The gardai, revenue and most of the public already knew about it. They can’t prosecute pimps outside the country or the customers. That’s why ruhama want the law changed.

I might be wrong on this but as far as I know it is not illegal for two consenting adults to exchange money for sexual services. It is against the law to solicit for sexual services. I do stand open to correction on this so perhaps someone with a legal background might clear this area up for us.

Brian you are correct. It is legal to pay for sex. However, it is illegal to solicit sex in a public place or advertise sexual services. It is also illegal for a third party to profit from the sale of sex or to purchase sex from somebody you know has been trafficked.

Lots of nuances so it’s confusing.

Basically, if it is a one-on-one exchange of sex and money, it is not illegal. That is why many of the women in last night’s programme advertise as independent escorts (even though they are not).

Hope that clears it up. Sorry if I’m rambling a bit.

Sinead

No that clarifies it for me a bit anyway Sinead.

I have not watched the program yet so not entirely sure how this industry operates.

Seems it can be taken out of the hands of the criminals easily if we took the right steps

Would definitely recommend catching the programme on the RTE Player (included a link above). Great piece of investigative journalism.

Lots more still to do though…

Itchy Brain
That is the whole problem . The women are prostituting against their wills . They are brought under false promises of decent jobs.They are raped ,beaten and passports taken. They are told that their families at home will be in danger if they do not comply .
It then becomes like Stockholm Syndrome ,where they protect their captors out of fear ….
Very dangerous and complicated .

Yeah! a lot of them with a religious agenda! Legalise it, regulate it, ensure health checks are carried out on the women involved and of course tax it. Prostitution has been around for thousands of years and it’s not going to go away just because the nuns who run Ruhama want it to. Making it illegal for men to buy sex will only send it even more underground and make it worse for many of the women who are involved, also bear in mind not all women are ‘forced’ into it, many see it as a way to earn big bucks fast and like it or not that is a fact! Ireland needs to look to progressive countries where they have tried new ways to deal with it, pandering to a plethora of religious and feminist groups with their own agendas is not going to stop prostitution.

Again and again this legalise it nonsense.

Look at what’s happening in the Netherlands Ed, and get back to us.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2009/02/04/2003435180

And I’m not religious nor a feminist, before you go down that road.

It always amuses me the way labels like “progressive” and “religious” and “feminist” are thrown around to help marginalise opponents or to bolster someone’s post with meaningless rhetoric.

Andrew – serious question, do you actually believe prostitution can be stamped out? Really?

If your answer is no, then the ONLY solution to the problems with prostitution are to make it legal, monitor it, tax it and give the workers all the protection workers in other industries are afforded.

Ed
I doubt there are very many 18 to 21 year olds who are happy to be buggered , raped , beaten up for 50 quid!!
And Im not a feminist btw . The reality is most of the women are very young and have no choice. Most of the perverts that use these escort services are looking for very young girls not mature women who choose to do this for the “big bucks !!??” .

@ CPM

We might not be able to stop it entirely as we enforce it now, but I think you will see, and the evidence seems to back this up, that if we criminalize the paying for sex, rather than the selling, and expose those that are caught buying it, there will be a very significant fall off in the numbers of punters.

Also, by shifting the criminality away from the prostitutes and onto the punters, the people involved in selling themselves, will have no fear of the justice system, and falling foul of it. In that way, they will have far greater protection than they do now.

Sex, being a fundamental part of a person’s identity, is not a commodity. People need to get that through their heads.

Regards,
Andrew

@Andrew

How do you propose catching these punters, how would you gather the evidence to secure a conviction? Everything is done over the internet and mobile phone, and the transaction is completed in person in a private apartment behind a locked door.

Would you propose bugging suspected escorts and punters homes and phones?

