Kerry. There is a clear choice here, People can either vote no and side with the Motley crew of Shane Ross, Sinn Féin and most of the leading economists of the world or they can vote Yes and follow FF/FG who have successfully led us to 10 good years out of the last 90 and created massive Irish colonies in places as far away as Perth and San Francisco – Empire builders!

Vote Yes for Jobs, laughter and lollipops for your children.

Vote No if you want your children to be eaten by wild dogs. Do you, do you!

Brought to you by “Yes to Europe”.

@ Tim……. People have been shot for less……. We need more sarcasm and satire here and way less spin and politico speak…… Here’s to several NO VOTES

When were FG and FF in government together? I don’t recall that ever happening…

@ Eoin.. since the foundation of the state, but not together….

Yeah …It’s great isn’t it :)

Niall
No . Don’t be defeated like that ….

Wasn’t there a minimum time frame, in the past, before a referendum could be re-presented to the electorate….. For some reason I have ten years in my mind and that’s going back to the first Divorce & Abortion referenda in the eighties…….. I may well be wrong, but it’s in my mind for some reason…… And furthermore if there isn’t one, there should be one … minimum of 5 year gaps

Fianna Fáil also support imprisonment for people who are convicted of rape.

Are you opposed to that too?

are you sure? they didnt seem very motivated to imprison certain members of certain types of organisations

tell me this paul, do people whos views and practise you oppose also support the imprisonment of rapists?, your question is immature and irrelevant

You’re missing my point. I’m saying that opposing something because someone supports it is pointless.

Not when those FF traitors are involved.

i most certainly would oppose many things because ff support it, and that would be based on their performance and the esteem in which i hold their ability to know the right course of action(none), but on this particular issue, having read a small part of it, it says in no uncertain terms, that this will set up a body of authority that is outside any lawful jurisdiction, in effect it supersedes all law in europe, i cannot understand why this particular section has yet to be raised by any of the parties

3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process except to the extent that the ESM expressly waives its immunity for the purpose of any proceedings or by the terms of any contract, including the documentation of the funding instruments.
4. The property, funding and assets of the ESM shall, wherever located and by whomsoever held, be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.
5. The archives of the ESM and all documents belonging to the ESM or held by it, shall be inviolable.

Nothing’s going to be added to the constitution

“This is the worst idea any Attorney general ever had in Ireland” what do you mean? its the AG that has concluded we must have the referendum, without this conclusion the fg/ff/labour super party would have ratified the treaty without one, i have a feeling we will not get this referendum anyway but if we do ill be voting no

I figure you mean the “BEST IDEA”

I’d say the AG personally didn’t want this but that the requirements of the constitution are clear on this, it had to be put to the people.

If it does, i’m going to vote the same way every time!

?????

Here’s a dozen printer cartridges, now get printing those leaflets.

Whats the basis of the NO campaign? Havent made up mind, and im genuinely interested?

Chris I read the treaty and had 48 concerns so I’m not going to bore you with all of that. However I’ll give you a good reason, the treaty specifically states that states over the limit must have their budgets approved by a majority not all states contrary to current circumstances. When we exit the bailout program, we will then be bound by that rule(the bailed out countries won’t have the bailout agreements changed) which means we essentially risk loosing all control over our budgets permanently if other states just suspect we are in danger of becoming in trouble(i.e breaking the very low limits) and the debt is based on market rates at time of meeting not the actual rates that any contract states falsifying the books and putting states in further danger of having their budgets taken over by unelected people.

In his government…. damn you dyslexic fingers….

too early Brian, none of the fg/lab cabinet members are willing to put their jobs on the line for the sake of the country, maybe in 10 years time…

I know, no harm in dreaming though…….

That’s an interesting question. Anyone have an answer to it?

bashar al-assad has been giving the vote rigging lessons, so the results are already in……

He’s signing it, not ratifying it — there’s a difference. Ratifying would make it officially valid, which he cannot do with just his signature alone.

