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Dublin: 14 °C Tuesday 21 May, 2013

Shatter refuses to admit State’s involvement in laundries was wrong

“I don’t want to use that type of language,” said the Minister for Justice.

Image: Julien Behal/PA Wire/Press Association Images

THE MINISTER FOR Justice has this morning refused to admit that the State’s involvement in the Magdalene Laundries system was wrong.

“I don’t want to use that type of language,” Alan Shatter told Morning Ireland after being asked by reporter Gavin Jennings, “Was it wrong for the State to collude with the enslavement of women and children?”

He added, “It is absolutely clear that the laundries were a cold and harsh environment.”

Shatter said the Government needs to reflect on Senator Martin McAleese’s report and all the information available to establish what can be done for individuals whose lives have been “blighted and burdened” by stays in the laundries.

“Yesterday was a very important day. This was a watershed report that did cast light on areas that had been in the shadows. I’m pleased that the report has now been published. And of course we accept the content of the report.”

He noted that there was a “varied story” in the report, citing that 74 per cent of Magdalenes came through routes other than the State. “Sadly and tragically, many of them were put in the laundries by their own family members, others volunteered to become residents because of their own impoverishment and circumstances.”

Of the residents, 26  per cent came through various State processes, including the criminal justice system and industrial schools.

Shatter criticised opposition TDs who called for an apology yesterday before reading the report in full.

Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald refuted the claim, stating that much of the material in the report was already in the public domain.

“They didn’t need to go to the lengths of reading all of the thousand pages, to read very clearly, without a shadow of a doubt, State complicity in the holding of these women was established.

“That is the basis of a which an apology is due.

“Can I remind you that Alan Shatter made demands while on the Opposition benches? He said at that time that there was irrefutable evidence of State.”

McDonald said she “had a sense yesterday that An Taoiseach was circling the wagons to protect, as he saw it, the State. There is no doubt about that. He was deliberately setting out his stall to minimise the damage done to the women and to minimise the offence of the State.”

“Here’s the difficulty: the report clearly states there was substantial State complicity in the operating of the laundries. There is a liability on the State. That is just the factual position.”

She reiterated her party’s call for Enda Kenny to issue a full and frank apology in the Dáil today.

Read TheJournal.ie’s coverage of the Magdalene Laundries report:

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Comments (91 Comments)

  • His days are numbered.

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  • I actually don’t mind that they want to take time to digest the full report before offering a full and frank apology, I would suggest in future that they ask to read it before it is produced to the public in future though, so that they are able to do so on the day.

    But I do take issue with this type of nonsense: “a “varied story” in the report, citing that 74 per cent of Magdalenes came through routes other than the State”

    So what? Even if the state were only responsible for 2.6% rather than 26% they still had a duty to care for them

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  • It is just incredible that they won’t apologise to these women for fear of having to hand over a few bob, yet simultaneously speak about having to remain cordial with the ECB whilst paying them €31,000,000,000 and pretty much apologising to them every day of the week, in being good little boys! I am ashamed to be Irish!

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    • I totally agree with everything you have said. I’m sure the people of Ireland would rather give to these poor souls , than to the bond holders

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    • Diarmaid this is just another sign to the people that our political system is not working we need new politics .

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    • There is an estimate that there are less than 1000 women left alive who suffered these terrible conditions. To any government, the compensation bill will be small change. To the victims and survivors, the recognition of their suffering and the culpability of both church and state is crucial for some kind of “closure”. I am dismayed that the government seem unwilling to hold the religious institutions’ leaders to criminal account, especially with regard to treatment, release of records, and questionable accounting – any secular business would be legally obliged, not “invited”, to hand over documents of this kind. I am also dismayed to see that the protestant run “refuges” have been omitted from the report. The problem seems to be that neither government nor church controlled institutions admit that they have done anything wrong. I hope these women get some support from the UN, because they are not going to get anything from the state.

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  • Aras an Uachtarain and the Dept. of Defence used the laundries because they were the cheapest options available – notwithstanding that by doing doing so they damaged the business of legitimate laundries – who laid off their workers.

