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A FINE GAEL TD has called on the party’s presidential nominee Gay Mitchell to explain a letter he sent seeking clemency for a convicted double-murderer who was on death row in the US eight years ago.
The Irish Daily Mirror quotes Aine Collins, the Fine Gael TD for Cork North West, as calling for Mitchell to explain his letter to Florida governer Jeb Bush asking for anti-abortionist Paul Hill to be taken off death row.
Hill was convicted of murdering two people at an abortion clinic in 1994 and later said that he did not regret the killings adding later that in order to stop abortions you have to “do what you have to do to stop it.”
In 2003, Mitchell wrote a letter to Bush, brother of former US president George W, asking him to take the former Presbyterian minister off death row, arguing it only perpetuates the cycle of taking life.
Hill was executed by lethal injection on 3 September 2003.
Collins told the Mirror: “We heard what David Norris had to say, he did the right thing. I think Mr Mitchell absolutely [has questions to answer] he should come out and speak about that.”
A spokesperson for Mitchell said that the appeal did not bear any resemblance to Norris’ appeal on behalf of his former partner who was convicted of statutory rape, an appeal which has ended the Senator’s presidential hopes.
not throwing petrol or water on a fire but… one person wrote a letter so their former lover might get a lighter sentence, the other wrote one looking for a stranger to get a lighter sentence (in this case his life) one wrote on official office paper the other one we don’t know yet, one crime involved a sexual matter, the other a double killing, neither or the two Irish people had any part in the crime only looking for lighter sentences for two other human neither person has said that the crimes didn’t take place, leave them both in the running and let us the citizens of this state vote in private for the person who we believe to be fit to lead and act as head of our state.
I’d like michael d to explain his connection with the Wee People
Seems as bad to me to be honest. Using your position to influence the justice system.
A lot of people would oppose the death penalty, but not a lot would have a problem with a short prison sentence for the statutory rape of a child. I feel we have a right to interfere if a justice system is back at the standard of the French Revolution.
Maria, he’s not writing letters for every death row prisoner…
No, this isn’t precisely the same case (obviously not!),, but the implications are the same.
Although, Gay should explain himself & release the letters to the public before any real judgements can be made, of course.
Nothing to do with the crime or the person committing the crime as far as I can see.
In both cases the crimes were tried and sentences passed.
In both cases elected representatives wrote please for clemency.
Logically it follows that the same posters who denounced Norris must now denounce Mitchell.
Otherwise they are outed as homophobes, hypocrites and VERY FAR RIGHT religious fundamentalists!
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My main problem was not with David Norris’ letter of clemency. I think the other letter to the judges was more like an attempt at a legal defence and I found some of his argument pretty dubious.
By the way, Michael- can you be a homophobe if you’re gay yourself? Putting labels on people is not any kind of argument, imho.
Is this the “hard questions from the schoolmistress act?”
Okay I’ll play.
According to one self-confessed gay poster to the Journal, yes, you can be a homophobe and be gay yourself. His comments were made in context of growing self awareness of one’s homosexuality and the conflict experienced because of previously espoused mainstream attitudes towards homosexuality in the mainly heterosexual community and the resulting self-loathing this can generate.
That’s how it can progress for younger gays growing in awareness from their teens.
But there are also older men who come to the realization of the sexuality later in life, and along the way there may even be denial and revulsion that is externalized as they behave like extreme homophobes.
Finally there are those men who knew they were gay and still went ahead and had families with women and only admitted their gayness to their wives and themselves in middle age – they can also experience homophobia in themselves and within their own family which causes huge distress.
Next time you can google it yourself.
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Why should I bother if you can provide all the info for me, Michael?
Interesting information, but doesn’t explain the behaviour of Norris supporters who had no problem with homosexuality and only withdrew their support following the news about the letters Norris wrote. They hardly became homophobic overnight!
Mmmmm! Never really saw myself in the schoolmistress role before, but it might suit me alright. I quite like giving orders.
Let’s see a copy of this letter Mr Mitchell! Rules are rules and in politics there are no exceptions
If Sen. Mitchell did send the letter on the grounds of anti death penalty then fine,let him release the others he’s sent to tge US and other countries looking for leniancy. If he hasn’t done this tgen he needs to explain why an unrepentant double murderer warrented his interference. There may be a good reason but I’d like to know what it is.
Exactly his anti death penalty argument can only stand if he asked for all death row inmates to be given life imprisonment instead not just this specific case where a doctor was killed for Performing abortions. If it is only this one he is basically saying it’s ok you murdered this doctor and guard because they support abortion!!
And another bites the dust and another one bites and another bite and another biiiiites the dust… Good bye Mitchell , now concentrated in bringing your scum cousin back home to face justice for murder.
Mitchell’s criminal cousin (allegedly a huge drug dealer and allegedly implicated in the Veronica Guerin murder) has been completely ‘forgotten’ by the media.
LOL!
Where did you dig this one up from?!
I mean to be fair to Mitchell, you can choose your friends (and lovers) but not your relations – apart from the one you marry or marry into…
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Very interesting, look forward to hopefully reading the letter and getting further details.
Short version:
Gay Mitchell seeks easy of sentence for a man that KILLS yet Norris’s gets pressured out because his once lover – who actually didn’t kill anyone!
One rule for the man that others wanted gone – and another for a religious extremist!
Welcome to the hypocritical politics and people in Ieland!
