The more I think about the idea, the worse it gets. It’s a long drawn out sentence to physical and mental torture .

The worst thing in these circumstances, is the mental anguish caused to the woman, who knows the baby she is carrying is dead.
It is heartless to force these women to full term.
This hospice idea is ridiculous. Yes, lock them away Ronan. Out of sight and out of mind, eh?

The babies in this instance are not actually dead when they are in the womb. There is no legal impediment to removing a dead baby from the womb.

Almar, these women who are carrying dead babies, and yes they are dead, are given drugs to cause the womb to contract so they end up having to go through labour and give birth to a dead child.

Your just carrying a baby for the funeral basically

Wrong end of the stick Ciara. He’s referring to live babies who cannot survive OUTSIDE the womb. If the baby has died in utero then we induce labour when she is nearing term. That goes on all the time in the maternity hospitals.

And if it dies at 4 or 5 months, we just leave it there till she eventually goes into labour or we induce her so she has to go through labour or we give her a general and remove it from her body?
What about the women with uterine cancer who is pregnant and needs chemo urgently? We’ll just let her travel and that women who was on the late late, its ok to send her off as well?
Sure if its not happening in Ireland everything must be grand! Ireland is the safest place to give birth? thats because all the difficult issues are being dealt with abroad and we are shunning these women!

Ciara – Are you seriously suggesting that if a baby dies in utero that the woman must carry it to term? If this is what you believe happens here you are very badly misinformed. In these cases the dead baby is removed in whatever way is medically appropriate.

As for cancer, there is no restriction whatsoever in receiving chemotherapy during pregnancy in Ireland. And specifically in the case of uterine cancer there is also no difficulty with surgery in this country to remove the womb, even if the woman is pregnant.

Al Mar, I work in maternity services! Most women have to carry it until they go into labour whether induced or naturally! Please dont comment on something you know nothing about! Seriously! Its disrespectful to women who have gone through it.

Al Mar, most women would like to have chemo and keep her womb so maybe she can have a child further down the line. The catholic ethos always was if a pregnant women has cancer, just whip her womb out because then its not technically abortion!

Ciara: If the fetus dies in the womb, it can be removed in Ireland – I had it done in Holles St at 3 months. The argument here is where the fetus is alive, but the baby won’t survive long after birth.

AlMar: Shocking, but Georgia state rep Terry England in the USA has suggested that that should be the case: http://jezebel.com/5892657/lawmaker-says-pregnant-ladies-are-a-lot-like-livestock

Molly, with respect, at 3 months it is not a foetus. Its an early miscarriage. Its much different to physically having a bump and people asking you when are you due.

Ciara: If women have to carry a dead baby to term, that is a medical decision made by the doctor. It’s not a legal requirement and the legalisation of abortion would not affect this.

As has been pointed out by others, dead babies are removed from the womb in Ireland.

As for chemotherapy, there is no legal prohibition on chemotherapy in pregnancy.

Al Mar! Do you work in maternity services? Do you deal with miscarriages, stillborns, gynae cancers everyday? No? Well then stop pretending you know anything about them.
Early pregnancy loss is either passed spontaneously as a POC but if it isnt its an EPOC and is removed via a D&C. Later pregnancy loss where a foetus is identifiable, is either induced so the woman has to go through labour or she has to let nature take its course and still has to go through labour.
I could give you more graphic details but I wont out of respect for women who have been through it.

Stop using religion for your argument by the way. Religion has no place in a womans womb.

Ciara, I’ve replied to you here & at http://www.thejournal.ie/ronan-mullen-horrified-at-nasty-suggestions-over-abortion-debate-424919-Apr2012/#comment-363578 , but they’ve gone down to the bottom of the page.

Ciara: You’re great at presuming a lot about about people you know nothing about!

I am very well aware of what happens in is country when the child dies in utero. The laws on abortion have nothing to do with it whatsoever. If a woman has to have labour induced rather than a D&C then that is a medical decision made by the doctor. It has nothing to do with the laws on abortion.

Also, please find even ONE example of where I have introduced religion on this issue as you have alleged. You will search in vain because I haven’t done so.

Has anyone here actually looked at what a Perinatal Hospice is? I think everyone likes to talk about Magdalene Laundries and the like but in fairness to Sen. Mullen, how many people here have a) ever heard that term before and b) even know what they are?
Personally, I don’t believe women take the decision to have an abortion lightly but I do think there could be better options available.
When it comes to looking at solutions other than abortion there is much more that could be done.

Adam,
Regardless of how nice this kind of facility is, nor that they can do lots of nice things, a woman in this situation cannot be simply calmed down by a nice facility.
Unless you have been through a similar situation as these women, you cannot really assume that you might know best.
I have been through this, and believe me, no amount of nice surroundings would have helped.
The decision was taken out of our hands in the end, my wife went into premature labour naturally. Subsequently, we had 2 more premature births, both are fine now. It was Possibly caused by the stress of the previous weeks. But a decision about travelling was a very likely option.
An option of sitting in a hospice for the duration of the pregnancy would have been unbelievably distressful for my wife.
Until you have been in this situation, you cannot understand the stress. That goes for all the commentators above.

It hasn’t been confirmed that it was or wasn’t him so maybe people could maintain some perspective.

I think we’d all appreciate it if we were given the benefit of doubt under such circumstances.

@Winston Yes. We’d especially appreciate the benefit of the doubt if we’d said it, been called on it, and were hoping to get away with it.

Fiachra, you’re absolutely right that there needs to be a wider discussion about how patriarchy disadvantages men. Because behind every discussion of what is a women’s sphere, there’s the idea that men can’t intrude there. Ideas of masculinity can be horribly constricting and I think that’s something the feminist movement is starting to take better account of.

As to father’s rights in abortions, for me, it’s really about the difficulty of legislating it. Obviously, it would be ideal if women discussed the decision with their partners and came to a conclusion together, but I’m not sure of a way of doing it which would prevent abusive partner (for a lot of women, violence escalates during pregnancy), a rapist or an absentee partner from having a say. I am also incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of a man being able to veto the decision of a woman who just cannot bear the idea of going through with a pregancy. I’m just not sure how men can be given an official say in practical terms.

You’re

Christ, do you really have to correct people’s typos when it’s obvious what they mean? You’ll be here for a while Feargal, if that’s your plan.

just so you understand how the mullen mind works http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nar2RfciOeY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

#mullenlaundries :)

Not really sure how you’ve made that link?

For clarification, I’m not saying I agree with the idea of a perinatal hospice. Far from it.
I’m saying that a woman seeking an abortion because her child can’t survive outside the womb is just as likely (if not more so) to be married or in a stable relationship as being a young single mum.

My little sister was born very premature she lived for 6 months and it completely destroyed my mum, seeing what she had to go through, in hindsight I think if we had of lost her at birth it would of been easier, to cope.
If a baby does not have any viability outside the womb there is no choice, if you leave it till due date you have to go through a funeral which are hell for the family, and the added agony of carrying a baby just knowing your not going to share a life with.

@ Ciara u say if someone doesn’t want to be a father then don’t get the woman pregnant! That works both ways I’m afraid and if u don’t want to be a mother then don’t get pregnant! Your idea that a man who’s unborn child it is should have no say in whether or not that child lives or dies is unbelievable to say the least! Your idea of allowing abortion just because having a child is inconvenient is despicable and even more unbelievable! I’m ashamed to think that u are a fellow woman and that u would be so heartless! You are an animal that can’t see beyond your own self importance and I pity any partner that u may have if u think that they would not have a right to be involved in such important decisions! I get the feeling that your opposed to marriage aswell and quite possibly the notion of sharing a life with someone u love because if u understood what it is to love another being and the sacrifices that this involves then somehow I think your self righteous attitude may change!

