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Dublin: 5 °C Friday 24 May, 2013

Column: Working conditions in hospitals are so bad that sometimes I get no sleep at all

Writing under the condition of anonymity, one junior doctor describes a typical work week in a busy Dublin hospital.

File photo.
File photo.

I WOULDN’T SAY there’s been a single week since I’ve started working about a year and a half ago in the hospital that I’ve only had to work 48 hours a week – as the 2004 EU Working Time Directive instructs.

It can be anything up to over 100 hours a week. There was a couple of hours where I was working over Christmas where I was on call three times a week and you’d have to work the next day post-call as well.

Generally you wouldn’t get any sleep, or you might get one or two hours. You could end up working anything up to 36 hours in a row.

Thirty-six hours would be a record. But once a week you’d generally have to work 32 hours in a row.

It’s a killer. Adrenaline tends to get you through the first 20 hours. You start to feel the burn at around 4am. You focus then on the ward for a few hours, you make your way through it, you’re generally okay that night, but then the next day is really exhausting.

Overtime pay

They say you’re supposed to get time and a half. But there are all sorts of issues about NCHD overtime pay, and a lot of us aren’t getting our pay back. I didn’t get any overtime pay on my last pay cheque.

They ask us to fill in all these special sheets where you give reasons for all the extra hours we’re working, which shouldn’t really be feasible, because there’s never a single excuse for why you’re working an extra ten hours. There’s always a hundred reasons why you have to do that. It just doesn’t really work – they have to just believe that we’re working those hours and pay us the overtime. I think they’re just looking for any reason not to, and they’re putting loads of red tape in the way, so that they don’t pay us really so the hospitals don’t run out of money.

Thankfully, I haven’t made any major mistakes. There are lots of minor mistakes the whole time. There’d be occasions where you don’t look particularly professional the next day on the ward. You’d be just so exhausted and your eyes would be sort of closed and you’d just be nodding off. Things like that just don’t really look good.

Patients ask the whole time. When we’re on A and E, you might see a patient on the day at 3 o’clock. You might then get called to see them at midnight and then you might be called to see them again at 6 o’clock in the morning. They’re very surprised by that. It’s not covered up well, it’s pretty obvious that we’re working these hours. I don’t think they really understand the shifts that we do work. I don’t know if a lot of people turn a blind eye to it. I think it’s something that does really need to be addressed.

EU Directive

The 48-hour EU Directive is just being ignored. It seems to be the worst for SHOs and Registrars. Interns seem to get the next day off. But they would have to do a 24-hour shift, which is still a lot. That would be overdoing the 48 hours in itself. SHOs are constantly doing it. The Registrars are meant to be doing it as well, but they might get more sleep at night time. If a particular Reg is on call, he might get three or four hours of sleep – it’s much easier to function then. So far, when I’ve been on call, the most I’ve gotten is two hours of sleep and sometimes I get no sleep at all.

It depends on the hospital. And it depends on the speciality you’re in. In some specialities – like dermatology – patients wouldn’t need to be seen at night time, so they wouldn’t have any late hours. And there’d be doctors working in microbiology and lab-based things where they don’t need to be on call. But if it’s general medicine or general surgery, you’re going to need about three doctors on call every night.

They don’t have the resources to be getting different people in. What they should do is what they do in nursing, where they have some people working nights and not having to do the whole thing for a couple of months. Just do your week of nights, then just go back to your normal 9-5 job. It’s not usually 9-5 though. My normal job is probably around 8-7.

It’d be all the big Dublin hospitals who ignore the EU Directive’s instructions – I know doctors working in all of those. And it’s the same in some regional hospitals. People there have echoed my concerns.

‘Rite of passage’

A lot of the consultants tend to ignore the problem. They say that ‘it was like that for us in our day – we all had to do it’. Working excessive hours is kind of like a rite of passage, which isn’t really the way to look at it all – as a stagnant practice. There’s definitely room for change.

I think we’re certainly being exploited – and that’s the reason that so many young Irish doctors are leaving. Actually, about 50 per cent of my class that graduated in 2011 have left the country. They’ve gone off to Australia and New Zealand. A lot of them went off travelling the world and things like that, just because the system had drained them. Of all the lads that I lived with, none of them are currently working as a junior doctor in Ireland, they’ve all opted to do something else.

It’s because of the working hours and the working conditions. A lot of the time, we’re not getting paid a fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work.

A lot of consultants say if you press the issue too much, you’ll look bad. It’s the sort of situation where they say ‘we had to do it, now it’s your turn’. They say ‘this is what being a doctor is all about. You have to deal with the pressure of these late nights.’

I do think it’s very taxing on your health. I’ve been off work sick the past couple of days. It was after one of these 33-34 hour shifts.  And I’d have to work maybe 70 hours a week on average.

A lot of the people who end up doing medicine tend to be quite placid people, and are easily exploited. A lot of the reason why we don’t complain too much is that there’s no real alternative. When I was supposed to go home at 5 o’clock today, I couldn’t have decided to go home, because there’s a load of patients that haven’t been seen yet, or there’s a load of things that have to be sorted out for tomorrow. People might get acutely unwell, so you kind of have to be around for that.