    “” … the Magdalen institutions started to bid for work traditionally done by commercial laundries. Time and again the leadership of the Irish Women Workers’ Union complained that employers looked for cuts in wages and for longer hours without compensation. The employers argued that they could not pay their workers a living wage and compete with the institutional laundries. In the middle of the Second World War, when there should have been plenty of work, the IWWU had to write to the heads of the Magdalen Laundries urging them not to take work away from the commercial operations. While two Reverend Mothers had “friendly but inconclusive” talks with the IWWU, others did not even reply to the union’s letters. In April 1941 Bloomfield Laundry lost a military contract to the Donnybrook Magdalen Laundry and 25 women at Bloomfield were laid off. “”

    SOURCE: http://bit.ly/UsUgdl

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  • Just another public display of this mans arrogance.

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  • So women and young girls being processioned there while under the watchful eye of the gardai doesn’t prove state complicity? Like f**k it doesn’t. These women deserve an apology and redress as soon as possible.

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  • So he won’t admit it was wrong for government to collude in enslavement. Can he somehow defend this collusion? Cold and harsh is how I’d describe school in 80′s prefabs not the working to the bone of innocent women and children. The response to this report shows the government to be heartless, cruel and with very few morals. Just like the orders of nuns who tortured the victimised.

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  • The victims of these places are going to have a long wait before the government apologises. Another stick your head in the sand and hope it passes over’ tactic.

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  • 06/02/13 #

    Has our government really become so cynical and money obsessed that they refuse to apologise as a way to limit liability on compensation for these poor victims. Never before have I witnessed such a mealy mouthed weasel – Kenny and his cohorts need to look in the mirror and decide who they are representing – it sure doesn’t feel like the Irish. What a spineless shadow of the man I voted for.

    It’s unhealthy, but I actually despise this Government. To think I actually voted for them makes me feel soiled.

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  • shatter has never been able to apologise or admit anything was wrong. im surprised people are surprised

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  • This is a national disgrace, and a full apology should be given.
    It should also serve as a warning of the dangers of giving religious organisations power within/over a government. Church and State should NEVER be allowed to mix.

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  • I always had some time for Shatter-his no-BS attitude with the Church early on made me warm to him.

    However, not holding his hands up here has brought him crashing down in my estimation. It wasn’t a “cold” environment- it was enslavement, torture and abuse. Yes the Church were responsible, but who put them in charge? The State!!!

    The apology needs to be unreserved and the victims deserve so much more than this.

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    • The women should be compensated asap. They also deserve a proper apology. That may still happen. However, we mustn’t mince words. The report was clear and insightful and we should stick with it. The average stay was 7 month, physical and sexual abuse didn’t happen. Heads were not shaved. These women were exploited in a cold harsh environment but in no way were they enslaved. Slaves don’t leave after 7 months.

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  • They really need to apologize as its more than likely that their grandparents or granduncles were running the country at some stage during this.

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  • its an absoloute disgrace, This goverment handing over 3.1 billion to dead banks at the end of march, its time you looked after the people of Ireland and f–k the banks.

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  • evil shower of ba**ards, no excuse for this disgusting behaviour

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  • It’s just ignorance and a perverted sense of duty to the ‘state’. I have some news for them, this state has failed and we want major change but they are stuck in a time warp and are just puppets but they can get working on their golf swings as their days are numbered.

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    • Gerry its more than just ignorance a lot of the people who were responsible for these crimes against these women are still in senior positions in the goverment ,now can you imagine trying to take their jobs and pensions away from them these people ,,who would start to talk and bring the whole political establishment down with it.

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  • our government sticking together as one big linch mob, trying to save money, those poor women and children, and what they were exposed to for so long, it should never have happened a day nor a year, hitler may have died but he left his spawns over here and that is our government, no heart, dictate and bully,, pay back the rich, nothing said about when these bond holders made profits, but pay them for making a loss,,, pay that money back to our own in this country, the audacity to stand before the cameras, and not say sorry,, shatner nodding,, omg what a disgrace,, and i voted them morons in,,, god forgive me,,,,,,

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  • Even if they made an apology now it’s too late the time to apologise was yesterday!! Who gives these guys advice? Anyone with any brains can see that this is going to go on and on until they are brought kicking and screaming into the dail to make an apology!!!… I can’t wait till the next election I just want them out they are an embarrassment!!!…those women deserve an apology and compensation now!!!!!!

