Gilmore ruled out a 2nd Lisbon referendum as well if I recall correctly

I will be voting No .

I will be voting No also.

Here here….!

Here here…..!

Still can’t find it, Mark.

only telling porkies .

Dermot you and I tend not to agree but I have to agree with you here.
Given the number of people saying they’ll vote no for any reason other than the actual contents of the treaty the debate is going to be a fiasco.

It’s shaping up to be a fiasco already Gary, judging by VB tonight :P

.. because the sovereignty of the country was already transferred by Fianna Failed.

Now we get our chance to vote on it.

I should hope they are all a bit older and wiser now.

yep Martin, was listening to Montgrief earlier
and you got it, he’s pushing the yes agenda,
well,, thats goodbye forever Monty boy from me

Montgrief is an establishment hack. Whatever the establishment line is, he pushes it. I’m pretty sure its in his job description.

Yes, and we demand reform of the failed currency union, the banning of casino banking & policies for economic growth and employment, not the complete opposite.

See my post below also.

Vote NO to colonial economics.

yes I agree Darren

No and no and no…..
I really cannot understand why people change their vote on the say-so of Dear Leader. Unless of course it is to change from yes to no for the simple reason of upholding our democracy.

They can’t print the propaganda slogans, because Sinn Fein robbed all the ink :-o

Good man Daniel R. We’re not for sale.

i hope this is the topic tonight, was crap last night, no one would let anyone else talk, i found it interesting that the fg representative seemed to be more on the side of the governments critics, while the indo reporter was, as usual, fully behind continuing the current economic policy

Yes let’s vote against the way our business organisations would vote. I mean what would business organisations know about anything.

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/579087/treaty.pdf

Sorry, actually found it …finally!

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/home-page/highlights/european-stability-mechanism-treaty-signed?lang=en

Sorry Revolting Peasant, your comment didn’t appear until after I posted my last one. Thanks!

That is, in fact, an awesome idea!

So what exactly would burning the bondholders fix?
Tax revenue + 15 billion from the Troika = Government services, PS wages and Social welfare etc
Plus the bondholder money from the Troika which is added to the nation debt.

So you’ll notice that burning the bondholders will help somewhat in the long term it won’t do diddly squat to stop the 15 billion we’re over spending. It also won’t change the fact that most of the money we have borrowed and will borrow is for day to day spending and not the banks.

Gary the 15 billion overspend is on government wage and expenses bills, with a few Quid to top up their buddies, who advise them on these very issues. F.F were corrupt, these Guys are the Mafia.. la Cosa Nostra Gael, With a labour Doberman…… Pup…

So let me get this straight you’re saying we’re spending an extra *15 billion* on just “government wage and expenses bills, with a few Quid to top up their buddies”. Do you even believe that?

A split in the ranks David??? Tut tut tut….

And we all believe Gilmore ?

Gilmore ruled it out today, did he? That cracks me up. What Eamon Gilmore says today carries about as much weight as a fart in the wind might tomorrow.

Ireland will be like Greece or Italy if Berlin dos’t not like the out come of this referendum then will we see a taoieach send in from goldman sachs so what ever the people say we will not be taking on board

John g mc G
of course I believe Gilmore as much as I believe Kenny. Never.

We know that Labour has absolutely no say in the Government. They are only there to keep the union heads in line.

the reason Gilmore is being cocky is because he knows this treaty doesnt matter a dime. theyre giving us a false sense of freedom by giving us a vote because they know Europe doesnt ‘need’ it, or us, to ratify it.

and 6 million in expenses…..

@pilib maybe you could look at the rest of the comment, the outcome of this vote appears meaningless as the eu dont need a yes vote from us, we have no veto, they just need 12 countries to ratify, i would be the last person to advocate loyalty or punishment voting if i thought for one second the outcome could change anything

It would be worth voting no just to make the overpaid reality dodgers sweat a bit!

If you don’t think the outcome matters why are you getting so hot and bothered about voting No?

i think the outcome wont matter in relation to the treaty, but i think a no vote would send a clear message to fg and labour that a big % of Irish people are extremely frustrated with their lies and scare mongering

I have read the draft treaty and I will read the final version. On the basis of what I have read so far, I’ll be voting no. The fact that I detest this contemptable government is neither here nor there.

An informed decision…I’m informed enough to know that our political representatives will never experience as much as a tiny fraction of the austerity they appear so keen to inflict on the rest of the population.