Your own morals keep you in as well. There’s no clocking out at 5 o’clock and forgetting about everything.

The Irish Medical Organisation

I’m not a member, as it’s too expensive to join, but I have friends who are members of the Irish Medical Organisation and they don’t seem to be doing very much. I know there’s been efforts asking to make sure they pay for overtime or there’ll be legal cases brought against them, and I think, for the most part, the hospitals are paying the overtime, but there’s a bit of a fight for a lot of it. We have to give excuses for overtime, but a lot of the doctors just don’t bother. Some of them are lazy about it. Some of them just don’t have the time. They end up not getting their overtime, and a lot of them don’t complain about it either, which is mad.

The head of the IMO and his multi-million euro pension is another issue. It’s kind of hard to trust an organisation when the CEO is walking away at about 53 with this payoff – that could certainly have paid us a lot of our overtime.

It seems like the only alternative at the moment is emigration. That’s the path a lot of people are following, including a good lot of my friends. And I would be tempted by it. It’s not all about the money, but it is a factor. The money we’re making at the moment is literally just enough to pay rent and pay back my loans from college, and just general living expenses. And when you’re working those hours, it’s pretty unsatisfying.

It’s not all bad. There’s a lot of good teams working in the hospital, and you find that the junior doctors are all in the same boat. There’s a camaraderie, and everyone’s kind of pissed off together.

On a morbid note though, there were two suicides of junior doctors in the past year. The girl was a friend of one of the lads I’m working with. It does highlight the strain. Obviously, there’d also be a lot going on in someone’s personal life for that to happen, but it doesn’t help when they’re exhausted from their work.

The person who wrote this column did so under the condition of anonymity. He is a junior doctor working at a major Dublin hospital.

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Comments (90 Comments)

  • We wouldn’t let someone operate machinery or drive a bus for these sort of hours but we’ll put our lives in their hands. This is disgraceful. This doctor had said he’s only had minor mistakes so far but I would imagine that people are being killed weekly by over tired doctors. This state of affairs is not ok and should not continue to be ignored. If the public want a quality service when they visit hospital they must stand behind these doctors and support them.

    Reply
    • Niamh you are completely right. We are all making mistakes all the time, stupid mistakes we would never make if we weren’t so completely exhausted. I genuinely worry for patients. Some of those lovely lovely people, who put their trust in us, are going to become more ill, or even die, because we just can’t function while we’re so exhausted. We need public support to drive change. We can’t do this on our own. The HSE, IMO and government have been incredibly clear that they don’t care. People need to stand up and demand an acceptable health care service for themselves, not just for us.

      Reply
    • I’ve just set up this petition as I found that no other one exists. I don’t know how effective such activism is, but I believe it’s worth a try at least as it’s a sorry and potentially very dangerous state of affairs.

      Reply
  • James Reiley says this morn , do your job and be grateful or go work in a chipper , how about that for an effort ? That will fix health service in a jiffy , Won’t it??

    Reply
    • What an absolute p***k! Grand for him to say when he gets a high wage and benefits! Tell him to go and work in a chipper for minimum wage and he wouldn’t be long in changing his mind!

      Reply
    • People always need chips.

      Reply
    • The people responsible for our health service should be forced to use the public system.
      I imagine the service would improve if they could not access private healthcare.

      Reply
    • Excellent idea, we should all be treated the same when it comes to health!

      Reply
    • What do you expect from the incompetence and stupidity of the IMO.

      They only got off there backsides in 2000 to end the prior non-payment of work when threatened with another union formation.

      During the boom, all they did was try to flog financial products to NCHDs, rather than trying to bring the working conditions out of the 18th century.

      How can any body trust the IMO now that they can’t even negotiate their own affairs without handing ALL their money away.

      The are a disgrace, and the time has come to put nail in their incompetent, self serving, chain wearing, white paper publishing pile of sh*te!!

      Reply
    • Reilly did eat all the chunky chips

      Reply
    • This always follows the same course

      1. NCHDs get treated like crap.
      2. IMO does nothing.
      3. NCHDs get treated worse, and decide enough is enough.
      4. IMO still are clueless.
      5. NCHDs set up their own Facebook page etc.
      6. Thousands join and a real sense of solidarity and change occurs.
      7. The IMO hijacks the momentum, and says join up, subscribe, we will ballot for strike…and “stay off Facebook everybody”, “you are the union guys” etc.
      8. NCHD sheep put their fate in IMO.
      9. 97% ballot for strike.
      10. IMO don’t issue strike notice and capitulate.
      11. A generation emigrates..

      See for 1997, 2000, 2008, 2013.

      Reply
  • It’s a disgrace and I’m sorry for all of you. That shouldn’t be happening in 21st Century at all.

