That’s a lie .. Labour is not about grandstanding as Clare Daly is, we’re about making law. I’ve had enough with the sort of glorious failures that the hard Left look for, I want to see real change on abortion access through legislation that works and is able to get the consent of parliament. To get the X case legislated for means bringing the conservative parties in the Dáil with us, something Daly does not consider to be important. That’s why her bill failed. We must allow the Expert Group to do its work and report in the next few weeks. Legislation will be based on that report and, as a consequence, will have the support of Fine Gael (and FF, I guess) when it comes to a Dáil vote. We can ONLY get this legislation across the line with FG support and that means allowing the Expert Group to do its work.

Grotesque and dishonest special pleading from Desmond there.

it wouldn’t be a ‘glorious failure’ if labour and others voted in favour. christ, the logic at work here is baffling

@nigel … So, no attempt to debate what I’ve said. Just a crude assertion unsupported by any evidence. A typical hater’s response

@alan … Clare Daly went into this debate knowing her bill would be voted down. She made no serious attempt to garner support either from Labour whose policy is to support the extension of access to abortion in Ireland, or from the one party, FG, whose support is absolutely necessary to get such legislation through the Dáil. That’s the difference between those who think that striking poses is all it takes to win on difficult issues like this, and those of us who can identify parliamentary obstacles and understand what we need to do to remove them. Daly delivered nothing more than headlines, Labour will deliver legislation on X.

Desmond, you’re not really proving any more popular here than your buddies in Government are. The horse may have changed but the rider’s stil very much the same The red thumbs make that point pretty clear. Can I get your ticket please and I’ll be right back with your coat…

So Adrian .. no attempt to debate the substantive issue. Why is that I wonder? Might it be because the point I’m making is a valid and reasoned one. If you think that red thumbs are a way of shutting people out of debate, think again. Last time I checked this was still a democracy.

‘Not on our doorstep’ says the deputies. “Off to Europe with you if you want one of those things”…..After 75% of GPs said that they support limited abortion they still vote against….who are these people that are running our lives ? Roll on some fcuking election quick….

Yes Simon.
This is just unbelievable.
This country and it’s antiquated beliefs and attitudes just won’t change.
It just proves that Ireland is a remote island and many of it’s inhabitants continue an insular lifestyle and mindset.

agreed. this is a really depressing result. just when you think we might be getting somewhere our representatives (and who exaclty are they representing, i have no idea any more) push us two steps backward

Tell the baby that when it’s lying in a bucket.

You mean the embryo. Embryos get aborted, not babies.

Get involved in politics Nuala, unless there are more women like Clare Daly and Joan Collins in there representing women in their constituencies nothing will ever change.

All laws have to come under the constitution which is very limited in regards to abortion. the constitution is decided by the voters in a referendum, not by the politicians. If a law like were to be passed which was in conflict with the constitution it would be challenged straight away. It would seem that Clare Daly was a bit ambitious with her draft legislation. Hopefully it can be ammended and put back before the Dail in a few weeks.

But that isn’t really the issue. If she went away and came back with revised air right proposal it’s would still be knock back. Unfortunately we have a very conservative society when it comes to matters like this.

I doubt it very much. they know it will have to come in on their watch. if she came back with a proposal which covered only the circumstances allowed under the constitution it would be accepted. It was too ambitious.

James Reilly was too busy counting the € for his latest ‘friend’ to rush to AG with anything!

Yep – €164K

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/reilly-hires-another-164k-expert-191059.html

The Haters are back out .. all venom, cynicism and abuse and absolutely no clue whatsoever as to what it takes to effect change in this country.

Desmond, if Labour come up with the proposed legislation well and good, but there is precious little evidence that any government will do that. I hope I’m proven wrong, but I doubt it.

The government is committed to legislating for the X case. O’Reilly stated that in the Dáil yesterday evening. I know people are angry and want action now. Having waited so long for the constitutional rights of Irish women to be vindicated by the Oireachtas it must be heartbreaking to see the same old, ugly debate rearing its head again with the perception of further delay. However, to get this legislation across the line we will need Fine Gael votes. Clare Daly chose to ignore that reality. To get FG support we need to follow the path of the Expert Group. The prize is much bigger than the wait even if it means that some women are forced to travel in the meantime. The alternative, of ignoring the need to gain FG support, would mean kicking this issue further down the road.

20 years wasn’t long enough for Desmond and his party, it seems.

@nigel .. Daly’s bill was always going to fail, because she saw no value in seeking to make the necessary alliances in the Dáil to pass this bill. Labour has made those alliances and will deliver legislation on X. You seem to think that a glorious failure is worth much more than a secure victory. Irish women need legislation on X, not the headlines Daly was chasing.