Ed
The nuns in Ruhama are not sitting in judgement of these women . They are incredibly
understanding and want to help these women to follow there own lives. The women ( hardly women 18 to 21 yr olds) are prostitutes because this big brute of a pimp drives them from location to location to satisfy ”punters” requirements.
True that not all women are forced into it , but most are through economic conditions , trying to keep a home together, drug abuse, and like we saw those girls last night . These guys (pimps) are dangerous . They do not mess around.You can be sure that those girls have been beaten into submission , their families lives threatened, to get them to work .
i do not see anything progressive about legalising prostitution .

@ CPM

A ridiculous assertion CPM.

As was evidenced by the Limerick case before Christmas, if the powers that be choose to make life awkward for the potential punter, they certainly can.

How many ‘honest, decent, family men’ will be so quick to call up their local brothel if they’re not sure that it’s a police sting? And the Guards have busted known brothel’s previously too.

But by your logic, if we can’t stop murders either we should be giving up on that prohibition too…Nonsense.

Regards,
Andrew

@Andrew – it wasn’t an assertion, it was a question, one you’re clearly unable to answer.

Your solution – the increased criminalisation of the industry, will not work. The only thing it will succeed in doing is, driving the whole industry further underground, pushing the minority in that industry who actually need help, further away from that help.

“As was evidenced by the Limerick case before Christmas, if the powers that be choose to make life awkward for the potential punter, they certainly can.”

Eh, have a read of this http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/prostitutes_return_to_limerick_city_despite_garda_crack_down_1_3458229

@ CPM.

I can’t really have a discussion with you if you only choose to acknowledge some of what I write.

I made it clear that we should criminalize the punter, and not the prostitute. I would have no problem with decriminalizing the sale of sex itself, or at least not prosecuting it, if it means that prostitutes need not fear getting on the wrong side of the law.

And at the end of the article from the Limerick Leader, it can be clearly seen that the Guards came back and did their job to the satisfaction of the local community. And one wonders how many of the men outed before Christmas even contemplated visiting those new prostitutes referenced? Not many, I would venture.

If you’re so keen on prostitution, why aren’t you out doing it yourself?

Regards,
Andrew

PS How much more underground prostitution get, really? Surely if it keeps going underground as you insist it will, people won’t be able to find it, and we’ll have an end to prostitution? Your assertions make no sense.

“If you’re so keen on prostitution, why aren’t you out doing it yourself?”

Ah bless, it was only a matter of time wasn’t it.

“And at the end of the article from the Limerick Leader, it can be clearly seen that the Guards came back and did their job to the satisfaction of the local community.”

That’s my whole point, despite an operation you heralded as a success, the Gardai are, a few weeks later, out trying to solve the same problem.

*facepalm.jpg*

Andrew and CPM
I read that Limerick leader article and I saw the TV programme where the area was being plagued with prostitution…. The Gardai shifted it away and now it is back. Fighting crime is a 24 hr job, and quite often a battle of wills .
So the pimp sends in more women ,this time rougher and tougher,probably in fear of their lives from the pimp, These guys are ruthless and dangerous .It is a money making racket. Very few prostitutes would ever choose this as a career!

AlMar: your comments ‘amuse’ me greatly, your forever defending the catholic church with it’s pedophile priests and the cover up bishops then on the other hand you accuse those of us whose opinions clash with your conservative and religiously slanted views of posting ‘meaningless rhetoric” maybe if all prostitutes wore vestments, sang hymns and ate bits of wafer you would support prostitution and make excuses for them too! Are you sure your not David Quinn in disguise? or are you a priest maybe?

On the other hand Eileen, perhaps the women who have “plagued” (such tender compassion for the vulnerable in that word) that particular part of Limerick for 25 years got tired of having the livelihoods they depend upon taken away to gratify people far more fortunate than themselves and decided that, with nothing left to lose, they would fight back for a change?

Most street prostitute are independent, it’s down to logistics. It is almost impossible for a pimp or trafficker to control women out on the streets and much easier behind closed doors…I would have thought common sense would tell anybody that?

The men arrested in Limerick were court ordered to pay €470 to a local affiliate of Ruhama – Doras Luimini…and the far greater number of men arrested in Dublin were court ordered to pay up to €300 each to Ruhama…

Little wonder the arrests were so popular with both organisations.

