Well, the Shinners sure do shout a lot.I guess they think conquering thejournal.ie is a vital stage in their plan for total domination.

The bells neil, the bells

Are you contending neil, that people viewing this page, from all political persuasions, from all walks of life and parts of the country, do not have equal ability and opportunity to click on the red and green thumbs?

Can you explain how that works for us please?

Edit: should be “equal ability and opportunity to click on the red and green thumbs or leave comments”. Feckin browser.

Ha ha, if you think the average working man or woman bothers with commenting on a little news website then God help you. If getting some thumbs up on here makes you think you’re singlehandedly changing the tide of history then go knock yourself out.

On a little news website?
Yet you must think it important enuf to drop ur wee gems out there…

Last i heard the journal had a readership in excess of 100,000 reader.

Is there any way to confirm this Gavin?

Awwww poor neil….
poor boo boo…
did someone upset ya?

So if average working people don’t “bother with commenting on a little news website”, what are you then neil? What are you claiming the people on this page are?

Hi Neil
Still banging on without links or proof I see !
Vote NO.

Neils right we should all watch Dobbo miriam twip and read john waters article in the Tony o reilly Denis o brien dominated national media thats what your average working man and woman would normally do..Untill now.. Neil i think in the future it will be a wee bit harder to control information so enjoy your last days in the sun ..I think the Journal is a pretty fair newspaper and people on here are’nt stinking from bathing in the pool of mainstream journalism..that young junior editor on V.B who was he with the independent …was seeming not to be taking sides which is always helpful when your trying to keep your country someway democratic..

@Joseph: Last month we had 1,010,000 global unique users, including 615,000 Irish ones. That doesn’t include mobile apps which are a little more difficult to count, but which account for around a third of our overall hits.

Neil
do you see Gavin ‘s reply ?
Well done Journal.

Gavin, can you say how many users comment at least once a week?

Wow, some of you actually think that the average Irish working man or woman comments on thejournal.ie articles? I´d have thought there´d be a hell of a lot more comments if that were true.

And if you really truly believe that the comments on thejournal.ie are indicative of the true feelings of the average Irish person then I guess every election and opinion poll we have have been having recently has been rigged. Because it would mean that Martin McGuinness should be President and SInn Fein and the ULA command 90% of the support of the Irish people.

Again neil, if average working people don’t “bother with commenting on a little news website”, what are you then neil?

What are you claiming the people on this page are?

We are being asked to sign a constitutional blank cheque.
Yet again the political elite are treating our constitution with contempt and are proving beyond doubt that they are not fit to govern this nation.

After all, it’s one thing to be blackmailed by europe, its another to know the party heading the ‘yes’ campaign could have objected to that blackmail but did nothing because the threat helps them get the result they want.

Think about it. Were it not for the threat of access to funding from the ESM, what would the ‘yes’ campaign be based around? They had no argument of why people should vote yes to this treaty other than the one that was manufactured at that meeting to coerce a ‘yes’ vote. They could have blocked the blackmail clause they did not.

Shameful.

No to the blackmail
No to the threats
No to the Lies

NO on the 31st.

The stupid thing is that they may have gotten more YES votes if the blackmail clause didn’t exist. The idea of the EU looking over what our government does with our money isn’t a bad thing in my opinion. Just look at how bad our governments over the last 10 to 20 years have ran this country.

I’m still voting NO

Trueleft. We don’t often agree, fair enough but I think you know this ‘blackmailed by Europe’ and ‘blackmail clause’ and all the other emotive stuff is a very dishonest way to get your views out.

This is what we’re voting on… (A list I stole off boards.ie)

What’s in existing agreements:
1. the 3% deficit rule
2. the 60% debt rule
3. the structural balance rule
4. the penalties and procedures attached to breaches of the rules

What’s new:
1. transposing the fiscal rules into national law
2. creating a national ‘correction mechanism’
3. making 1 and 2 subject to a ruling of the CJEU
4. the voting mechanism for determining whether the rules have been breached, which moves from requiring majority to support to requiring a majority to block

And finally access to the ESM cash.

That’s it. Really can you not make it about the actual treaty?

It’s to tell if it’s FG or FF that’s heading the yes campaign. After Bruton/Martin performance on Today FM. Amazingly, the leader of UKIP is doing more for the interests of ordinary Irish people than our own traitorous political parties.

“The majority of these rules have already been enshrined, already before, and they haven’t been observed and they haven’t been followed.
If we’re talking about this treaty inducing any sort of stability. We’re talking about a treaty that can potentially contain revisions about the common corporate tax base, about the harmonisation of corporate and other taxes and tax policy across the country. Which will most likely have contained in it some sort of reference to financial transaction taxes.
Is your government saying those things are great for Ireland? Is your government saying those things are great for stability?
Dr Constantin Gurdgiev to Pascal O’Donoghue on Tonight with Vincent Browne

Sean. Firstly you’ll forgive me for entirely disagreeing with you that Nigel Farage of the UK Independence party is representing the people of Ireland. He is doing the very opposite to that. He doesn’t give a damn about the people of Ireland outside of his desire to get what he wants in the UK. And what he wants in the UK is really not in our interest. He’s a half a step from the BNP. Even if the devil happens to agree with you on a particular point doesn’t stop him being the devil.

Secondly. “potentially contain revisions about the common corporate tax base”. Sorry but I have read and reread this treaty and there’s *nothing* that can get us to change our corporate tax rate. I’ve asked experts and they tell me there’s nothing in it that can change our corporate tax rate. If you’re going to keep quoting Constantin Gurdgiev can you ask him where in the treaty this happens?
I’m going to go and ask some experts again about what he said and I’ll get back to you.

Ya got a hotline to the aul experts there Gary, eh?
Forgive me for laughing out loud!