The only detail I am interested in is whether he wrote to a court directly during the trial and on headed paper
Norris did none of the above – he sent the appeal for clemency to the defense counsel after sentencing and it was on plain paper.
Logically, if Mitchell only matched Norris, the people who called for Norris head should similarly call for Mitchell to step down.
Leaving Michael D. as the last strong candidate standing.
And looking like Machiavelli if he’s behind all this.
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Totally different scenario! There’s no point starting to pick on someone else just because David Norris messed up. If Ezra Nawi had been given a death sentence, I would have been the first to clap him on the back for opposing such a barbaric practice. The crimes are different, but there’s a big difference between a short prison sentence and being executed.
If Mitchell lobbied for clemency using headed paper, the people who denounced Norris must also logically denounce Mitchell or be branded party shills, scoundrels, hypocrites and homophobes.
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Is he anti death penalty or is the reason he wanted this man saved is coz he murdered an abortion doctor???
That’s the reason I believe, David McDermott.
He’s anti the death penalty- aren’t most reasonable people?
If he’s simply anti-death penalty, why isn’t he sending personal letters (possibly on headed note paper) seeking clemency for ALL death row prisoners??!
There should be no double standards. Norris had to explain himself; now Gay must too…
Most “politically correct” people are anti-death penalty.
There are a lot of VERY respectable people in the united states who are VERY pro-death penalty.
You know the type Maria – “we have to protect our children from these people…”
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Actually John Mack not a bad point.
In fairness to Gaybo, this isn’t the same at all.
It’s actually much worse. He appealed for clemency for an unrepentant murderer. One can only assume he share’s the mans beliefs.
He’s anti death penalty. Aren’t you?
I considered the anti-death penalty argument..but seeing as I’m unware of him sending other letters on behalf of other death row inmates I can’t see it standing up
Spot on Colin – if he was just ADP then let’s see all the other appeals……
Is it genuinely realistic for him to send letters on behalf of everyone threatened with a death sentence across the world? I dislike Gay Mitchell as much as the next man, but this presidential race is fast becoming a race to the bottom in mud slinging.
Also, it’s not as if he hasn’t campaigned against a death penalty before: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-express-outrage-over-womans-stoning-sentence-292635.html
Except that is the case of a woman being stoned to death on the basis of Sharia Law, if that is the only other evidence of his campaigning against the death penalty then you have 1 letter for an anti abortion murderer and one statement against a Sharia Law execution. Amnesty International he aint.
Other people on this page are arguing about him interfering in another countries judicial system. Is that not the same?
Sorry Hugh he didn’t ‘campaign’, he was chairman of the Dail select committee for European affairs and other TDs instigated the complaint, he simply joined in.
I think we need to get a bit of perspective on this one. I understand the point being made by many on this page that he has picked this case because of political interests, and I wouldn’t deny that – I would guess that he was contacted by someone in a conservative Christian group which are loosely affiliated with FG and asked to write the letter.
It’s different to Norris (and let’s be straight, I think it’s farcical and undemocratic that Norris was hounded out of the race) because it was politically motivated rather than personally motivated.
There’s still a long time in the presidential race to go, and it’s going to get very messy if this is the standard of thing we’re going to be outraged about.
@ Hugh Casey
“I dislike Gay Mitchell as much as the next man…”
PMSL :)
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I don’t think there is much to this story because most people are opposed to the death penalty. Let’s not just grab anything here after what happened to Senator Norris. The only story here would be if it were proven that the it was not because Mitchell opposes the death penalty but because of some ideological or personal reason connected to the murderer.
Asking for a murderer not to be executed is not itself a point of controversy, Ireland (and the EU) opposes the death penalty. It does not mean anyone asked for a murderer to be freed, instead life in prison rather than execution. However again I do not know if this is or is not the case so we shall have to see.
Let us be sure that this time all of the facts and details of the matter are known. After all it might distract us from other reasons for not voting for Mr Mitchell!! (I won’t be voting for him!)
But like the rest said, if it was just opposition to the death penalty, we should fine numerous letters to death row inmates attributed to him. I’m curious about a common anti-abortion stance, Mitchell being of a very religious persuasion. But I also agree, let not ride this band-wagon until we have all the facts.
@ Patrick Kennedy
The issue is whether Mitchell used headed paper to make his plea.
If he did, then logically the same people who denounced Norris must also denounce Mitchell or stand exposed as hypocrites, party shills, and homophobes – they don’t have any wriggle room except denial.
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I’m in total agreement with the argument above that says Mitchell must justify that letter. Did he write other letters pleading for death sentences to be commuted to life in prison, if not why not?
Its interesting to see people who hounded Norris defend Mitchell.
Since a blog was used to smear Norris have a look at this blog post about Mitchell:
http://t.co/02qlWSM
In fairness, I want Gay to explain this letter as much as the next man, but can we please stop attacking him because of his religion??!
Just bigoted.
