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Dublin: 11 °C Monday 20 May, 2013

Column: Ethnic recognition for Travellers would help fight racism

Travellers face racism on a daily basis – and the State is aiding this by denying the group’s ethnic identity, writes Damien Walshe.

Travellers march for ethnic recognition in Dublin in 2009
Travellers march for ethnic recognition in Dublin in 2009
Image: Mark Stedman/Photocall Ireland

MOST PEOPLE NOW take it as given that there is some racism in Ireland, but that it is a very recent phenomenon. Not only are statements like this extremely damaging (there often is an implicit blame on new communities for ‘creating’ the problem of racism by coming to Ireland), it is also completely untrue. Travellers, Ireland’s largest ethnic group, have faced racism and exclusion since the formation of the State.

Travellers face individual racism on a daily basis. They are refused access to pubs, find it next to impossible to book venues for weddings, christenings and communions, and even something as trivial as booking a hair appointment becomes a struggle due to your name or accent.

Even in death families often encounter anti-Traveller racism as they try to pay their last respects, because they experience problems with funeral arrangements and headstones for their loved ones.

While this is highly distressing, institutional racism – which is often harder for marginalised groups to name or put their finger on – still has the greatest negative impact on Travellers’ lives today. Institutional anti-Traveller racism is easy to identify in explicitly anti-Traveller legislation such as the Trespass legislation (Housing Act) of 2002 which criminalises nomadism.

But institutional racism can be seen in the first Traveller-specific policy developed by the State in 1963 which set out to stop Travellers being Travellers and end their way of life by assimilating them. In some respects, this policy set the template for Traveller-State relations for the next 40-plus years.

For this assimilation policy to work, the State has had to consistently deny that Travellers constitute an ethnic group – despite all the mounting evidence from sociologists, anthropologists, European law and the recognition of Irish Travellers’ ethnicity in the UK.

‘Not about skin colour’

Ethnicity recognition is not a trivial matter and has impacted enormously on Travellers’ lives for the last 40 years. Firstly, the denial of ethnicity trivialises the racism that Travellers face. “Travellers don’t experience racism, they are white and Irish,” is a regular comment in relation to anti-Traveller racism. If Travellers don’t experience racism, it suggests that Travellers are somehow responsible for the racism they experience.

Racism as a word has a power all of its own and we can mostly recognise that institutions of power play an enormous role in racism. However, if all that Travellers face is discrimination – not racism – then the State’s role is abrogated and all that needs to happen in Ireland for Travellers to achieve equality is for a few people – Traveller and settled – to change their ways.

As Ronit Lentin, Head of Sociology in Trinity College Dublin said at the Irish Traveller Movement (ITM) Annual Conference on June 25 in Wexford: “The refusal to acknowledge Travellers as an ethnic group itself smacks of racism in viewing racism as emanating only from biological, racial difference – though racism, as we know, is never only about skin colour.”

Racism and ethnicity denial by the State has had untold consequences for Travellers, and this was pointed out by Thomas McCann of the Traveller Counselling Service at the ITM conference. If the State criminalises your culture, your beliefs and traditions – a State that racialises Travellers and categorises them as ‘lower’ – then Travellers, like other marginalized ethnic groups, internalise this message they receive from cradle to grave: that being a Traveller makes you less than the majority population.

‘National disgrace’

As Thomas pointed out at the conference: “There is clear and compelling evidence that the long history of cultural oppression, racism and marginalisation has contributed to the high levels of mental health problems found in many communities. This is no different for the Traveller community who have experienced racism, discrimination and exclusion for generations.”

The fact that the suicide rate for Traveller men is eight times higher than that for settled men should be seen for what it is: a national disgrace. It is the kind of stark statistic that should have politicians clambering to demand an inquiry into the conditions that have created this despair among Travellers. Such an inquiry would no doubt lay part of the burden of guilt on those who have criminalised Travellers’ way of life, told them to turn their back on their culture and left them on the margins without their identity and without hope of every fully participating in Irish society.

Negative stereotyping in the media and the inability of the education system to accommodate difference has meant that according to Wexford activist Mary Helen Connors: “Racism is a factor of our daily lives as Travellers. We have had reports of Traveller children being called abusive names in schools following television programmes such as My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding.”

With that in mind, the Irish Traveller Movement held its annual conference in Wexford town to put anti-Traveller racism back on the agenda and to continue our campaign for Traveller ethnicity to be recognised by the Irish State. Wexford was chosen for the 2012 conference following requests from local Travellers to highlight their plight at a national level. Locally, Travellers in Wexford experience many forms of individual and institutional racism – above the national norm – but despite having one of the largest Traveller populations it has no Traveller representative organisation to campaign for Traveller rights locally.

‘Sad reality’

Anti-Traveller racism doesn’t stop at the personal or institutional level. Travellers now face a new level of racism – cyberbullying – through websites, email and social media. The Irish Traveller Movement has challenged a number of websites over this, and is aware of the impact of new forms of racism on an already-oppressed community.

In an ideal world, when this comment piece goes live, hundreds of Travellers across the country would add their views on how they experience racism and what they would like to see happen to build a truly pluralistic society. The sad reality for many is that engaging in online discussions inevitably leads to hate-filled anti-Traveller invectives – ones that claim that you can’t suffer racism as a Traveller, especially if all the stereotypes are true.

In Ireland, one of the real crimes of the 21st century is that it remains acceptable to vilify an ethnic group so publicly and expect no reproach. As the activist Eamonn McCann said at a previous Irish Traveller Movement conference: “Anti-Traveller racism is the racism in Ireland that dares speak its name”. The first step in defeating anti-Traveller racism is to name it and know what it is. And ethnicity denial by the State has, and continues to have, a significant role in the racism that Travellers face.

Damien Walshe is a representative of the Irish Traveller Movement. For more information, visit their website.

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Comments (134 Comments)

  • I think that if settled people had better experiences with travellers, there would be less bad feeling towards them. There are two halting sites near us and – although I am sure there are good people amongst them – the only experiences I ever have had of these neighbours are of intimidation, aggression, alleged stealing at the local shop, dangerous driving and constant illegal dumping right outside the gate. The bad element drown out the good.

    I may be prejudiced against this type of anti social behaviour, but I take exception to being labelled a racist. I am against people who refuse to abide by the laws that apply to every other citizen.