    Reply
  • Its a disgrace, having to attend hospital a good few times myself i have seen what hours these doctors work. One sat on the side of my bed while his boss talked to ma & the poor fella nearly fell into the bed beside me, he was so exhausted.. Keep up the good work!!

    Reply
  • Firstly the term junior doctor is in some ways a little derogatory as it implies they’re less competent. The official term in Ireland is NCHD which is Non-Consultant Hospital Doctor. In most other countries they are referred to as Residents (which will be more familiar to people who watch US hospital dramas).
    This grade encompasses every doctor in Irish hospitals who are not consultants. The grading system goes from Internship, through House Officers up to Registrars and Specialist Registrars. Most Irish doctors will spend about 10 – 15 years being referred to as “junior doctors”. That’s after 5-6 years of university training. During that 10-15 years they will work in excess of 70 hours every week and frequently in excess of 30hrs in one shift without sleep. In most of the major Dublin teaching hospitals, those on the surgical side of things can work anything up to 60+ hours in single shifts when they are scheduled over weekends – that is they start at 7am on Fri or Sat morning and leave at 7 or 8pm on Monday evening. They may get an hour or two sleep each night if lucky and will be expected to operate at any time. Sound scary? Well it is.
    This is a very real problem. And not only for the public. It has profound effects on the mental health and family lives of these people.

    Reply
    • Personally I think the title of Non-Consultant Hospital Doctor is as equally derogatory as the term junior doctor. Being given a title based on what you are not (in this case a consultant) has an arrogant undertone in my opinion.

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  • I do not understand why people resent our doctors at all. Medicine is an incredibly demanding discipline; you have to start working super hard in secondary school to even qualify for the training, your life is essentially dedicated to pursuit of full qualification for about 12 years, then you are subject to the vagaries of a mis-managed socialised medical system.
    In my work, I send people to the GP every day, on our medical card; often to after hours service because they can’t be bothered to make an appointment in the day time. Instead of appreciating the work the docs have put in that makes their diagnoses valid, they resent them for not being more available.
    We judge people here who don’t feel obliged to help others, then we punish those who do by 1) allowing them to be abused by the system, 2) counting on their dedication to keep them working in untenable conditions and 3) Begrudging them decent wages for service (and, as pointed out, these are wages they often don’t even get.). We penalise people for being hard-working and reward people for never working. We count on people’s honor code, then treat them dishonorably. Our politicians tell us (and sometimes, we tell ourselves) ‘you are lucky to have a job, shut up’… Go on strike, all of you, and let the leeches figure out who is lucky to have whom.

    Reply
  • I know i really shouldn’t say this but i couldn’t blame any of them fir leaving the country for proper working conditions and pay

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    • It’s a sad state of affairs when a doctor can’t afford to join a union. A union that let its chief executive retire at 52 with 5 or 6 lotto jackpots as a pension. The whole country is a complete mess that can never be fixed as long as the general public sit on their backsides and tolerate this mass pillage by the so called elite.

      Reply
    • If the consensus is “it’s a rite of passage” the union is hardly going to rush in to help. In fact unions seem very poor at protecting their younger more vulnerable members in general (INMO excepted). Perhaps a shake up in the unions is needed also!

      Reply
    • The INMO are not protecting their younger members at all they are as bad as the IMO.

      Reply
  • This article as well as Dr Anthony O’Connors superbly written recent article from the Medical Independent bring this issue yet again back into sharp focus. The resolve and emotional well being of NCH Doctors has never been more challenged as it is now. The recent suicides of two colleagues is a gut wrenching symptom of the malaise and disillusionment attributable to working conditions within the Irish health system.

    I am sure there are many reasons why we embarked on this career but ultimately we have all chosen to care for patients and try and deliver the best kind of care that they all deserve. Doctors and especially nursing staff do stand at the coal face and represent the face of the health system and will in some cases, bare the brunt of it’s criticism by the public. I think a lot of Doctors who want to make money would probably not bother being Doctors (myself included). There will be some who will struggle with this assertion. Family’s of NCHDs will better understand the plight but a correct perception in the part of the public at large is central to a better understanding of this issue.

    As clinicians, there is the obvious responsibility of self care etc…Any Doctor with a semblance of conscience dreads the time when a mistake is made that puts a patient in harm’s way or far worse. It is always been my greatest fear, making a mistake especially whilst fatigued that deprives a family of a loved one and worse still trying to rationalize it with the knowledge that it occurred 34 hours into a shift. Cold comfort for those left behind. Current conditions have created the perfect storm for such tragedies to occur, both for patients and Doctors.

    Work structures such as the European Working TIme Directive serve to protect the system and clearly not the Doctor. Only certain roster structures allow the EWTD to work for Doctors and strong consideration needs to be given to further implementation. I’m not clear as the barriers which prevent this from occurring.

    I left Ireland 9 years ago this year to where I am now typing from. Since then, so many more are now also voting with their feet and it is now becoming a tidal wave. Personally, this decision was never taken lightly and I long struggled with it. Was it a sign of weakness or not being able to cope with working in the Irish health system? No, it was all about maintaining personal well being and doing the job many of us have spent many years training to do and simultaneously enjoying it.