Yes, I think:)

Signing and ratifying the treaty are two different things. The poster above has obviously been reading Ed Conway (from Sky) and his twitterings on the Twitter machine.

Having said that, if I were Enda, I wouldn’t touch the treaty (which by his act of signing, only becomes an agreement to put it to the people anyway), until the referendum is held. I think he’s wrong to do so without the people’s consent to ratify its contents.

@ Ryan, You’re right.. The very arrogance of signing it when the people have to vote on it is absurd… He knows that the people are let’s say ” UNHAPPY” at the moment…. So why piss everyone off……. It’s the they’ll do as they are told even if it takes 5 attempts……

Signing up to something too early – then having to do a complete reversal in front of the whole of Europe (if the result is a “NO” vote), not just Ireland would be a MASSIVE humiliation for not just him but for the country additionally?

Ratifying it later or not, the fact that he’s already signing us into the treaty this Friday, is like jumping on a bus and then later half way through the journey, then tell the driver(s) “Sorry, I now have to go back! I shouldn’t have got on in the first place!”

Surely if he is actually signing something, this alone has legal implications at European level?
I get what others are saying about ratifying later – but thats a closing process of something that we have ALREADY signed up to?

Enda Kenny signing a document doesn’t automatically alter Irish law but it does in European terms legally state that we are signed up to something – when in fact despite this legal (European level) promise to see something through, we might have to further at European legal level, revoke ourselves?
This could further turn the whole process into a right legal mess thats all!

I would suggest the best course of action is that he sign nothing till the public’s wishes has become clear and he THEN has a CLEAR and FULLY legal mandate.
He can then tell the minority to go jump in a lake!
(Yes, I know he won’t but he might love to do it anyway later)

Clearly no one here has read the treaty. Enda Kenny signs the paper, this means he agrees to attempt to ratify the agreement in his country through the appropriate ratification instrument(in our case referendum), if the treaty is rejected by the Irish electorate we then aren’t involved in the treaty.

However, if the Irish electorate votes yes(which they shouldn’t from my point of view) it must enter into our constitution in a month and as of then we would be bound by the treaty.

All politicians lie. Idiots keep coming back to them and believing the next lot.

“if I cut off my nose to spite my face, at least my face will know who’s boss”.

thumbs up for once John Brennan

Daithi
Stand firm . No matter what they threaten us with .
Don’t be defeated …

Ireland will learn to balance its books

I wouldn’t go so far as to say it reigns just yet. But at least it’s getting out for a bit of fresh air. :)

Andrew
Thats all we want .
Fresh air and a choice , that is all we want or need.

totally deluded

“Ah shure they’ll keep asking us till they get the right answer”, Well that’s what’s happened in the past, hasn’t it?

Sorry Shane
I meant to give you a red thumb there , but I am sure you can do the maths . :)

Neil
Cheer up ! We will all have a chance to have our say …
Brilliant .

Good point, Neil. The ignorance on here is, as ever, astounding. Ms Gabbett in particular continues to prove her worth as a cartoon character.

The referendum hasn’t been drafted, and people are already saying NO. In all caps. Because, you know, that makes you seem smart.

Now can someone explain two things to me:

1) If we vote no, what do the treaty’s opponents envision to be the next step?
2) What are the reasons to vote no OTHER than making some sort of anti-authoritatian stand?

Paul. For a person giving out Report Cards you seem to know very little. This Treaty is basically the last one written in biro this time as opposed to pencil. What more horrors they may add are irrelevant. We know what the last one brought. No more thanks. And leave Eileen alone. I like her

Ah Paul Mc
Now don’t be like that
Sure aren’t we all Irish men and women at the end of the day ?
And I am the last person to be anti – authoritarian .In fact Paul
I am all for fair play and justice .
I may be coming to my senses and thinking twice or even thrice
before I vote establishment again….
Happy days.
Réada@ How are you ?

I am beside myself with delight Eileen. There are several Réadas dancing around my kitchen. Ireland is coming home. Éireann I love you.