Gary while your talking to your ‘experts’ ask them what’s to stop Hollande who has said he will not ratify the fiscal treaty with out changes insisting that all euro zone countries corporation tax has to be set to say 32% within 5 years?

You might also ask your ‘experts’ were would that leave Ireland if we have already approved the treaty and changed the constitution.

Also ask them are they in the habit of signing legal documents when only half the document is available to read.

Thanks.

So, Gary, you’re accusing me of being ‘dishonest’ by referring to the clause which states access to the ESM is conditional on ratifying the fiscal compact treaty as a ‘blackmail clause’?

Lets take a look at that shall we?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blackmail

Blackmail: to force or coerce into a particular action, statement, etc.:

So, the clause created to coerce us into the particular action of voting ‘yes’ isn’t a ‘blackmail clause’?

It’s the bloody dictionary definition of blackmail gary

Joseph. I’ve actually emailed economists and other commentators to make sure what I say is correct. Because unlike many I have no agenda other than having a balanced discussion. To sum up though I don’t care how smug you are.

TTL,
now, as you know gary want a “balanced” discussion…..
in his favour

He’s tiresome at times, but i really am quite fond of the aul chap

Vote yes if you want the poor to become poorer! Vote yes if you want the rich to become richer! Vote no if you have a true social conscience! Vote no if you care about future generations!

Kerry. A Yes in the referendum gives the go ahead for the government to ratify the treaty, it doesn’t add the treaty to the constitution. So there nothing stopping it being amended if that’s what needs to happen.

Trueleft. We had this same conversation last week. I *know* what blackmail means. *You* have decided this is blackmail but most of us don’t see it that way. And even if you think it was blackmail you can still vote on the actual contents of the flupping treaty. Should we vote no if it’s raining that day too?

True Gary. We will be adding the following to the constitution

“The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State.”

So from my reading of the above if the treaty was amended to include setting corporation tax at 32% a body ‘competent’ i.e. the ESM could force Ireland to increase its corporation tax to 32% or face sanctions for not doing it.

No Kerry *we* decide what taxes and at what levels, that is exactly the same as it is now. We need to meet the targets but then the targets are already in existing agreements, some from 20 years ago.

Gary: “most of us don’t see it that way”

So you speak for the majority now gary, do you?? LOL!

Actually Trueleft I was going on the poll results, I may be an asshóle but I’m not arrogant.

Well theres your fatal error gary. The poll doesn’t differentiate between whos voting yes because they agree with the treaty, and whos voting yes because of the blackmail clause threatening our access to the ESM

So to say a majority voting yes means the majority feel we’re not being blackmailed is absolutely ridiculous as you don’t have that information.

Ah for pity’s sake Trueleft are you going to discuss the actual contents of the treaty or not?

Which contents gary, the contents that don’t exist yet but are going to be slipped in later after we vote on it?

How can you discuss the treaty when france has already indicated it will be changed?

C’mon TTL,
it’s a Gary Clowry ‘balance’ he’s lookin for.
Now get with de programme….

Note to self… contact oxford concise dictionary with a new entry..
“The Gary Balance”

So Trueleft that would be a no then.

Gary, I didn’t say Farage represented the Irish people. I said he was doing more for the interest of ordinary Irish people than our own overpaid politicians. It’s hard to represent the interests of big banks, bondholders and Europe’s elite and have time to worry about Irish taxpayers/voters.
At your next “experts” briefing you may ask them given the damage EU/ECB monetary policy has wrought on this country (ie. the most severe crisis since the founding of the state) What assurances do we have that the same thing won’t happen when the EU takes charge of Ireland’s fiscal policy? And would Ireland not be better off taking control of its own monetary and fiscal policies

I’ve already discussed the treaty gary, including the 5-6 billion extra in cuts in 2015 and 20 years of extra cuts that we will be fined over if we do not make.

Funny how the ‘yes’ camp now all of a sudden want to discuss the content of the treaty as it stands, now that we know the treaty is going to be changed in ways we don’t know yet.

Sean. I have to completely disagree with “he was doing more for the interest of ordinary Irish people than our own overpaid politicians”. He’s looking for a no to destabilise the EU, not because he thinks it will help us. Some of you guys seem to want that but most of us realise how bad it would be.

Trueleft. I shown you figures that show we can meet the targets with just inflation and nominal growth, you have chosen to ignore them. And most of the Yes people are actively trying to get you lot to stick to contents of the treaty, which you will not do.

Gary
I gave you an answer on that list only yesterday and here you are asregular as clockwork spouting off the same list today , have you learnt nothing ? I do not believe that you are even willing to open your eyes to what is plainly before you . Grow up for goodness sake and take some responsibility for your actions. What has this stability treaty in it for the ordinary person ? NOTHING! Go on with you , and keep copying and pasting your same questions. You are no addition to this community

What figures gary, your figures from a blog and a guy on boards.ie?

Think I’ll stick with the official department of finance estimates, you stick with your mate with the excel spreadsheet thats telling you what you want to hear.

Does it not get embarrasing gary, or do you think you’re really genuinely making a good case?

Gary – you are being very disengenous with what you are saying

“The CCCTB aims to overcome these problems by offering companies one single set of corporate tax base rules to follow and the possibility of filing a single, consolidated tax return with one administration for their entire activity within the EU. On the basis of this single tax return, the company’s tax base would then be shared out amongst the Member States in which it is active, according to a specific formula. This formula will take into account three factors: assets, labour and sales. After the tax base has been apportioned, Member States will be allowed to tax their share of it at their own corporate tax rate. Under the CCCTB, Member States will continue to set their corporate tax rate at the level they see fit, as is their national prerogative.”