    Reading this article and the comments before, it seems little has changed as the HSE remain apathetic and the medical unions impotent. I fear for what will continue to happen in the interim. To quote from Dr O’Connors article. – “business as usual”.

    Reply
    • Well said Richard. Sadly, in the absence of an effective union, more and more of us will be voting with our feet and heading to countries where working conditions are better and there’s a chance of a having a life.

      Reply
  • Its appalling to read a story like this, just another indication of how bad our Health Service has stooped. I find it very hard to believe that with junior doctors being forced to work hours we wouldn’t allow anyone else to work serious mistakes are not being made on a regular basis, that would mean they get covered up.
    Just imagine if Minister Rielly’s son was a junior doctor, would he have to work the same long hours as everyone else?

    Reply
  • This was one of my time sheets from October 2012. It was as a surgical SHO in a major Dublin Hospital. Over a 6 month period I worked 2 of these weeks. Overall it was 75-80 hours (approx) per week for 6 months.

    Monday 07:30 – Tuesday 19:00
    Wednesday 07:30 – Thursday 19:00
    Friday 07:30- 18:00
    Saturday 09:00 – Monday 19:00.

    From 9am the first Monday to 9am the following Monday that’s 128 hours.

    Being honest the actual job is not that intense nor busy, the killer is just the sheer amount of time spent at work. It leaves you completely drained and depressed. I got about 3-4 hours sleep per night. In a residents room where an earwig kept me company (I have a video to prove this). The dietary options provided at night were toast, cornflakes, ginger nut biscuits and cream crackers.

    Add to this that there was no formal training, underpayment of hours every week and no career prospects (10-15 years of working this garbage to get to consultancy).

    This is why so many of my colleagues have emigrated. This is one of the reasons why I’ll soon be doing the same.

    Reply
  • Huge respect to our doctors and nurses. Don’t know how they still do it but thank god they still turn up for work despite the way they’re being treated

    Reply
  • Orly 21/01/13 #

    This guy sounds like he’s a really kind, caring person who is absolutely and utterly exploited by an abysmal system.

    Reply
  • @alien8 who asked how long we work as junior doctors.
    1 year as an intern
    2 years as an SHO
    Then 5-7 years as a Registrar/Specialist Registrar
    All the while doing research, exams, writing papers and getting a masters or (more commonly now) a PhD
    Then hope and pray for a consultant post.

    Reply
  • It seems that the EWTD is there to protect the system rather than the healthcare worker. The system refuses to pay O/T as just paying the O/T is liability in itself. The doctor/HCW is then exposed to horrendous working conditions and patients are subsequently exposed to worse. I understand that cash flow is tight with regard to HSE allocation if funds for continuity of service but stripping their core asset down to bare bones is not the way forward. I graduated in science in 2009 and it was my dream to pursue medicine via the graduate entry stream. However, after much deliberation due to unreasonable cost of the course and poor professional future that lay ahead within the industry I emigrated, now earning a 6 figure sum in Australia as chemist. I really feel for those who followed their dream to become the doctors of the future but who are ultimately facing a bleak career in medicine within the HSE. Also, the mental burden of repaying med school loans in excess of €100k while working copious hours with little or no reward must be devastatingly disheartening. Ultimately the biggest loss is suffered by the public. From a public perspective I hope things improve for that young doctor who’s story is moving. Personally, I think he/she should consider a career in the sun…but that’s at a loss the Irish people. Sad situation. When will this vicious circle snap?

    Reply
  • 36 hours is the norm. 62 hour shifts is a record. A record set on a weekly basis by surgical SHOs.

    Reply
  • God love all the doctors and nurses who struggle each day and earn a pittance for a job that deserves all the respect we can give. I hope things improve soon.

    Reply
    • They don’t earn a “pittance”. They work hard and they get payed well.

      Reply
    • John 21/01/13 #

      Oh jack. We do get paid a pittance. We get paid by the hour. The problem is the majority of our overtime is not paid – we are working a huge number of hours for free. Also when we do get paid overtime we get pushed into a higher tax bracket.
      FYI you can log onto the HSE website where you can see our salaries. There you find that a first year SHO is on €38,000 a year.
      SHO’s can’t progress without exams. These exams have to be paid for out of our own pocket as they have abolished our education allowance. The exams cost about €600 each, the majority don’t pass them first time as the failure rate is 2/3.

      Reply
    • Jack, the intern you see wandering bleary eyed round your nearest hospital is on roughly €14.90 an hour.

      For the work involved that is, for certain sure, a pittance.

      Reply
  • How typical of this country, to abuse the kind of people that have a conscience and reward the ones who give no damns at all.