Im not opposed to marriage but Im not religious so its not for me.
Im making general statements here when it comes to abortion. If you get pregnant and are anti abortion then dont have an abortion.
Starry, the decision to stay pregnant is up to the woman. Are you suggesting that she should be locked up till she gives birth just so the man can have his child?
We know people get pregnant even though they are careful, this doesnt mean that they should have to continue with the pregnancy. Women arent some sort of pod created just to be pregnant, they are entitled to decide what they want too.

Ciara it seems like you are being heartfelt, but maybe you had some distressing experience in the past, I dunno. You cannot speak for all women when you say that the decision to stay pregnant is the woman’s, as I’d say there are many women maybe most, who would discuss it with the father.

Your obstinacy is damaging your credibility.

Im not obstinate, I just believe that it really is a womans choice. A womans body is her own so the decision is hers. I know a few women who have had abortions and as they were the ones pregnant, the decision was theres to make. Some of the fathers werent consulted.

And idiot me got distracted, but it’s kinda the same point just the wrong instance – in either sense he didn’t apologise..
He was horrified at the accusation that he may have caused offence, but still he shifted the blame over to the women he offended, he’s horrified that they thought that about him. He’s claiming to be the offended party.. It’s the same tactic, I just shouldn’t write responses when I’ve been distracted by the rest of the thread!!

You made your point well Shanti, distracted, or not. I was so taken aback by his comments, that I could not easily think of how to respond. His thinking is so retrograde, that it appears unbelievable, and yet it’s true, in the sense that he really thinks this way. The Dalai Lama was talking recently about people who lack compassion. His thoughts were that such people were not nurtured during their childhood, or that they lived In fear during that period. I can’t help wondering, if these factors might not have played a part in leading this person to his soulless stance.

Great comment.

Good comment, however if 5% of people are currently doing ‘it’, that’s a lot of nookie going on for a Saturday afternoon or maybe I’m missing out on something

Well said!!

Awesome! comment of the week!

Thank you for that great comment. I’ve never understood the whole “sex should be for procreation only argument either.” That’s true for the majority of animals whose behaviour is heavily determined by their estrus or other hormonal cycles, but human females are able to experience sexual desire separately from any biological readiness to procreate, and are, in fact, able to completely shut down our reproductive systems early enough in life to enjoy many years of completely non-procreative post- menopausal sex. Surely these facts should lead to the conclusion that sex, for humans is important and multi-purpose, much more so than for any other mammal. Why should we want to limit ourselves to a mere mammalian procreative mating effort?

Dolphins do it for fun too :)

There are several varieties of higher ape that engage in sexual activities for pleasure. The bonobo is one of them.

@Theresa…If there are less than 5% of our adult population currently having sex to procreate I would imagine our population would be in decline.
Also the piece of paper you get when you’re married is actually nothing to do with the church but a legal document.

After what happened recently with RTE making false allegations about somebody I’d say his producer was screaming in his ear not to ask for a name

But it’s not just about what she wants to do with her body, it’s about what she wants to do to the life inside her.

Shes not some pod, this is a living breathing human being, and, I for one want to live in a country that protects the rights of the breathing life first thanks very much!

Yes. It’s high time we stamped out those non-breathers. Coming over here. Taking our jobs and our women. With their not breathing and their proud ways.

Except that they do breath, via the umbilical cord. What’s your next reason to kill them?

Speaking of which, have you seen in Arizona the law now states that pregnancy begins at least two weeks before conception? I kid you not!
For the record, in the circumstances of this article it’s entirely DUMB that they cannot have an abortion. Personally, I would find it very difficult to abort a baby, depending on the circumstances – but ultimately – that a decision between me and my wife, and the rest of you can go jump in a lake. I am 10,000% pro-choice, politicians, religious organisations nor anyone else shouldn’t have a say in this matter.

Speaking of choice, Paul, the Bill provided for jailing medical workers who conscientiously objected to performing unnecessary abortions.

I take it you’re on board with that, since you so vehemently support the bill? Talk about forcing your views on someone else…

That’s the problem Chuck. People are completely uninformed of the actual contents of the bill. All they see is the headlines.

I didn’t say anywhere I support the bill now did I??
I just said I’m pro choice, I haven’t read the bill so I can’t comment on that.

Just to clarify my point of view, I believe Abortion should be free to the victims of crime always, those with health issues always and all women up until and not past 12 weeks. As regards your deluded rant about jobs etc, Chuck, it has become glaringly obvious to me that those anti choice can do nothing but go off on immature and senseless rants like you just did and are seemingly incapable of making coherent objective points without insulting someone. That makes you just another self righteous want to be preacher in my eyes, and I for one ain’t too fond of being preached at!

@ Diarmaid, Please don’t say stupid things…the scientific fact is that women are not incubators or pods, but it is actually a natural part of their anatomy to be able to bear children.

@ Paul; That particular Arizona law has, as far as I know been misreported/misinterpreted by most mainstream media sources. What is actually in the law is a legal technicality to protect the life of the foetus.

@ Chuck; I totally agree…Non-breathers out!!!

Adam, they may be able to physically be pregnant but some dont want to be mothers. Thats just as acceptable too.

Clare,

They have every right to not be mothers…They just don’t have the right to terminate what is undeniably and scientifically a human life.
The pro-choice lobby argues about personhood and rights of the woman but where science is concerned this question is academic…Life begins at conception.

Diarmaid, you’re just dodging the issue and trying to bring religion into it again. I didn’t insult anyone I pointed out that the bill allows for jailing doctors. I can’t help it if you find facts offensive

Spot on Kevin! You’d have thought that the Roman Catholic church would’ve packed up and disappeared, after being found out for what they really are! Instead you still have brainwashed lunatics spouting their prehistoric views for them! I’d rather practice voodoo!!

No Mike, you’d rather threaten those who disagree with you instead. Not much better than the Catholic Church you criticise surely.

Organised religion is a plague on the modern world. People should keep their beliefs to themselves and let everyone else get on with themselves. When you look at religions, the all have the same message of goodness, which when you look at it is just common sense. Religion has no place in political, educational or health decisions being made on behalf of any population.

@ Mary: While I agree with you on some points, abortion is not a basic human right according to the UDHR.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

“It is a basic human right!!!”

It supercedes the right to life?

“Kids are being abused all over this planet, they are starving, raped, mentally, physically and emotionally abused……and guess what??? NOBODY CARES!!!!”

Could you have possibly said anything less true? Look at the amount of comments on the story about banning smoking outdoors that reference thinking of the children

” No woman makes the decision of having an abortion lightly”

Have you met them all? I’ve met at least one girl who took it extremely lightly and in any case, once you allow abortion on demand you don’t get to ask. Anything goes. Including the Chinese practice of “gendercide” as Ivana Bacik calls it

To be fair Enda Kenny’s Cloyne speech was a major step away from the state being a “religious powerhouse”.

@David, i agree, Enda speech was a breath of fresh air. His speech received cross party support (except FF). However, how he had the sick twisted notion to direct the FFg/Labour TDs yesterday to reject the motion, was so sickening, and showed again, that when push comes to shove, Enda will say or do anything to get votes. It was a complete reversal of his anti-church stance post the Cloyne report speech.

If he was serious he’d look at taking religious references out of the constitution. That’d be a good start.

who’s pretending?

I know, that’s exactly what I was thinking. Before long we will have our own little creationist tea party…shudder!!