I am really delighted myself Réada, in fact I feel that the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched back on again…:)

Sorry girls, but what exactly are you so happy about? You are speaking in abstracts. I’m asking for specifics.

What happens when we don’t ratify this treaty? What next?

Paul Mc ;Have a listen to this
It just speaks volumes as to how I feel and not a cartoon in sight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4

Enjoy your evening :)

You really aren’t the brightest, are you?

Sticks and stones . sticks and stones :)

Sorry Paul. I’m not sure to which Réada you refer. There seem to be several tonight, but they’ve all asked to to inform you that they are taking the evening off to celebrate.

Campaign for the NO VOTE commences in the morning and I’m sure you’ll find her floating about some thread or other.

My apologies. But think of me. I have to work for her… :-(

Still no answer between the two of ye. It would be laughable if this wasn’t actually somewhat important.

@ Paul, what happens next if we say no? To answer your question nothing we stay in the current program we are in and those countries who want to ratify the fiscal compact do so and good luck to them. Does it mean we have to leave the Euro Zone or the EU? No. Does it mean the funding for the current ‘rescue’ program dries up? No.

Does it mean we will not be able to access more funding after 2013? Well that is the suggestion but seeing as we will be in hock to the ECB/EU for around 80 odd billion if they want Ireland to default on that and bring down the euro currency that is their choice. Me I’d expect them to carry on with funding if we require it.

deluded

Or they (the EU) could do all those things before referendum day – á la the goodies we used to get from FF before election day :) – It would save us having to run the 2nd referendum which would save us money in itself.

Mind you with all the money and cartridges that are going to be spent on both sides of this referendum campaign, it might be just the economic stimulus that we needed. Perhaps, that is part of the governments stimulus program to have a series of referenda (incl. children’s referendum, resizing of Dail referendum, a rerun of the Dail committee’s powers referendum, and the European Referendum) to encourage the Declan Ganleys, Michael O’Learys, political parties, EU etc to spend their money :)

Seriously, I hope the majority of the debate will be focused on what is actually in the treaty and its implications and not what seems like the inevitable scare mongering from both sides.

Paul, Steve Jobs passed away last October. I doubt he cares.

Dont be ridiculous Paul, we get told that same crap everytime there is a referendum regarding our relationship with Europe, Lets sign up to the Euro – say yest to jobs. Say yes to Mastricht – say yes to jobs. Say yes to Nice – say yes to jobs. Say yes to Lisbon – say yest to jobs and if we all say yes Europe wont be able to interfere in our national fiscal policies or our taxations system blady blady blah.
And look where we are now, its about time the government starts to listen to us when we say NO!

Most believe that it’s very immature to believe that they tell anything relating to the truth

They don’t always lie. Sometimes they’re asleep.

They don’t always lie, most of them time they tell the truth. The problem here is that the electorate never hold them to account when they do lie, or take actions that are very much against the interests of the country.

63 years. Ireland remained in the British Commonwealth until April 1949, only leaving because it declared itself a republic with the Ireland Act, and at that point republics could not retain membership. Incidentally, this is no longer the case.

But it’s good to know that voters have such a sound grasp of our country’s international ties.

Stephen’s right, It went this way…. Rising 1916, Civil war 22-23…… Republic 1949……….. There was no famine either by the way….. :)

Good man Brian. Truth Time.

Bloody hell Mark, in previous threads about expenses and what not you defended FG’s expenses as part and parcel of having a ministerial post.

So you didn’t hear Mr Gilmore say that the government actively sought to avoid a referendum.Plus i’m not on the looney left.I just don’t like being lied too.

“Those who claimed the government would not give the people a choice are disappointed that their allegation was false”????? are you sure? don’t you think they are delighted to have a say? i know i am, and btw, i see no party, right, left or centre that dont use scare mongering as a tactic, that and derision of opponents, where the lying ends the stupid verbose jibes begin