    Reply
  • Yes junior doctors work ridiculously long hours, suicide is one issue, mistakes at work another, having car accidents while driving home another. I know of several who have and one who died.
    No one will stand up and complain as it’s difficult enough to get a consultancy post in Ireland, most doctors will have to emigrate, so the last thing you’re going to do as a junior doctor is cause a fuss and complain. You don’t want to be remembered as the one trouble maker who wasn’t up to the task.
    The IMO are ineffective.
    Junior doctors are constantly doing menial tasks that don’t need 8 years of training to do and could easily be done by other staff, eg IV’s, portering etc. 90% of what they do is administration and dogs body work that is not of any use in training. But again weak union and juniors afraid of bad rep so put up and shut up.

    The pay is poor. It is not comparable to any other job that required such a level of training and dedication from such a young age. A 35% pay cut is obviously going to drive the best away. There is no job security. We live year to year not knowing what part of the country we will be upended and sent to the next year- having to move home family etc. Can’t get morgage as no job security or permanent contract until you get the elusive consultancy at around 40 years, if ever. Most have to emigrate. It is an awful life for those who have dedicated themselves tirelessly.
    Begrudgers can say, you’re paid too much or you have job security but they obviously don’t know the facts.
    Interesting that Dr Reillys junior dr son has emigrated.

    Reply
  • Dgar 21/01/13 #

    Its shocking & very worrying. However, there should be no such thing as overtime pay required…just bring in more young doctors at normal pay (who will be less at risk to make mistakes with human lives) !

    Reply
  • From reading this article I am reminded of my own profession. Currently working as a civil engineer and it is the norm for to work 70hrs a week. And if you even try to put down over time – goodluck! You could possibly see your P45 the next day.

    A part of the article highlighting for me is ‘the rite of passage’. I hear this eveytime I bring up the issue at work. This sort of culture in the work environment needs to change across all fields of disipline.

    Making a doctor work 100hrs is just ridulous. Not only would such hours affect the doctor’s mental health but could possibly effect the doctor’s decision making.

    Fair play to the doctor writing in and highlighting this.

    Reply
  • Richard 21/01/13 #

    It is atrocious that anyone should have to work such hours, and moreover it is dangerous for patients. Users of hospitals -that is, everyone- ought to be concerned at the authoritarian attitude of consultants described here. If you have a body of medical professionals who are not inclined to stand up for decent working conditions for their own colleagues, why would you expect them to stand up for the rights of patients to a decent public health service, especially when fat rewards are often available from the treatment of private patients?

    Reply
  • NCHDs please join Facebook group “Enough is enough Irish NCHDs oppose current working conditions in HSE” it was set up by one of an NCHD colleague over the weekend

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  • Good to see some recognition of the conditions and stresses facing Irish NCHDs, rather than the usual headlines of “they’re overpaid!” (when in reality, many of course are not paid for most of the hours worked).

    Two recent suicides bring the problem into stark relief.

    It’ll be interesting to see if anything comes of this, although I doubt it. People care more about the burned dinners in Irish hospitals than about the burned out doctors in Irish hospitals…

    Reply
  • As someone who works as a care attendent in a Dublin hospital I see a lot of this and it’s totally disgraceful. It’s embarrassing working for an organisation whereby the most valued workers (for which I include nurses, as well as doctors) are shabbily regarded and paid even worse. I had a lot of admiration for people in both careers, like many do is that we almost seem to satisfy ourselves that ‘at least we respect them and care’, whilst failing to do anything.

    This needs to stop. Many parts of the HSE represent something close to a financial black hole; on a daily basis several patients are escorted to other hospitals for tests/ scan/ procedures that are not available in the hospital they are staying in. To transport this often means hiring a tax and a €50+ journey each way for a sojourn lasting less than half an hour. This doesn’t make sense: if you order a takeaway that company will usually have a driver that works for an hourly wage of anything between minimum wage to €10 an hour. The cost of the mass-produced meals can come up to €17 per meal depending on the hospital. And while I benefit from it, I think the double pay on Sundays is madness. These are only a few brief examples of the wastage that every hospital is guilty of.

    If the government can only understand money and increased costs, they should keep in mind that it is reckoned to cost around €125,000 to educate someone to become a doctor in this country, minus whatever fees are paid. They, by which I mean we the taxpayers, are investing a lot only to see these people forced to go abroad due to untenable working conditions. Hopefully this article can be the start of some real change.

    Reply
  • This account stands out as a glaring example of the level of risk the minister is prepared to impose on the patients and staff in our hospitals today. It is the responsibility of the minister to do all in his power to reduce the risk of death or injury to patients and staff in our hospitals. By supporting and encouraging the climate of the junior doctor slave regime he is not only breaking the law,he is putting his department in a position whereby they could well be responsible for the death of a patient by neglect.With the greatest respect to all Junior doctors and indeed nurses,They should have to clock in and out of their shifts.The records should be reviewed by a body independent of hospital admin and the results if deemed to be of a standard whereby regulations are broken on a regular basis should be reported to the gardai.It may seem drastic to do so, however,I would compare a doctor or nurse who is into the 20th hour of a shift having already worked 50/60 hours of that week to be as dangerous as drink driver.This climate of the junior doctor slave regime is hardly news. It is however another glaring example of the minister ignoring a very serious and dangerous situation in the hope that it will solve itself and hopefully nobody will die while he awaits the resolution to materialise from the ether. Junior doctors should take note that in the event of a serious situation resulting in the death of a patient, You can rest assured that your minister and his merry band of consultants will hang you out to dry and ensure that your ambition to be a doctor will be swiftly ended .Every hour over the recommended overtime ceiling is a nail in your own career coffin.