    I also think that the government feed this bad feeling by never prosecuting for the fly tipping or the dangerous driving. They seem to look the other way and just clean up the mess. If I was leaving rubbish outside my gate day after day, you could bet I’d be in front of a judge in no time. Why are travellers seemingly given a free pass?

    • Firstly unlucky in the tennis and secondly I agree 100%

    • I agree totally too. I have experience of travellers too and again its not good. There are good among them but the usual minority give the bad name. Also too many institutions give them whatever they need whether they qualify or not, this is down to being intimidated by being called a racist if they question a traveller. Totally wrong. They should be treated the same as everyone else and obey the laws too. It has to stop and local councils cop on. Govt has to cop on too.

    • Sorry I just don’t understand so please enlighten me if I’m wrong. But how are they a different race to the rest of the Irish on this island???, race is defined by distinct and different physical charicteristics from others, so how in what way are they different. As far as I know they share the same genes as the rest of the Irish from here.

    • Aaron t 10/07/12 #

      My bad I jumped the gun and read the title wrong. But still can’t understand how they could be their own ethnic group

    • agree completely. Of course not every member of a group can be blammed for wrong doing, but I personally have had enough of one portion of society expecting the rest of society to support them financially and blatently ignore the law and offer “its my culture I should be allowed to break the law” as a defence”, If I can get a ticket for having no licence for my dog, my car, my telivision etc, then I expect everyone’s behaviour to fall under the same law’s. If I decide to take to the roads in my caravan and illegaly move onto land, light campfires leave rubbish and taxpayers have to foot the bill for clean up, while at the same time claim social welfare without having a fixed abode that can be verified. If I want social welfare assistance or a bank account or anything for that matter, I need to show proof of address plus a gas or electric bill. Why should one portion of sociey be exempt from these rules. You cant have it both ways. If you belong to one group you cannot expect to have the benefits of the other group and omit the rules you cannot be bothered complying with all in the name of “we are different” its very easy to scream racisim or discrimination but you cannot have it both ways.

  • The best way to fight anti traveler animosity is for Well Meaning Hard working Travellers to purge their community of those who cause trouble. That would be a nice start.

    • So to gain your respect, all the WMHwTs have to do is embrace… well, obviously not ethnic cleansing because that would lead to potentially fatal cognitive dissonance among the majority of posters on this thread? Punishment beatings? Tarring and feathering? Kneecapping? Either way your definition of WMHwTs seems to be that they embrace arbitrary, extra-judicial violence. Interesting.

    • @Seamus

      na, speaking out against trouble makers suffices. You have too much (morbid) imagination.

  • How about treating travellers just like anyone else in Ireland for a start? If I towed a caravan onto a green area of my town, I’d be prosecuted. If I didn’t send my kids to school, I’d be prosecuted. If I made sure my wife didn’t have any kind of independent existence, I’d be vilified by society and not many would think much of me if I kept ny kids from school.

    If I didn’t pay tax on my income, erected a dwelling with no planning permission, abused animals or had bare-knuckle fights with my relatives, I’d be prosecuted.

    This happens every day in Ireland, but there’s rarely repercussions for the travellers that break the law. As for law-abiding travellers, I don’t think that a culture that defines itself by its lack of participation in the society it lives in is necessarily one we should be protecting.

    Using the racism card is all very well, but black people, for example, by and large are law-abiding, decent and most importantly contributing members of Irish society. Contributing in terms of culture, work and leisure. Travellers neither participate, nor seem interested in, Irish society.

    If they want to, and are willing to cooperate with the enforcement of the laws, standards, morals and responsibilities that everyone else here does, I’ll happily and unequivocally welcome this.

    • Well said, Joe! Be careful though, it seems that the OP is allowed call us racist but we’re not allowed generalise when expressing our opinions about travellers.

    • Joe you have stolen the words I was going to post. I hear Damien repeatedly talk about “Traveller culture” but he does not elaborate what exactly this is. My personal experiences of this group in my area has been wholly negative, I’d be grateful if Damien could maybe expand on his article and highlight the positive influences that “Traveller culture” has on Irish Society and how they contribute to the country to help educate us rather than preach to us.

    • Its just like a few weeks ago when they were caught racing their ponies on a dual carriage way, and a van was driving on the wrong side of the road to film them. They were arrested but not charged with anything. If me and my mates decided to do the same you can be damn sure I would have a court date now for cruelty to animals, wreckless driving and operating a mobile phone while driving.

      And you have that bloke from pavee point who releases a statement that says, “ah now lads, c’mon less of that now. You can’t be caught doing that” Then goes on to blame the government for not having enough facilities set up for pony and trap racing. Its nonsense! The only other country softer than Ireland as regards this stuff is the UK.

    • @olaf, I didn’t realise all the Travellers were on the road that day. Using the actions of some of a community to denigrate the rest is just lazy, and unhelpful to trying to solve the problem. I saw a few drunk settled lads fighting in Galway over the weekend. Maybe’they’ – all Irish males-should not be served alcohol as they obviously can’t handle their drink and are a danger to others. So what if it’s part of their culture, the non-drinking males should get them to wise up. This is the argument you are making.

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      @donncha – your argument is thin and you know it. If it was just the sulky incident well, it would hardly have got a mention, but we all know it’s much more than that. Travellers, for all the column inches about their infighting and general bad behaviour are just 1% of our population. 1%.

    • @Donncha – I don’t get where you are misinterpreting what I said…I didn’t say anything about “all the travellers”….I was just referring to another instance where some travellers were doing something illegal and endangering the lives of other, and they didn’t get charged with anything….where if a settled person had have been arrested you could be nearly positive they would get the full whack off the law.

      I received penalty points and a €65 fine for using my mobile recently for sending a text whilst waiting for a dart to pass at a level crossing. Yet these guys can race horses, drive on the wrong side of the road and film it with no repercussions?

      My final point was that organisations like Pavee Point do very little to encourage members of the community it protects to behave within the boundaries of the law. Instead they basically ignore the serious crime committed and they make a point about how it isn’t the member of their communities fault, its those racist settled people and government that are making life difficult for them and haven’t provided enough facilities/support for whatever they want to do.

    • @Donncha – Also as regards your point about the “settled” lads you saw fighting in Galway, would you be ok with it if those lads said it was their culture to drink and beat the crap out of each? I would presume not….but if according to the logic of this article, it is racist to think what they are doing is wrong. It is your fault and the governments that they haven’t been provided the right facilities to drink and fight each other.

