos “don’t they get enough already”
@Damien McDaid: Have you read the article? As somebody who has worked the in IT sector here for over 20 years I 100% agree with the author. I have worked in successful startups , global multinationals and all kinds of companies in between. We do not need to focus on coding in schools its completley the wrong focus. I have worked with many graduates who come out of some of our 3rd level institutions with software degrees who can quote coding language specifications verbatim but lack the basic problem solving and analytical thinking required to be a good software engineer.
We should focus on teaching problem solving a better focus on Maths and analytics. A good general background on information theory and how the internet works. These all deliver sound fundamentals.
Well said Simon! Let’s put this one to bed for once and for all. The primary curriculum is already crowded enough. Those teaching it constant complain of having insufficient time to teach it properly. Using Technology within the curriculum is what teachers and pupils need. Very few people know what lies within a computer but that doesn’t stop them from using one. Coding may be a great challenge for some but, in reality, it holds little attraction for the majority of pupils in 1st or 2nd level.
@PeteMcC: maybe we could scale back some of the hours dedicated to preparing kids for catholic ceremonies to free up some time.
@Eyepopper: in fairness he is a leader in an Educate Together school, but I fully support your suggestion and I suspect he would too.
@Paul Fahey: yeah, was replying to the comment about the primary curriculum being too crowded, not the article.
@PeteMcC: You are wrong, however you could make the same argument of teaching Irish or religion off the top of my head. Remember it’s not compulsory either.
Do we have the skill pool to teach it? Especially at primary level I doubt it.
@Chemical Brothers: I suspect you hit the nail on the head there, with the exception of the author, there won’t be many qualified people capable of teaching coding so it’s easier to just say we don’t need it.
We can compare ourselves to the best countries and teach our kids in a similar way to them – or we can keep doing things the way we’ve been doing it for the past 30 or 40 years. Very little has changed, our kids are taught in much the same way we were taught, but our society has changed dramatically in that time. The biggest change in that time has been technology, and our children’s education MUST reflect this.
@Chemical Brothers: The answer is no. It is hard enough to get skilled people to teach in 3rd level.
@Chemical Brothers: They do not have the skill to run now in the playground?
@Derek Deveney: At third level most people teaching it are “industy experts” who tend to have poor interpersonal skills. However there are plenty of teachers teaching CS at FE level. There are a number of teachers who can already teach it (myself included) however there are courses like the 21st Century Teaching and Learning postgraduate award – part sponsored by Google – operating out of TCD. Teachers learn how to use different skills such as coding in python, scratch (though I am not a fan of this), using a raspberry pi among other things. But at the end of the day, its the skill of learning that matters, not necessarily the ability to teach something. More often than not, if a student has passion for something, they will learn it – look at coderdojo. You have ten year olds building apps that top the iOS app store. No matter how good a teacher, a digital native will learn and they will teach each other too.
I think you’re greatly overlooking the fact that coding is only a small part of Computer Science. If the school course is anything like a college course I’d imagine it’ll touch on graphic design, engineering elements around architecture, psychological aspects in HCI, Networking, conceptual modelling, testing protocols, relational databases, software quality etc. as well as general applications like e-business or mobile or whatever.
Your point on integration makes sense at primary level but not at all to be opposed to an optional leaving cert subject. Having a basic appreciation for coding logic integrated across the school program will not greatly help someone with an ambition to study and work in the field.
@Rochelle: The syllabus of the new subject will be interesting. It can’t dig too deep into any topic but a good broad understanding of what is is involved would be a very useful subject. Any idiot can code. Assume it teach technology types rather than discipline within them.
I am giving my opinion on the reference to second level only here –
We absolutly need Computer Science as a standalone subject. Every year CS courses at third level have the highest dropout rates. It is crazy to think students have to choose a four year degree in the discipline without having experienced it as a subject.
It will also give those who plan to study CS at third level at least one subject where they can develop their ability in a way that is more relevant to their intended course. I get what Simon is saying about problem solving and similarly transferable skills but there is no substitute for time working on projects and becoming familar with implementing algorithms and writing code. It aslo gives students with an aptitude a chance of getting a good grade in a relevant subject rather than having to spend time studying a less relevant subject of less interest to them.
In countries where CS is offered at second level, third level institutions can assume students will have an understanding of the fundamentals. Undergraduate programs here must assume no prior knowledge so third level institutions are wasting precious time on basics which should be understood and developed at a younger age.
Given the ubiquitous nature of computing and technology it would a pity not to let students explore this further as part of their school education. It is a huge part of the life and world of teenagers and experience writing code, data representation, databases, how hardware and software work is as important as many other subjects currently available. Even understanding viruses and hardware/software troubleshooting would be beneficial later in life. As students use more mobile and tablet technology their understanding of the technology is disappearing and those devices are abstract them from the workings of the tech more than a desktop or laptop computer.
Some my age may remeber buying a Commodore 64 or Spectrum/Amstrad. To load the cames need commands and the manual included sample programs to get going. Now a finger is all you need. This is great in terms of access and creativity but makes the technology more ‘magic’ than science.