The simple fact is that no legislation can be passed that is contrary to the constitution. The constitution only allows for abortion where the life of the mother is at risk. Until the people change the constitution in a referendum this situation won’t change. But no politician will put forward this referendum. Why? Because 83% of people identified themselves as catholic in the census.

70% of Spaniards self-identify as Catholic. Yet, there is abortion on request there for the first trimester of pregnancy.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc: logical fallacy. Just because people identify as Catholic does not necessarily mean they subscribe to Catholic teaching. Do you really think 83% of Irish people think sex before marriage is wrong or that use of contraception is wrong? The reason they don’t want to have another referendum is because the issue is one of the most contentious and bruising topics in politics.

No Philip I don’t think that. But the census figures are used by the government to make decisions in the interests of the public. That is why it is so important and why people should be honest on it. As it stands, 83% of people have stated that they follow Catholic beliefs which are against abortion. With those figures in mind, it would be considered political suicide to put forward such a referendum.

A rather dodgy argument, Sean. 73% of Irish people support same sex marriage, according to recent polls. The Catholic church opposes same sex marriage. You can’t read much into the fact that 83% of the Irish population is nominally Catholic according to the census.

So what you are telling us Paul is that successive repressive regimes in this country are deliberately ignoring the will of its people to maintain its good relationship with the Church? FFG/Labour/FF have a lot to answer for… Facist gits. Women should be allowed to chose, but this government rejected the womans right, even if she is carrying a terminally ill fetus, or even if the pregnancy itself threatens the life of the pregnant woman.

No Paul, I don’t trust in the census figures, but the governement make many decisions based on them.

And Cal, any law authorising abortion in any case other than when there is a threat to the mothers life could not be passed as it would be contrary to the constitution. The constitution must be changed first.

Sean, the motion yesterday, if passed, would have allowed for proper wording on a refernda which would have been put to the people, allowing the change in the constitution. But the facists dont even want to allow the people to have an opinion. Its an absolute disgrace.

Cal, when you say “referendum” I asume you mean “another referendum”, right? And another and another until you get the result you like? I’m guessing we stop having them then?

Chuck, its only FFG/Labour and FF who keep putting out referenda to the people within 6 months of the previous ones being rejected, AKA Lisbon/Niece…

This referenda, if worded correctly/unambiguously and very very clear boundary conditions would pass with greater than 70%, with only the hypocritical religeous nuts rejecting it. All the opinion polls back this up

Cal, what referendum is this?: Allowing abortion on demand? Are you that in tune with the entire country? The country has already approved the ruling in the X case. That ruling explicitly found a right to life for the unborn and placed it lower than the right to life of the mother but ABOVE the right to privacy of the mother

I say again, would you contiue to have referenda after you got the result you want?

Chuck, perhaps you don’t get the context of the gripe with Nice and Lisbon, we were asked to vote on them again in a very short time frame.
It’s been what, a decade since we were asked this last? In light of the amount of women making use of their constitutional right to travel and access these services abroad, after a decade to ask again is logical.
To ask us to vote on Lisbon twice in less than a year is ludicrous given the expenses involved and lack of any real change in between.

To compare them is apples and oranges..

Way to ignore the other half of the question, Shanti. Do you keep having referenda every ten years after you get the result you want?

By the way, if you believe the NWCI every other man is choosing to commit rape and domestic assault. Should we legalise those since there’s such a demand? Of course not, because it tramples on the rights of others. Why doesn’t that apply to abortion too?

We were granted the right to travel, and as a result of that right many women do. This shows that there is a demand.
This is why people say pro choice – they support either choice, to carry to term OR to have an abortion. See? CHOICE.
Pro life means – carry to term, whether you like it or not.
As someone who did fall pregnant to an abusive partner, I’m just glad I miscarried. If I hadn’t? You would be fine with forcing me to have carried that persons baby. It has nothing to do with you, but you’d FORCE me, remove my choice, make me go through a pregnancy which would be harmful to me both psychologically AND physically..
Way for you to completely ignore what we were supposed to legislate for 20 years ago..

And still no answer! Shanti – Do we keep having a referendum every ten years or do we stop when you get what you want?

No, I’m not “fine” with forcing anyone to carry a baby to term if they don’t want to. But I’m even less fine with killing it. And Im waaaay less than fine with what that evolves into over time

Your definition of Pro-Life doesn’t match mine. In any case, i never said i was “Pro-Life” because I think it’s a stupid term (as is pro-choice). I said I’m against abortion on demand

Chuck.
My reply to you was simply about comparing Nice / Lisbon (two referenda which were brought back before the people in record time, before any appreciable difference or consequence of a no vote could be appreciated) to a proposed referendum on reproductive rights posed a decade later is disingenuous, as we have seen women exercise their right to travel and information – as was granted in the last referendum. This gives reason to reconsider. This is how things work, we observe and adjust accordingly.

You ask why we don’t legalise domestic abuse seeing as its so popular, I’ll tell you why.
It was legal, up until very recently, as was spousal rape. We looked at it, saw it was wrong because it involved interefering with another human beings body. The charter of human rights says that we are BORN equal, not that we are conceived equal.
In the case of a pregnant woman, as she is already born, she has a right not to be interfered with. As the foetus does not technically fall under the remit of human rights her rights take precedence. She has a right to decide whether or not she will undergo the massive changes that pregnancy brings with it. They will have an effect on her body, whether it is a straightforward pregnancy or not.
To restrict a woman’s choice over what happens to her body is to restrict her freedom.
I advocate choice. The bonus of my position means that you are still free to follow your convictions. For you to oppose the choice means that you do not wish to offer others the respect for their choice that you demand of yours.

“A morally twisted individual.” really?

We need to have a mature debate on abortion, and look at the pros and cons objectively.

Calling people names is not constructive and does a disservice not just to the individual thus slandered, but also to the women in the situation who have had a truely tragic story.

Whoa! Nasty!!

”No one has the right to tell anyone what they should do.”

so we should let everyone out of jail right now
I love this crazy libertarian view
but I would be surprised you know what that mean

@Sean, are you suggesting or comparing women who want abortions to murderers and rapists?

No Cal I was pointing out the massive flaw in this argument
Society will always tell people what they can and cannot do

Paul, I agree, except he’s not so new. They’ve always been there. He does however, represent a new arrogant breed of right wingers, who think that the past can be airbrushed at will, and nobody will notice. Of course, they are wrong, but will that stop them?. No. These odious, repellant, repugnant, vile, disingenuous and artfully deceitfull curs, will unfortunately always be amongst us. The only thing that has changed, is that the majority, instead of a minority, now knows the truth. What a difference a century makes.

“Bloody men in suits should keep their mouths shut and their trousers zipped up”

By any chance should women should keep their skirts down and their legs closed? There’s no hypocrisy whatsoever in thinking that abortion as a form on contraception is wrong, and also thinking that removing the right to travel freom everyone who might possibly be pregnant is unworkable, horrific and also wrong

Very sexist! Let’s face it it takes two to tango.

Cora, a molar pregnancy begins at conception, its begins when an egg is fertilized by a sperm, it creates the same symptoms in a woman as a normal pregnancy. Please do not tell me how to do my job.
As abortion is legal then woman are perfectly within their rights to have an abortion.
Women who are so far gone in their pregnancy that people know they are pregnant are usually assumed to want to be pregnant unlike those who go for an abortion so your post about 9/11 is irrelevant.

Say what you like about it but it IS legal, women WILL have abortions and if they do not want to be pregnant then that is 100% none of your business and you will never stop them.
Until there is a law to say it is illegal to have an abortion then woman have every right to abort.

@Ciara,

A “molar pregnancy” may begin at conception but it is not the same as the unborn life which, if left undisturbed, will grow and develop into a adult human being.