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  • Money, it is alway’s about money, the Government would accept part blame for what happened to these poor women it they didnt fear giving compo and pensions , pathetic ,,,,,,

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    • That’s it I think,as soon as a full apology is given the issue of compensation can begin,unfortunately our government dont feel the need for any loyalty to these abused ,neglected ,brave women.

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  • Cliona 06/02/13 #

    Is he crazy or just a power hungry fiend? He obviously wasn’t given enough attention or love as a child! DOWN WITH HIS SORT OF THING!!

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  • He and his cronies are more concerned about what the dictators in Europe will say if we don’t pay them our billions next month.. Overpaid shower of wasters don’t give a damn about issues here at home especially this latest scandal .. I hope these women get justice and closure soon.

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  • Shatter is an arrogant bol***ks.
    And after the next general election he will be out of a job for sure.
    And I for one will sleep happier in my bed.
    And gloat, I will be gloating like there is no tomorrow.

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  • This man must qualify as one of the most obnoxious and ignorant and out of touch ministers in the history of the state and that’s some achievement

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  • Little Lord Farquad showing how removed he is from the masses again. This man has single handedly ensured I will never vote FG again.

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  • Enda Kenny has lost himself in the murky world he frequents all the time .His disregard for the Irish people is a reflection of the contempt shown to us by the Troika the E.C,B I.M.F he has abandoned the Irish people yet again and sided with the ruthless who treasure money above all else .He is a good example of what has so long been a nasty undercurrent of Irish society protect the corrupt institutions at all costs and leave the people to deal with the ills of the failed institutions .Another Irish Leader who has yet again nailed his colours to the mast and it isn’t Green white and Gold that is for sure.

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  • Why is the government dragging this out? Are they waiting for all of these women to die off, so they won’t have to pay compensation? Many are in their final years. Give them the apology that is owed and enough money to make them comfortable. No amount of money will make it o.k. , but whatever can be done for these women now should be done.

    Separation of Church and State! The church and the government should stop worrying about covering their own asses, and start thinking about the good of the people.

    As for the bank debts, they have repeatedly called it Irish debt, to the point that people believe it. It was NEVER Irish debt. It has and always will be BANK debt. It is just the Irish people who are cleaning up the mess.

    Boys and Girls, Can we say “NATIONAL STRIKE”?????? Garda, nurses, workers, tell your union reps to grow a set. People have the power,NOT the government. Surround the Dail and don’t let the bastards leave until the submit to the will of the people!

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  • JakkiB 06/02/13 #

    Liable laws are running the Country now folks and thats all these clowns think of

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  • really turning into a hateful public figure

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  • All of you, back to your rooms now. Lights out in ten minutes. We’ll hear no more of it. No talking at all, at all. In the name of the Father and of the Son…….

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  • No extra reading of the report changes the fact that the state was responsible for over a quarter of the referrals.

    It’s not just the opposition who are calling for this.

    Young Fine Gael released a statement last night calling for a full apology and I see Labour TD Gerd Nash had done likewise this morning.

    The number of government TDs who are quietly unhappy is probably much greater. Hopefully this is raised at the FG/Lab Parliamentary Party meetings today and a full apology issued as soon as possible.

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  • People will be outraged initially, but the Irish public will soon forget or find a new bone of contention to be faux outraged by! Shatter is a horrible little man, however he and his fellow politicians are a sad reflection of the qualities/values of the vast majority of Irish people.

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  • Shameful bunch.
    Can’t even say sorry for the states I involvement in the humiliation and hurt these woman had to endure.
    Enda/Gilmore and co are a bunch of cowards.

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  • If they accept the findings of the report as stated by the Minister, surely they should be able to say sorry. Playing with words to avoid paying redress. He long will it take for them to digest this report. It’s not going to go away Ministers.

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  • This man is a joke !! Enda Kenny wake up !!!!

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  • We’re ALL in the Magdaline laundry now. We have personal liberty, but not economic liberty. We are as bound to labor for the benefit of our overlords as we have always been. Not London this time, but Brussels and the gang of bankers and speculators.