  • One of the main contributing factors to the high suicide rate among travellers is their oppressive beliefs within their own community around marriage, homosexuality and their ‘traditions’ around the roles of men and women. Education and action around these points could transform their image in the eyes of settled people.

    • Hi all, thanks for your comments. Just a reminder to please read our comments policy here: http://www.thejournal.ie/comments-policy/ We don’t accept comments which are derogatory to any ethnic or social group. Thanks.

    • Michael, there is not a discussion on this site that doesn’t have some derogatory posts. Being selective about what opinions are deemed “derogatory” and what opinions aren’t smacks of censorship. What is derogatory is in the eyes of the beholder, and unless The Journal is willing to forensically monitor each and every post from an entirely unbiased and neutral position, it shouldn’t start now.

      This article is an opinion-piece, other opinions should be entertained, not just statements of fact. Sure as hell, the article itself has very few statements of fact.

    • Well said Brian, Here is my opinion. This is yet another self-indulgent whinge written by a professional lobbyist that ignores many realities that are known to be true in this society. Let’s start with the first, that the Travellers are the victims of Racism, i don’t accept emotive nonsense put forward to advance his cause as there is no logical basis for the argument. Ireland has become a far more heterogeneous society over that last decade with just about every nationality and religion represented in a far more tolerant and secular state, of course unfortunately some racism does still exits and sadly it is the ugliest kind, purely on the basis on their skin colour religion etc. But from what I have witnessed the discrimination that traveller face is usually on the basis of a significant number of their populations anti-social behaviour. This behaviour discrimination is not exclusive to the traveller many settled trouble maker are barred or discriminated from entry from Bars etc on the basis of their past behaviours, it is sad that decent travellers are painted with the same brush but it the disproportionate amount of trouble form this community that singles them out , Maybe Damien would be better served looking at personal and social responsibility within his community but of course not one reference of any kind in his piece of the obligation of his community to play their part in their own destiny. Also ,Damien does not acknowledge this at all, nor does he mention that community he represents is one of the widely known very strong views on race ,sexuality, religion themselves , could be described as less than embracing or is this media hype as well ?

    • Damien’s article is exceptionally engaged and raises some interesting and valuable questions. It seems many people commenting have a fairly limited knowledge of the attitudes and approaches of Travellers.

      Pavee Point Travellers’ Centre offers a monthly information session on Traveller culture, issues and campaigns. If you’d like to attend and learn more about Travellers, please email info@pavee.ie to find out when the next session is. You’d be more than welcome.

    • A heartfelt piece and one I hope will address shameless negativity towards travellers. My questions are – where does this leave the definition of race? Of ethnicity? What about those that might try to high jack any new definition of these terms? I think we need to be aware that semantics are at play here which could be in danger of blinding us to the why? What? And how? Of the situation.

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      @jay – commenting on travellers, racism and groups high-jacking terms. Come on!

    • No offence Pavee point but Travellers can be their own worst enemy and ethnic recognition will make very little difference to this unless it comes to changes in behaviour. I can only speak from my own personal experiences but they have never been good and I would give travellers a wide berth for fear of having the shit beat out of me for no reason than being in the wrong place at any time. I personally have nothing against their way of life.

    • @Pavee Point – I think it’s good that you run workshops to let settled people learn about Traveller culture, issues and campaigns. Are there any workshops run so that Travellers can learn about Settled people’s culture, issue and campaigns?
      There is a undoubtedly a gap needing bridged, but it needs to be approached from BOTH sides.
      My culture is that all people are equal, women included.
      My culture is that I have a social responsibility to people around me – I have to do my part even if it requires effort:
      I don’t dump rubbish illegally or burn it in public places.
      I drive safely especially around children.
      I get my dog the shots it needs, I train it and and I don’t allow it to wander freely.
      I don’t allow toddlers to sit in the middle of the road where cars have to drive around them.
      If my 10 year old kid stood in the street, “squaring up” to cars and then deliberately smacked them with a stick as they passed, I would apologise and offer to fix the damage – I would not assemble a gang and intimidate the driver when he tired to complain.
      I point these things out because they are all experiences I have had with travellers which differ from my own culture. I don’t think for a second that all travellers are like this, but some are. In the case of the kid with the stick, about 8-10 men assembled, from a halting with about about 15 homes – that’s a very high proportion that got involved.
      Genuinely: Do travellers understand how incidents like this cause resentment from the settled community?

    • @Andy Unfortunately as is common place in this country that Pavee Point and other traveller movements only pay lip overwhelming evidence put in front of them, the vast majority on this form can point to similar incidents but yet these organisations will not admit their community has serious challenges . There is a “have your cake and eat it mind-set” that they refuse to overcome . For example , they will point to the lack of job opportunities, equality etc but we all know that education is key to entry to the work force yet a nomadic lifestyle is incompatible with the delivery of standard education. Are we to foot the bill for private tutors to travel with them. So guys , you have choices , you are free to make them but make them knowing that in all implicit in all rights are responsibilities , sadly a fact the majority of us know is lost a significant number of the community . Culture should be respected and celebrated, the rest of us use heritage centres and museums, festivals to acknowledge them . I must admit sometime I wouldn’t mind leaving work and heading off around the country for the summer but I can’t because I don’t expect somebody to pay for my indulgence and if they did I think the least I could do was respect the property , private or public that let me set up camp there !

  • I came across travellers – one large extended family in particular – regularly in the course of a previous job. They were nice people to deal with, I got on very well with them and came, I thought, to know them quite well. One branch of this family were then housed close to where my sister lives. I confidently reassured her that these were good people and her initial experience bore this out.

    Then, a couple of months after they moved in, they had some kind of a party. Dozens of vehicles and maybe 300+ people descended on a small estate, spilling out onto the communal green. It started noisy but friendly enough but ended in a mass brawl – really serious stuff, blood, people badly injured – with a fleet of garda vans and a couple of ambulances eventually arriving to break it up.

    Sadly in the months since then this has proven not to be an isolated incident, there is regular trouble at the house, noise, rubbish, cars/vans/jeeps all over the place preventing other residents from being able to park etc. What was previously a pleasant green area is churned up, with burnt grass, broken trees and sometimes horses grazing what grass is left.