To experience austerity, one is required to place ones hand in ones own pocket with a view to spending ones own money.

Irish politicians have three pension plans. One of those pension plans is referred to in governmental circles as a “salary”, another of those pension plans is can referred to as an unvouched expense, the third of course is the pension itself. They have allowances for getting up in the morning, those allowances continue to insulate our representatives throughout the day, and those same allowances tuck them safely into bed at night. Smug as a bug in a rug. Insulated and aloof from the rest of the community.

I am well informed enough to know this much: when I see an elected representatives take a bite of the same shit sandwich he prepared and served up to me, it is then I will begin to consider a YES vote to help him on his way.

Until then they can kiss my furry butt.

Austerity is not a political game of pass the parcel. We are all supposedly in this together and to date I have seen little evidence that might substantiate that such is the case. Clearly it is not so……

NO it was, NO it is, and NO it will most likely be for the foreseeable future.

you should never vote according to how others are voting, either to be like them or not. You vote on your informed opinion regarding the topic. I am voting against it because it does nothing to fix the current crisis, only putting down rules for when the mess is cleared up (God knows how!)

What we need is an agreement among EU nations, excluding none, on how to solve the current problems. Then, start planning for the future.

No offence to anyone but when the hard left in unison calls for a vote one way I have to assume it’s safer to vote the other way.

I’ll vote no because personally I believe it’s premature to be introducing such a move when too many countries are running a deficit, in times of boom and stability it would have been prudent to adopt such a treaty but that’s hindsight, maybe when the actual crisis is solved then we can think about stricter rules on spending.

I don’t buy into the whole “vote on EU membership” lies at all, nor do i think we would be cast aside from any further funding for voting no, if the EU cut us loose it would be just as detrimental to their whole project as to us.

Here’s what Davy Stockbrokers think
“Ireland has little choice but to adopt new treaty, which will enshrine two fiscal rules in Irish law
• The Irish government intends to ratify the new European fiscal compact treaty by end-March.
• The key innovation in the new treaty is a commitment to enshrine two fiscal rules in Irish law: Ireland’s structural budget deficit must adhere to a limit of 0.5% of nominal GDP, and debt must be reduced to 60% of GDP.
• Ireland has little choice but to adopt the treaty given that ratification is a pre-condition for securing future ESM funding.
Structural budget deficit target of 0.5% is a poor choice
• The structural deficit is an abstract economic concept that cannot be observed with certainty.
• For example, the IMF estimates that Ireland ran a structural budget deficit of 5.4% of GDP in 2006, whereas the EU Commission estimates that Ireland ran a surplus of 2.2% the same year.
• Markets are unlikely to derive confidence in fiscal policy from budgetary targets they cannot observe.
Treaty does not go far enough; IMF proposals that could have preserved Ireland’s creditworthiness are not included
• The fiscal compact would have had no bearing on the collapse in Ireland’s public finances had it been adopted at the inception of the euro. Ireland adhered to the Stability and Growth Pact rules prior to the collapse of the construction sector.
• However, the IMF has proposed mutual insurance mechanisms for the euro area that could have preserved Ireland’s creditworthiness.
• Ireland should actively advocate the IMF’s recommendations, not least because they highlight that the sovereign has borne too high a cost in recapitalising banks and deserves additional support from Europe.”
http://www.davy.ie/content/pubarticles/fiscalcompact20120227.pdf

Thank you Gary. If a stockbroker is advocating a YES vote hell will freeze over before I’d consider a Yes. Not that I would have anyway but now you have erased any doubts. 100% NO. Not for sale

On the announcement that ireland is to hold a referendum the markets reacted against democracy, the euro slid against the dollar. Markets do not like democracy.

Cheers Gary. Good to know another crowd of leeches with no interest in the fate of Irish people think the treaty doesn’t even go far enough!

Yes imagine businesses with relevant expertise saying a yes vote would be a good idea. What would these employers know. I’m going to immediately take Sinn Fein’s advice on economic matters, with their hard left policies and track record of telling people what they want to hear.

Yes Gary. Imagine a business with the relevant expertise of making fake money on computer screens having a clue what this Treaty will mean to those of us that make a living in the real world.

I’m beginning to love you Gary. You are the funniest guy from the YES side. Your posts always bring a smile to my face. ;)

Your lack of answers are funny, the smugness not so much.

Gary. I await your answers to rommel’s question levied at you the other day on the Greek thread regarding Goldman Sach’s help re cooking the books and the EU’s knowledge of same. One you chose to ignore. Back to you…

Which question was that exactly?

dont you mean ‘goys’?