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  • like yourself richard

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  • Tim Hart 06/02/13 #

    They’re all acting scared. Scared of what exactly? That’s what to watch for next…

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  • I’v tried to comment on this but my posts keep being deleted. Whats the story?

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  • I think that the State has to apologise for their role. BUT at the same time, I think that Irish society is in denial over its role in this dreadful part of our history. We can blame the religious orders for their cruelty to these women and the government for not apologising but in reality 75% of these women ended up there because it was a convenient solution for Irish people to get “rid of” a problem they didn’t want.

    We have to look at “ourselves” as a society and how we were complicit or did nothing. That’s the reality. Even if these laundries, had been run humanely and ethically (if such were possible), was it right to deal with women in this way? I can’t see how it could be. The laundries were an “out of sight, out of mind” solution for Irish society to hide it’s “fallen women”. Shame on us for that.

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    • This does beg the question however, why was this shame attached to them?

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    • I think your clearly not accepting what hold the church had over this country in that time Brian, it is said that papers and you might remember or can look it up lived in fear to print a story about the church. So how can society be to blame ? well we can be fair and say yes they are because they done nothing. I would fathom a good guess the reason no one spoke up for fear of a back lash from the church.

      Gettin rid of the problem was not to get the “shame” from the church. I do agree out of sight out of mind but I would think you would have to question why was this the case ? I again can only guess cause I am not of the age but of people I have talked to over the years a common theme I get from people they were scared of the church. So a lot of blame does fall with the church for why this was not spoke up about. I would also like to state for the record I am not an atheist I come from a strong catholic upbringing and hold it as my religion. Incase any one things that is the reason for my line of theory.

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    • Ciaran – I don’t disagree with you about the extra special chains the church had Ireland in but these “reformatories” were not unique to Catholic countries or orders. The UK, in the 1950s would have had a equally conservative view about “troublesome women”.

      Plus you only have to tune into chat shows up and down the country when the topic of “single mothers” comes up and wonder how much progress has been made at all.

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    • Hi Brian I could not argue the facts that you have placed your spot on, what I will say while England had this conservative view about “troublesome women” I think in my view the church did not have the same hold over England ( I could be wrong but I never heard otherwise) as it did in Ireland but this can stem back all the way if we try to do a postmortem on Irish Society how come not so many people took to the call for arms in 1916? My view we have been such a repressed society and this was made worse when the church had its hold on Ireland.

      Now it would be safe to say this should not go off topic into why this happened and why that happend but I am just trying to add strenght to my point. I would also agree with you on this chat shows but I think this is becoming a minority now also while people may hold this narrow minded views in Ireland we now have people who speak out for the weak and slowly becoming better. I think all in all as a republic we are quite a new country so we are learning but NOT as quick as we should be.

      Now time for a cuppa its cold out my way. :)

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  • Shameful bunch.
    Can’t even say sorry for the states I involvement in the humiliation and hurt these woman had to endure.
    Enda/Gilmore and co are a bunch of cowards.

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  • The minister has a natural ability for making friends.

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  • Is anyone surprised?

    This is the man who thinks its ok to torture and kill innocents in Palestine. Why would he care what happened in Ireland 15 years ago.

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  • Emily Elephant and Arbitasure stop being apologists for the Government. Their position is indefensible in the eyes of the people if the comments on here are anything to go by.

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    • Do you have a problem with the content of the posts, or do you just not want to have to read dissenting opinions?

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    • Declan – you are being silly. You seem to want to censor discussion. That is not the Ireland I want to live in.

      My comment is fair enough that Shatter is motivated to protect the public purse, which is not just empty, it is billions in the red. He can be sidestepped by donating your own money directly to the victims. That would help the victims, so don’t just poo poo the idea because you want to batter the government.

      Had the State the money, like we did back in the Fianna Fail days when Micheal Martin chaired a committee to exclude the Magdalene Laundries victims, I would think it immoral not to compensate the victims, along with compelling the Church to do so.

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  • #Shanti Om,
    they were/ are girls and young women and children, who took the blame they were handed because they were Irish females. From posting with the Journal I have recalled why I left Ireland, I felt the same when I was 17 as I do now, human rights, womens rights, children’s rights, men’s rights, if there were justice in the World I would try to believe in it.
    The 60′s in Ireland was some thing to fight against, its was also a laugh !!
    take care love your tweets

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  • Gimlet eye of the canon lawyer!