@Andrew did you read the article … go ahead and check the paper published in the american journal of epidemiology and you will see that the newspaper have twisted because they reported women who haven’t used safety precautions and not much aware has gone through during 1970’s to till 2000. You would also see that the death on average of 34 is due to the fact the poor medical care, lack of cures for many diseases back in 1970 and also lack of cures still many diseases till now. Stop using twisted articles to make your twisted point. Go and read the paper and I am also posting the link for that paper … http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/159/8/778.full.pdf+html?sid=78105860-80ff-4896-a7f0-0450d5d9044d

@Andrew Eager

Also about the German-Turkish brother I could not find any such news. So stop trying to use twisted articles. Before saying something try to check the sources and validate the methods they have used in coming up with the statistics. Even the statistics in the paper is not exactly correct.

Yup. States have been trying to prevent prostution without success since time began. Legalise it and cut out the pimps and provide safe conditions for those involved.

Sounds sensible, but take a look at the Dutch/German experience and get back to us.

Here’s a starter: http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2009/02/04/2003435180

Regards,
Andrew

Kerry – States have been trying to prevent all crimes without success since time began. But if we just gave up, where would we be?
We will always have crime and corruption, but that is no reason for capitulating in the face of evil.

TBH I’m not to concerned if consenting adults wish to engage in sex for money. The key is to try ensuring that it is consentual. By making prostitution illigal all we do is drive it further underground and make it less safe for those who want to engage in it.

Kerry
Did you watch the documentary last evening ? If you did you would hardly say the women were consenting adults. True there was no mention of rape , but the pimp was the one in charge not the woman . These girls were no older than and were 18 ,from foreign lands , with promises of a better life …..

@ Eileen I didn’t claim for 1 minute that those shown last night were consulting adults. What I’m saying is that if we legalise prostitution then hopefully it would allow the Gardai to consentrate on the human trafficing side of prostitution and remove pimps etc out of the equation.

The pimps have women so terrified that the women themselves protect the pimps ..
.A bit like Stockholm Syndrome. Legallising something that so many do against their will
is hardly progressive .

The “Nuns in Ruhama” are the same congregations that were still running Magdelene Laundries for 7 years after they founded Ruhama. A significant number of those “48 organisations” are closely affiliated with the same orders.

The Magdelene Laundries were, in effect, state sponsored human trafficking in themselves, yet the two orders that control Ruhama (Good Shepherd and Sisters of Charity) refuse to acknowledge and apologise for that to this day, let alone compensate any of the victims.

The whole “Turn off the Red Light” campaign is full of factual anomalies and heavily manipulated statistics and has been from the start.

The majority of women in prostitution refuse to engage with Ruhama voluntarily at all. I have been told that in some areas women, on arrest, are being offered a choice between engaging with Ruhama and being charged which is absolutely appalling.

I have personally been present on several occasions where representatives of Ruhama have promised women in prostitution that they would never support, let alone initiate legislation that would negatibely impact on their work…

Where are those promises now?

This isn’t about helping or supporting anyone in prostitution, it is about NGO politics, power, influence and ambition. Ruhama already get 700k a year in direct government funding, most of which goes on salaries.

If this law passes Ruhama, and some affiliates, will be in a far more powerful position to sustain and even increase their funding stream. In truth they are just playing political games with the lives of women they know to be desperate already. They are lying to them, lying about them and placing their lives and the lives of their families at significant risk…and they simply do not care…

…they don’t have to, because they know that even when they are not to exhausted and demoralised to challenge them the women are just to afraid of the stigma to themselves and their families to risk identifying themselves…

They are sitting ducks, so 48 NGOs have got together to exploit them.

Eileen Lang
” The majority of women in prostitution refuse to engage with Ruhama voluntarily at all. I have been told that in some areas women, on arrest, are being offered a choice between engaging with Ruhama and being charged which is absolutely appalling.”
This statement ^ is completely untrue.