If company x has offices here as well as in France, Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands we will only get a share of whats left after the CCCTB is applied. According to this we can keep our corporate tax rate as it is and apply it to OUR SHARE!!!!!!!!.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/11/319&format=HTML&aged=0&language=en&guiLanguage=en

You dont see this as a problem – No. Well you and your “experts should” as they have left you misinformed.

For more information on CCCTB and CCTB

http://www.kpmg.com/ie/en/issuesandinsights/articlespublications/pages/tax-pub14.aspx

Those boards.ie figures were pretty suspect anyway.

There was a claim that we can resolve the financial crisis with just nominal growth and minimal inflation.

The author pointed out that we’ve always achieved the required level of growth, just missing it 6 times in our history (as I recall, I’m sure Gary still has the link)

Then blew it, by pointing out that 4 of those 6 times have been during the current crisis.

Wonder if there’s a reason for that? :D

Lads, relax. I’ve already had this argument with Gary, and so have a lot of other people. You will get NOWHERE!

Yeah censored ‘just a blog post’ that happens to be from one of our most respected economists using real figures.
http://economic-incentives.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/whats-on-table.html
I’ve shown you other people backing up those figures, even using the 1980’s as an example. I asked you to go check the figures but instead you’ve just decided to ignore them or mock them. It’s another dishonest debating tactic. I don’t care if you’re on the left or the right, a supporter of a political party or not but we should all want the facts, even if those facts disagree with what we believe initially.

Actually gary the person who used those 1980′s figures you keep waving about as proof posted them on boards.ie on a dodgy excel spreadsheet.

Once again, thank you, on behalf of the ‘no’ campaign for your tireless work on our behalf.

The CCCTB and CCTB have *nothing whatsoever* to do with the Fiscal Compact. If you want to be concerned about the CCCTB and the CCTB that’s fine, but let’s try to stick to the actual treaty we’re discussing.

Trueleft. Again with the dismissal without checking. Grow a set and go check them. You don’t want to check the figures as you suspect they’re correct. Very sad indeed and totally dishonest.

What, you want me to ‘check’ the figures some guy posted on boards.ie on a dodgy spreadsheet where he ‘plugs-in’ the figures from the 1980s when we weren’t part of the euro as it didn’t exist to predict how our exonomy will fare from now till 2038??? LOL!

Will you post that link again gary, we could use a good laugh…..

Trueleft. Your debating dishonesty is disgraceful. You have repeatedly chosen to ignore that the first link was from one of our most respected economists, using figures. You have refused point blank to check the figures yet sit there dismissing them. Good luck with that. Let’s hope the Irish people keep an open mind and are happy to check what is really in the treaty and what it’s effects are. We all should be working towards the best result in this treaty and not the one that best fits into our pre-existing biases. Anyway gotta go have a pint or three.

Well Gary, I questioned the basic assumptions behind those figures and you (shabbily) accused me of dishonesty also.

Gary, you like the argument from authority so much, I thought you might find it interesting to read about the “Wizard of Oz” effect:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1998644,00.html

I’ll make up my own mind.

censored the figures are based on what has happened in the past and even using figures from the 1980’s when it was crappy the figures still work. Seems quite sensible.

Jean-Claude Trichet identifies EU establishment’s inability to commandeer the fiscal policy of weaker states as a fundamental weakness of the Euro.
This is the same clown who, as head of the ECB, implemented monetary policies that brought devastation to Europe’s periphery.
Typical Euro-elite solution. The solution to a crisis caused by incompetent governance is even more incompetent governance.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/47471171

Jean-Claude Trichet has identified the EU establishments inability to commandeer the fiscal sovereignty of weaker nations as a fundamental flaw in the Euro.
This from the clown who implemented monetary policies to prop up France and Germany at the expense of the periphery.
Typical of the Euro elite. The solution to incompetent governance is more incompetent governance.
http://m.cnbc.com/us_news/47471171/2

Are you really voting no because you don’t like how the government handled the campaign?

Why bother voting so? You don’t deserve a vote if you don’t consider the merits of the treaty.

I hate the dishonest tactics from people who all the while complain about the other sides tactics. The announcements are funny. “I was a yes voter until the arrogant (insert politician name here) said (insert comment)”. Of course you were.

Don’t you dare tell me whether I should vote or not. I have the right to do as a please.
As a short answer, no it is not the reason why I am voting no but it has firmly cemented my position on this matter. Conning the electorate is not the sort of tactics I would expect to see from a government. The stabilitytreaty.ie booklet was sent out to every home in this country prior to the the independent referendum commissions booklet. It was labelled all you need to know about the treaty without any notification on the front that it was a government published, opinionated booklet.
I am voting no until a growth mechanism is put in place by the French to allow development in infrastructure without being penalised for over spending. Austerity is not the answer and shouldn’t be treated as the only option.

Thanks for the answer, Gavin.

Gavin. I think you’ll find if you reread what was said nobody said you shouldn’t vote, they asked you why you bother given your views.
I can’t help but despair with many no voters with the constant shifting of the goalposts. You pin them down on one issue they just shift to another and rarely actually deal with the real contents of the treaty.

This is not a 2 dimensional document gary.
There are several facets to it.

Does it cede more control to the EU? A yes or no answer would be absolutely fantastic.
Will it impact on this nations sovereignty? On a permanent basis? yes/no?
Will it impact on whats left of our crappy version of democracy? yes/no?
Is the ESM totally immune to prosecution? Oh yeah, wait…..that’s normal right eh Gar?

Comments like “you don’t deserve a vote are not acceptable”. Unless we are seeing things differently, I stand by what I said. What sort of logic are you going on by saying that I shouldn’t bother voting because of my views. Why shouldn’t I? I think we can do better

Actually gary the person who used those 1980’s figures you keep waving about as proof posted them on boards.ie on a dodgy excel spreadsheet.