My experience teaching in the UK system there were two subjects – A Level ICT (which included word processing and presentation productivity) and A level Computing (problem solving, programming, information systems, databases, OS etc. no word processing/presentation software).
@Conor Power: “It is crazy to think students have to choose a four year degree in the discipline without having experienced it as a subject.” I agree to an extent but this is hardly a good argument to have CS in second level unless we are to also have Nursing, childcare, Medicine and every other subject not taught in second level brought to second level and clearly that is impossible.
@Derek Deveney: I agree. Most university courses are completely foreign to a new student, having never touched on the subject in formal education before. The idea is that you have the freedom to choose what you want to study and explore it using the skills you learned through other subjects.
Medicine is aided by science, literature is aided by English, Russian is aided by Irish, archeology is aided by geography and computer science/coding/etc is aided by maths.
These are all subjects that (in their college level courses) are totally beyond a leaving cert student, but that is the point. In university their use their previous knowledge and apply it in different ways. There’s no need to learn coding in primary school. If kids want to learn it they can, and do, as a hobby.
@Derek Deveney: yeah, but you can learn biology at second level which would be a good foundation starting point for medicine , and any medical relate career.
I can only speak to my experience. I had the absolute fortune of doing Computer Science as a leaving cert subject. My teacher set up what I believe to be the first recognised second level computers course in the country. He went to UL and WIT who had input on the curriculum and scored the exams, then WIT gave points for it and UL accepted a pass as entry into any computing related course regardless of points achieved in the leaving cert. I ended up going to CIT to study computer science and the early start I got over other students really stood to me. Now I don’t know if I would have been successful anyway but I got my 1.1 this week. And if I hadn’t been introduced to what CS really is at leaving cert level I probably would have ended up as an accountant. And hated it.
Well written, Simon. You’re spot on as well. And there’s a huge question over the skills of teachers who can deliver a computer science or coding curriculum at primary level.
I see no issue with computer science as an optional subject. I agree with the integration of technology and enabling children to use it as part of solving a problem for example. Coding is merely configuring a technology to do what you want it to. The important thing is the student understanding exactly what is to be delivered and how to go about it for the best “customer experience”. Coding is no different to writing an essay in English where language is the delivery mechanism. Good article thought
He has a point.
By the time the kids in primary school will be old enough to use their coding skill in the workplace, computers may be coding themselves or be able to understand natural language. Structured problem solving is a much more valuable skill – with actual coding coming later.
The people who generally call for “coding to be thought in primary schools” are the people who don’t really understand what coding actually is.
Calling for all kids to all be thought “coding” Is a bit like calling for all kids to be thought how to write a novel using Peter and Jane level English.
Excellent article Simon! Your right on the money in my opinion. I’m currently involved in a volunteer teaching program with teenagers and I’m increasing frustrated with the focus on coding rather than problem solving skills, the only people more frustrated are the students. I see it firsthand, creative problem solving is the way to unlock a student’s interest and potential in computer science.
Computer Science is the science of understanding how computers work and the sooner children get a chance to learn it the better. C.S. isn’t for everyone but starting at Leaving Cert is too late. Learning MS office is not computer science. learning to program/code – if the student can – will set them up for the rest of their lives.
Coding is very difficult, programming in general is. But Ireland has some of the brightest technological minds in the world so I don’t think it’s such a issue
“Coding isn’t really that difficult – there’s very little one needs to do except sequences, conditions and loops”
Yup like brain surgery isn’t that difficult. There’s very little one needs to do except perform surgery on brains.
Excellent article, Simon. You’re right on the money in my opinion! I’m involved in a volunteer program to teach teenagers computer science, but I’m increasingly frustrated with the focus on coding rather than problem solving. I’m not the only one frustrated, today a student emailed me to ask if it were possible to cover more content on breaking down problems. I’ve seen firsthand how creative problem solving can unlock a student’s interest and potential in computer science.
@Michael Gallagher: tell the student to study Art. You do lots of problem solving in Art.
I am in favour of having ICT as a Leaving Cert and/or Junior Cert subject, but there are difficulties and the author makes some valid points about how to teach ICT. I think that critical thinking could added into the course in the from of puzzles and that could be worked in the final exam.
regarding the point:
“… will blindly follow whatever textbook publishing company decides is appropriate to learn”
Yep, this is valid… The big problem with the LC is that it is just a giant memory test , and the argument that you need to teach creative thinking could be aimed at many of the subjects on LC, not just ICT.
….
Is coding easy?? I am not sure, it seemed straight forward to me , but its is not for everyone. Newer languages make it seem easier. Coding in C & Machine language is not easy and has to be done carefully. for example – Pointer arithmetic is tricky , but modern languages don’t have that.