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  • Bloody Enda Kenny and his reply to SF…..every time Mary Lou challanges the government on any issue…..enda comes back with some smart remake about the history of SF. He sickens me, but me ranting here isn’t gonna change a thing, the only way to get change in our political system is for the country to come together and march on the dail.

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  • I am still unwilling to believe that a misguided notion of protecting the public purse is behind the unworthy, indecent and shameful failure to provide a spontaneous, sincere and real apology.

    The controversial part of my comment is this. The Taoiseach and the Government should not and must not apologise unless they truly mean it and feel it.

    So far Mr. Shatter and Mr. Kenny are blind to the injustice, the cruelty and the oppression which were State sanctioned and reported. Their moral blindness deprives them of that feeling of real contrition for what happened. The main point is that these terrible justices happened during a past era when times were different and when Roman Catholicism rule buy political fiat and force of threat. There was no real harm, no real foul and it all happened in the past. There is something about politics in Ireland which desensitises the conscience.

    Reparation are essential and reparations must start with the four orders involved.

    False imprisonment is a serious criminal offence and breaches of the Factories Act, 1955 were prevalent, persistent and grave.

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  • I’m going to agree with Shatter on this one. It is a lot more complicated than it’s being made out to be.

    Martin McAleese went to the trouble of writing a 1000 page report. We complain when the government makes knee jerk reactions without bothering to understand facts. The least the Magdalene women deserve is for people to actually read the report and understand it properly. Making stuff up on the basis of what you “know” is not an acceptable substitute.

    What Shatter has actually said is pretty inoffensive stuff. If there’s still no full reaction a fortnight from now, then he’s not doing his job properly. I’d prefer to give him time to do that, rather than just take the populist line.

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    • I agree completely. Generally I am no fan of his but people need to wait and see over the next two weeks. He hasn’t ruled out compensation. If it happened it would be far more modest than previous settlements due to numbers involved so perhaps it won’t be so difficult to achieve. Throwing around words like ‘enslavement’ isn’t appropriate in light of what McAleese reported.

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  • John
    That language belongs in the place from whence you came……the gutter.

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  • Mark
    That’s probably the most revolting comment ever made on these pages and a disgrace for any self respecting person but you’re obviously not that.

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    • @Richard. You Again! This is not a feed for trolling government apologists, go somewhere else. At least David Higgins, the Fine Gael poster on this feed, admits his seniors are wrong.

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    • I see another bullshitter from the goverment here telling us how good a job they are doin or some body must have droped you on your head when you were a child dolan

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    • @Richard – fair enough you support Fine Gael but really is it acceptable not to apologise? Shatter while in opposition criticised others for failing to do it.

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    • 06/02/13 #

      Hey Richard – you may want to view this and then come back with your remarks

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avj4cJpDY08

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    • Rayven 06/02/13 #

      Can you believe shatter he stood up in the dail in opposition. And railed on about the inclusion of these wemon in the redress scheme it was all for show and political capital they are just hypocrites simple as that

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    • @ 57 mins ago…… anyone in any doubt about turncoat activities of our pols must view this link. It seems EVERY new administration drops its pre-election manifesto and reverts to some kind of ‘default’ position where real governance doesn’t really figure…… This rather abstract notion about ‘protecting’ the State,regardless of its wrongdoing, is not, primarily why they were elected. So what , or where from comes this ‘default’ position assumed by so many previously free thinking individuals upon being elected to office? Even if the public service is littered with cute hoor Sir Humphreys, when are we going to get a generation of pols strong or honest enough to remain true whether in office or opposition.

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    • @ Richard Rodgers, I am glad to see that you have moved from polluting the water supply to polluting the discussion of the issues.

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  • If people feel strongly about Shatter not apologising on behalf of the State in order not to have to pay compensation from State funds, you should put your hand in your own pocket and donate to the victims.

    It is essentially the same thing; State funds are funds that have been collected from the people. You just side-step Shatter and donate directly. That way you can be sure the victims get compensation for 100% of what you give, rather than your taxes which can go to many different needs.

    Reply

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