The letter is. ” mind your own business” and concentrate on the following in your own country…getting bankers in the dock, predator priests behind bars,reformation in both houses,houses for the homeless, proper functioning health service,culling of senior civil servants( who are running the country) pay scales for the aforementioned , unvouched expenses,quango’s, FULL investigation into FAS,taking on the unions,clean out local councils( still 5 men around a hole breast feeding shovels)UNVOUCHED expenses,policing supermarket chains for price fixing,variable fuel prices,state of civil power( senior guards about to jump ship to save pensions) UNVOUCHED expenses,social welfare fraud( millions of euro been claimed by foreign nationals whose kids live outside state) UNVOUCHED expenses…. Oh the list goes on…
Writing letters is important too! ;-)
Time for Mr Mitchell to step down, we can’t have double standards here and in fairness he tried to affect another country’s legal system when it came to a double murderer who had no regrets for what they did (other then getting caught)
He didn’t mind getting caught, in fact after he had blown his victims head off (quite literally) he put the gun down and waited for the cops!
Mitchell was FG Justice Spokesperson at the the time. He has sent many of these letters.
The controversy over Norris was NOT that he tried to affect another country’s legal system, it was that he didn’t show compassion for the victims.
Mitchell only asked that this man would not be put to death.
Paul Hill didn’t show compassion for his victims either David. Neither did he express remorse and he even went on to advocate others to murder pro-abortionists. Eric Rudolph the Atlanta Olympics bomber went on to kill one person and injure 111 others. Other pro-lifers glorify Hill ‘s actions and advocate murder as a means to an end. Not much compassion there I’m afraid!
Norris was having a relationship with that scumbag when he wrote the letter and omitted this little fact ….. I’m sick of liberals standing up for him since this all came out cause he’s gay …… This letter is anti death penalty not pro Paul Hill
Liberals? That’s too broad an application of the term. People in Ireland have wider political beliefs that are not simply conservative or ‘liberal’. We have conservatives, we have actual liberals, we have social democrats, we have environmentalist/ecological focused people, we have socialists, we have christian democrats, we have libertarians (they’re out there), there’s even a tiny communist party, we have religious conservatives (who may not agree with other conservatives), we have anarchists and no doubt we have a tiny number of far right thinking folk too.
I take no issue with you expressing your opinion and I certainly don’t mean anything person (since I do not know you) but let’s please not go down the road of using the term liberal to paint everyone who’s not conservative etc, it doesn’t reflect the reality of people’s political beliefs.
Can u prove that the only reason is anti death penalty.
Fine,the let him show the letters he’s sent on behalf of other death row candidates. This is not a liberal/conservative thing,this is about a person looking for a position of political using his position to influence the sentancing of a criminal, why did they do this, we know Sen. Norris’s reason( and he’s paid for his mistake), what is Gay Mitchells,what made this case special. This is an important issue,does Mr Mitchell believe a unrepentant double murderer warrant his interjection because the victims worked in an abortion clinic,did he try abd interject in the thousands of cases since where people have been put to death all over USA. Let him answer the questions,if he has a good reason,then there is no problem but he needs to give them
Very good, Patrick. This forum is all about expressing one’s opinion on a given subject.
@ Martin,
This is a page about Gay Mitchell.
You posted:
“Norris was having a relationship with that scumbag when he wrote the letter… ”
Are you saying Norris had a relationship with Gay Mitchell we don’t know about?
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Mitchell won’t stand down, he’s unfortunately got the might of the FG PR machine behind him, something Norris lacked, they’ll be statements and he’ll do internviews and avoid questions. Norris was just too truthful for his own good.
Norris didn’t have a PR machine???
He’s been the frontrunner since he announced his candidacy. He’s been all over TV/Radio and he was even due to present Vincent Browne this week. None of the other candidates have been given such coverage by the media, and such favourable coverage. The comments page of this website has been nothing but a PR machine for Norris since day 1. The level of thumbs down this comment is about to receive will testify to that.
It was a Fine Gael TD who asked him to clarify this matter, if you actually read the article. The type of PR machine you claim would not allow a TD to ask for clarification.
You also say he’ll do interviews and that he’ll avoid questions….. Surely an interview involves the answering of questions???
@ David, Why is this news not in the Irish times or Irish independent right now? Surely, this is news and RTE1 still hasnt even put up this news at all yet on their website, neither has the breaking news website as well. While Norris was extensively covered. The other politicians should not be preferences at all.
It was covered on Six One tonight
The people who criticized Norris for his use of headed paper must logically criticize Mitchell for the same offence or be branded as hypocrites.
I don’t see throngs of them rushing to comment.
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If it was a personal appeal rather than one using the backing of any official position he held, then while it would raise a few eyebrows, I can’t see what the problem is.
People are allowed to act according to their conscience, as long as they don’t try to intimate some wider official approval for their own personal beliefs.
If he made the appeal and intimated (like Norris) that it came via some official channel, then, I’d have strong reservations regarding it and I think he should answer for the reasons behind it and reconsider his candidacy.
I’m no fan of abortion, or the death penalty for that matter, but like Nawi, Hill was found guilty of violating a law in a foreign nation and was sentenced according to the law.
Oisín,
If you adopt a principled position you have to stick by it.
I have to say I admire you for sticking to your guns – you must be a Michael D supporter.
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@Michael – Actually, I don’t have a preference. I believe that the President should be elected from the best Ireland has to offer. I haven’t seen that in this race (including Norris too).
There’s only one this worse than the “would you like it if it was your child” line of argument.
That’s the “you owe it to the dead generations who fought so you could enjoy what you have” species of logic.
The dead generations fought so we could have free and fair elections.
They’re all turning in their graves right now!
The undermining of the democratic process by Fine Gael and Labour shills was anything but “free and fair”.
it was a disgraceful display of gombeen-man-ism and an abuse of party political power.