I am in no way telling you how to do your job but you will be well aware of the difference between molar pregnancies and normal pregnancies.

It is legal in some countries for men to abuse their wives – does this mean it is “without their rights” to do so?

My example regarding 9/11 is perfectly valid. You stated that unborn lives do not form part of society – this was not the view felt by those who organised the 9/11 Memorial. They very much felt that additional unborn lives had been ended in the attacks, and as a result their society mourned them.

There is a deeper problem in your argument on this ground. Do you feel that an unborn life only derives rights when her mother decides that she is “wanted”? Such a notion runs contrary to international human rights practice, which seeks to protect and vindicate the rights of all human beings, regardless of whether they are considered important or even wanted in the eyes of anyone else.

If it were in fact “100% none of my business”, then the same would apply to you which would mean that you should not be expounding your beliefs here either! But I think you have every right to give your opinion – as do I. The rights and concerns of individual human lives concern us all and we are all entitled to be part of the debate. I think this is even more so the case with abortion because the unborn life that will potentially be ended has no voice to speak for herself and must rely on others taking an interest in her right to be born.

Cora, you said life begins at conception, clearly so can a tumour.
Abortion is a legal procedure therefore there is nothing about it that contravenes a human rights abuse or it would be illegal.
As for men abusing their wives, that is not in law, it is in some mens culture. Women are protected by Human Rights charters applicable all over the world. A foetus is not.
Of course a pregnancy had to be ‘wanted’ in order for a woman to remain pregnant! What woman would carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?
And it is none of your business what a women does with her body just as its none of mine whether she has an abortion or not! You cannot make a woman have a child! Im not telling women to abort or not to abort, you are! There is a difference. I dont know why we are still discussing this because it IS happening legally and it will remain that way! It may or may not come into this country but the fact remains, women will abort legally without your permission or approval and that is entirely their prerogative.

This is in response to http://www.thejournal.ie/ronan-mullen-horrified-at-nasty-suggestions-over-abortion-debate-424919-Apr2012/#comment-363578

Yeh lashing it out…. :)

Paul, they were not present for the debate. Did you bother finding out where they were? 35 FFG/Labour/FF TDs were absent also… What does that tell you ???

There was other aspects to the bill that may not have sat well with them. As I said below it provided for jailing medical professionals who object to carrying out abortions.

Also, Clare Daly was explicit that this was the thin end of the wedge for abortion on demand. I suspect at least some TDs feel, as I do, that we don’t need legislation to allow for treatments that save a woman’s life but end that of the unborn. It’s already provided for the by constitution on the Supreme Court and there have been comments on this site this week from women who obtained such treatment here in Ireland (although they didn’t like the word ‘abortion’)

So your mam didnt abort you, thats brilliant. Im delighted for you Sean. This doesnt change the fact that abortion is not your decision to make.

I simplify further. I am am allowed to have a say on whether human beings are allowed to be killed via abortion as I was once a living foetus surely people should have an interest other living human beings

Until you have a womb then its isnt your choice.

but I still can contribute to the debate even though I personally cannot have an abortion

You can of course but it has no relevance on what a woman is going to do with whats in HER body.

I was being sarcastic!!!

The idea of perinatal hospices is actually quite progressive and offers a caring option to families who want the support and help to get through a very difficult time. The attempt to misrepresent their function is quite shocking.

“I have had an abortion and met Ronan Mullen at lunchtime the same day. I run abortion recovery programmes”

So you are someone who may have had an abortion in the past, but thinks abortions are always wrong. Do I understand that correctly? I which case, you do not fall in the same category as the women to whom Mullen made the alleged remark.

P.

Youre a student. Wait till youre working a few years. Why should a woman have to go through labour if she doesnt want to? I work with these women. People ask them when are they due? How do you think that makes them feel. Do you think its wonderful for them to have ti say their baby is dead or is dying?

Hi Ciara,

I hope when I’ve been working a few years I will still treat women with compassion and dignity – my point of view comes from looking at the long term aftereffects of abortion. Of course i don’t think it’s wonderful for them to have to say they’re baby is dying – it’s horrific and as such they should get appropriate support and counselling but at the same time, they should be empowered to know that they have the strength to carry the baby, meet them, hold them, and name them, to give that baby’s life worth and value, and potentially save themselves from a lifetime of regret and pain. Are you aware that the majority of women who have abortions and go back to their doctors are not directed to mental healthcare professionals? Instead, their abortion is repeatedly justified and any negative feelings squashed. That in and of itself is incredibly damaging, as the women can then feel like they shouldn’t feel grief, which can have knock on effects.

Holly, I can completely respect your argument but perhaps if women were allowed to have abortions here, they could attend pre abortion counselling, make their decision and then have post abortion counselling. Some of the trauma is no doubt associated with the stigma attached to abortion by this country and the lack of empathy and sympathy.

Hi Ciara,

I understand what you’re saying but I suppose looking at the system in England, the pre-abortion counselling is pretty dire, if it exists at all. Is there any reason to believe this would be different if abortion were legalised in Ireland? I think you’re very right about the stigma contributing to the trauma and there are groups on both sides of the debate that don’t make it easy on the women in these situations. Personally, I believe that the longterm effects have the potential to be more damaging than following a natural grieving process so that’s the point I’m getting at – all arguments of religion or politics aside, the facts are that vehement pro-abortionists sometimes skip over giving full information in their desire to provide the woman with the “choice” of abortion. I feel like an uninformed choice is hardly any choice at all. (The flip side is that there are many pro-lifers who are so focused on saving the baby that the mother is disregarded – I happen to believe that both are equal and that modern healthcare and medicine can care for both in the vast majority of circumstances)

Sorry, Holly, could you point to peer reviewed journals that claim the mother often suffers more trauma from an abortion than from the fetal diagnosis or an unwanted pregnancy? There are several peer reviewed studies which show at least 90% feel they made the right decision and report no major trauma (and these are the journals used by Youth Defence to show that 10% state they feel traumatised and unhappy with their decisions.)

I’m wondering where you’re coming from that pre-abortion counselling in England is insufficient. I’m very familiar with Marie Stopes and Bpas, so I’d be interested to hear where that is coming from.

When you have buried a baby you know what hell is
Carrying a baby and everyone asking naturally about when is it due ect that is torture and then after its funeral time if I had to do that it would make me suicidal, I’m so lucky I had no problems with any of my pregnancies but I have people close to me that had and I would not want any one to go through what they had too

HI Nick,

The two main papers that I think are best for summarising the evidence are a meta analysis by dr Priscilla Coleman (Abortion and mental health: quantitative synthesis and analysis of research published 1995–2009, The British Journal of Psychiatry (2011) 199: 180-186) and Dr Patricia Casey (Invited commentaries on… Abortion and mental health disorders, The British Journal of Psychiatry (2008) 193: 452-454). In addition to these, groups such as Silent No More and Be Not Afraid have a wealth of first hand stories of men and women who have had abortions and regretted them. I hope to conduct more qualitative studies in the future as I feel that area has been overlooked in favour of the numbers game employed by quantitative stats. For example, a quantitative study may well show that 90% of women believed they made the right choice but will not examine the complexities of their long term feelings and regrets. Very few abortion studies are longitudinal in nature.

With regards to the counselling provided by Marie Stopes and BPAS, my knowledge of that comes via personal testimony of friends and acquaintances who felt they were hurried into abortions by these groups, with no real discussion of alternate options – which makes sense as both these groups stand to profit financially.

I hope this adequately answers the questions you asked. I’d like to reiterate that I’m nt looking to get into a debate but to express my belief that as a woman, I don’t believe abortion should ever be first-line healthcare for women, as in our advanced society there are always other options.