Once again, thank you, on behalf of the ‘no’ campaign for your tireless work on our behalf.

13 days is a long time in politics, they keep up this carry on, we’ll have our no vote :D
We’re getting there, bit by bit.

Wouldn’t it be great if people just had enough and sent a message to the dail..NO be great

What about all the people who have not paid the hhc, that is an austerity tax ,or people whose elderly incapacitated parents are reduced to using 3 incontinence pads per day, or people who are queueing for 15 hours in an A&E to be seen to, or people whose children are with out their SNA, or people whose child has to wait 5 years for an orthodontist, or a speech therapist, what way will they be voting in the referendum? I will be voting NO in objection to the state of this country and the abuse of power that they are foisting upon all of us. This is an austerity treaty and it is a blatant abuse of all decent people. Vote No Vote No Vote No

The Tyrant

The tyrant rules the multitude
Through fear and the gun
Many have nowhere to stand
They have nowhere to run

Who says no to fiscal genocide
Who calls this a crime
Our silence leaves a legacy
That casts a shadow over our time

I will be voting No

PJ

Happy to see so many no voters on this and also when I speak to my own friends. We are no longer the European lap dogs lets stand our ground and fight for whats right and what’s just!!
Vote NO

All the propaganda in the world won’t get these muppets a yes vote. The red c poll must have been carried out at the FG ard fheis. The only place I have noted yes voters is in the comment section of the journal – the 3 usual names of probably one person in a FG office somewhere repeating the same trash day in day out across every article that is written about the upcoming treaty.
@ Gary Clowry You copied a list from Boards.ie and pointed to what you are most interested in with regard to the additions to the Maastricht treaty (the original form of this new treaty) . Like a true FGer you point out your interest in the ESM cash. Ireland does not need and the majority of the population do not want the pain and suffering to our children and their children that this money would bring.
You keep asking the NO side where the money will come from to pay for the running of the country. A No vote will force a rethink on where this money should come from and how our country is run. The Euro is a failed currency and the nations using it are insolvent and have been for years. Ireland needs its own currency to help us out of this mess. You are correct that things will be much harder without the ESM cash – but only in the short term. A yes vote is a vote for long term austerity, for the removal of the middle class and therefore a return to times past when there were only really rich and really poor.
Ireland has all of the resources both people and mineral to make this a great country, all we are missing are true leaders with the will to take on the task, we need patriots to replace the crowd of leeches that have infected almost every section of Irish politics over the past 50 years. Ireland needs a completely new system of government,it is a mammoth task but our only real option at this stage.

Frank. You’ve just done the usual from no campaigners, gone straight after the person. I must work for FG blah blah blah. I must love FG blah blah blah. Propaganda blah blah blah. Christ how tired I am at listening to that. I post under my own name which is far more than can be said for you. In the list I posted there are 9 points and one is the ESM cash, it’s obviously important but not the only reason to vote Yes. Honestly I’m absolutely sick of the dishonest debating tactics from the no campaign and I’m utterly sick of the misdirection and name-calling every day. They should make a rule in here that you have to actually discuss the contents of the treaty.

Gary give it up !

@Gary
I chose you because you are one of the biggest advocates of a yes vote to post on the journal along with David Higgins. Am I wrong in assuming that you are a FG supporter? You certainly seem to agree with their policy of Yes to this treaty and have taken their side in prior commentaries. If I’m wrong in my assumption then fair enough but I don’t believe that I’m wrong about the current state of irish politics. If you believe that FG/Lab are the right people to be running this country I would love to know what you base that assumption on. You are a great man for asking for evidence of the facts so you convince me now that these people In power in Ireland right now are the best of what’s available. Give me good reason to believe in Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore who both lied to the nation to seize the reins of power from an equally inept bunch before them.

Frank. The thing is I’m not really cheering for a yes vote, we’re in a tough spot, it’s a rock and a hard place. What I’d really like is if we didn’t repeatedly vote Fianna Fail and guarantee all the banks. But that has already happened and nothing can be done about it. (We have paid off nearly all the original bondholders so ‘burning’ them is not possible). I’m saying on balance that a Yes makes the most sense, using the facts. I mainly take issue here with the many outrageously untrue things that no campaigners say. If we all keep this about the contents of the treaty we’re voting on then a Yes is a safe bet. However judging by this thread alone the no campaign wants to make this about anything but the contents.

Sorry to answer your question…
“If you believe that FG/Lab are the right people to be running this country I would love to know what you base that assumption on.”
Well I voted FG as the best of the choices available and until we have a general election we’re stuck with them and Labour. I’d like some new blood to come along but not SF or the ULA as they are some of the biggest liars. I’d very much like the government to get on with it and do more, though they’re not half as bad as some make out. And you know what none of this has anything to do with what way we vote on this treaty. Genuinely if people are the proud Irish (wo)men they claim we should all be voting on what’s in this treaty and nothing else. As voting for another reason might hurt us all.

Gary it is plain to see you are cheering for a yes vote. I don’t care either way what way you vote. It’s your choice.

However, you have repeatedly dodged Joe’s questions. Perhaps you’d like to answer them for me?

With regards to the FC Treaty:

Does it cede more control to the EU? A yes or no answer would be absolutely fantastic.
Will it impact on this nations sovereignty? On a permanent basis? yes/no?
Will it impact on whats left of our crappy version of democracy? yes/no?
Is the ESM totally immune to prosecution?