Eh we have been following it since the Maastricht Treaty btw Shane that was 20 years ago. The banking f*** up and the ECB/EU reaction to it is what screwed us. Top marks Mr. Gleeson on not knowing what you are talking about. Guess you will be voting yes.

Sorry Shane check yor facts we never broke the growth and stability pact,but would you like to guess which two did or shall i tell you?

We’ve been running a 20bn deficit for the last three years due to over reliance on unsustainable taxes. So no, we haven’t been following it. The ECB had nothing to do with that.

Nope your wrong. If you don’t believe me check out prime time on the rte playback and there you will see a German MEP saying Ireland stuck to the rules.

I want to see both the yes & no campaigns before choosing,everyone needs to but a ‘yes for jobs’ campaign was lisbons selling point & look how that turned out.

It’s not a treaty, firstly. Secondly you can read the FISCAL COMPACT on the departments website. I have read it and it decrees all sovereign debt to be cleared within 20 years timeframe.. For starters that means 10billion per annum for the next 20 years.. Along with reducing the deficit and keeping to a balanced budget… We are already crumbling as a nation and an economy.. So add the above noose round our necks and do the math! … And that’s just my own main reason why.. There are many more reasons also.. I suggest you read the compact and advise what advantages ( in reality) it has for us

lets turn this around adrian old boy,
i know you’ll be voting yes.
please don’t bother with the
“ill be waiting for the full debate to decide” crap,
u know and i know and anyone whose been on the journo for a while will know
what way you’ll vote,

so, why will u vote yes
and please reference the treaty itself.
thanking u in advance…..
oh, and good luck with it :-)

How about this for starters… from Article 32 of the Treaty…
3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process except to the extent that the ESM expressly waives its immunity for the purpose of any proceedings or by the terms of any contract, including the documentation of the funding instruments.
4. The property, funding and assets of the ESM shall, wherever located and by whomsoever held, be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.
5. The archives of the ESM and all documents belonging to the ESM or held by it, shall be inviolable.

goddam Tom, am i reading that wrong or is it pretty much saying it will have immunity from the courts unless it consents to jurisdiction? did someone mention democracy? is any amount of money worth complete absence of accountability?

@Revolting Yes, you are reading it correctly. In effect, this treaty sets up an unaccountable bankocracy that is beyond the reach of any national or supranational legal system.

Article 9
Building upon the economic policy coordination as defined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the Contracting Parties undertake to work jointly towards an economic policy fostering the smooth functioning of the Economic and Monetary Union and economic growth through enhanced convergence and competitiveness….

Article 11
With a view to benchmarking best practices and working towards a more closely coordinated economic policy, the Contracting Parties ensure that all major economic policy reforms that they plan to undertake will be discussed ex-ante and, where appropriate, coordinated among themselves. This coordination shall involve the institutions of the European Union as required by European Union law.

[ex-ante == before the event]

@Joseph, Ill give you an answer that is as honest and straight up as I possibly can be.

1. After much protesting on the streets, moaning, and like minded anger during the FF era at the way we created a massive sovereign debt out of failed banks I watched on in disappointment as people chose to vote for FG/Lab who were openly vocal about continuing those policies. So my posts here are often devils advocatish because Im trying to remind people to stop jumping on quick decisions based on other issues (in this case, austerity/bank debt),and to basically take responsibility as oppose to playing the blame game constantly. Some of the comments here are too rushed , instant No’s , not even considering giving it thought.

2. My vote wont be based on ego or stubbornness, I dont know how Im voting yet, thats the honest truth, but if I am dead set one way for 5 months and the day before the referendum I notice a line in the treaty that i dont like, I will have no issue changing my mind in an instant. Im not into “sides”.

3. I wont lie, I have a bias , something that worries me, im in the middle of getting a business going, I get support with from the enterprise board, local partnership, FAS, and everything I can possibly get my hands on. Im relying on an enterprise allowance for this to work, for the first 6 months to a year anyway. And maybe hopefully a grant. What Im trying to say is Im relying on a default not happening, and relying on the money thats keeping this country afloat, because if that goes Ill lose all that support, and leaving the country will be the best option at that stage. Dont worry though, I wont vote based on that if I dont like the treaty. Im just being honest about my biased situation.