The president is supposed to be elected by direct vote of the people.
This means NOTHING when the candidates are already selected – NOTHING!
So when I say I intend to spoil my vote to send a message and use my posts to this forum to remind people of that fact, that is me exercising my vote in what I deem to be the most appropriate way to send a signal to those who think they can undermine democracy in the way Fine Gael and Labour have done.
If even 50% of those who vote spoil their vote it will send a huge message about how the disenfranchised electorate feel about the way Norris was witch-hunted out of the Presidential Race.
Because at that level of spoiled votes, it will be clear to all observers that the main political parties abused their power and influence and the person who “wins” the election, whoever they are, is the not the people’s representative.
At that point democracy starts to break down, just as the banking system has broken down and for the same reasons.
People lose faith in the system because they see greed and corruption on the part of the few screwing over the many for far too long.
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Paul Jennings Hill murdered 2 men who provided abortion services that were legal in the state that the doctor practised in. He was aligned to the Army of God http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA) who believe in killing abortion providers to save the lives of the unborn. If you can follow the logic of that please explain it to me because I can’t figure it out. They also carried out fake anthrax attacks attacks in 2001 and other domestic TERRORIST attacks. So Mitchell is in fact sent a letter trying to intercede on behalf of a man that had links to a terrorist organization that used fake WMD’s as a means of terror.
There is an Army of God website which I will not link to as there are some EXTREMELY GRAPHIC pictures on it, if you are easily upset then DO NOT look at their website. There is a link on the website where PJ Hill describes in detail how he carried out the killings and the usual God delusions. I haven’t read it fully yet but the whole site is obviously run by religious fanatics on a par with the very sort we see in the Islamic world. They also advocate killing homosexuals using the bible as justification ( Leviticus 20:13 ) and make out that all gay people are paedophiles which is complete bullshit.
The more I read about this grouping the more I have to question Gay Mitchell’s writing for clemency for a man that cold bloodily put a shotgun to a man’s head and pulled the trigger. A man linked and indeed praised by a terrorist group that advocates killing gay people. A group that uses God to justify their actions. To my mind he has a lot of explaining to do.
Indeed you seriously have to question why Mitchell wanted to change this guys sentence given who backs him (the double murderer).
Ok people can be for or against abortion but these guys are insane and extreme
Outstanding Brian, now this is what I mean about more details and context. Hopefully we will soon be able to see exactly what the letter (if there was just one). One certainly has to wonder why this guy and not anyone else on death row if was to prevent an execution.
It would be hypocritical to oppose the death penalty in principle but only cherrypick the good PR cases. In this case Mitchell’s acts match his principles* (as well as Protocol 6 of the European Convention and the views of the Irish people who voted to remove the death penalty). (*it is a revelation to me that he has some). People who attack him for this should admit that they are pro-death penalty or are hypocrites.
“The more I read about this grouping the more I have to question Gay Mitchell’s writing for clemency for a man that cold bloodily put a shotgun to a man’s head and pulled the trigger. ”
Absolutely, +100. Killers are usually cold-blooded and dont have any regret none what-so-ever.
@ Conor, why did he only grant it for only this cold-blooded killer? He could have done it for Florida as a whole state, not for one person. I doubt this act was about the death penalty because if it was, he would have gone to the state of Florida, not cherry-picking prisoners
Imposing the death penalty is just stooping to the level of the criminal. If you take a principled stand against state execution, you oppose it in all cases.
@ Brian,
Thanks for the information.
The more I read about Gay Mitchell the worse the itch between my shoulder blades becomes.
It gives on pause to think a mainstream party like Fine Gael has a TD in its ranks who has asked for clemency for a double murderer who has expressed no remorse, who in turn is linked to a terrorist far right Christian organization.
I cannot believe that all the people who hounded Norris out of the Presidential Race have scuttled away, like the hypocrites they are, because their party shill job is done.
We knew at least one party who ordered Norris be blocked – the Labour Party.
Now we see that Fine Gael are in this up to their necks as well.
The hypocritical shower of gombeen men, the lot of them!
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Mitchell was FG’s Justice Spokesperson at the time and his spokesperson has said that he sent many letters of this kind. The big question is how many?
If he has sent hundreds of them, well then someone has obviously picked this one out and tried to smear his campaign. But if he has only sent a handful, then it might be worth finding out if he had a particular criteria for selecting inmates. However if it transpires that most of his other letter were for inmates of less serious crimes then this really is an exaggerated story.
You are suggesting this is new news?
It is not as RTE published this story back in 2003, it was extremely questionable then and still is now.
Norris was different, he did stuff that was not widely reported in the media at the time and it was dug up as a smear campaign against him
If Mitchell did what Norris did then the same people who attacked Norris must logically attack Mitchell or be seen as hypocrites.
The Labourite shills may get Michael D. elected yet!
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The silly season is getting sillier. Anyone who attacks Mitchell over this (and it’s not as if there is not other material) but is not pro-death penalty is a moron: it is the policy of Ireland, EU and Council of Europe to
oppose the death penalty. Whether Mitchell has written one letter or many
(which is almost certainly true) is utterly irrelevant, he did the right thing by writing to the Florida Governor (who fried Hill anyway). No rules or protocols were broken, Mitchell acted consistently, humanely and in a manner others should follow (I can’t believe I’m defending him, perhaps that is why a FG TD is raising this: it softens Mitchell’s image).