    It’s this sort of thing that makes people lose hope and lose respect, a culture where even those who would be described when you meet them in one situation as being in ‘ the majority of decent travellers’ behave at other times in a way totally outside that which is acceptable to most of the population.

  • Scarr 10/07/12 #

    It’s a bit rich of the article to accuse business owners of being institutionally racist against travellers if they try to book a Function or christening. It’s nothing of the sort. It’s about risk/ reward. The reward is cash in the till. The risk is having you business damaged by fighting and brawling. That’s a factor whether traveller or settled, but the risk factor is multiplied with travellers. We only have to look back a few months to see stories of fighting with weapons in a school, samurai swords at a wedding and other recent melees. Travellers have to take ownership and responsibility for their perception and position in society.

  • I have met some fine travellers in the course of my work. But like others who posted, I dislike being accused of racism when I see bad societal behaviour by them. The rubbish especially. It annoys me that they get away with it.

  • My dad once said to me when I was a child ” don’t like or dislike anybody because of their skin colour or race, sexuality, beliefs or disability, like or dislike them based on their actions” I have always tried to keep that in my mind when dealing with people. I don’t know any travellers personally, and that’s equally their fault As it is mine . I have had some bad experiences with travellers though and that makes me wary. I do feel bad that there is a group of people in our society that I am happy to ignore. I don’t know how to change that, because I don’t think they would want to know me either . recently I was waiting in an a&e dept with a really loveky travelker family. they were really playful with the children, kind. Caring and funny people. You need more positive experiences like that and maybe visa versa, (they experienced me as being friendly) to help matters. As long as we live in seperate circles and never mix, we will have negative views of each other and the “racism” will thrive. But certainly, I can’t get away with dumping rubbish outside my house, being anti social or committing crime and I would feel negativity to anybody doing that , traveller or not, and having a special ethnic status does not excuse those things. We have to meet half way.

  • I have no issue with travellers and think it is great we have a sub-culture. However, in practise travellers cause trouble more often than not. I have the right to defend my living.

  • Nobody should face discrimination or abuse based on their membership of a social group as it simply reinforces an already adversarial relationship between communities. The travelling community I believe have a place within Irish society, not as a separate race, however, as there is no scientific basis for such a distinction. The (mis)application of the word “race” and “racism” in the discussion of travellers and the settled community has only intensified the acrimony between these two groups in society, as people often feel it’s being used as trump card to silence their critics when in fact, living in a democracy, everyone should be open to some form of criticism.

    The fact remains that until travellers cease to embody the most dysfunctional aspects of Irish society (violence, alcoholism, criminality, lack of respect for private property ownership) and engage in serious introspection and self-examination, rather than blaming all of their woes on the settled community, they’ll continue to experience difficulties integrating with wider society. When videos surface on YouTube of faction fights and dangerous sulky races that put the lives of innocent passers-by, animals and the travellers themselves in danger, it’s hard not to arrive at certain conclusions.

    The resentment that the settled community holds toward travellers is based on the perception of a “legal apartheid” where normally unacceptable behaviour like violence, criminality, alcoholism and educational under-achievement is packaged under the word “culture” when it is discussed with regard to Travellers.

    Another factor in the ill-will towards travellers is the sense of unreciprocated expectation that Travellers apparently have towards society at large, and the way in which people feel they have managed to successfully lobby the Irish “rights and equality” QUANGO industry to dominate the debate in the media such that it is generally about travellers’ rights but never ever about their responsibilities. So ingrained is this sense of expectation that one traveller representative was actually fined €7,800 by the Equality Authority for frivolous legal complaints which cost Clare county council €150,000 in legal fees.

    As I said, I feel travellers deserve a place in Irish society free of genuine discrimination and abuse, but at the same time, they ought to examine what their contribution to society should be as opposed to constantly demanding and lobbying for things for free which a member of the settled community wouldn’t have a hope of obtaining.

    • Couldn’t agree more with your sentiment. People can (and should) only judge based on their own experiences- unfortunately the majority of my own dealings have been negative. The traveling community COULD bring so much to our society, with their own heritage and traditions, but a lot of internal work needs to be done first to mend relations with the rest of Irish society.

  • This whole article is based on a fallacy. If you have a minority that get treated worse than everybody else then that’s an oppressed minority. If you have a minority that gets treated the SAME as everybody else but feels they should be treated BETTER than everybody else that’s a group trying to set themselves up as an elite.

    Introducing laws to give travellers special status in our society where trespassing is okay (so long as you’re the ‘right’ ethnicity) and planning laws don’t apply to you (so long as you’re the ‘right’ ethnicity) isn’t getting rid of institutional racism. It’s *creating* it. And I pick those out specifically because it’s the current holding of travellers to the same Trespass laws as everybody else that’s decried as ‘racist’ in the article itself.

    But if this principle that Travellers are a special ethnicity is introduced into law, surely it follows that other special privileges follow? I mean, as the article snidely admits – ethnicity is commonly identified by a separate language, clothing, religion, national identity, race, or combination of those factors. Since travellers have none of these* the test falls entirely on ‘culture’. And given that, in the past, sections of the traveller community have sought to justify violent assault, obstruction of justice, rape, sex with underage girls and a host of other things as ‘cultural’ we should pause before we give legal protection to ‘culture’.

    This is the country after all, which messed up a simple aspiration that women should be able to be stay-at-home mothers if they want so badly, that social services wound up fretting they couldn’t remove a child rapist from the house where her children were. I don’t see how we could introduce a protection of ‘traveller culture’ without similarly screwing it up. Or politicians simply aren’t up to it.

    And, finally, I would say that when you have a community where misogyny, homophobia and racism run rampant I’d probably lay higher mental health and suicide primarily at the door of those factors than criticism of those factors. I agree it’s a ‘national disgrace’ but one which would suggest a push for assimilation, not the reverse.

    *the blather about DNA testing aside — there’s greater identifiable genetic deviation between the average white people of North England and South England (the former having more in common with Scandanavians, genetically, and the latter with the French) than there is between non-traveller Irish people and Irish travellers

  • Travellers aren’t a race. What they experience may be prejudice, but it’s not racism.

    • You may have missed this bit from the article:

      “The refusal to acknowledge Travellers as an ethnic group itself smacks of racism in viewing racism as emanating only from biological, racial difference – though racism, as we know, is never only about skin colour.”

    • @ Richard – So if someone says something is racist, it must be racist. Wow…..

    • Richard, that’s not racism, regardless of what the article says.