@Desmond Is that all you have to say? Calling others haters? A case of ad-hom much, methinks. Sometimes the truth hurts. In this case, it stinks as well.

Once again, Tom, no attempt by you to engage on the substantive issue.

You seem to be completely oblivious to what is going on. The legislation was considered to be unconstitutional and open to a challenge. If a load of women would have passed an unconstitutional law then they would have been bad TDs and would have been responsable for the following challenge and strike out of the law.

The actual constitution was voted on by the people of Ireland, not by the men.

I’m disappointed about this too but blaming men for lack of abortion facilities isn’t fair when studies have shown men more liley to be pro-choice and the last two major pro-life protests have been predominantly and exclusively women respectively:

http://www.thejournal.ie/gallery-protesters-oppose-proposed-new-abortion-bill-415721-Apr2012/

http://www.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-youth-defence-anti-abortion-protests-in-dublin-380259-Mar2012/#slide-slideshow8

This issue is a political paradox in the sense that although (in my opinion) pro-choice people outweigh pro-life, if a government announces itself as pro-choice it doesn’t gain too much support from pro-choice groups, but every pro-life advocate in the country will never vote for them again.

Sure Brendan, let’s not get our knickers in a twist over this and point fingers at Irish men, obviously those 109 red dots represent women trapped in male bodies.

Well it’s not productive in any sense. And out of the 20 yes votes, only 5 were women. All I said was that the issue was a political landmine and although I think we should push for this legislation, blaming a no vote on “a load of old men calling the shots” was incredibly ill informed given that the last two pro-life protests were either organised by YOUTH defence, or exclusively women, (see links above).

I don’t know Brendan, I think sometimes it helps to get to the point. Now into the 31st Dail we have a 140 men out of 166 sitting TDs in Dail Eireann, out of the 25 women elected 11 represent the socially conservative FG party and 8 the quasi conservative ILP. What we do not have is a broad spectrum of female political representation in Dail Eireann , so inevitably we have a majority of conservative men making decisions that profoundly effect the lives of every woman in this country.

the same conservative Fine Gael government that’s ahead of the European curve on proposing EU legislation? Which party would you consider liberal?

The gender ratio makes no odds, political parties and TDs are purely vote hunters. The only thing stopping them announcing themselves as pro-choice is the fact that it’s not as if the pro-choice crowd are going to love them forever, but the pro-life crowd will probably vow never to vote for them again. In order to male progress here we need to stop harping on about the demographic of the Dail and let them know that pro-choice advocates are as serious about this as the pro-life.

Correction above: I meant gay marriage legislation, not EU legislation.

Clare Daly was running ahead of herself, for what reasons she alone can answer but I can hazard a guess or two. The requirement of the ECHR is for the State to legislate for the X case. This was always going to be difficult in this country given our history with abortion debates and is exemplified by the scandalous delay of 20 years in legislating in this area. However, to succeed in legislating for X we have to bring the conservative parties with us. They, and especially FG, have the votes to scupper such legislation. Their support is being secured by the route of the Expert Group. It will report in the next few weeks and the legislaiton to be presented to the Oireachtas will be based on it. In that way, FG will mandate its TDs to support a government bill to provide for the X case.

By the way, it’s not EU laws that concern us here, but treaty law set by the Council of Europe, specifically the European Convention on Human Rights.

Was Clare Daly really running ahead of herself, or is this just a case of the spiteful “not invented here” syndrome on the part of Labour?

Desmond O’Toole.

Cheers for your post and some clarification.
We might have to differ on various points – but as we presently have no way to change the dreadfully slow pace which various governments have allowed this to drag out, all we can do is hope they get their act together for once.

After all – its not before time!

this gov is def not living in fear of the church, they have proved that.

In Ireland our politicians debate nothing without first entering into consultation with the catholic church and/or its members, otherwise known as the Irish electorate.

So you’re suggesting the government should make unilateral decisions across the board, and not put any questions to the (ignorant, catholic and probably evil) people? Perhaps the population should not be allowed to vote either???

Well, you’ve more faith in politicians than I do!

You haven’t been keeping up with current affairs have you, when was the last time your beloved leaders consulted the Irish electorate about anything. Does Sean Sherlock ring a bell? Phil Hogan perhaps? The only reason they’ll consult their constituents on this particular issue is simply because their political life depends on it. Parish pump lobbyists dictate policy here in the land of make believe where such matters are concerned. If it was not presented as a private members bill the subject would never have seen the light of day. Do you think they sat so long on that supreme court ruling trying to hatch eggs?