Seriously, forget Norris. The fact is he used an Irish governmental letter asking for clemancy from Ireland. It is not allowed having our politicians influencing other countries laws. Michell should NOT have done that particularly if he was a double murderer. The murderer knew what would happen to him as it was his law. Yes, rules and protocols are broken as you cant be expecting like the american politicans changing our Irish law on the way we deal with convicts. Just like we cant be interferring with their laws. So, in my view, I am against politicians using Irish governmental letters for their own personal gain and political gain.
Actually Ruth if you were to look at the letter to the court you would see that it was not on Seanad headed paper but on plain paper. He never mentioned the Irish people looking for clemency either.
If some attacked Norris over his use of headed paper and they are principled they must also attack Mitchell.
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If the law is an ass, you are duty bound to oppose it In the words of Martin Luther King, Jr -.” One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
You’d agree therefore that if Norris -
- acted out of concern for a fellow human being
- sought to make his plea known through formal legal channels
- cited supporting Irish case law and experience of gays coming of age
he was supporting the law when he made his plea.
I’ m SO glad we cleared that up!
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@Patrick Kennedy …. Fair point about liberals and ill take that comment back ….. I’m just tired of people claiming that Norris did nothing wrong and people claim that he was “hounded” ….. Whatever your sexual orientation it doesn’t matter …. In my opinion if Norris claimed he done nothing wrong why did he omit to point out that he was in a relationship with this man. He was hiding an integral fact in the letter which was not explained fully by him during his Nixonesque posing outside his Dublin home this week.
Because he wasn’t actually in a relationship with him…
@ cybernoelie
I think he was…
Politicians are lobbied by their constituents (and others) to make representation on various issues, they also make representation based on personal or party beliefs / policies. In Mitchell’s case he chose to make representation on the issue of the death penalty on this occasion, in order to justify this he does not have to prove that he has done the same in every death penalty case all over the world as some have suggested, he simply needs to produce the letter and explain his actions.
Personally I would be proud of a President who campaigned against the death penalty (whilst ensuring that justice is served upon those who commit crime – i.e. custodial sentence). I would not be proud of a President who campaigns for leniency of sentences connected with any crime against a child.
No he has to prove that he was against more than just this death sentence. If he only sent one for this case then he is saying that this murderer was justified because the victims supported abortion.
@David McDermott
I have to disagree with you on this, you are assuming that he chose this case because of the abortion connection, it is far more likely that he chose the case due to a constituent lobbying him etc.
There is also no question of murderer being justified, rather that the death penatly is not justified.
But as I said Mitchell needs to produce the letter and explain his actions to clear up what could be a non issue, if he can’t do this satisfactorily then his candidacy may be in trouble.
@david Kelly while I am assuming you are assuming as well. He must produce this letter and explain himself. I dont agree with the death penalty either but his motives for the letter need to be given.
@David McD. – Well to be honest, if it was a personal plea made as a citizen of Ireland, then he really doesn’t have to prove a damn thing. People are entitled to believe what they will and not give justification for it.
As long as he didn’t try to make the plea in any official capacity, I don’t think its much of an issue.
The President doesn’t have the power to enact law here and the most they can do to prevent a law being enacted is to refer it to the Supreme Court and hope for the best.
Also being anti-abortion and/or anti-death penalty is a lot more benign than have people ask does the President support pederasty.
I’m not condoning what Paul Hill did to any degree, and he got the justice he deserved as mandated by Florida, so its not like Mitchell’s plea helped a guilty man walk free either.
But if Mitchell made the plea as a private citizen, he doesn’t have to answer to anyone over it if it didn’t break any laws.
The only problem I have with it, was that it was an idiotic excuse he used in his plea. I think most people in America realise that the death penalty is an eye-for-an-eye sentence, yet they seem to be fine with it in Florida.
@ David Kelly
That’s good because Norris partner Nawi didn’t commit a crime against a child.
A child is someone who hasn’t commenced puberty, and Nawi’s lover was fifteen.
Learn the definition of the words you decide to use before posting on a public forum.
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In Irish law, a child is anyone under 18. Some children commence puberty at 8 or 9- are they adults? Have you ever seen a bunch of 15 yr olds? Many of them haven’t even started shaving. I doubt many parents would view their 15 year old sons as men. Most of the reports about Nawi’s victim refer to him as a boy because that’s what he was.
Good job no-one defended Nawi’s actions then, isn’t it?
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“However if it transpires that most of his other letter were for inmates of less serious crimes then this really is an exaggerated story.”
This man is a double murderer !!!!! Its not a lesser crime. Its the worst crime and we dont know the whole background to this man as he may have a string of crimes and possibly more murders that we dont know of. How he came about chosing is beyound me. The fact is, the american people believe in life for life and you have to respect that. The man knew full well what the law is about and chose to do it anyway.
Here’s a link to Paul Hill Jennings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill When he shot his victim he shot him in the head with a shotgun because he figured correctly that his victim was wearing a bullet proof vest. His victims were 69 and 74 years old and he also wounded an elderly wife of one of them. Good told him to do it!
The impression being given of Mitchell is one of a tireless campaigner for clemency for criminals who are condemned to death.
If he wrote on headed paper AND this wasn’t part of his official government functions at the time (and I strongly doubt that it was), then the same people who cried for Norris’ head over his letter must similarly cry for Mitchell’s head or be seen as biased, undemocratic, hypocritical shills.