    • Richard 10/07/12 #

      ‘Regardless of what the article says’

      Pardon me for thinking that comment threads were there for discussing the substance of the article, not for the airing of unsupported assertions.

    • It’s not an unsupported assertion. Race is biological inheritance, something that cannot be changed. Ethnicity is ‘learned’ culturally through upbringing and society, and has nothing to do with genetics or inheritance.

    • I agree, Travellers are just as Irish as you or me, their behaviour is a lifestyle choice, and unlike the author I have intimate knowledge of them as I grew up with them.

  • Why are they called travellers, I never seen them travelling anywhere. Same site for long years.

  • Education,education,education in three words the solution to why travellers have a problem in society.

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      Some stats: travellers are 1% of the population and 10% of the prison population. Illiteracy rates are around 80%. Only 2.6% are over 65. Employment rates for travellers in 2006 were 13.8% .

  • Would love to see the OP answer or reply to comments posted.

  • All my experiences with travellers have been bad. Therefore my opinion of them is negative – that’s just human nature, not racism.

    • That’s just racism, not human nature.

    • @ richard -of course its human nature, if someone does us harm we take a dislike to them , dexter’s comment is not racist in the slightest way. a lot of this is politically motivated b/s brought about by wanna be politicians and goody 2 shoes, strange that these are also the type of people that shout loudest if a halting site or home for asylum seekers were to be given planning permission in their neighborhood.

  • “because they experience problems with funeral arrangements and headstones for their loved ones.”

    Gas stuff, does this mean that churches refusing to allow families to erect those massive garish monstrosities masquerading as head stones is actually motivated by racism? Someone organise an UN intervention, this is a human rights catastrophe

  • Im not going to even start!

  • People are not allowed to say what they think or speak the truth in the country today , we all know what is going on across the country and it is not being done by a few.

  • There is a deliberate conflation in the article between common or garden prejudice and ethnic discrimination. The term “ethnic” comes from the greek “ethnos” meaning a race of people. The travellers are ethnically Irish as proved by recent D.N.A. sampling of the community.So it is dishonest to deliberately include other issues under that heading.

    • Absolutely correct. My concern is that the use of the word “race” and “racism” is nothing more than an ad hominem attack on critics of travellers to deflect and obstruct any sensible debate from taking place.

  • Help me here, but how are travellers a “race”???

  • If you put you hand out to pat a dog and it bites you ,you’ll think twice about trying again. If travellers want respect then they need to show respect to others. Most people judge, be it to condone or condemn, by actions. I’ve come across travellers in my driveway loading up their van with my stuff. They thought that the only people living there were my elderly parents who would be easily intimidated. By the way, it was a brand new van.

  • Two of my comments were removed. The first one couldn’t have offended anybody – it was a statement of fact, the second stated that travellers cause trouble. The censorship on this article is a disgrace.

  • Gerard 10/07/12 #

    Pavee point must be having a lie in this morning, they’re normally on the defensive alot earlier than this.

  • What next ? Cork people calling themselves another ethnic Race :)

  • Travellers are subject to a form of discrimination and prejudice known as ‘the earned reputation’. In other words they bring it upon themselves by their actions, customs and practices. It is total crap and a red herring to focus on the settled community recognising them as an ethnic group when the real focus should be travellers sorting out their many serious problems from within. Being catogorised as a seperate ethnic group will only marginalise them more when they really need to mobilise from within and deal with issues such as crime, education, domestic violence, alcohol abuse, employment and living conditions so they can live properly in modern society as traveller people.

  • It’s not April the first is it??

  • I LOVE TRAVELLERS AND THINK EVERYONE SHOULD TOO…GIVE YOUR LOCAL TRAVELLER A BIG HUG! Is that biased Michael or will this comment be removed like my last one? You should allow EVERYONE express their viewpoint to give a true and balanced debate on a topic like this. This is a topic that people have strong viewpoints on. Ease off on your selective Journal policing…

  • Biased article. I stated truthfulness and comments were deleted.

    Bad bad bad journalism. Glad to see censorship is alive and well

  • Why can’t I post on this topic? It wasn’t discriminatory or libellous. Censorship or technical issues?

  • Is this the first article posted on the journal that was actually written by a troll?
    Definition- In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response.

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      I was just about to ask was this posted as troll-bait in order to get the comment section lit up. It’ll work too. It’s up there with some of Aaron mckennas articles in terms of I’ll-constructed and misguided submissions. Complete obfuscation of reality in that article. Absolute waffle that fails to ask ‘why’ on so many issues that it mentions and aportiond blame and responsibility to anyone but travellers.

    • Well written article but for me it falls in the first paragraph. Travellers are not the largest ethnic group in Ireland (2006 census) . Getting your facts wrong in the first few lines makes me suspicious of the rest of the content.

  • A purely provocative article by the journal ..but it worked so well done..

    • Just had a comment pulled and i did not once in my comment call a Traveller a name or said anything i didnt believe to be true .I wonder has the editor ever been in the company of a traveller or travellers and actually asked them what there all about ..maybe the journal should have an article about whats ok and not ok to write in your comments on articles because getting a comment pulled for no reason i find offensive .

  • It wont change anything, they will still act the way they do and people will still have a “racist” view towards them

  • several of my neighbours are travellers,and to be honest i couldnt ask for better neighbours,there homes are immaculate and they are always there to lend a hand if asked a favour ,

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      That’s good to hear Larry. And we all know well that there are decent travellers out there. But we also know there’s a large contingent who feel no responsibility to the rest of society. My cousin has the exact opposite of your neighbours unfortunately, their neighbours have the house wrecked, filthy curtains, broken window with a penchant for beating each other up.