    Reply
  • Not only are you suppose to only work 48 hours in a 4 month average but your suppose to have 11 hours gap between finishing one shift and starting another.

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  • Liam 21/01/13 #

    It is such a crap situation that this doctor and so many others find themselves in, he said that he has made only minor mistakes, but sooner or later, someone will make a serious mistake and it will be because they were not prepared for the job, far too many hours working can have that effect on anyone.

    This government really should look at this issue more seriously (if they are even paying any attention to it at all), hopefully the Seanad will be abolished this year, which the money that is wasted on it can go to much more needed areas such as hospitals, if the government continues to let this problem go unchecked, it is just another example that proves they are not fit to govern.

    Reply
  • If our junior doctors were more like public sector workers and simply refused to work beyond thirty plus hours and disappeared from the office with robotic precision at clocking off time, it would force the HSE to do something about this.

    As nice as it is that they are dedicated to their jobs, working illegal excess hours is not good for sorting out this mess. Where is the IMO union in all of this? Oh yeah, just finishing off writing a cheque for 10 million euro to their outgoing chief. GREAT union.

    Reply
    • How long does a junior doctor stay a junior doctor? Is this a short term thing, or are you expected to work full weeks until you are 65? Secondly, why do you not get sleep? There would be zero time for social activities, but loads of time for sleep after 80 hours/week – is this the sacrifice you have to make to become a high paid doctor later in your career? Do the consultants have it right that this is a rite to change your work ethic, and not slave labour as the piece seems to be saying?

      just curious.

      Reply
    • Doctors/ nurses won’t do this as ultimately it’s their patients that will suffer..not the government. Tough call for healthcare workers when it comes to taking a stand against poor pay/ conditions. It goes against every moral that persuaded them to become involved in healthcare in the first place.

      Reply
    • Alien8

      How long does a junior doctor stay a junior doctor?
      15years average here in Ireland. 8years average in most other countries, with a shorter working week.

      Is this a short term thing, or are you expected to work full weeks until you are 65?
      Pretty much, yes. As an SPR/registrar/consultant you can do off-site call, but you can be called in at any given time when you are on call. It is not a short term thing, it has been going on since the dawn of time.

      Secondly, why do you not get sleep?
      There are not enough doctors during the day, why do you presume there are enough at night, when there is only a call team, whose work is usually catching up with routine day work?

      There would be zero time for social activities, but loads of time for sleep after 80 hours/week – is this the sacrifice you have to make to become a high paid doctor later in your career?
      There is no other job that requires you to make such an investment in your career, many of which pay a lot higher than a doctor will ever be paid, why should a doctor he treated as such?

      Do the consultants have it right that this is a rite to change your work ethic, and not slave labour as the piece seems to be saying?
      This is slave labour. No other career path requires such an investment, even doctors in other countries don’t make such an investment.

      just curious.

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    • Alien8 the term ‘junior doctor’ refers to any hospital doctor who is not a consultant. So you could be working all your life as a non-consultant hospital doctor and still be called a ‘junior doctor’ by the press.

      Interestingly, when we read reports about sky-high ‘junior doctor’ salaries, it is these ones who are at the upper end of thenoay increments that they alwayd refer to, instead of the majority.

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    • Alien 8, it isn’t short term, but in my view that’s irrelevant , junior doctors hours are inhuman,
      There are managers in our hospitals, that don’t seem to be managing frontline care staff fairly, their excuse is that the line managers make them decisions, ie consultants.
      Unions get a bad press generally, and at present they don’t do their jobs, but they are part of the solution

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  • sakipol 21/01/13 #

    Reilly needs to wake up. But no-one will pay any heed until the majority of doctors have emigrated.

    They won’t be able to lure many back with the current pay arrangements for new consultants either. Enslaved and shafted. And the IMO are worse than useless.

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  • nurses don’t do 9-5! they do 12 hours shifts. Scary though. I spent a lot of time in hospital in the last year and quite often the person who admitted you in the morning could come fix a drip at 3am and then be on morning rounds. Usually SHOs and registrars though. Always wondered why the nurses weren’t allowed change a canula although some did and they usually butchered you less than the bleary eyed doctors. Also saw nurses having to show clearly tired doctors how to prepare drugs for iv and intervene where mistakes were being made. Worse thing for me was you’d never see the same doctors on rounds on consecutive days so there was you’d never get consistent treatment so the idea of a normal working week of days or nights would improve things here too.