You obviously missed the sight of them running for the hills today at the thought of fielding calls from religious zealots, however they froth at the mouth when given the opportunity to vote on a bill to reduce social welfare entitlements to single parents.

We Irish are not ignorant, we’ve simply become lazy, ambivalent and spineless, not unlike our politicians.

Fianna Fail were explicitly against the bill, while hypocritical Labour TDs were lining up to cry crocodile tears about how sad they were not to be able to vote for something which is allegedly their party policy. Therefore, there’s a purpose to telling Labour TDs to put up or shut up, while there isn’t a purpose to telling FFers the same.

To get the X case legislated for means bringing the conservative parties in the Dáil with us, something Daly does not consider to be important. That’s why her bill failed. She prefers grandstanding over actually making real law. We must allow the Expert Group to do its work and report in the next few weeks. Legislation will be based on that report and, as a consequence, will have the support of Fine Gael (and FF, I guess) when it comes to a Dáil vote. We can ONLY get this legislation across the line with FG support and that means allowing the Expert Group to do its work. That’s what Labour is committed to … it’s the difference between politicians, especially from the Trotskyite Left, who think it is enough just to protest, and those of us who understand what it takes to deliver real legislative change in this area.

Hypocritical Labour TDs: “Delivering real legislative change” by voting against real legislative change.

Actually, I’m being unfair. Labour have indeed delivered “real change” when it comes to raising the retirement age, introducing regressive taxes and shafting single parents.

@nigel … Again, no attempt from you to debate the actual issue, just the usual hater bile.

@Desmond When your party has failed to deliver on one single pre-election promise, are you surprised that people hate Labour? When, as supposedly left-wing party, Labour has participated in the foisting of a fascist economic system on this country, are you still wondering why you are hated? The Labour TDs should enjoy their time in the limelight, because they are going the way of the equally despicable Greens come the next election.

So Tom … another hater who makes absolutely no attempt to engage in reasoned debate on the substantive issue. Incidentally, you need to look up the meaning of the word ‘fascist’.

@Desmond Just looked over definition of fascism. The acts of the government so far pretty much some up that it is direction the Ireland, nay most capitalist countries are heading. Not by race or religion, but by great wealth of a small few and the conservative views of this government. The Abortion Bill may not be perfect, but its definitely a big step in the right direction. The majority wants it passed and yet FF, FG, Labour vote against it. I think people have a good reason to feel anger and distrust towards them.

I’m sorry, Ferguson, but if you think you are living in a fascist state or that the government are fascists then you either genuinely have no comprehension of what the word actually means or you’re trolling.

@desmond My apoligies. Allow me to rephrase good sir. I meant afew aspects of fascism. I meant like the way that the government is attacking the living standerds of the lowest payed reminds how for example the fascists in italy percecuted the jews and how now people are being threatened to be brought to court for not paying something like the household tax (Alot of which cant afford it). As I said its not superiority of race or religion. It is of how much money we have. Apperently if we target the rich, they leave the country. So why not target the poor. its the unequality between the rich and the poor that i’m most disgusted about. And the current government are making things worst by paying a debt that is NOT ours to pay. It is a huge tranfer of money to the rich. Also I don’t troll………………………………………….much…………..another thing…………..I think i’m ranting on the wrong article. Oh well ^_^!

I know, and for some their reasoning capacity never developed beyond fetal stage.

This isn’t about abortions happening as a form of contraception this is about serious flaws in the current system, sure you can argue a foetus is a life but at what cost?

What if its rape or incest should that life be allowing at the cost of the massive emotional issues it would cause the mother?
What if the mother will die at birth, should the life be allowed at the cost of the mothers?

Its not as black and white as you try and suggest and you are well aware of that, to outlaw abortion full stop is wrong and completely ignores the rights of the mother.

Barry – I agree it’s not as b/w as “live or die”. There are certain medical procedures which must be undertaken to save a woman’s life, and an unborn child may get hurt or die from the effects of such procedures. But pointed, purposeful abortion, extermination, killing, call it as it really is, where the mother’s life is not at risk? That is barbaric. Life is precious and we only get one shot at it in this world. To deny a child’s right to life is an abomination.

@Kieran, if the right to life trumps a parents right to bodily autonomy, then should I have the right to legally force my mother to donate a liver or a pint of blood or bone marrow? Sure donating a liver is a little risky, as is pregnancy, but donating blood and bone marrow are almost completely risk free. So do I have the right to legally force my mother to donate blood, liver or bone marrow?