What are you trying to claim is untrue Eileen?

*That it is appalling to pressure women into engaging with an organisation they want nothing to do with?
*That intelligent women refuse to engage with an organisation that consistently lies to them, lies about them, usurps their voices, doesn’t even have enough respect for them to recognise that they are adults, able to evaluate their own situations effectively, make their own decisions and that they would not be selling sex unless they had a very good reason AND somehow manages to get €700k a year from the state to do it?
*That gardai are offering women a choice between Ruhama and conviction (which fact has even appeared in the media at this stage)?

I think you probably need to go and get your facts straight.

Eileen Lang
If some one is found soliciting and do not speak out against their pimp
then what can the gardai do except prosecute. It is called give and take .
You are not naieve or coy , you know the rules. you refuse help ,you refuse to give information, you refuse protection, yet you criticise the gardai then for doing their job.You can not have it every way. People who have no real idea of what the life of a prostitute is ,are trying to understand and you just slag them off . Don’t try to put words into my mouth .either . If prostitutes are such ”intelligent women” why are they being moved around the country like chattels .

Eileen, you genuinely do not seem to have a clue what you are talking about either in terms of prostitution or the law (including, but not limited to the 1993 sexual offences act ( http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/index.html ).

Most prostitutes are *NOT* “being moved around the country like chattels”. Some move themselves around because it improves their earnings, MANY women work some distance from where they live to avoid the stigma that could otherwise attach to them or their children, and even, simply, running into men they know socially.

A prostitute can only be charged with an offence if she is soliciting or loitering, an intrinsic part of street prostitution that is still (even by Ruhama’s figures) the province of independent prostitutes who have no pimp., The gardai are fully aware of this.

As a general rule of thumb, if an organisation is offering real help for somebody’s problems they tend to choose, voluntarily to go to that organisation, they do not have to be coerced with threats of arrest! When they do it is time to face the fact there is something TERRIBLY wrong with the organisation (as well as the judgement of the Gardai involved).

I am fairly sure that there is no legitimate situation in which a prostitute could, let alone should, be charged with any offence, just for refusing to name a pimp (especially if she does not have one), and I have never heard of any situation in which the Gardai have ever attempted to do this.

There is actually no legitmate excuse for offering any prostitute the choice between going to Ruhama or being charged (which I see you now acknowledge as happening). Ruhama *claim* they help the women, most of the women (understandably enough) do not agree with that, with good reason.

I would certainly not go to Ruhama, even in a life threatening situation, not as a matter of principle but because I know that if I did they would do me far more harm than good.

There is a lot more to “helping” people than just claiming to, to get support, donations and government funding, you know.

During the period of effective decriminalisation between 1982 and 1993 with not threat of arrest and no coercion, the women had an excellent relationship with the Gardai and willingly co-operated in fighting pimping and organised crime, not just because they tend to be ordinary people, not criminals, but also because they have reason to hate and fear those things more than anyone else…

With the 1993 act the women and the gardai were pitted against each other instead, and the pimps took over in droves, followed by a few traffickers.

Eileen Lang
OK i bow to your superior knowledge on prostitution in Ireland .
However my last point on this will be —
Did you watch the programme? If you did you would have seen these young
girls being moved from apartment to apartment ,by yer man Anton .So your rebuke to me ”Most prostitutes are *NOT* “being moved around the country like chattels” is not true . We were talking about the programme .

Not sure where you are coming from with that Eileen…there are at least 1000 prostitutes in Ireland, and 3 would be a very long way from “most”…

…but proposed changes in the law would have a devastating effect on *ALL* the prostitutes in Ireland…that does not seem even slightly fair or justified.

We have some very severe laws against trafficking already…if we decriminalise prostitution and have the full trust and co-operation of the real independent prostitutes those laws will become ridiculously easy to enforce fully…and there would be no more trafficking, and very little pimping again…

That is already proven in an Irish context and guaranteed.