    • Like any community there is a variety of people who act differently. I’ve met Travellers who are a nightmare, but also many Travellers who are trying very hard to contribute to society e.g. Travellers who provide health education to others and set up their own businesses. I think its fair to say that negative actions by any grouping will always be more noticeable and get more coverage, particularly when the group is such a small population. As with any individual, there is responsibility on all to abide by the law, but the challenge facing individual Travellers who are trying to do this (and there are plenty), is that they are judged by the actions of Travellers who commit crimes and engage in anti-social behaviour. If anyone (Irish, black, muslim) etc. are unable to access basic needs (the local pub, health services, employment) because of the actions of other in there community, this is racism. When this happens, a vicious circle is created, as those attempting to break out of a cycle of poverty and oppression, are unable to do so. I have heard many stories from decent Travellers, that they find work and very quickly lose their job, or are given the most menial tasks. I have also seen situations where Travellers who just want go for a quiet pint are not allowed set foot inside the door of a pub, because of the actions of other Travellers in the past. Whatever your background, ethnicity, this is just not fair, and doesn’t do Travellers or settled people any good. And expecting ‘decent’ Travellers somehow to get other Travellers to behave better is also unreasonable, if there is no support from the State and the rest of society. If I got treated like a pariah any time I tried to engage with general society, how can I persuade others of the benefit of being a good citizen? Responsibilities come with rights, but we have to support those within the Traveller community who do act responsibly, and not tar them all with the same brush, which is just intellectual laziness, and self-defeating. If a Traveller breaks the law, the full rigours of the law should be applied. If someone discriminates against a Traveller, because they are a Traveller (and nothing else), the same should happen.

  • i know a good few travelers and their families who i get on really well with, in fact they are the first to help out if i’m in need, i worked in hotels here in Ireland and we used to allow traveler weddings,but not 18 ths or 21st birthdays as these would be attended by the younger ones with little or no adult supervision, the only time we had any trouble was from a group of non- traveler men who were drinking in the bar and started verbally abusing the wedding guests, we asked them to leave or we would bring in the garda, they left ,problem over. as regards to fly tipping or littering its not only travelers who do this. the lane on which i live is used as a dump site by local settled people and businesses like small builders, none of who have ever been prosecuted despite being caught by the guards and the council, one dumper told the guards that “i thought it was a legit site” he was dumping waste building material,plasterboard,cement and the like, the situation is not helped by the fact that the local council have not cleaned or cut back the area for over 3 years. so there is good and bad in both traveling and settled people, to class one as different from the other is the cause of racial tensions itself.

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      Only a madman would say there are no good people in the travelling community, though statistically you are more likely to be an unemployed illiterate criminal if you are part of that community. In any case, traveller weddings can go off without a hitch and everyone leaves happy, but that’s a hell of a dice for any business owner to roll.

  • There is some seriously insane notions here. One person highlighted the good experience he had with his traveller neighbours and got more dislikes for what was an observation as opposed to an opinion. That brings us suitably to the post of the its not racism its human nature, which is clearly deluded, but then most racism doesn’t recognise itself as such, thats just human nature. So go ahead and hammer this with yer dislikes and let the collective annonymity of your prejudice swell

  • We need an integration policy, not just for the travellers but for all ethnic minorities. The government has failed to draw up a policy and has currently left integration between society and the minority groups. Integration policy and education on diversity would be a good place to start to reduce racism.

  • The debate as to whether travellers are a distinct ethnic group is over. They fulfill all criteria and are recognised as such by UN bodies, the eu, the British government and anyone else who is bothered to have a look. Denying it does not make it so. The issue is rather how the refusal of the irish state to recognise this reality is affecting travellers and making their experiences of racism and discrimination even worse.

    • Actually, I’d have thought recognition as an ethnic group would be the worst thing that could happen to the traveller community. It seems to be forgotten that if Travellers are identified as an ethnic group then that means that non-Traveller Irish are *also* a distinct ethnic group.

      Which would mean that many prominent members of the Traveller community would be in hot water for sweeping generalized unsupported comments they regularly make about the non-traveller community. Any time a traveller indicating a lack of respect for a doctor, or a garda or anyone else on the basis of their being a non-traveller than it would then be a racist offence. A member of the travelling community decides to have a go at a “dirty country boy” at a night club and the charge would then have a racist element and correspondingly more serious sentence.

      And that’s the main issue that the leaders of the Traveller community need to resolve for themselves — if they press on with insisting travellers and settled people be defined as different races then they need to face up to the fact that the Traveller community itself is home to some of the most ingrained and pernicious racism and prejudice in the country.

  • Great article. I have to say that I have had experiences with Travellers, and for me, it’s been mostly good. I think that the settled people of Ireland need to seriously examine their attitudes towards Travellers. If most Irish people examine their attitudes to Travellers, I think that they will find an attitude of superiority there. We grow up thinking we are better than them. They are not as good as us, for whatever reason and this shows itself in the way we talk about and treat Travellers in our community. People should consider that if you speak to and treat anybody in a disrespectful and superior way, then you are most likely going to be treated in that way by them. This, in my experience, is particularly true of the Travelling community.

    I also think that Travellers not only want to be treated with respect, but with fairness. One of my experiences was with Traveller children and I could see from interacting with them that they actually respected being treated with the same rules and respect as the other children. I expected them to follow the rules the same as everyone else, and as a result of this, they seemed to like and respect me. So in relation to this, I agree with some of the posters that they should be expected to abide by the same laws as the average Irish person, and I firmly believe that the majority of Irish Travellers would appreciate and respect this. I also believe that they should be recognised as a different ethnic group by the Government and that provisions should be made for their way of life which allow for their traditions and customs but which don’t allow anti social behaviour. It is undeniable that there are Travellers who behave in an extremely anti social way and bring hatred upon the whole community but this is true within every culture and community. People are people, regardless of what culture they are from and the reality is that some people are law abiding and respectful and some people aren’t and this can be seen in the travelling community as well as every other one. Would you allow yourself to hate any other entire culture based on a few negative experiences with the “bad apples” of the group?

    Finally, I would like to point out that one of the big things that cause racism is simple ignorance. If you don’t understand why and how a people are different to you then how can you possibly accept and love them like your own race. People should make it their duty to learn more about Travellers and about what makes them the cultural group they are and from this, they will gain understanding and acceptance. The Education system could have a role in this also, with efforts made in primary schools to teach children about the travelling way of life. Ignorance breeds contempt so make yourself aware of the culture of Travellers and make an effort to understand them. Put yourself in their shoes. Try to understand how frustrating it would be to be turned away from the rest of society based purely on who you are. If that isn’t racism, I don’t know what is.

    • My you were brought up thinking you were better than other groups of people who are ethnically or culturally different to you, but I certainly wasn’t. I was raised to judge people on their actions. My commendations to you that you have gotten past feeling that you are better than others.