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He’s a religious extreme that is a member of the European Catholic group Dignitatis Humanae Institute (http://tinyurl.com/6drxf4) and defended Italian MEP Rocco Buttiglione’s remarks when he referred to homosexuality as a sin some time back.
For the record: Gay Mitchell, despite being a spokesman during opposition years, has never been deemed worthy of a full ministerial post by Fine Gael. Mitchell spoke out against the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1993. He spoke out against the modernisation of Irish age of consent laws. Fine Gael did not consider Gay Mitchell suitable to lead the party in 2002 – now he’s ok as President though!
Thanks for this info.
Well, he’s an OK candidate because the Wing of the Party that hates Enda backed him to piss Enda off…
Interesting information.
Must be hard for a right wing Christian Fundamentalist to bear the name “Gay”.
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7 red thumbs , interesting that these people don’t have a problem with the ” penguin” supplying kids with drugs.
Total double standards here people!!! He looked for clemency for a DOUBLE MURDERER!!!! Enough said, this election has turned into a total farce, just like the rest of the country. His time would have been better served chasing our priest peodos and bankers.
@Hugh – Just one question, was it pure coinciden that you deicded to use a picture which makes Mitchell look disturbingly like he’s giving a Nazi salute, was it some subliminal message you’re imparting to us? :D
Blueshirt, Brownshirt, Tamayto, Tomahto.
Il Duce more than Der Fuhrer perhaps.
Hows his record on trains?
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Sorry lads but there’s a terrible amount of horseshite being talked here….
Norris’ letter was problematic for several reasons :
- It was supposed to be a character reference but went far beyond that, attempting to argue points of law.
- It WAS addressed to a judge, and he did draw upon his membership of the Seanad (along with, rather bombastically, many other glittering achievements) in a cackhanded way to legitimise the importance of his views.
- It was not disclosed, and neither was Nawi’s conviction disclosed to the Foreign Affairs Committee in 2007.
- His attitude to the offence was questionable, and it unfortunately (for him) bolstered the doubts that had already been raised in the public mind.
Mitchell’s letter isn’t problematic because :
- He wasn’t attempting to interfere in the judicial process. That had ended. He was pleading for a death sentence to be commuted via the Governor. I’m pretty sure such appeals are commonplace.
- The letter (or at least the fact that it was sent) was publicly diclosed.
In short, this letter – of itself – is a non-story. Aine Collins’ motivations appear to be sour grapes. BUT given that Gay was the most clientelistic TD in Fine Gael for a quarter of century there could well be far more interesting, far far more juicy non-disclosed pleas for leniency and clemency buried away in files… The question is – will they be uncovered?
This kind of blatant misrepresentation was spanked off the Journal two days ago.
Here are the three documents
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf
The first is a fax cover sheet on headed paper.
The second is a letter of reference on headed paper.
The third is a plea for clemency on plain paper
These were sent to Nawi’s defense team, not sent directly to the Court despite the address on the plea.
Addressed to a court is not the same as sent to a court so your comment is irrelevant.
Why would this matter be disclosed in either case?
There is no implication of detriment to the state in seeking clemency for a convicted criminal.
Only a public relations spin doctor would misinterpret a plea for clemency as a support for the crime or the criminal.
Norris did not express and attitude to the offense.
He sought to enlighten a predominantly hetrosexual court to the realities of life experienced by young gay men coming of age.
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As for your comments about Gay Mitchell, there is a simple position on this.
If people spoke against Norris for his use of headed paper then they must also speak out against Mitchell or be branded hypocrites.
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Jesus are you all for real? Who cares what happened 8 years ago? or 15 years ago? Have you looked around you at the state of the ecocnomy and indeed the country?? Is a witch hunt really the answer to all our problems???? Should Aine Collins not be concentrating on improving her constituency than trying to further her own political career and make a name for herself and raise her pollitical profile???
Not properly vetting who was doing what is why we are where we are.
Now the pendulum has swung the other way and it seems as though a politician’s entire life better be up to scratch.
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The American, Iranian, Chinese, Saudi people are wrong. No Irish or European politician need respect a barbaric punishment just because a sovereign state enforce it. And if they have a conscience they have an obligation to act. (and If the name Paul Hill does not resonate with anyone in the context of a capital offence, then they are either thick or under 30).
It’s not his anti-capital punishment that I,and others on this forum, take issue with, that is to be applauded in my opinion. The issue is that Gay Mitchell singled out this case in particular. Can anyone seriously belief that of the 1000′s on death row in US at the time that an UNREPENTANT( that is important) double murderer was the most worthy of clemency. There are questions to be answered, if Gay Mitchell has answers,this will go away and the we can refocus. If he doesn’t then I believe Gay Mitchell has to either step down or own it,come out and say Yes I think that because it was carried out in an abortion clinic the sentance should have more lenient and let us decide at the polls do we want such a man as President
If Mitchell used headed paper in a similar manner to Norris, then logically the people who criticized Norris for his use of headed paper must also criticize Mitchell or be exposed as hypocritical shills.
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Totally agree, Conor!
@ Conor,
You seem to be sending mixed signals.
Do you understand the issues here?
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Someone told me that Mitchell had to fight to get the Fine Gael Nomination (hadn’t been interested enough to watch the selection process).