The only reason for the 1993 act that drove so many women into the clutches of the pimps were public order issues due to the recession of the early 90s…put simply, too many women were suddenly desperate enough to come out onto the streets to protect their families, and the wealthy residents of D4 did not like it…

The problem could have been solved far better, without causing the cruel chaos of organised pimping the 1993 act did, by simply zoning prostitution to non-residential areas and/or areas that needed extra security at night.

We have the choice, we can do that now, second time around, or we can can criminalise prostitution even more, as suggested, and push it more firmly underground and into the hands of organised crime.

Because these women are being most likely abused or trafficked and have no choice!!

Legalisation has established even more sex trafficking/forced prostitution in Holland, not less, so bad idea. Were now combatting an epidemic of sex traffcking.

Wendy, pimping was almost unheard of in Ireland during the period of decriminalisation between 1982 and 1993.

After recriminalisation in 1993 pimping and the involvement of organised crime boomed dramatically.

Trafficking was not even suspected to exist here until 2009. There has still not been one, single proven case.

Of course, full legalisation and decriminalisation are two very different approaches and may have markedly different effects for that reason.

I agree Chris.

Prostitution is morally wrong and should be outlawed in its entirety. It’s continued growth and expansion is another symptom of the breakdown in the fabric of our society. Those who engage in this behaviour should be outed.

Dave
I think that was the idea of the programme , name and shame ! Theses websites advertise these girls as indepdant and willing sex workers , whereas most are not and are exploited.

Prohibition, naming and shaming, the same tactic they use for drugs and probably the main reason you never smell a joint on the bus or the luas, and you never see prostitutes out and about. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, we know what Einstein is supposed to have said about that. It’s going to happen, you have to make the situation less distasteful because you can’t get rid of it entirely. Making things illegal doesn’t stop them, you have to make it easier to do it legally to drive criminals out of a market and there’s always going to be a market for vice.

Prostitution should not be legallised . It is rarely a career choice .
How can this be legalized ,in fairness who would use the ‘services’ of these girls
knowing that it was against their will,what kind of person does this?
name and shame the ”punters” and long sentences for the pimps .
The girls then should get the help they need to regain their lives,unless they are
madames in which case they should get the same as the pimps.

What a totally disjointed reply but hey i’lll do my best to deal with it. How? Easily. Who would want to do that? Well, quite a few people seem to choose it, whatever the circumstances of that choice, it’s not for me but I don’t want to tell others what to do unless it affects innocent bystanders. Who would use the services of these girls knowing they were slaves? They do now, some people get off on that, the point is there would be fewer slaves in the industry if it was easier to go to a legit clean registered premises.

Paul
To be honest , I can not see what was wrong with my reply
that upset you so much . I did not think I was being judged on my writing abilities ….
But do you know what , I do not judge any woman who is a prostitute . Especially
those on last night’s show.THey should be helped,if possible.

I judge the men who use them. !

Making it fully legal, like in Holland, has established a basis for even more sex trafficking, not less, which was one of the aims of making it legal. Currently about between 60 and 80% of prostitutes have been sex trafficked. So no legalisation is not the answer.

Wendy, pimping was almost unheard of in Ireland during the period of decriminalisation between 1982 and 1993.

After recriminalisation in 1993 pimping and the involvement of organised crime boomed dramatically.

Trafficking was not even suspected to exist here until 2009. There has still not been one, single proven case.

You are correct, in Holland, where pristitution pimping and buying is legal for 11 years now, sex trafficking has only gone up *because* of legalising prostitution, so its a bad idea. Criminalize buyers and pims is the best.

Wendy, pimping was almost unheard of in Ireland during the period of decriminalisation between 1982 and 1993.

After recriminalisation in 1993 pimping and the involvement of organised crime boomed dramatically.

Trafficking was not even suspected to exist here until 2009. There has still not been one, single proven case.

Of course, full legalisation and decriminalisation are two very different approaches and may have markedly different effects for that reason.