      Have you ever thought how no one seems to get up in arms about “positive racism”, after all it is the same situation. You are judging someone by the perceived notions of race. For example, when the earthquake devastated Japan in 2011, many newspapers were showing images of distraught yet very calm Japanese people. There were no riots to speak of over the food and medicine shortages, even with the looming nuclear disaster. Thus they were given a reputation of being a calm and disciplined people the world over. I am sure this is not true of every single Japanese person.

      The same applies with the problems between settled and travelling communities. A significant amount of travellers do cause problems and therefore give a bad reputation to the rest of their community. Again with the usage of the word “racism” too…it can’t be racist if they are the same as the rest of the population genetically speaking.

      Think about this for a second….would you consider Chav culture in the UK a separate ethnicity? They live a way of life that is at odd with the general population of the uk, the receive massive amounts of government support, they are associated with anti social behaviour, they are generally poorly educated and have trouble finding work. Should they also be given the status as a separate race because of the way they choose to live their lives?

  • Travellers are recognised as an ethnic group in the UK and a range of national and international human rights bodies. These include the Irish Human Rights Commission, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, the Human Rights Committee, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance and the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities. Travellers are an ethnic group. The failure to recognise ethnicity and the denial of the existence of racism towards Travellers in Ireland is simply more evidence of how pervasive and deep-rooted anti-Traveller racism is.

  • Well done on a great article. Recognition of ethnicity is a cornerstone of addressing deep rooted racism. Racism is so often denied in a society that refuses to give recognition to ethnic minorities. Reminds me of why it was so important for the Irish community in the UK to be a recognised ethnic minority at a time of deep hostility, bigotry and downright harted (sound familiar). The state couldnt stand idely by and not respond or be challenged themselves. Hope Travellers get the same protection here.

  • OP has written a thought provoking article which establishes very clearly the causal link between denial of the ethnicity of Travellers and the insouciance of the society towards racism against them. Those responding to it, as usual, go beyond insouciance.

    Why is it that every time someone writes an intellectually engaged article on a genuine issue facing Travellers, the instinctive response is to imagine a different article and respond to it?

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      Probably because it comes across as a ‘poor me’ article, detailing every perceived injustice that travellers face and dressing it up as racism, without ever addressing the Why. Homophobia, domestic violence, criminality, general violence and lack of respect are all too common a tale in the travelling community but it doesn’t address that, it just calls everyone racist and embeds the victim complex further. Responsibility and respect should be the words of 2012 and 2013 for society and especially travellers. You give it out and you get it back. travellers need to step up and pay their way, I would love to know the amount of tax spent on accommodation, special schools, and the variety of interest groups that are regularly pushing this bogus agenda.

  • If we saw some of the stuff written here about travellers and applied it to the black community in the US or the Muslim community in Britain we would be appalled

    • The funny thing is Seán that you have travellers rights groups fighting for equality and quite clearly they have some semblance of that. The majority of the comments here are stating that they consider travellers to be the same as them. They are just Irish people who live in a different way to what society is accustomed to.

      Comparing it to the black or muslim community is just wrong. People with a different colour of skin have much greater barriers to overcome. All travellers have to do is behave like the average person does. I can’t tell the difference between a traveller and any other irish person based on skin colour. As I am from Dublin, sometimes travellers accents pass off as country accents to me, so I couldn’t categorically say that I knew someone was a traveller based on that. So literally all I have to go is their behaviour.

      I don’t care for example if they want to live in a caravan or marry young and not go to college. That doesn’t affect me in anyway. What I do care about is when things they do actually impact on my life. Like the rubbish issue around their sites….its their responsibility to provide a bin for themselves….not the goverments. I buy my own bins if I need them.

      Once they get their own house in order, I am sure the majority will have no issues with them.

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      Anything in particular or are you just getting offended for the sake of it? As king Olaf points out, it’s just a matter of travellers behaving the same as any other civilised person. Whether they choose to live in a caravan or are housed in an estate is irrelevant.

  • Whatever about the issues people have with travellers, their culture and so on, it seems quite clear that they are a distinct minority in society.

    If you object to them being called an ethnic minority – why is that?

    If they are not an ethnic minority, what sort of minority are they?

    • Travellers are racially and ethnically no different than other Irish people, but culturally they are different. So, I would say they are a cultural minority.

    • Fagan's 10/07/12 #

      It’s like calling people from Mayo an ethnic minority.

    • My understanding is that DNA studies have shown travellers to be a long-established distinct ethnic grouping.

      http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/dna-study-travellers-a-distinct-ethnicity-156324.html

      What I don’t understand is why people thing admitting this changes things.

    • FF voters are a minority in society. It doesn’t make them an ethnicity.

      And the DNA evidence has been subjected to hell of a lot of spin. Such genetic variances aren’t at all unusual within societies but aren’t typically used to justify special privileges for one group at the expense of another. North/South England for instance — but nobody would seriously claim the casts of Coronation Street and EastEnders are different races! Hell, it’s even been discovered that there’s an identifiable variation between FF members and FG members (one’s primarily Celtic and the other primarily Norman if memory serves) but, again, nobody would give either of those status as an ethnic grouping!

      Essentially, you can’t claim someone is a victim of prejudice because of their ‘ethnicity’ when that ethnicity can only be identified under a microscope.

    • @ Donal – The study done by the University of Edinburgh and RCSI only provided some evidence that some travellers in the group of 40 individuals differed genetically from the majority of Irish people. The generally accepted theory of how Irish Travellers came about is that they were displaced Irish people made homeless in the 16th century. Also the slight genetic differences could potentially be explained by the close knit communities that travellers maintain, i.e. they do not generally marry outside of the their culture, therefore limiting the available gene pool to them. Where as most settled Irish mixed with people outside of their communities.

      To answer your question though, I would consider them a cultural minority at the best. Definitely not an ethnic one.

    • I still don’t understand why you have a problem with their being defined as an ethnic minority.

      What does this bother people?

      Especially if you concede they are a ‘cultural minority’ – whatever the hell that is – it still allows them to be easily grouped.

    • @donal I don’t see it as a matter of conceding or not conceding anything. I don’t think there is any doubt that we can all see that travellers are a minority. I suggested ‘cultural minority’ because it seems to me that the cultural difference is the primary one. It doesn’t have any other meaning so far as I know and I did not suggest it with any hidden meaning or intent.