@Sister blister, I am so sorry that you and your friends had to experience something as horrifying as burying a child and I really hope that you and they feel you have a support network that cares for you all.

I realise you don’t wish to debate this, Holly, but I feel the statements you have made deserve answers. The first is that these organisations profit from abortions. One in particular actually has a policy that they will never turn a woman seeking away for an abortion, as they believe deeply in the right to an abortion. I know of several cases where Irish women were able to access free abortions due to their financial circumstances, so arguing that these charities benefit from abortions is untrue.

Abortion counselling is particularly limited for Irish women, as most Irish women have childcare and job requirements and are required to go home quickly. I think having counselling (proper, non directive counselling) available to women in Ireland would be helpful, but unfortunately only IFPA offers any kind of non directive advice. It’s certainly something that can be improved, but I would never want to see a counsellor who assumed that an abortion would obviously be a traumatic experience for me. Everyone has a different experience.

Long term studies could probably do more research, but if we’re using anecdotal evidence, I know several people of my mother’s generation (50s) and well as my own who have no regrets about their abortion and as several people on this forum have expressed, there is no unique experience. I just hope that anyone working with these women would not try to guilt women about their abortion and would consider empowerment to be allowing women to make the best decision for themselves and their families. In some cases, that will be an abortion.

In the words of Dr. Robert Hare, you know the words but not the music. Nice try, but you failed.

Sakipol
He didnt deny any offense – he stated he would be horrified if he caused any.
As for evidence, well, see the comments of the people who, unlike me and you, were in the room. Are they lying?

@brianlucey

I wouldn’t dream of calling anybody a liar. I merely stated that it was likely a communication difficulty and perhaps the lynch mob should hold their fire and try to establish the facts.

Unfortunately, since then, major inconsistencies have come to light:

https://twitter.com/mtfmraii/status/193765453645090817

i.e. Senator Mullen’s accusers have changed their story.

This debate, including on this thread, is degraded by this kind of descent to personal vilification. If people have a point, they should debate it, in an objective manner, without this sort of slander.

And, intelligent commentators will wait for evidence before running off with their torch lit.

Individually women get paid the same. What is in the news is that the average pay for women is lower. This is because women haven’t advanced as far in various careers as men. This trend is steadily changing as attitudes towards women change.

Are you for real Sean? “this is because women haven’t advanced as far in various careers as men” – utter rubbish. Women bear the brunt of making arrangements for children, because their partners usually won’t. Not they can’t. They won’t. I’m a professional thanks very much. With a two year old. Ciara you are spot on in what you say. Men rant and rave about abortion because they can’t be the sole decision maker. Fact.

60% of the workforce are women and on top of holding down paying jobs, theyre home makers and child carers too! And they still get paid less than men! If women were paid in proportion to the work they do both career wise and in the family home then I can guarantee you that women would be on at least twice as much money as men.

Theres a glass ceiling Sean, it wasnt put there by women but when women take time to take care of their children, theyre penalised by people like you who assume they just arent as good as men at their jobs or havent ‘advanced’ as much. How can women advance when men like you consider them just here to have babies?

I love it when people give opinions and finish it by saying “Fact!” :)

Elizabeth just because you can’t get a decent man doesn’t mean all men don’t take care of their children. There are plenty of men out there that contribute just as much as their partner to raising a child.

As to the equal pay issue. Show me one job where a man is paid more than a woman. Look at the directors for the top companies. Women are not well represented. Same goes for politics. It stands to reason that average pay would be in favour of men but on an individual basis they are paid equally.

Ciara you are making some pretty untrue allegations about me there. If men got as much paternity leave as womens maternity then you might see more men staying at home. I believe in equality. Your views and those of Elizabeths are as outdated and sexist as the ones you rant against.

“Men rant and rave about abortion because they can’t be the sole decision maker. Fact.”

Thanks for the loose generalisation. If I started a sentence with “Women…” and followed it up with some loose generalisation, I’d be lambasted for sexism. Those who believe that sexism is wrong shouldn’t engage in such double standards. Fact.

Sean, I didnt want to bring bodily functions into it but here we go! If men were bleeding for months after a baby was born, had leaky breasts, a softened pelvis, hormonal surges and were breast feeding then Im sure theyd be more than happy to and entitled to stay at home but as what I have mentioned above does not happen to a babies father then many women will require time off plus it may be more difficult emotionally for a woman who carried a baby for 9 months and then pushed it out of her body to go back to work early.

Sean, less of the personnal jibes at Elizabeth,. Youre scrapping the barrel of pettiness now.
Ryan, women have thicker skins as we are well used to sexism and men generalising about us. Women drivers, women should be home minding the kids, women banned from certain golf clubs, lapdancing clubs, judging women on how they look, we see and hear it every day. Its not nice when the table is turned now is it?

Ryan, Sean just ruined your sexism argument with his sexist and misogynistic jibe at Elizabeth but women get this all the time!

I completely agree Ciara! My missus gave birth this year and Jesus there’s no way on earth I’d be able to go through what she did this includes the hormonal bi polar breaching, constant vomiting, swollen every thing, leaking,bleeding….broken everything!! I can only assume from a guys perspective that what she went through is hell on earth (and this is something we planned and wanted for a long time) but if things were different I wonder would she be able to go it alone!? She tells me not! And I know I wouldn’t (if I could). It is the woman’s body and regardless of my minute sperm of which there at millions and millions, she is the controller so to speak and I think the decision should be hers and hers alone. Fair play to you for saying it how it is!! I don’t thing abortion should be used as a contraceptive but if a woman doesn’t want to have the baby then it’s her decision!! In this case a muppet politician get to decide for those women, I wonder has he seen birth up close and personal….

Well, at least anyone reading the progression of comments gets to see Ciara descend into spluttering sexist comments “you men dont know how hard we have it” well guess what Ciara? Some of us do know. Some of us care so much about it that we want this bill passed as much as any woman. It’s great to see women such as yourself show a bit of gratitude for our support rather than throw it in our faces

When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same?

As Sean said, individuals are paid the same. The only example I can think of where people are paid less purely because of their gender is male models. Even women tennis players get he same money for less work.

I have to support the Seans on this one

So Ryan, if at 8 and a hlf months she told you she was aborting the baby you would be completely ok with her decision and your lack of input into it?

Women get paid less for golf and tennis.
As for your point that women dont do as many hours as men, this is total crap! have you ever stayed home to mind kids? Its not 9-5, its constant. Most women who have kids also have jobs so theyre working twice as many hours for less pay! You cannot dispute this! If women were paid what they were actually worth, theyd be millionaires!

Oh!! Golf and Tennis the final frontier

Chuck gave it as an example, not me!

so who should pay for you to look after you own children?
do you want more than the child benefit?
By the same logic I want some mysterious person to pay me to brush my teeth and wipe my ass

The original point that you are commenting on states that women are paid less than men, not just women with kids.

Chuck Farrelly
”When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same?”
What a totally sexist and stupid remark !
You obviously do not know many lady doctors or nurses, prison officers, Gardai, Fire officers,defence force personnel, Ships officers ,pilots ….etc. , are brave. Women who have a child on their own because they do not want an abortion , but the father does not want to know are also very brave.Women do bear the brunt of child rearing ” ”When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same?” They should get paid more.

”get paid more” what paid more??

Sean Walsh
Yes ! Get paid more .

so discriminate against another human being based on their gender
is that what you are saying???

No. That is Not what ”I ” was saying . Not at all ! Why would you say I said That ? Is n’t that what women have been putting up with for years and then here is a politician like mullen and he endorses it by suggesting perinatal hospice for women whose unborn foetus are dying or no life expectancy outside the womb ….Hollow !