All crminalising buyers does is takje away the income the women need to survive, that doesn’t seem a very caring, or helpful thing to do at all…in fact it seems pretty monsterous to me.

If a woman is doing that job and giving the money to a pimp…she is a bigger fool…is ur body for godsake..why dont u tell the pimp to sell his body..

Are you good looking?

Why will u work all week and give ur wages back to ur employer….u want to sell ur body u dont need a pimp…this is ireland not some 3 world country….

Did you even watch the programme Mensah?!Most of these women were tricked into coming here with the promise of a job in the hospitality industry and a better life but were instead imprisoned in apartments and forced to have sex with up to 6/7 men a day.

[seriouscat.jpg]

Hi,

It is. This was originally meant to air under Primetime Investigates but was broadcast during the ordinary Prime Time slot.

Sinead

yes they have been, it was a special one off, the journal covered it in a piece last week

Ok thanks. So they’re not allowed to broadcast as Primetime Investigates, so they get it in under the radar on Primetime instead? Is this right? (Obviously the subject matter is not in question here, just the means by which it sidestepped due process).

I do believe that it was a once off

Ok, maybe as a once off we should let de-registered surgeons carry out an operation then too? Sorry, but it’s taking liberties with a process intended to protect society from improper professional practice. Why have these processes if we only intend to flout them?

Burned Toast – what the hell are you talking about?

‘sidestepped due process’

It’s a TV program. RTE took their own decision to suspend the programs branded as ‘Prime Time Investigates’ – that doesn’t mean they suspend all investigative journalism and reporting of such by the Prime Time team.

Sorry 007. Should’ve known better than to draw your wrath upon me. I’ll be expecting your suave sophisticated presence any day now to neutralise me.

Eileen, the women shown on the program, who are a small minority would not be here, in prostitution if it were decriminalised, because the independent women would be in a strong enough position to refuse to let anyone get away with that, and whatever you can hide from the Gardai, you would never be able to hide from the women. Because they are criminalised and underground they cannot feel comfortable or safe working with the Gardai any more…and the Gardai are pretty hostile to them too (you have to psych yourself up to hunt someone when you know they are pretty desperate and not doing any real harm, it’s only human nature).

The 1993 law PREVENTS women on the streets from even being able to choose the men safely. If they take their time and consider they risk arrest…that is the crazy way the law works…if the organisations have their way and buying sex is criminalised the only men they will have to choose from will be the “thrill seeking” kind who tend to be the most dangerous…

These laws are not just “a bad idea” they are, in their real effects, absolutely crazy. Placing prostitutes at FAR greater risk than they need to be from bad clients, pimps and traffickers and crippling them in terms of defending themselves. During decriminalisation the squad cars would atually come down to the red light districts and pass warnings about any attack or anyone likely to be dangerous.

Back to the women in the documentary…those who were genuinely trafficked against their will (and I am far from convinced they all were, there was a lot of hyping going on). If they were prevented from being here, for ANY reason, in any way…the traffickers would only take them somewhere else instead.

Many of the others are illegal immigrants, and if they ask for help they only get sent back to god knows what they escaped from in the first place…in many cases that could easily be a life threatening situation. None of it is that simple, some people really are just doomed whatever they, or we, do, and I think that means we should leave them in peace with any chance they can find to change that…but what *IS* simple is that the 1000 or so women who have no realistic choice by sell sex in Ireland DO NOT DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED for the crimes of a couple of men and a lot of dishonest, agenda driven hype…

…and thank you for opening your mind a little, that is hard to do…

I do, written by Dave Mullins who used to be the vice journalist on the Sunday World…I knew most of those involved very well indeed and I am afraid it was grossly exaggerated and sensationalised to the hilt.

The Kasbah was raided and clients gave evidence against the women to save their own skins, so, when Dave came to write the book the women were determined to humiliate the men as much as possible in return, right up to the day the book was published it was rumoured they would also name them, but in the event, they stopped short of doing so.
.

Seems to be here: http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1134839

Content seems to have been removed Sinead, or maybe its just my machine!