@Gary
You still didn’t answer why you think FG/Lab are better than anyone else. To call all SF and ULA liars us unnecessary and untrue. I am not a supporter of any party in this country, we need a totally new direction but some of the various party reps appear to be working for what’s right for the country. As much as I dislike Simon Coveney I accept that he has helped to create some employment and he is not the only one but they do more damage on an ongoing basis with their policies which are driving our young labour force to other countries. We have invested huge amounts of money in training our young population and other European countries are benefiting from a highly skilled workforce free of charge. Pearse Doherty has the passion needed to be part of a new group who could take this country out of the current mess. I believe that if Gerry Adams stood down as leader of SF that they would gain far more support.
All that will be gained from a yes vote in this treaty is more unnecessary borrowing to pay the unsecured gambling of our banking fraternity (we are far from done with that by the way, I think you are forgetting IBRC). We would be obliged, on demand, to pay ANY sums requested by the ESM as they deem necessary to fund the bailing out of any country that they choose to lend to. Before you say that everything will be fine in Europe once this is in place you need to remember that the fund isn’t yet set up, countries such as Spain, France and Italy are going to need money, lots of it and we will be squeezed to the last for what we can afford over the next 50 to 100 years but will be paying it now! If you think I’m exaggerating then read up on the UK 100 year bonds. You really should look beyond the MSM for your information. The true picture is very different from what our press sells to us.

Aldo. You believe that if you want. Why does it always have to be some sort of conspiracy, perhaps I really just do really disagree with how the no campaign operates. Oh and BTW I had already answered Joseph’s questions further down.

Frank. Yes I think FG/Lab are the best we’ve got, which probably isn’t saying much. Least worst is certainly not an endorsement. Though as I said above what I’d rather is if some new blood came along. There are some good individual politicians but the whip system means they have to tow the party line. I have no problem with Pearse Doherty but unless SF stop the spoofing and have some realistic economic policies they’re out.
The last government signed us up to the bank guarantee and paid out most of the bondholders. Most of the money put into Anglo was our money and is owed to our central bank. As much as I’d like it to be different we’ve already done these things and cannot go back in time.

Should “Thumbs Up” not be Yes and Thumbs Down not be No?! I’m confused now….

yeah would make more sense, duno why i had it the other way haha

What has any of that got to do with the referendum? Step back from the computer and go for a walk.

Gary Clowry’s succinct summary of the issues is what we should be discussing.

There the yes men go again,
tryin to limit the scope of discussion

..to what the referendum is actually about.

Donal first of all, please refrain from personal attacks, you don’t know why I am on my computer so much at the moment. Secondly, it has alot to do with the argument. If you were there to witness you would have understood context, but as always jump and and put the person down first and think later! It’s a Yes tactic!

Eh, Diarmuid – it’s not a personal attack. All I was saying was the issue you were raising had nothing to do with the referendum.

The only people who get personal around here are the No side.

They dont like the fact that your asking them fair and valid questions Diarmuid.You can sense they just think were thick and when you ask a question they want you to be drag’ed away and thrown in a cell for the night..

One person one vote. Simple.
If I choose to vote yes cause I think Gilmore has a fine arse, so be it.
Im also fully entitled to comment on that fact.

Now if I were to post on something totally unrelated to this vote,
like the price of cabbages in azerbaijan,
then you would have a point.

Good try tho!

Telling someone to “go out for a walk” in a somewhat patronising post is not personal? Again, the context is quite relevant, but I am not even going to waste my time explaining to Yes men!

Diarmuid, it was a light-hearted response to personal information you supplied.

Diarmaid, I’ve attached a link which may help to refresh their memory. I realise it can be difficult to keep track of what’s going on in your country while your heads stuck in the trough.
Most probably, it’s a waste of time trying discuss anything with people who treat their own nation and it’s constitution with contempt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13181082

Who’s Gary Cowry by the way?

Diarmaid – if you want to see what a post that is insulting, going for the man and not the ball – take a look at Sean O’Keeffe’s.

Donal Mc Carthy
You and Gary should get a room , wherever he goes we can find you … His succinct summary of the issues ……. I have heard it all now . Best laugh of the day.
Have you not realised that EVERYTHING has to do with this referendum. It is our future we are being asked to gamble . Well for me it will be a firm NO.

Diarmaid,
what else would you expect from the party faithful. All they are doing is taking que from Edna Kennys “I’d say you could do with a days work” comment.

Donal
“The only people who get personal around here are the No side.” Check out Mr Cotters smug insults when you get a chance – he’s firmly on your side of the fence. BTW he’s one of many but always the first to jump to mind.

Anne – you do realize that you got personal in the same post as you decried other people getting personal? Stick to the issue.

Suzie – indeed, I am one of the few idiots who comes back here to try and reason with you lot. For my sins I get accused of being a sheep or one of Enda’s party faithful or whatever.

If you look at this page (and every other page on the journal where the referendum is discussed) you will see that the vast majority of posters are the same No voters. You guys obviously have a very big room.

Ah sure Donal
This is where we meet mcbab , Nucky , Gary all the Yes boys are here following their leader . Asking the same droning questions…I can just imagine you all in your shirts and ties and blazers standing to attention as soon as any one mentions Kenny …..I am having a good chuckle , no need to go out after all..

Enormous! We all get together at 8 am sharp and discuss our tactics for the day over a sumptous breakfast of scrambled egg with smoked salmon, or caviar and blinis.

Jasus ladies, i must be in a different room.
In my room it’s all blokes, armed to the teeth,
combat boots on and ready to crash the system,
and reek bloody havoc!

Much rather be in yer room!

Mr mc gee
I just noticed your lapel badge , it is very nice and in keeping with the times too.
Maybe we will meet up for a break in your room there and say hello to the rest of the lads ….
Catch you on the flip side

The tooth fairy indeed. On Wall St. They used to call Brian Lenihan the Minister for Fairies and Unicorns, due to his habit of making things up and spinning everything.

These people couldn’t care less what happens.