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    • st year never seen same doctor each day over worked nurses and junior doctors and the consultants swan into wards on occasion and talk at you not to you [if you let him] dr oreilly is a bad health minister and needs to step down NOW

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    • Part of the problem is the fact that many NCHDs spend their days and nights doing jobs that others can’t or won’t do. For example, IV cannulas (putting in a drip). In most other countries this is within the role of the nurses/other paramedical staff. Many hospitals around the world have IV teams employed to do just this. Not so in Ireland. As an intern I would routinely spend half my night wandering all over the hospital putting in drips on patients that have been waiting hours for me to get my overtired ass to their bedside.

      Same thing happens with other tasks. If you get chest pain in the middle of the night, you’ll almost never have an ECG (tracing of your heart, a simple but necessary test) done by the time the doctor gets there. Manys a night I spent looking for the cursed ECG machine (could be on a different floor, and “you’ll have to go up and get it, doctor” ) only to find it’s out of paper (“it’s not my job to put paper in that thing, doctor”) and spend twenty minutes looking for paper for the thing.

      The myriad of other simple tasks that interns and SHOs undertake because no one else will would make your jaw drop. Every day doctors are carting patients round the hospital (the porters are all on a break), spending upwards of twenty minutes on the phone to another hospital looking for an MRI report to be faxed over (the radiology secretary: “that’s not my job”), mixing up antibiotics (a job which we never receive a minute of training for), and so on.

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    • I’m not pointing the finger at any one group, just saying that the stupid inefficient nonsense that goes on in most hospitals in Ireland contributes to the long sleep deprived conditions of most NCHDs.

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    • Completely agree! It was the iv thing i needed.them most for as my cannulas only lasted 8-12 hours before tissuing. Also mixing an iv antibiotic should have been done by the nurse because she gave the SHO step by step instructions on how to do it after waiting an hour for doctor to come!

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    • Sandra , docs give first dose antibiotics only, nurses do it thereafter, fair point about cannulations but remember your not the only one whose busy, also sometimes drips can be given sub-cut if the cannula dislodges, if you chart it sub-cut/ iv.
      Basic nurse training should include ECG monitoring but as yet it doesn’t ,

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    • I was meant to be getting 4 litres of hartmans a day but never once got the 4 over 24 hours because of waiting for doctors to put in a cannula. The antibiotic the nurse could have done but had to wait for doctor who ended up having to make it twice because the first time it burst in her face when she was adding some to the saline. This held up everything as I was waiting in the labour ward to be induced but couldnt until antibiotics were administered!

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    • Doctors are responsible for their own plight,nobody else.If you don’t stand for your rights,nobody will.they need to grow some spine and refuse to work illegal hours or take HSE to court.Everybody is scared of the boogeyman here(consultants).

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  • Management dont care about staff, and have no direct responsibility for patient care
    Nurses is some major hospitals have no showers available, truly ,
    Junior doctors shouldn’t have to explain or complain if management were doing their jobs,
    Only frontline put up with these conditions

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  • All unions in this country need to be destroyed. They are just as corrupt as the government. A new union with the morals and reasons of why they were set up in the first place needs to emerge. Unions need to get back to square 1. How anyone pays union fees to these shower of shites i’ll never know. All your union fees go into their fat pensions.

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  • Not only are you suppose to work 48 hours a week over a 4 month average but there is also meant to be an 11 hour gap between the end of one shift and the start of another.

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  • My mother was in hospital over Christmas and New Year and received excellent care from kind and patient medical staff (who had to bring their own food in on Christmas Day because they had no canteen facilities available). But those staff are let down by incredible inefficiencies similar to those described by the columnist. My mother’s 10 day stay for observation and tests could have been much shorter at any other time of year – but because they can’t pay the overtime to open labs and clinics on weekends and public holidays, they incurred the cost of additional bednights, food, etc (for my mother and many others) and also ran the risk of my mother contracting the vomiting bug that has been rampant. All the savings they make over the short term can have much bigger costs over the long term.

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  • CKK 21/01/13 #

    After reading the article and comments i am horrified by the conditions/hrs and circumstances perceived to be normal and necessary for these Doctors.

    I Have been very seriously considering applying to a GEMS and it has been an aspiration for quite some time but as mum to a small baby what I have been reading, it has really disheartened & discouraged me and really making me reconsider.

    Unfortunately for all those Medical professionals working within the current HSE system, any change/improvement does not seem to be on the agenda.
    I know

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    • I am one of the afore mentioned junior doctors and have been for the last 6 years- luckily I am on my specialist training scheme and do have job security for at least the next three years- although it will mean moving about every year. I am an obstetrician so for all u who don’t know what that is- I deliver your babies when things go wrong in labour…. I work in the only spec in Ireland where there is potentially a 200% mortality- I regularly work 30 hours in a row but otherwise again I’m lucky as my average is only about 60 per week. I’ve had one bout of depression which was undoubtedly due to the fact that all I do is work sleep work sleep- my family don’t know about cos hey doctors are suppossed to be strong! I know for a fact that if I am doing antenatal clinic when I’m well over my 24 hour shift my standard of care slips- it’s only human but I do find myself repeating stuff over and over to my patients and sometimes not even understanding what I’m saying myself… I have cried in between seeing patients, I have given out to patients for not seeing there gp when I’m post call! It is also v v easy to mess up important labour ward decisions which could end up with a baby with cerebral palsy or dead- the only baby I have delivered yet with cp happened when I was on my 20th hour and I’m sure my decision making was up to scratch! And after tax I’m on about -15 quid an hour! Makes me mad I tell u- I wouldn’t send my pet cat to a doctor who has been up that long!