If not then why did I have the right to force my mom to carry me for 9 months and undergo a pretty difficult medical procedure when she gave birth to me, when I don’t have the right to even force her to donate a drop of blood. When did I lose my control over her bodily autonomy and by what right did I have it in the first place?

John – What has transplant material you might need got to do with an infant’s right to live unmolested in his mother’s womb? What clear moral equivalence can you make out of your point?

@Kieran, The position for pro-life crowd is pretty much that a women shouldn’t be allowed to make a decision that would end the life of her fetus. That a mother doesn’t have bodily autonomy if exercising it will end the life of her child. If I had lymphoma, for example, I might require full body irradiation and then require a transplant of bone marrow, which requires a pretty exact match in order to avoid graft versus host, usually achieved by taking bone marrow from a next of kin, in order to live. So it’s possible that my life is dependant on my mother making the choice to donate bone marrow, which apart from a little bit of time and positioning is the exactly same issue as those facing a fetus.

I hope that explains the equivalence, so I’d appreciate an answer.

‘Arent you glad your mother decided to have you?’ Seriously? Is that the best you can come up with?
If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle but she doesnt so she isnt.

Get a grip man!
I’ll tell you who gets to make the decision, the woman with the womb, thats who!

John – If a pregnant woman needs extreme treatment, it is justifiable (in my opinion) to undertake the deadly risk to the foetus that such treatment might entail. There’s no point in losing both lives. An unintended consequence may be loss of the child’s life. However I cannot equate purposeful killing of the child with your first scenario – you supposing your mother “owes” you transplant material. To be truthful, I still don’t really understand your point on the connection between a grown, sentient man and a dependent, helpless baby.

Ciara – sorry to hear about your aunt and her balls. What a dilemma you must face during family visits.
You have a womb. You used live in one of those things. A lot safer, it was, the one you were in, than the one your children will live in one day.

So in ‘your’ opinion, a woman should be forced to remain pregnant during, for example chemo or a procedure that demands her cervix, ovaries or uterus is removed? Well arent you kind and considerate!
Thanks very much! Im sure woman all over ireland will be delighted ot know that you would ‘allow’ them this instead of ‘allowing’ them to make a decision as to whether or not they want to go ahead with a pregnancy that they want terminated.
Im sure my aunts balls are bigger than yours because if you had any youd defend the rights of the women in your life to decide whats right for them.

@Kieran, the point is to illustrate that the pro-life movement aren’t asking for the rights we afford to living sentient people be afforded to fetuses, or even embryos. They are asking for rights that we do not, and should not, afford to people, to violate the right to bodily autonomy of others, be given, to put it bluntly, to a bunch of cells without even a brain stem simply on the grounds that it will develop one in the future. Yet you couldn’t endorse, as well you shouldn’t, the same rights being given to people who have sentience now. Your answer wasn’t even in the same ballpark as the question.

@Kieran, and that’s not even the worst of it. In this country we are willing to violate the woman’s right to bodily integrity even if the fetus isn’t viable, and force her to either travel to England to get abortion services at their own expense (which probably means there is no counselling services for them to avail of either, though the pro-life movement do love to trot out out depressed women who got abortions are) or alternatively carry non-viable fetuses to term.

And wot if it is a child that is pregnant? There should always be a choice

Absolutely… but in the case of a ban on abortion, you are protecting life by forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy, arguably the most severe and impactful bodily processes a human being can undergo. You are forcing her to undergo the physical transformation and accompanying discomfort, the hormonal changes and many practical restrictions and ultimately to go through the rigours of labour AGAINST HER WILL. Consider this for a moment. Should life be protected at all costs, in all circumstances, even it means massively infringing on another life?

Yes, pregnancy is a wonderful gift that should be cherished. But it should be cherished through gratitude to those women who freely decide to give themselves to it, and not by forcing it on those who decide not to.

Ok guys, rape victims should always have the option of abortion, end of. Forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy, one word “contraception”, I had my son 7 years ago, i didnt want another, I used contraception and guess what, I am not pregnant. This is not the 1950s. Contraception is falling of the shelves, sex is out in the open there is no excuse for an unwanted pregnancy, as my mother always said, accident dont happen they are caused.

Marcella, that’s easy for you to say, but don’t be so quick to judge others. A great many factors can lead to an unwanted pregnancy… we’re all human and particularly when we’re young and reckless, accidents do happen. Sexuality brings with it an enormous responsibility and yes, not every woman and man out there (I’m told it takes two) lives up to that. But is that their fault alone, or should we as a society take up some of the blame as well, in that we routinely fail to equip our children with the knowledge and confidence to handle their sexuality responsibly.