Trouble with the enforced voting is you get many people voting who don’t have a clue or care. They just vote the way the tabloids tell them to – and the tabloids are owned by Murdoch and Packer. At least the people who vote here have thought about what they are voting for

Mark people fought for freedom and democracy. That includes the right to not give a fiddler’s fart. Apathy is a right in itself.

I won’t be in the country on the day of the referendum. I wouldn’t like to be fined and have to queue up at some civic office, with boarding passes, just to prove I couldn’t vote at the time and avoid paying the fine.

I agree Mark that people should vote, but to add to your point our national sovereignty is something people fought and died for.
We surrendered our monetary sovereignty when we joined the Euro. This has turned out to be a ruinous decision. Now we are being asked to surrender our fiscal sovereignty and have no reason to believe that this won’t be just as damaging a decision.
Remember the traitorous Irish parliament in 1800 voted in favour of the Act of Union.

Apathy aside, I was referring more to struggles world wide for the right to vote that we can just ignore. If an Australian is abroad at the time of an election then they must register for an absentee ballet. They still vote regardless of being abroad.
People here at home who don’t know which way to vote can spoil it at worst but don’t just ignore it. If you don’t vote you forgo the right to piss and moan about the result. When I hear about people who say they are not going to vote it baffles me.

Opinion polls run by proper companies are scientifically run and tend to be pretty accurate (within their margins for error). Online opinion polls in the Journal.ie and on Boards.ie for example tend to show large a No vote in European referenda and much larger votes for the likes of SF and the ULA than actually happens in real life.

Hi Noel. The truth about opinion polls is that they only show a snapshot in time and are only as accutate as their methology. Two weeks out from the referendum with so many people undecided, any incidents such as richard brutons ‘second vote’ gaffe can swing votes quite easily.

The only poll that counts happens on the day of the referendum, thats the important thing to remember.

Which is why the polls leading up to Lisbon 1 predicted a yes vote with a comfortable margin.

Ann. Firstly I said “tend to be pretty accurate ” and secondly what polls exactly?

As Gary says, there’s a consistent and persistent difference between (a) the real levels of support as documented by polling organisations and (b) the levels reported on sites like here.

The difference is sufficiently consistent that I’d imagine that some careful analysis of the ip addresses and posting times originating the thumbs up/down and the comments themselves might well suggest organised astroturfing.

LOL you should see someone about your delusional paranoia Robin. Me thinks the Yes side would be far more worried if the Journal took up your idea.

See what you did there Ann, you went after the person and not what he said. Do you not see anything wrong with that? Especially since I’ve seen you complain that other people have done it to you.

Gary am I not to defend myself when someone accuses me of underhanded subterfuge, which I take as a personal insult. If I believe that someone is using a fake FB or twitter account to facilitate coming on here and stiring the pot for the sake of it, I check it out, and if I’m right I will confront that person. What Robin siad is very much delusional and slightly paranoid. And as I said I would imagine that if the Journal were to take up Robins suggestion they would find that there is no substance to his argument.

“Ann” – thanks for your gratuitous insult above in which you said I suffer from “delusional paranoia” :)

In you rush to be rude, rather than address the argument, it’s possible you didn’t get time to read what I said about the consistent, statistically significant, differences between what the reputable polling agencies report and what this site reports, concerning the electorate’s preference. This is well documented and well known, though perhaps not to you.

It is possible, of course, that this persistent, statistically significant, difference is completely random. If this is so, then, well, the moon may well be made of green cheese and you may be the Queen of Sheeba.

Alternatively, it could be possible that Sinn Fein and similar outfits are astroturfing this website for political gain. And heaven forfend that Sinn Fein might behave with less than complete honesty.

Go have a look at the statistics next time before you go insulting your fellow posters.

Thanks!

Robin, I wouldn’t really comment on sinn fein honesty on the day a fine gael councillor was found guilty of corruption,

A former Fine Gael counsellor being done for corruption doesn’t change Sinn Fein being spoofers.

You guys really are incapable of making this referendum about the contents of the treaty and nothing else.

Wow I got to repeat this three times already in this thread.

now gary, dont make me have to copy and paste this again…..

This is not a 2 dimensional document gary.
There are several facets to it.
Does it cede more control to the EU? A yes or no answer would be absolutely fantastic.
Will it impact on this nations sovereignty? On a permanent basis? yes/no?
Will it impact on whats left of our crappy version of democracy? yes/no?
Is the ESM totally immune to prosecution? Oh yeah, wait…..that’s normal right eh Gar?

gary – what iv commented on is about the treaty. the sole argument for yes side is esm bailout fund and access to it. it would nvr be enough if spain need bailing out or if a couple more countries need bailin out. so it isnt the ans. we would be handing over our economic sovereignty which is why i say stand up for our country. it will make sure our children pay the price for our mistakes. i dnt care if i have to live off bread and water for the rest of my days if it means my kids have a fighting chance of a normal life when they are adults. they wont get that if we vote yes. voting yes ties the hands of this giv and future gov. why should future generations suffer for our problems??

Well No Naula. What you’ve basically said there is ‘won’t someone please think of the children’ and some other emotive/nationalistic stuff. As if voting no actually helps the children or the country. It doesn’t.

And how does a ‘yes’ vote, which necessitates an extra 5-6 billion in cuts in 2015 to comply with the 0.5% structural defecit rule enshrined in the compact, enforcable by fines, help our children gary?

Gary copying and pasting his boring comment all over this article ….

Hey Gary, any chance you might answer these…..

This is not a 2 dimensional document gary.
There are several facets to it.
Does it cede more control to the EU? A yes or no answer would be absolutely fantastic.
Will it impact on this nations sovereignty? On a permanent basis? yes/no?
Will it impact on whats left of our crappy version of democracy? yes/no?
Is the ESM totally immune to prosecution? Oh yeah, wait…..that’s normal right eh Gar?