    • I have a problem with it because it is being used as an excuse for the behaviour of some within that community. As you can see from the majority of comments here, a lot of people have had negative experiences involving members of the travelling community (not that I am suggesting the Journal is an appropriate source of information regarding this)

      You can’t blame your own ethnicity for your behaviour….regardless of race, religion or culture, humans have a set of socially constructed morals which nearly all cultures hold themselves to. It is wrong to steal, it is wrong to fight, it is wrong to encroach on your neighbours territory. I use these as examples because these seem to be the most common issues people have with members of the travelling community.

      It worth noting that it is definitely not travellers who are the worst offenders though, travellers just have more a more organised and vocal organisation to represent them, which I think does not help there situation with the general public. Sure you just need to look at comments as regards some attackers in recent stabbing cases….”ah sure its not his fault, he didn’t finish school, he comes from an economically disadvantaged area, he was raised by a single mother”……there a plenty of people who come from situations like that who do not run around stabbing people.

      Everybody has a excuse for their bad behaviour these days. Just some excuses are more inventive than others. It is laughable that someone can be accused of being racist because they don’t like their stuff being robbed or their area being destroyed with rubbish.

  • Jaysus, they are out early this morning. thumbs down for being reminded of the policy on derogatory comments towards ethnic or social groups- really??

  • This article is fantastic, and it was a long time coming. I was talking about this yesterday with some people – the entire issue – and the group was literally split down the middle, with me and another girl believing that there was terrible racism towards travellers in this country, to the other believing that they brought it on themselves. I honestly don’t believe this is true. In fact, I believe that the problem with anti-traveller racism stems from the settled Irish people themselves. As the writer suggested, many of us feel superior, and look down on their way of life.

    I was lucky enough to go to school with many children of the travelling community as a child, some of whom were settled. I was quite friendly with some of them – but what’s interesting is that from the start, I knew that there was something that separated us from them. I’m not quite sure how I knew this, but I knew. Racism against travellers is starting in our schools, at incredibly early ages. It was perfectly acceptable in my primary school class to refer to travellers in a derogatory way. It was thought to be justified.

    This needs to be stamped out. People need to start seeing members of the travelling community for what they are – people. At the end of the day, they are just people trying to live their lives. Just because it’s in a different way, it doesn’t mean it’s the wrong way.

    • @scarr you are asking travellers to pay their way in a society that makes no space for them: as you have stated they are under educated; the irish education system makes no space for them. in employment; few are hired and have to keep their identity a secret from employers or face demotion or losing their jobs. In health; A high mortality rate.
      So what are you asking them to pay for-
      education
      employment
      health.
      these basic rigjhts are not being met by the state in an adequate fashion, so the travelling community do it for themselves as they can.

  • Do the decent thing and disable commenting on this article. The impending onslaught of vile comments from morons is really not worth the increased traffic. For humanities sake, please.

  • Maybe it would be more constructive to use the term ‘xenophobia’ than ‘racism’. The Irish are generally a clannish(clann, family, blood-relations etc.)and exclusive culture rather than a civic-minded people(that includes our Travellers). Lots of half-thought-out reactions visible on the comments. Racism/xenophobia is an attitude projected onto others(usually pigmentally, linguistically or culturally diferent from ourselves)based on the delusion of different races(as with Nazism, Apartheid SA, American anti-Afro/Asian/Native American ignorance)but does not alter the fact that there is actually only one race, the human one(we all share the same genetic substructure). This reality does not mean racism is an illusion, even though race as perceived by racists is. I lived in South Africa under Apartheid..I’ve got Traveller neighbours and friends(and have met some dangerous bastards in their communities, no less than the ‘settled’ one). Lots of ignorant bigotry on display, but like Orangeism, it wont evaporate in a hurry. In fact, our attitudes to Travellers have many parallels with Orange anti-Taigue bigotry…but then like the Indian caste system, these pyramidic power paradigms thrive on pecking-order distribution of resources. The primary resource is of course land, and the feudal pyramids of land ownership-claims through war and displacement created these deep-seated divisions and historic enmities. The patterns are repeated across the globe by European imperial colonies privatising what other cultures see as common resources to managed inclusively rather than exclusively. But then its easier to scapegoat a weak group than tackle powerful bankers, agribusiness and industrial cartels and their political minions and those responsible for the increaasing impoverishment of the general population…just as its easier blame the ‘bloody foreigner’ than tackle the structural contradictions in this system inherited from our own British colonisation. It might be worth noting that traveller ‘cant’ derives from the gaelic ‘caint’ conversation..apropriate for an oral culture closer to the original Irish than our anglophile Oirish planter guilt/resentment at these remnants of earlier displacements. The diplacements, of course, continue with our rivers of emigration…the new Irish ‘travellers’.
    Fire away.

  • De Cleir is a traveller name.

  • There has long been a fear of travellers in our society, the fear of people who live in a different way, who don’t conform to our society our norms and institutions. When you are vilified for the group you belong to, its not long before you start acting like a vilian, and it takes a lot more to break that cycle. Time after time I have heard people describe them selves as anti- racist and are clearly prejudiced against the traveller community, and spread that prejudice to their own kids, never challenging it.Those said people I have known who would have carried the prejudice in their youth against traveller inherited from their parents and social group have had it challenged later in life, after moving city, by meeting travellers and getting to know travellers, the action of moving to a place where there was a greater acceptance of the travelling community changed this person’s view point of travellers to the point where they would invite travellers to their home for social gatherings and treat them with the same hospitality that they treat any of their guests.
    One aspect that I would like to challenge on this forum is the views on waste and fly tipping. Halting/traveller sites have inadequate refuse colection if any, and if the settled community could take that into account when deciding to tar the travelling communtiy with the brush of “the mess” that they create, take a look at dublin city last jan/feb when the bins were not collected for a few weeks.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/bin-changeover-a-shambles-dublin-lord-mayor-356138-Feb2012/

    then maybe have a rethink………..

    • Ruairi just out of curiosity how much do these travellers you are using as an example pay for refuse collection?

    • Scarr 10/07/12 #

      @ruarai – why do the negative attitudes toward the travelling community persist?

    • well up until a few years ago,nobody paid for refuse collection. certainly in the halting site in lower salthill they have adequate refuse collection- and no litter refuse build up. Paul it’s a shame you are looking to pick holes, have you any solutions because we sure could use some. It’s sad that we treat and view a group of people in this country so poorly- do you agree that this needs to change?

    • @scarr, I have no way to read people’s minds all I can do is make generalisations: fear, ignorance and negative experiences trumping positive ones.