I just hope this doesnt turn into another Lisbon fiasco where there was complete lies and scaremongering from both the Yes and No sides. Im going to read it as best I can myself, Im not stupid, and have patience, so I might as well.

Seriously, go below this, and read some of the comments, Im not by any means saying this applies to every no voter here at all at all, but look at the stuff some people are saying and the amount of thumbs ups they are getting, and their reasons for voting no. Its insane! Its pure revenge and anger, yet ironically the vote TAKES AWAY power from Kenny and pals. Im sorry its just madness.

Fair answer Adrian, thanks for taking the time to put a thoughtful post together.

Adrian. I often disagree with the mob in here but it honestly kinda shocks me to see all the rabid demands for a no vote based on anything but the contents of this fiscal compact. I’ve seen less petty children in a playground. Many are salivating as they seem to think a no vote will magically sort out all our financial problems, which it really won’t.
The chances are if we vote no we’ll have to either stop borrowing or borrow at high rates off the bond markets. Both of these will have nasty consequences and will likely make things worse.

why? it will be ratified in europe no matter the outcome of our referendum, this is a fine opportunity to show displeasure at the governments lies

So if this treaty was in force would it have stopped our economic meltdown? I don’t see that it would. Although I’m yet to actually see the treaty…

Patrick, we probably wouldn’t have needed a bailout if we had been following the policies that the treaty puts forward.

Adrian,
one word – banks!

Mmmmm we need to pass this one smacks of “come the revolution you will do what your told”

He gives me the feeling he would also be willing to rule out the result of the next general election if and when it goes against him.

@revolting Peasant, you could engage your brain, vote on the referendum because you believe it will or won’t be good for the country ?????????????????? vote yes or no on the referendum issue. Voting no to simply show your displeasure at the government is daft. Probably won’t bring an election any closer, but you are entitled to sulk, not look at the issue and vote no because your sulking. Great logic ok

read the whole comment Tom

Peasant your point is to vote no as a protest, of course it makes a difference whether we vote yes or no

i answered this question in a lower post, i do believe we should disqualify ourselves from any more european ‘help’, but what i allude to here is that this ratification will go ahead no matter the outcome of our referendum, do you really think, given recent history, that we would be allowed to vote on anything that matters? look at what happened in Greece with their proposed referendum

No , No .

From the Economist regarding the treaty: (Full text http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2011/12/euro-zones-treaties)

“All this sets up not just a two-tier EU (with Britain in the outer edge), but perhaps also a two-tier euro zone. On the current draft, Ireland will not be able to veto the new intergovernmental treaty. But wealthy Germany alone can block the ESM treaty, and can block decisions to grant aid to any country.”

This is what the business world themselves are saying. Just wonder will our government say the same to the public. Don’t be fools, this will tie us to the will of Germany and big EU nations. Its not good for us, not good for democracy in Europe. Unity in Diversity, if it was ever existant, will be dead in the water. From now on, Deutschland uber alles.

Tom Sullivan provides this a few posts down, i find it extremely confusing why anyone would even consider voting for this
3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process except to the extent that the ESM expressly waives its immunity for the purpose of any proceedings or by the terms of any contract, including the documentation of the funding instruments.
4. The property, funding and assets of the ESM shall, wherever located and by whomsoever held, be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.
5. The archives of the ESM and all documents belonging to the ESM or held by it, shall be inviolable.

No, we don’t.

It might appear to be in our interest but we’ve had a few years of that now and it hasn’t worked.

Chuck the treaty and get on with the job of rebuilding Ireland from the ashes that will be left.

The shirts get bluer and bluer. You vill do as ve say schnell!

easy to spot your a real fine gael fine fail voter stephen your pathetic

There would still be alternative avenues in which Ireland could follow to secure additional bail out funds should they be needed. Not everything needs to; or does, come from the ECB/ESFS.

According to our dear leaders we won’t need a second bail so the question does not arise they can’t have it both ways

I’m pretty sure the IMF won’t give us anything if we don’t sign up to the European Stability Fund.

paul,
u make it sound like the IMF are gifting us the money.
newsflash, we get to pay it ALL back plus interest!

If we vote no and need more money from the EU ESF we will get it unless the EU want’s to see us default and exit the Euro. If you don’t believe me just look at the money we in the euro zone are flinging at Greece. No one in the EU believes that they will get that money back ever.

Paul Our democracy is more important than our fears, slaves are made by such methods.

And the downside Paul, will be…… ?? That you can say for sure now..

Love how you’re thinking Martin Byrne. Love it.