Well Gary, it’s not really JUST about this specific treaty is it? You’re not that naive.

Joe

try as you might to get a response from Gary on artical 35 of the ESM treaty you just wont get one. I’ve tried on many an occasion and the best responses I got was that it doesnt exist, followed by thats not what it says, when clearly it does. And anyway the UN and all those that work there are above the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Ann,
I’m no expert on international law but I think article 35 is a standard clause that is attached to all internationally created bodies that operate across borders- e.g. The UN. Otherwise, instead of providing for this “immunity”, the body in question would have to operate differently according to the rules in each jurisdiction. This would be an absolute nightmare from an operational perspective. This is not to say though that they have total immunity. They still have to stay within the terms of their reference and the immunity only extends as far as these terms. If they break these terms of reference, then they can be challenged. Also they can’t murder someone for example as this would have nothing to do with the Treaty!

Nuala Moran
You are awoman after my own heart . Well said . I will take short term austerity/ poverty over infinite austerity any day if my children have a future where the fear of HAVING TO emmigrate to get work will be gone ( who knows it might even have become a lifestyle choice by then :) ) I will vote NO.

My problem with artical 35 is that the ESM can not be investigated, nor can its employees should a situation arise where financial irregularites to come to light. Of course the employees can waive this right to immunity but lets face it, if Nick Leeson had had that option do you really think he would have waived that right. Of course the difference between the likes of the UN and the ESM is that one is a financial institution while the other isnt. Where there is money there is power and where there is money and power there is corruption.

Ignoreland is correct. The immunity only exists in so far as they do their jobs within their frame of reference. If they stole or cheated in some way that would be outside of their frame of reference so they would be completely liable for this in the jurisdiction it happened. So Ann you’re misunderstanding it.

Further

“Representatives of Member States who attend a meeting convened by a
specialized agency enjoy significant privileges and immunities both during their
journey to and from the place venue of the meeting, and also while exercising
their functions.13 These include, in particular, immunity from personal arrest or
detention and from seizure of personal baggage, and in respect of words spoken
or written and all acts performed in their official capacity, as well as immunity from
legal process of every kind. It also comprises inviolability for all papers and
documents.

Also in relation to paying their fair share of tax

All officials of the organization enjoy functional immunity from legal process in
respect of words spoken or written and in respect of all acts performed by them in
their official capacity, as well as immunity from immigration restrictions and alien
registrations. They are exempt from taxation on their salaries and emoluments
paid to them by an organization, and have privileges in respect of exchange and
repatriation facilities in times of international crises. Officials have the right to
import their furniture and effects free of duty at the time of first taking up their post
in the country in question. A limited category of officials is also accorded the
privileges, immunities, exemptions and facilities granted to diplomatic envoys in
accordance with international law. As the text of the Conventions indicates that
these privileges are not limited to headquarters, but also cover “regional offices”
(section 39), there should be no surprise that the heads of offices in the field claim
status equal to diplomatic envoys. They represent the organization in a State in
the same manner as the heads of diplomatic mission represent their countries.
A major difference between diplomatic privileges and immunities of States and
privileges and immunities of international organizations is that, with respect to the
latter, States cannot exercise jurisdiction over their own nationals. Some
States considers this to be problematic

For more information regarding Legal Statuses and Immunities regarding international bodies

http://iilj.org/GAL/documents/GALch.Petrovic.pdf

All those rights of employees are standard in international organisations. It’s to make it easier for people to relocate and work for these bodies. If you work for the U.N. you are not taxed in your income.
Best example I can give is if you work for the Irish Embassy abroad, you pay tax to Ireland, not to the State you work in. Also this has additional benefits. E.g. if your children want to avail of “free fees” to go to college in Ireland you have to be (a) and Irish citizen (b) no previous 3rd level experience and (c) living in the EU for 3 of the last 5 years. That would mean that an if Irish diplomat was working in say the USA her children couldn’t get free fees. However they’re granted an exception and so they can. It’s the same principle at play here. I don’t think there’s anything sinister behind it.

* and WHO have a history of forcing us into programs

I think to referendum will be about giving the ok to gov to sign the treaty. Maybe they will hold off doing so. Hopefully they will delay as long as possible.

Alot of thinking and hoping there Terry!

oh mama mia, mama mia, mama mia let me go

Ah but it were that simple…

It IS that simple.

You guys really are incapable of making this referendum about the contents of the treaty and nothing else.

Tell me the advantages of this referendum … Do please do I’m only waiting weeks to hear any ….

This is what we’re voting on… (A list I stole off boards.ie)

What’s in existing agreements:
1. the 3% deficit rule
2. the 60% debt rule
3. the structural balance rule
4. the penalties and procedures attached to breaches of the rules

What’s new:
1. transposing the fiscal rules into national law
2. creating a national ‘correction mechanism’
3. making 1 and 2 subject to a ruling of the CJEU
4. the voting mechanism for determining whether the rules have been breached, which moves from requiring majority to support to requiring a majority to block

And finally access to the ESM cash.

There it is. Personally I’m very keen on the new stuff.

Good man Gary when you’ve no food on the table and the bailiffs are at your door show them your yes vote

You guys really are incapable of making this referendum about the contents of the treaty and nothing else.

See I get to be all smug now and repeat what I said further up..

Says the guy who supports the ‘yes’ side who have revolved their entire campaign arouond access to the ESM rather than the contents of the actual treaty.

Too funny.

Trueleft. I’m talking about what’s in this actual thread, you’ve made it about something else again. Go on I bet you can stop moving the goalposts if you really try.