If that was the case, I expected to see the long knives being sharpened in the press and one or two stalking horses emerging.
And right on queue, looky who’s on the news tonight with their little moral crusade badges burnished bright!
Quell surprise!
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Despite having voted for Mitchell in the 2004 European election, I have no intention of voting for him as President. For all that, though, I find the suggestion that his 2003 plea for clemency is any way comparable to Norris’ involvement in a judicial process to be absurd.
• Mitchell was attempting to influence a political decision; Norris attempted to influence a judicial process.
• Why Mitchell chose the Hill case as one to write to Governor Bush about I do not know, but it was certainly not because of any personal relationship with the criminal; Norris attempted to appeal on behalf of someone who was a current or former lover*.
• Mitchell had no relationship to conceal with Hill; Norris effectively sought to mislead the Israeli High Court by omitting the nature of his relationship with Nawi from his letter.
• As far as we know, Mitchell in no way sought to minimise the significance of a double murder; Norris in his letter argued that Nawi’s crime was hardly so serious as to justify a custodial sentence.
• Mitchell asked only that a man not be executed, something that is in accord with the wishes of the Irish electorate, as expressed in a 2001 referendum, and in accord with the European Convention on Human Rights; Norris asked that a man not even be imprisoned for a crime that in Ireland would be punishable by up to five years in prison.
• Mitchell having written his letter has been public knowledge at least since it was reported by RTE in September 2003, and since then has been twice reelected to the European Parliament by the people of Dublin, topping the poll with more than 90,000 votes on each occasion; Norris concealed the fact of his having written this letter from his Seanad and Foreign Affairs Committee colleagues, and from his Trinity College electorate whose elections of him were thus carried out in ignorance.
* There seems to be some doubt on this. In a 2002 interview, it was reported that he only ended his relationship with Nawi in 2001, four years after the trial, and nine years after the rape.
Terribly to see Fine Gael party shills acting like Crocodiles in Egypt.
I’ve been waiting to see what waffly propaganda a Fine Gael / Mitchell spin doctor would post here.[
Let’s get on with the rebuttal.
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Mitchell was seeking clemency – Norris was seeking clemency.
Mitchell sought clemency for a right wing Christian Fundamentalist ant-abortionist who had killed people in cold blood – Norris sought clemency for a long term partner who had had an affaird with an under age Palestinian who had claimed to be sixteen.
We don’t know Mitchell’s realtionship with Hill, who was sentenced to death for his crime – Norris had a personal interest in Nawi’s case and was afraid he would take his own life in prison.
Mitchel”s crime had no shades of gray – Nawi’s crime was seen as entrapment by many.
Mitchell sought a reduced sentence – Norris sought a reduced sentence.
Mitchell did not publish his letter – Norris submitted his letter to a defense counsel to be read in open court.
Mitchell has frighteningly been voted in by like minded religious fundamentalists.
Should we infer that Fine Gael supporters in their tens of thousands support the actions of anti-abortionist double murderers?
Norris has been blocked from facing the electorate by the Fine Gael and Labour Party Machines.
The actions of these bodies have exposed the presidential race for the élite trot past the post it has become.
This in itself is unconstitutional, since the Constitutional requires the President to be directly elected by the people of Ireland, not hindered in the selection process by a gang of Right-Wing, Relgious Fundamentalist Gombeen Men, Homophobes.
Nawi did not commit rape – again he has been defamed in the Journals pages.
“Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour” seems to be an inconvenient commandment for Fine Gaelers.
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The murderer is dead , so much for Mitchel’s influence ! Norris letter did not fair any better ! Surely this is why we should not interfere in other countries laws as public representatives . Why do we have consulates and ambassadors. I would like Gay Mitchell to explain why he wrote the letter. Why did Aine Collins bring it out into the public forum ? To make it seem harmless???
Nothing to do with Mitchell’s influence or their respective results.
If people hunted Norris out of the Presidential race over his making representations using headed paper, then they must also hunt Mitchell out of the race or be seen as hypocrites and party shills.
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It is absolutely the same thing – perhaps worse as Gay Mitchell did not even know this man and since there is no evidence of his writing letters generally seeking clemency for all people on death row, then it seems clear that he supports this murderer’s ideology. One can only hope we do not get somebody like Gay Mitchell for President – he is so conservative (voted against the equalising of the age of consent for example) that it would be hard to see how he could represent the diversity of the modern Irish population.
(nods)
There is something about the way Mitchell moves, the clipped actions, stiff spine, tight-lipped expression and squinty eyes, that together suggests to me – “repressed right -wing conservative”.
Repressed in the sense that he hasn’t let anyone see how right-wing he really is.
If anyone thinks I am being sensationalist I can only offer the following in support of my suspicions.
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Mitchell
“He is also a member of the European Catholic group Dignitatis Humanae Institute and defended Italian MEP Rocco Buttiglione’s remarks when he referred to homosexuality as a sin.”
I thought we were long past that kind of knee jerk right-wing fundamentalist nonsense in Ireland.
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@Michael 0′ Neill
Don’t you think that, even people who’d be inclined to agree with you, might be put off by the way you descend to the level of personal insult. ” Stiff spine”, ” squinty eyes” ? If a child insulted a school mate like that, they’d be put in the bold corner.
Well, I suppose either you can look at someone and describe them accurately in words, or your can’t – its a gift I suppose.