Excellent article, Simon. You’re right on the money in my opinion! I’m involved in a volunteer program to teach teenagers computer science skills, but I am increasing frustrated with common misconception that engineers just need to learn to code. Just today a student wrote me a mail asking if it would be possible to cover more content about how to break problems down. Teaching needs to focus more on creative problem solving, I’ve seen it firsthand how this unlocks a student’s interest and potential in computer science.
We learned Cobal in secondary as ” the next big thing .” Complete waste of time . Teaching children to think and learn to use problem solving strat
Brilliant article. As a computer science graduate with over 20 years in industry I couldnt agree more. The focus on ‘coding’ is the wrong focus. Problem solving skills and basic analytical thinking are far more important skills in the modern workplace and are areas I have seen some software graduates lacking in.
Let children develop before stuffing their brains with everything?
I’ve read some crap in my time but seriously Simon? You want to hold back kids from their development??
@Kerry Blake: Thanks for the comment. I’m sorry I have added to the crap you’ve read. However, I’m pretty sure teaching children how to think creatively rather than coding by numbers is a good thing. The headline might have given you a false impression of course.
@Simon Lewis: I am qualified in both art and computer science. Both teach problem solving and searching for creative solutions in different ways. As someone who uniquely straddles both areas, I can say that without a doubt Computer Science is needed as an area to facilitate the competencies of people who have those skills or desires to work in that area. Many other countries offer it at the equivalent of LC level – in fact we offer it at QQI Further Education certification. As someone who has taught in that area, many students lament the fact they could not study their passion for their leaving certificate. It is an important 21st century skill. I would also argue that there should be at least one hour a week for ICT skills. Plenty of students get through school without proper competency in working with programs like Word, Excel or Collaborative Technologies like GSuite. They don’t know how to write a letter or send an professional email. These are fundamental skills that we need to cater for here and now.
Coding should definitely be an available subject in secondary school as a non mandatory subject as it isn’t for everybody. It is a practical skill i.e. it should be taught by people actually writing code not listening to a teacher giving a lecture.
As an example of practical subjects, I could give a 2 hr lecture on long division or I could get students to do 3 example in 15 minutes. They will significantly faster and more in the 15 mins of examples than in any 2 hr lecture.
Get them in front of computers writing code you be amazed how quickly they pick it up. Start with simple examples and move them towards more difficult problems. It simply takes time in front of a pc. Anybody who spends more than 5 mins white boarding an example/problem is wasting their time.
Doing is learning, with code, the more examples/problems they do, the better they get. Alternatively they find out they don’t want to learn code and don’t join a third level Sci Comp course and drop out after one yr.
Sci Comp courses are often poor prep for being a coder also, given the amount of non coding crap they force you to learn. Hence the increased popularity of coding bootcamps worldwide.
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It is very hard to get teachers/lecturers to not inflict passive learning on students, i.e. standing in front of a class talking while they listen bored out of their minds, retaining very little of what is being said.
Get them writing code, everything else is time wasting. Problem solving skills will develop along side the coding skills. When they see better solutions they will pick them up quickly having learned the harder way of doing a problem.
@Bob Mac Ene: I’m a big fan of the khanacademy.org programming syllabus, it follows your “just code” approach, and can be delivered in a bootcamp setting, but it isn’t the full package. The student is led the whole time, put them in a scenario where they aren’t given step-by-step instruction and they will be stuck.
> Sci Comp courses are often poor prep for being a coder also, given the amount of non coding crap they force you to learn.
I fully understand your point about hands on, and I understand any teaching style which is teacher talks and students write notes, will have reduced impact. But that is true in any subject, it’s up to the teacher to engage the student. I remember an equal mix of useful and useless prep classes from 3rd level, but the classes I found productive had an enthusiastic lecturer and a new challenge on each slide. Boolean algebra was one of my favourites :)
http://www.bitstutorial.com/weebly.html This is an amazing product that teaches the basics of computer science. Don’t students deserve at least that some people don’t even know how to set up a directory. On a personal level if I didn’t do ECDL (which is very expensive might I add) during transition year I wouldn’t know how to use word or PowerPoint effectively. This product teaches students the basics of computer science, and is extremely inexpensive. Would highly recommend it. It’s being to schools internationally and is getting amazing feedback.
http://www.bitstutorial.com/weebly.html This is an amazing, cheap product that is being sold in schools internationally, and has amazing feedback so far. The main aim of this product is to teach students the basics of computer science each school makes a once off payment and it is theirs to teach. It has proven very beneficial already and it is only taking off. Students need to be taught computer basics at least. The only computer classes I ever took while in primary or secondary school was ECDL and while it was educational it was extremely expensive. I highly recommend schools take a look at this product.
Sure we will just allow all the children to do Arts in UCD – see where that gets us in the future.
@YouHaveGotToBeJoking: Thats a bit reductive. Arts offers a broad education and arguably many who take it do not know what they want to do, so they study something broad. Many go on to further study. Since I did my LC in 2001, the points for Science has shot right up, I think it was either 365 back then, it’s close to 500 now. We need diversity in education, and we need diverse skills sets, however to mock those who choose arts as an academic path is very offensive.
have your say