So, it’s ok for the ‘yes’ campaign to continually threaten and coerce people with the blackmail clause regarding access to the ESM, which is not part of the treaty, but if anybody voting no mentions the fact we are being blackmailed, you get your little knickers in a twist, crying ‘what about the contents of the treaty, what about the contents of the treaty..whaa whaa whaa’.

gary, I would love nothing more than for every person in this country to go out on the 31st of may and vote based on their opinion of, and contents of, the treaty. But the gun europe, in collusion with fine gael, has pointed at our heads since before the referendum was called makes that impossible.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Gary. It’s impossible to keep this discussion to the content of the fiscal union treaty when that content is in flux.
So far, Greece is the only nation that has ratified. Hollande has stated that he’s going to amend it.
Draghi has made clear that this is a step on the road to ceding complete fiscal sovereignty to Brussels.
The Irish voter is being asked to sign a constitutional blank cheque to a government they don’t trust and who’s negotiating skills consist of lying prostrate at the feet of Merkel and Draghi.

You get to be all smug now … Do you .. Haha you make me laugh with your uneducated rhetoric about vote yes. You haven’t a clue about economics if you did you wouldn’t be voting yes

Oh Bejaybus
here we go again !
Please stop feeding him ! :) Lol
You know Gary you are quite the singleminded determined advocate of the yes side . When you lose ,please make sur you stay in touch with us all , my day just will not be the same with out your comments.

This treaty is just the final nail in the coffin.

Bertie Ahern told all the “nay sayers” to commit suicide.

And here it is, economic suicide delivered by Enda Kenny’s lethal injection.

I can’t help but notice you guys really are incapable of making this referendum about the contents of the treaty and nothing else.

See I get to say it again as you guys can’t stick to the contents of the treaty. Is this treaty is all the doom and gloom you claim then surely it’s easy to show that.

Gary, repost and copy and paste your drivel as much as you like, and I’ll keep posting the following.

“Says the guy who supports the ‘yes’ side who have revolved their entire campaign arouond access to the ESM rather than the contents of the actual treaty.”

Eh Trueleft not to (again) state the glaringly obvious but I’ve posted the list of what the treaty does a number of times. The ESM is an important part but by no means the only reason to vote Yes.

Here’s the list again, 9 points and only 1 is the ESM.
This is what we’re voting on… (A list I stole off boards.ie)

What’s in existing agreements:
1. the 3% deficit rule
2. the 60% debt rule
3. the structural balance rule
4. the penalties and procedures attached to breaches of the rules

What’s new:
1. transposing the fiscal rules into national law
2. creating a national ‘correction mechanism’
3. making 1 and 2 subject to a ruling of the CJEU
4. the voting mechanism for determining whether the rules have been breached, which moves from requiring majority to support to requiring a majority to block

And finally access to the ESM cash.

And no mention about what might be added AFTER we vote on it.

Strange how you now revolve your argument around the wording of the treaty as it is today when we all now know the treatys going to change and don’t know what will be addad, isn’t it?

Trueleft. What the hell should I make it about? Perhaps the possibility that a giant meteor will hit the earth? I can on’y base a decision on this treaty on what’s in this treaty. To do anything else would be very foolish.

Ehhhhh…. gary, dont make me have to copy and paste this again…..

This is not a 2 dimensional document gary.
There are several facets to it.
Does it cede more control to the EU? A yes or no answer would be absolutely fantastic.
Will it impact on this nations sovereignty? On a permanent basis? yes/no?
Will it impact on whats left of our crappy version of democracy? yes/no?
Is the ESM totally immune to prosecution? Oh yeah, wait…..that’s normal right eh Gar?

Joseph.

“This is not a 2 dimensional document gary.
There are several facets to it.”
I posted a list of pretty much what the treaty does. The treaty itself is only 14 pages so not sure what the issue is.

“Does it cede more control to the EU? A yes or no answer would be absolutely fantastic.”
Honestly I’m not sure. Though I can’t actually see where it does and the attorney generals advice to the government is private.

“Will it impact on this nations sovereignty? On a permanent basis? yes/no?”
Well in a way yes. However only if we break the rules and then do *nothing* about it. Why the hell would we do that?

“Will it impact on whats left of our crappy version of democracy? yes/no?”
Well yes we will have to be more financially prudent. And given our own governments record over the years that will be a very good thing.

“Is the ESM totally immune to prosecution? Oh yeah, wait…..that’s normal right eh Gar?”
Yes it is normal but besides that it’s not immune the way you mean it. It’s only immune if it conducts it’s affairs in accordance with it’s terms of reference. If they do something wrong or illegal they can be prosecuted. Ignoreland puts it very well (and correctly) further down the page.

Brilliant ! Second best laugh of the day , keep them coming .

I wouldn’t tar nurses with the same brush as politicians ….

along with plenty of large brown envelopes no doubt

HAHA sean gallagher will be voting yes too id imagine…this is not a bogus tweet

And pray tell Joseph why would anyone need to pay us off?

I wasn’t thinkin of fellow low lives like me and you Gar,
indeed not even the nucky chap..

Only because you promised them sweets and soda Nucky!!!

Thought we’d had enough of establishment bagmen after the Gallagher episode

Another cave man. Open your eyes there’s people in this state homeless , and starving the weekend means nothing to them.

Thanks for the laugh mcbab :D

Free fun things to do in Ireland – go for a walk and get drenched.

mcbab
where do you suggest we can go for €00.00 ,because by the time I have my mortgage , ESB, Broadband, TV license, and food paid for I have nothing left only milk and bread money for the week. And on top of this I have to budget for the €6 billion extra in 2015 when we fail to meet the 00.5% structural deficit rule .
I can’t afford extra bus fare either mcbab , maybe |I will stay put instead.