”Why on earth would they get paid the same?” They should get paid more.”
you were referring to women right??

so you say one human being should be paid more than another based on their gender??

Why should they get paid less as Chuck was suggesting ? He said it Read the post.

well Im questioning you on what you said

chuck said people should get paid the same hourly wage which is the case almost all the time

No. Chuck said…”When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same”
I am questioning his reasoning behind his ludicrous statement . !

Well Im not chuck but he may be referring to the fact that women and men are paid the same when it comes to an hourly wage rate

are you saying women should be paid a greater hourly wage rate??

maybe single mothers with dead beat fathers should but not all women

”When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same”
This is what he said . So maybe he will answer himself :)
It is just that I know alot of women who work long hours and some in dangerous situations and rear children too, or at least are pregnant while holding down the jobs I mentioned, and I think his comment was very sexist . That is all, and in light of the thread and other issues touched on , I think there are a lot of very brave women out there

so they should be paid more because they are women??

Are you suggesting that women should be paid less ?

NO
Im asking should women be paid more because they are women ??

I worked in a job where I worked the same hours and carried out the same tasks as the men I worked with , so I do not see why Chuck would make such a statement . What do you believe Sean ?

well you and ciara suggested women should be paid more than men for equal work
I have a big problem with this

NO . You are wrong ! I certainly did not say that and neither has Ciara said it , but as I am not a mind reader I can not say why you are twisting my words. There is no point in having an adult discussion with you. Goodnight,.

Sean Wsh, I never said that women should be paid more. I did say that if women/mothers were paid properly for all the work that they do and the roles that they fill such as their paid job on top of childminding and housekeeping then theyd be earning a lot more than they are and more than most fathers.

”Women do bear the brunt of child rearing ” ”When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same?” They should get paid more”

”Most women who have kids also have jobs so theyre working twice as many hours for less pay! You cannot dispute this! If women were paid what they were actually worth, theyd be millionaires!”

”the work that they do and the roles that they fill such as their paid job on top of childminding and housekeeping then theyd be earning a lot more than they are and more than most fathers.”

Your quotes not mine; keep trying shout down
I am not responsible for YOUR children I or no one else should have to pay you to look after your OWN children

Sean, I dont have kids but Im more than happy to contribute towards the cost of good childcare in this country for working mothers.

So am I
but that is very much different from saying that women should be paid more than men because women look after their children

Sean Walsh
only one of them quotes is mine. Have a good day.

“Chuck Farrelly
”When viewed as a group women don’t work equal hours and don’t accept equal danger. Why on earth would they get paid the same?”
What a totally sexist and stupid remark !
You obviously do not know many lady doctors or nurses, prison officers, Gardai, Fire officers,defence force personnel, Ships officers ,pilots ….etc. , are brave”

Susie, I think you deliberately avoided getting the point there. I differentiated between viewing women as a group (which wasn’t my idea, it’s the terms Ciara was arguing on) ad viewing them as individuals. Individuals in the prison service, Gardai and Army get paid the same regardless of gender (even though women have lower physical fitness standards imposed in the army).

As a group, women work fewer hours over their lifetime and almost all workplace fatalities are suffered by men. Read more about it here http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm http://www.kanetix.ca/ic_life_info_life_articles_30 if you like. Last year 100% of workplace fatalities in Ireland were suffered by men.

Individuals doing dangerous jobs are all paid the same. Usually those individuals are men. These are facts, Susie

Yes Susie, only one of those quotes that Sean mentioned was yours……..but it WAS yours. How many times do you need to say it for you to be the one who said it?

You categorically stated that women should be paid more than men. You also accused me of being sexist. Hilarious stuff!

Chuck Farrelly
Thanks for your reply.
You have totally missed the point :)

Which is?

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the comment. I would argue that the lead story is based on Mullen’s response to the fact that his name has been attached to the allegations. He was happy to comment on the record about the accusations. We did not name him first.

With regard to the discussion forum post, we linked to it once the women confirmed it themselves here: https://twitter.com/#!/MTFMRAII

Hope that clears it up.

Best,
Sinead

Hi Sinéad,

That’s for your response. I hadn’t spotted that this had been confirmed on Twitter by the women themselves. I only saw the blog post referred to in the story and when I saw it was by a user called “whitemocha” and referred to a TD, rather than a Senator, it raised my curiosity that it might be someone just online posting untruths.

Probably more than most, I question a lot of what I read online and in the media – particularly after the Reynolds case.

But thanks again for coming back so quickly. Have a good weekend!

Men certainly have an input into any laws or referendums. But when it comes to an actual individual situation, that’s it. The owner of the uterus, and no one else, gets to decide whether to lend it out or not.

And, as a man uncomfortable with a woman’s right to choose, you had better make sure you use a condom EVERY SINGLE TIME.

First off, more civilians die in war than soldiers, so women do participate. Secondly, there are a lot more men in the army due to sociatal reasons, mainly that women weren’t allowed to enter the military and that it’s still not perceived as a suitable profession. The fact that women, not men, carry babies a is a biological one. There’s a big difference. The decision on whether on not a woman has an abortion, should be THAT individual woman’s decision to make. Not the father’s. Not some group of other women’s. Just her’s and her’s alone.

Obviously, in individual cases, I would hope women who are in supportive, loving or even friendly relationships would discuss their decision with the father (especially as I happen to think the best way to raise a child is through co parenting if possible), but it is important for men to understand that they particularly cannot experience the feeling that women have when carrying a child.

This is why the women who has come forward to share their stories is so important. Unless you’ve been pregnant, you cannot speak to your experiences, and unless you’ve had a termination, you cannot understand what the experience would be like. While men can participate in democracy, it is important for women to be heard about these issues, as it is for disabled people to speak to how they can be better supported by society.

handicapped people ARE members of society, a foetus in the womb is not.

@Ciara –

With respect, you are a member of society while in the womb.

Your journey as a human being begins at conception as you have 100% of the DNA that you will ever have at that stage. The only other element required is time to grow and develop.

Once that journey has begun, no-one has the right to intervene and end it prematurely. This is the case regardless of whether the human in question is unborn, a baby, child, teenager, adult or pensioner.

Cora! That is all YOUR opinion!
If you believe that life begins at conception then i suggest you look up molar pregnancies which are tumours that occur at conception. Is this the ‘life’ youre talking about?

A foetus is NOt a member of society (in my opinion) and if i decide to have an abortion, it is absolutely none of your business and no amount of you telling me no one has the right to intervene will change my mind. Abortion is a procedure or service that is provided to women who go for them voluntarily and they are legal therefore a doctor has the right to perform them or a nurse has the right to prescribe the drugs to induce as miscarriage and i have the right to intervene in whatever is happening within my own body.
Its you who does not have the right to intervene in my life unless i ask you to and you certainly do not have the right to intervene in what happens in my womb.

Adele, hang on, so youve had two abortions yet youre telling us its better to hold your own child for an hour?
Im confused here. have you done both?
maybe some women dont want to be constantly asked when their due date is when theyre carrying a dying foetus.

@Ciara –

Your comments to Adele lack the respect and compassion that she deserves.

I applaud her courage in speaking out about her experiences of abortion and I am very glad that there are groups like Women Hurt in Ireland and Rachel’s Vineyard in the USA, where volunteers give their time to help and support women suffering in the aftermath of abortion.

Eh Cora, did you actually read my post? Im 100% pro-choice but I found what Adele said contradictory. She has had 2 abortions yet shes telling us that people should hold their child.
Is she claiming that she would rather have held her child after it was born naturally but was dying and regrets the abortions or what?