But denying that Gay Mitchell is squinty-eyed, tight-lipped and repressed doesn’t make him the life and soul of the (Fine Gael) party Maria.
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PS Ever notice how the Control Freaks call every one else “child”, “childish”, “young man” – the implication being that THEY KNOW BEST.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Michael. In the words of Benjamin Franklin-
” Beauty, like supreme dominion
Is but supported by opinion.”
At this stage We will have nobody left in the running. You will have to vote for me:) oh wait I wrote a love letter when I was a child! That’s me out as well.
What age were you when you wrote the letter?
I do agree that, while I don’t share Gay Mitchell’s views he has a right to hold them without being pilloried. I would not like to see him as president because I can’t see how he could represent the diversity of the Irish population with the views he holds, which seem to me to be extreme and in a very small minority. It also seems clear to me that if people think Senator Norris was right to stand down for the letter he wrote, then those same people should also be calling on Gay Mitchell to step aside too.
I haven’t pilloried Gay Mitchell.
Being in the public eye is a hard job, and its easy for your words and deeds to be twisted.
So far I’ve pointed out the evident hypocrisy in inaction of the people who defamed Norris and Nawi, who have said nothing about Mitchell.
I’ve also described Mitchell’s appearance.
I’ve summarized the public knowledge about the man.
There is a possibility that he might grow into the role of President, but I doubt it.
His condemnation of homsexuality as a “sin” shows that his world view is right-wing religious.
This country and others have suffered at the hands of the “we know best” right wingers for decades.
Their overt fundamantalist religious views make them unsuitable in my view to hold positions of authority.
Each to their own, but I won’t be voting for Gay Mitchell.
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There are several disturbing things about Gay Mitchell.
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Mitchell
“He is also a member of the European Catholic group Dignitatis Humanae Institute and defended Italian MEP Rocco Buttiglione’s remarks when he referred to homosexuality as a sin.”
He also defended an Italian MEP who stated that homosexuality was a sin.
And Paul Hill the person whose life he chose to defend against the death penalty was a far right religious “Christian” who justified killing doctors who performed abortions.
Fine Gael shills have claimed here that there was no personal connection between Mitchell and Hill to support what many may see as an unwise use of Oireachtas headed paper.
Mitchell has since been paraded as someone who acted out of principle against the death penalty.
Well then there should be some evidence to support this largesse against criminals convicted of heinous crimes awaiting their judgement day on Death Row.
I suspect Mitchell wrote very few letters supporting cocaine-dealing, black, gang-bangers, but I’ll be happy to stand corrected.
In the absence of this plethora of letters without sent discrimination seeking commuting of the death sentences on such prisoners, then Mitchels’ stance looks less principled and more sinister than dexter.
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It seems obvious that the Mitchell/Fine Gael hair-Splitting Machine sees some difference between Paul Hill executing two people without trial who had personally done him no harm and defending a convicted double murderer who received due process from a jury of his peers and was sentenced to death.
Because unless he’s also writing letters to Paul Hill’s affiliate organization requesting that their members refrain from killing any more doctors who perform abortions, Mitchell might be seen to be partisan to an extremist/terrorist organization.
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Mitchell is as far right as they get in Post-Catholic Ireland.
He has never held full cabinet rank.
He is currently serving in Europe.
He is Enda Kenny’s rival.
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Five roles, even. Three specific to those in the Oireachtas, one specific to locally elected representatives, and one shared by both.
Look at his FG fascist salute. Sir Bob Geldof for President before any old government muppets :)
You’ll note that I’ve said I have no intention of voting for Mitchell, which is hardly the act of a Fine Gael party shill or a Mitchell spin doctor. You should read things properly, starting with the Constitution.
Leaving aside that the next President of Ireland shall be directly elected by popular vote, contrary to what you’re trying to claim, Bunreacht na hÉireann doesn’t require that this happen; it specifically says that where only one candidate is nominated, there need be no popular vote, and it lays down strict criteria for nominations.
In effect, the Constitution says that our elected representatives have four roles: to make laws, to raise and maintain our armed forces, to hold the Government to account, to govern at a local level, and to nominate candidates for the Presidency. Who did you vote for in the last general election or local election? We choose people to make choices for us, and one of the choices we’ve delegated to them is the nomination of people for as candidates for the Presidency. There’s nothing unconstitutional about you not being given the opportunity to vote for David Norris. Nothing whatsoever.
You may not like the Constitution, but in that case you should be campaigning to change it, rather than for people to spoil their ballots. The key issue, in any case, is this.
That Mitchell sent a letter appealling against an application of the death penalty in 2003 has been public knowledge since he did so, less than two years after the whole country voted against the death penalty ever being legislated for in Ireland. With that knowledge in the public domain, more than 90,000 people have twice voted for him, such that he topped the poll twice in elections to the European Parliament.
That Norris sent letters appealling against his lover or former lover being given even a brief custodial sentence in 1997 was deliberately withheld from public knowledge until a week or so back. During those fourteen years, with Norris’ plea for a man who had sex with a child being concealed from public knowledge, Norris effectively misled his electorate, so that though 5,000 or so of them voted for him three times, they did so in ignorance.
Or, in short: Norris’s letter is news; Mitchell’s letter has been public knowledge for eight years.
We just Bertie and Dana and then I am on the phone to Ant and Dec straight away.
Anyone have an actual link to the letter?
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