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  • Same old story…a few suicides pop up and suddenly there is a “crisis” for Joe Duffy and Miriam O’Callaghan to rehash. The public will forget soon enough. The public don’t care if doctors work long hours as long as they can get the care they need when they are sick. It is time that we naive doctors stop trying to appeal pathetically to the goodwill of the public and the government. The choices are to bring a court case against the government for failure to implement the EWTD, strike, emigrate or shut up, as I see it.
    The IMO is no more than a wing of the HSE designed to prevent strike action by NCHDs and it must be dissolved.
    I see interesting parallels with the gun massacres in the U.S. How many NCHD suicides would it take to get Ireland to take the problem of NCHDs hours seriously and implement European law on this matter? I would say maybe 15-20 per year and sad to say, about double that if the NCHDs are non-national.

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    • The big problem in this country is that nurses relegating themselves to be one of care assistants.I work in NHS and nurses does the first,2nd and 3rd doses antibiotics,put in i/v lines,catheters,perform ECGs and most follow the results as well.Irish Health system is a disgrace and in shambles.God help them.

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  • What kind of cretin is up at 8am in the morning actively disliking comments.

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  • Mike 21/01/13 #

    Maybe if there was greater sharing of the load between all the levels of doctors this would help .For example if consultants were not racing off to their lucrative private practices in the afternoons.

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    • Yeah. How dare those consultants spend any of their time and energy in such a selfish pursuit? You’d think they know they owe us their lives. I mean, in immoral, to study that hard and invest so many years in medicine, then go off and dare to make a profit.

      I am consistently stunned at this attitude. If I’d done all the training and investment of time and money it takes to be a medical doctor, you’re damn right I’d make some money at it when I could.
      They don’t owe us. Ffs.

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    • Exactly Mary they work damn hard both at exams and on the ground too (I work in a hospital), and the responsibility is enormous. I for one don’t begrudge them their salaries, they earn every penny. Having said all of that, in these recessionary times, employers across the board are totally taking the piss on this one, it’s happening everywhere

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  • My sister is a fabulous doctor (sho) but she’s working in Australia now with little prospects to bring her back to the shabby conditions of hospitals in Ireland.. how did we lose our best-trained and most educated!

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  • Nice to see that Mr. O’Reilly has such respect for the working class people in this country. He should have more repect for all workers from those who work in the chippers to all hospital staff, Remember they are all tax payers and also part of the electorate.

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  • I was misdiagnosed a few years ago by a dr, he gave me tablets that left me 10 times sicker than I already was and diagnosed me for having something different. He was foreign and I couldn’t understand a word he was saying to me. It was a horrible experience I’d honestly rather be on deaths bed than have to go to a hospital in this country, just too many bad experiences. By the way James Reilly, your worse than Harvey ever was and that’s saying something. Enjoy you’re little role of power while u have it, because your not going anywhere after this stint!!! I hope your fat pension brings you nothing but bad luck!

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  • At least they have a large salary and job security to look forward to at the end of it. I would gladly sacrifice a few years to know that long term I could provide or my family. It is a small price to pay.

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    • They don’t have job security. My partner will be qualifying from his SpR training scheme this year, and we don’t know if there will be a constancy post for him (unlikely), where it will be, or the pay that will go with it (given that new entry consultants now take a 35% pay cut).
      It is not a small price to pay. I’m a nurse, this week I’ll work 60hrs. My partner is on call twice, as well as the day job, which equates to 80-90hrs. If you presume that we are human and require sleep every now and again, day to day things have to be done like food shops, pay bills, etc, etc, etc, you’ll find the price is anything but small.

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    • i agree with shaun the sheep

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    • Job security? Most NCHDs are on short-term contracts of 6 – 12 months duration. We work hard, pay for our own training (courses, higher degrees etc) and at the end of it all there are no new consultant posts.
      The price we pay is too high and more and more of us are voting with our feet.

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  • Wish i could earn overtime in my job, sounds like they can work as much as they want. He also mentions he was off sick for a few days, that’d be nice, sounds like a nice way to work

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    • Guess you missed the part where they mostly never get their overtime.

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    • It’s not optional overtime, it’s forced. And if it was you in hospital you presumably wouldn’t like if your doctor rocked out the door at five o’clock?

      The bonus is that most hospitals aren’t paying overtime, despite you working those eighty-hours-plus-weeks: you’ll only get paid for less than forty of those hours. This lovely fact means that most bleary-eyed doctors looking after your loved ones are on much less than the minimum wage.

      And people are wondering why most interns are emigrating…

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