Ciara: I think Adele’s comment is pretty clear and straightforward. She regrets her abortions. Do you think that women like her deserve to be heard?

@Ciara,

I read both your comment and Adele’s comment.

I thought it was quite clear that she had two abortions which she regrets. Her comments about how it is better to hold your own child were made in relation to the video quoted, which is entitled “99 Balloons” and tells the story of a couple whose baby was born with severe disabilities but lived for 99 days and was loved and cared for them during every one of those days.

You comment on so many stories regarding abortion and obviously have a keen interest in the area of women’s health. I think you should watch the video and see what you think.

I think it’s important for Adele to speak up and to mention how society can better support women who want to parents but feel they can’t without income or supportive partners.

It is a mistake, however, to assume her experience is that of all women. Most women who have abortions do not consider it horrific, so I just hesitate to universalise her (incredibly valid and important) experiences.

The baby in the womb doesnt have rights Martin. As for the ‘where would you be if your mam aborted you’ argument, seriously???

The baby in the womb DOES have rights, Ciara. The Constitution and the Supreme Court are very clear on that

Article 40.3.3 “The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.”

You accuse other people of sticking their heads in the sand and yet you ignore this?

If that was the case then women would be prevented from leaving the country to have abortions.

Everyone who can participate in this debate wasn’t miscarried by their mother either. Or stillborn. Nor did we did from SIDS. Tell you, what if sperm had met egg one day earlier, I wouldn’t be here either. I’m not sure why it threatens anyone’s world view that they could have not been born.

My mother was pro choice and I am happy to have the absolute knowledge that I was wanted. I feel bad for people who don’t know the way I do that their mother could have chosen not to have them but did anyway.

No Ciara, it wouldn’t. Do you really think I am just making up the constitution? Read it yourself, it’s free. The 14th amendment to the constitution states;

“The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.”

You have real trouble with the idea of balancing of rights. A right does not have to absolute to exist.

So whats the practical application of this? Is it just that the foetus has this right in Ireland but if a woman travels for an abortion then its null and void?

Why can’t men enter the debate? Abortion affects them too as parents. It’s about having intelligent debate rather than one sided debate.

@Patrick you beat me to it… Ultimately I suppose its always going to be the woman’s choice either way, but the father should have some input too – its not like its irrelevant to him…

Patrick, until your faced with an unwanted pregnancy then you really arent affected by this.

And lots of baby men are aborted every year. Of course it effects men.

You will NEVER be pregnant with a foetus you do not want. It will NEVER be a decision that you will have to make.

@Patrick

“It’s about having intelligent debate” but then above you called him “such a gobsh**e”. Yeah, ok.

This is about the autonomy of a womans body which is hers and hers alone.

Sometimes the word Gobsh*te covers a multitude of descriptive terms.

Ciara, until you’re affected by an unwanted pregnancy this will never apply to you either. Wake up and start a more intelligent conversation

No Ciara, it is about terminating a life, a life created by two people, not one.

Well lets call a spade a spade, when you treat women who were so brave to tell a story so terribly, you are a gob**ite. No I have not faced an unwanted pregnancy of course, but I can’t even imagine how difficult it is for BOTH parents.

Sean, you have no idea what i may or may not have been faced with but as a woman, I know exactly how an unwanted pregnancy can make a woman feel. YOU will NEVER have a pregnancy scare, be pregnant or have to carry an unwanted foetus so you cannot compare a mans situation to a womans. Whether or not a woman carrys a pregnancy is up to her, it is not up to you and it will never be up to a man. You cannot know what goes on inside the head of a pregnant woman or girl.

Claire- A woman alone is not a parent. Two people came together to create life/potential life. It affects both parents. I think you are just arguing for the very sake of it without making sense.

Sean, should we lock up all pregnant women to make them have these babies? Should we patrol the airports and seaports to ensure no pregnant woman is heading abroad? I dont think so. You may contribute to making it which infairness is the easiest thing in the world but its not your body that its growing in or feeding off so the choice is not yours to make. Maybe more men should be out there demanding equal pay to women in the work place if they are so pro-woman and let the women make the decisions for their own bodies autonomy.

Patrick, Im not arguing here at all. There are plenty of kids out there who were made by a man and a woman, most of them infact but men can just walk away. Some do and some dont but ultimately they do not have to be pregnant! You cannot have a child if the woman doesnt want it regardless of whether or not the man wants it! Women go through a hell of a lot when they are pregnant, physically, emotionally, psychologically and you will never have to go through any of this regardless of whether you are with your pregnant partner or not.
I know men get really angry about this, its almost like because they know its a decision that women make without their knowledge or that women dont need their approval then its even more emotive.
Women are much more than an incubator and should be allowed to decide what does or does not grow inside them.

No need to get so emotional Ciara. I think you’ll find women do get equal pay. You are right though. I don’t know anything about you, nor do i care to. You obviously have little respect for any life which isn’t yours. I do.

I’ve made my position crystal clear before. If the child has no chance of life or the mothers life is at risk then they should be able to have an abortion in Ireland. Otherwise it’s just being used as a form of contraception. If you don’t want to get pregnant then close your legs. It’s actually easier than creating a child.

@Ciara It might be the easiest thing in the world for a man to make a woman pregnant but your comments seem to suggest that men are devoid of emotions, do not grieve when their potential child is aborted or indeed do not struggle when their partner decides to carry a child they do not want.

As I alluded to above, ultimately a man cannot force a woman to carry a child she doesn’t want, or abort a child she wants to give birth to, but for you to suggest that the decision has nothing to do with the father and doesn’t affect him is simplistic in the extreme.

No, fathers should be involved. Not every father is absent – having a baby terminated against your wishes must be a horrific experience. No, they don’t carry the babies, but we shouldn’t assume that their lives won’t be equally changed by having the baby – it works both ways. I agree that ultimately it has to be a woman’s choice, and I’m horrified that there are so few people in our government who can’t see this – they’d rather suggest people abstain from sex, or see the country peopled with unwanted children who’ll bring their problems into our overpopulated society that has few resources to deal with the emotional fall out. Arg.

Finally, ‘women should not ‘feel’ they have to travel?’ There’s no ‘feel’ about it, it’s not like there’s a choice.

Not to mention insensitive and insulting to men.

Mattoid, you might find what i have said insulting but what I find even more insulting is a group of men voting no to an issue which is based on womens bodies and our right to make decisions for ourselves.
98% of single parents are female so this IS an issue that affects women more than it can ever affect men. Women are ultimately the ones left looking after their children.
People can argue about this till they are blue in the face but the fact remains, it is up to a woman to decide if she wants to remain pregnant.

No woman should have to give birth to a baby she does not want.

Oh, ok. Yes, for me, fathers having a say in the life of their child is completely different from a group of insensitive, parochial, unemotionally educated, biased men making decisions about women’s health and people’s choices generally. I hate it in the US where looneys make legislation for lives they have no connection with or understanding of, and I hate it here. But the presence of Michelle Mulherin in this debate doesn’t make me feel any safer or spoken for, believe me.

@Ciara

I’m genuinely not trying to put words in your mouth here but following your logic to it’s natural conclusion. If a man has no rights with regard to what a woman pregnant with his baby/foetus/whatever does would you agree that he should also have no responsibilities. So if the woman decides to keep it he should be free to deny child support and say ‘well it was her decision to keep, it’s got nothing to do with me’.

I don’t think you can have your bread buttered on both sides.

I think this question is one that can only be dealt with on a case by case basis, but generally, I don’t see how we can argue with Brian’s bread and butter point.