And regardless of whether the unwanted pregnancy is the result of rape or simple carelessness, if the woman in question does not wish to continue the pregnancy, than a ban on abortion is always tantamount to forcing it on her.

Also, I’m not so sure if contraception is “falling off the shelves”. Condoms are more expensive than cigarettes, and to get the pill prescribed is not the easiest thing in the world either. Contraception should be much more freely accessible.

Robin with all due respect, condoms and the pill, this is 2012, I know 17 years old girls who have the implants, who get the injection 4 times a year, contraception is widely available, and these girls use these options because the pill or condom can fail and they do not want to get pregnant yet. And yes there are factors involved in young girls and boys getting pregnant early but it is most certainly not because of ignorance, my 14 year old daughter knows more about sexual education than I did at her age. The only blame society has is parents who wont allow their kids to use contraception because it “encourages them to be sexually active”. Oh and by the way I dont know what part of Ireland you are from but I have never heard of the pill being refused by any doctor. Oh and why is it easy for me to say, what makes me so different from the women of Ireland. I went on the pill as a teenager (I didnt want a baby), I had my children when I chose and now I am on contraception because I dont want more. What is so special about me.

You are reducing everything to your own personal experience. *You* had free access to contraception, *you* were responsible enough, *your* daughter is savvy about sexual health, in short, *you* never had need for an abortion, so why should anybody else? That’s good for you, but your experience might not match other people’s experiences.

What I’m saying though is that, ultimately, the reasons behind an unwanted pregnancy should not determine whether or not abortion is available. If a woman wishes to terminate the pregnancy, that wish must be respected, regardless of her motivation, because anything else would amount to a denial of her most fundamental bodily integrity. It’s HER body, and her body is her property, not the property of state or society. Likewise, the unborn child belongs to her, it does not belong to state or society. We have no business telling someone what to do with their womb.

You have dismissed the phrasing of “forcing a woman to continue with her pregnancy”, but please tell me how else to describe a situation where a woman is pregnant against her wish and finds herself compelled by law and culture to either remain pregnant.

Thanks James. The ECHR ruling requires the Irish State to give legislative effect to the constitutional right of women in Ireland to an abortion in the specific and limited circumstances of the Supreme Court judgements. The failing in the Irish State’s position was that Irish citizens possessed a constitutional right, but no way to vindicate it in law other than individual appeal to the SC any time a woman chose a termination. The ECHR considered that avenue to be utterly inadequate as a way of women exercising their constitutional rights, hence it’s judgement that the Irish State must give legislative force to X.

Evelyn I really hope you never find yourself pregnant as a result of rape or pregnant with a baby that has no chance of survival. There is nothing pro-woman about forcing women to have babies they don’t want or make the journey to another country to have an abortion. There is nothing pro-woman about the pathetic support for women who have taken that journey – about 5000 every year.

Our TD’s had a chance today to do something really progressive but backed down like the cowards they are.

Are you drunk or just naive?

@evelyn why is ireland the ‘safest place’ ? think about it …. the reason it looks like the safest place is because everybody getting an abortion has to travel outside…..

Women deserve choice, not blank platitudes that fail to recognise the reality of the situation.

Safest ??? Safe is not giving birth in a toilet in the national maternity hospital ! Believe me I know more woman who have done that !

@Evelyn: you do know that in countries where abortion is allowed they don’t force abortions on people?

“Ireland is the safest place in the world to be pregnant or give birth”? Such a stupid comment. Also, factually incorrect as Sweden for example. which has legal abortion, has a lower rate of death for both mother and child.

Safe, legal abortion like they have in the UK is also safe for women unlike the situation many women without the funds to travel find themselves in here.
Many buy drugs over the internet with no idea how safe they are, some probably have back street abortions which can cause huge risks. You don’t have to like the idea of abortion but hiding your head in the sand and pretending it doesn’t happen isn’t going to make the problem go away.

Women deserve the right to choose!

Oh get lost, if you don’t want to have an abortion then just dont have one, but don’t tell every other Irish female (woman, teenager, child, rape victim) that they shouldn’t have one, women should have the choice I mean who are you to preach at them?

Evelyn, tell that to the women who suffered at the hands of utter imbeciles in the Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. I’m sure they’d love to debate it with you.

the safest place to give birth? thats because all of the difficult cases that could end up putting the mothers life at risk are dealt with abroad!

I work in healthcare in a maternity hospital so get your facts correct.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re on about.