Seriously Ciara? What does the amount of single parents have to do with abortion? Many single parents are happy with they have their child. As far as I know the majority of people who have abortions are not single. I think it’s disgusting that you assume single mothers would have taken the option of abortion. Not everyone is emotionally void in regards to children as you seem to be.

And the main reason the legislation wasn’t passed is because it was seen as unconstitutional. It would be borderline retarded to pass a law that would be immediately challenged and struck out because it would take so much longer for it to be passed again as opposed to the current situation where it simply needs a redraft.

Brian, if a baby is born, then both parents have a responsibility to it but while its in the womb, it is only reliant on the woman therefore it is up to her to decide whether or not she wants to be pregnant and if she wants to give birth.

Sean, I NEVER even suggested that women who are single parents would have considered abortion, not even for a second was that mentioned. I mention 98% of single parents being women which means they are raising their children NOT the fathers.

@Ciara your body may be your own, but 50% of the DNA in a foetus is someone else’s, yet you seem to dismiss this as irrelevant.
Not all men have the emotions of an amoeba!

And you cannot grow that foetus without a womb , a womans blood supply, desire to have a baby and willingness to give birth!!
A man does a very easy job! Its not exactly taxing to provide his DNA!
A woman has to give up everything, change her lifestyle, contend with massive hormone changes, bodily changes and adjustments on top of labour and giving birth! You cannot compare or equate a man providing sperm to what a woman goes through!

Ciara you said that women are the ones left looking after the child. So it seems to be about the inconvenience for you. Maybe you should be looking for young women to be provided with better birth control education and then that same situation could be avoided.

I don’t think anyone’s equating men’s experience with women’s but I think it’s a huge mistake, and a sexist one, to insist men have no say in the fate of their child.

@Ciara,

So a man should have no rights whatsoever when it comes to what will affect his partners life and body for 9 months. But a women has 100% say over what will affect his life for at 18 years?! You’ll have a tough time convincing most rational people that that is a just way of doing things.

With regards to this figure of 2% single fathers. I think you need to consider how difficult it is for a willing man to become a single father. Unless the mother is a drug addict or whatever he doesn’t have a hope in hell of getting custody.

No Sean, its nothing to do with inconvenience. Its to do with whether or not she wants to have a child and be a mother. Some women simply do not want to be a mother.
Im sure if it were men who had the babies and were the ones who ultimately sacrificed their bodies, lifestyles and careers then you’d be also pro-choice. Yes i know that there are some men who stay at home with their kids but they are few and far between. Most women who have abortions are not as young as you seem to think. Many are married or in relationships. Some just do not want children!
Some are raped, some are unwell, some are carrying a foetus that is incompatible with life, so why should they be forced to continue with these pregnancies?

Brian! Exactly! You hit the nail on the head! He has NO rights over his partners body whether she is pregnant or not no more than she has over his! Just like a woman has no rights over her partners body! Only recently it became a crime to rape your wife because back in the day, it was considered the womans duty to have sex with her husband. Now we acknowledge that her body is hers and hers alone!

Jo, men should have a say in the fate of their child when its born but when its in the womb, they dont as its not their decision to make. A man cannot insist a woman continue with her pregnancy no more than he can insist he have an abortion.

Ciara, if we only allowed discourse on matters that affect society by people who have lived or been affected by those special set of circumstances we’d have very limited debate indeed.

I think the problem here is with the word ‘insist’. I have to say, I didn’t see my babies as part of me alone while I was pregnant. And my hypothetical decision to abort them would not have just taken myself into account, but their father too, and our life together. I agree that it ultimately has to be a woman’s decision, as no one should be forced to be pregnant, no. But to suggest that men should have no input, no involvement in the decision is awful.

Winston, pick another topic that affects the bodily autonomy of 50% of the population and we’ll have a debate on it.

Jo, its brilliant that you had the support of your partner but many women dont. I know a few girls who were left alone when the father of their kids just walked away. Promised all the support in the world and just walked away and left them.

@Ciara,

Please don’t do that, I was very careful not put words in your mouth and then you just cut my comment in half, take the bits you like and pretend I share your views.

As a man I find it’s very unfair that a guy can have 18 years of child support/lifelong stigma hoisted upon him like that. You’re saying that a woman should have total control over his fate. That is really duplicitous!

You also ignored my last point about how it’s very misleading to say that ’2% or single parents are men …therefore men don’t give a feck!’.

If you dont want to be a father then dont get her pregnant but if she ends up pregnant then it is up to her whether you like it or not! If you dont take responsibility for the child then thats up to you too. You have to live with that decision just like a woman who has an abortion has to live with the decision SHE makes!

98% of recipients of lone parents allowance are female, this tells us that the majority of lone parents are parenting alone and are women. you cannot get away from that fact. They are claiming lone parents because the father is contributing nothing. Men can walk away. it will always be women left holding the baby. (well, in 98% of cases)

Brian, some women just do not want to have kids. I know its simplistic but its true. Not every woman is mad to be a mother.

@Ciara please reread your second last post

‘don’t get her pregnant’. What would your response be if I delivered that little gem to single mothers looking for abortions. ‘If you don’t want to be a father (substitute mother here) then don’t get her (remove her) pregnant’. Your logic here is deeply flawed. You say we don’t understand because we’re not women. Another way of looking at this is that you can’t think logically about this because it’s too close too home and your thought process is clouded by your own emotions.

I might be way off with that last bit, I’m not implying that you’re incapable of rational debate or that you’ve had an abortion, just that you seem to have one type of logic for woman and another form for men. You don’t seem to be able to sympathise with the ‘other’ position or put yourself in their shoes at all.

As for the lone parents issue, you’re right I jumped the gun on that without thinking. Apologies.

I do understand that lots of women don’t want to be mothers, just as I understand that some men deeply want to be fathers.

@Ciara
What you’re really saying is that you’re pro-choice, as long as its only the woman who gets to choose!

For the record, I’m also pro-choice, and I don’t recall Sean saying that he wasn’t. I think the potential father’s views should also be considered in coming to a joint decision.

The father also has to grieve if she decides to go through with a termination against his wishes, and as Brian rightly pointed out, if she decides to carry the child to term against his wishes his entire life will also be affected by the decision, not just hers.

Well, if the father just walks away, it’s hardly an issue whether he gets a say re abortion, is it?

And ‘well, in 98% of cases’ is just statistical manipulation – men have set themselves on fire in protest against the unfair structure of custody awards – it’s not about 98% of fathers ‘waking away’, and I think that’s fairly clear.

This is an incredibly delicate, and personal issue, and not one to use as a weapon against men and their generalised behaviour, I think. Again, every instance is different. I think the majority of men do recognise their partner’s rights in this – but that shouldn’t mean they can’t voice their feelings about it, and expect to be heard.

Can I just point out that these women were in a relationship and those babies were very WANTED. This is not about unwanted pregnancy but about the care that should have been provided by the state in what was an awful situation. The men were very involved in the decision making as they should be. My heart breaks for them. There absolutely should be a provision in this country for termination in situations like this. Well done all on being so brave in coming forward.

Of course men can express an opinion and feel upset and angry and all the other emotions involved but the decision to carry or terminate a pregnancy is up to the person who is pregnant! That will always be the woman!

I know this is a very emotive issue, i work in a maternity hospital, I have friends who have had abortions, Im adopted, I know girls with kids whos fathers wanted them to abort but a man cannot put himself in the shoes of one of these women no more than a woman can put herself in the shoes of one of these men. It will always be a decision that women will make regardless of what the father does or does not want.

It would be brilliant if women only got pregnant if they and the father really wanted to but its not like that and as its women who have the wombs, then its a womans right to choose.