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ANYBODY READING THE headlines following the release of the OECD Education at a Glance report earlier this month probably thinks that, as a secondary school teacher, I am overpaid and underworked.
I am one of over a quarter of second-level teachers in Ireland currently in temporary employment, paid according to how many hours I teach. I am underworked – because I cannot get enough work. At the moment, I have just ten hours teaching work a week. As well as those hours, I try to pick up casual substitute work when I can and I work part-time in a local restaurant.
The recent headlines didn’t mention teachers like me or the many teaching graduates who are unemployed. They didn’t note that teachers earn 12 per cent less than comparable graduates in Ireland, nor did they point out that new teachers’ pay has been slashed by 25 per cent since the figures were compiled. Those facts characterise the true situation for teachers in Ireland.
Teachers and teaching are the most important influences on students’ educational outcomes. That fact has been highlighted in numerous reports including the OECD study Teachers Matter. Meanwhile, the recent ESRI report From Leaving Certificate to Leaving School: A Longitudinal Study of Sixth Year Students found that students consider the most effective teachers to be those who are prepared, patient, willing to explain, and who treat them with respect and care.
Unfortunately, it is becoming more and more difficult to give that kind of attention to students. Schools have fewer resources than they have had in decades following successive budget cutbacks to education. At a time when the need to support all students is most pressing, resource teachers have been withdrawn, the pupil-teacher ratio increased, capitation funding cut, and grants withdrawn. As a result, class sizes are increasing, subjects are being dropped, higher and ordinary level students are being taught together, and in some cases different years are being taught together.
The teachers I had during my school experience had a huge influence on my educational achievement and career. I got into teaching to have that same impact on my students. Teaching is a job I love, but with only ten hours a week, jobs under threat, and no promotional prospects following the moratorium on promotional posts, it’s not a career I can rely on.
That reality is far from the impression I had of teaching when I chose to purse it as a career; it is far from the view many still have of the profession. Of course the landscape has changed utterly for all professions over the last number of years; people are struggling across all sectors – teachers see that daily through the hundreds of families we come into contact with who cannot afford books, uniforms or other expenses.
Quality education is the most effective means to break the poverty cycle and to prepare for an uncertain future. Each child gets just one chance at a formative education. Chipping away at the only education system they will ever experience puts current and subsequent generations at a disadvantage. I am lucky to have gone though the education system before cutbacks put it in jeopardy. My education is my greatest asset; it gives me the best chance to adapt to this recession.
We need our education system to prepare students to be adaptable, active learners, ready for a changing environment. For that reason, the aims of the Junior Cycle reform reported this week are commendable. But it would be naïve and dangerous to try to implement such changes to an education system already at breaking point without providing required additional resources and teachers.
The rhetoric surrounding the Junior Cycle reform has highlighted one important truth: a student’s secondary school experience will influence the direction their life takes. It will affect not only their exam results or college and career prospects, but what skills they develop, how they view learning and education, and how they understand society and the world around them. Teachers are doing what they can to continue to provide this vital foundation within an underfunded system. But it’s certainly not easy work.
Polly Donoghue teaches in St Raphaela’s Secondary School in Stillorgan, Dublin.
A lot of right wing idiots in this country want public servants to work for the minimum wage. You will get the society you truly deserve soon,
The annoying thing is that they won’t – the public servants these selfish fools rely on (the teachers, paramedics, nurses, doctors, gardai etc.) will continue to turn up for work despite seeing pay slashed or conditions deteriorate or contracts torn up. Any of the people found bawling for lower pay in the public sector would have walked off the job years ago if treated the same way.
We don’t want to see them working for the minimum wage, however we also don’t want them to be overpaid (like they are at present).
While I sympathize with her and the fact she has such little work the fact remains that those lucky enough to teach full time are over paid. I don’t mean to be little their work, it is of course of great importance a full time teaching position and anyone teaching at third level are in one of the most secure and high pensionable jobs going. The state cannot afford such luxuries any longer.
But well done on your working spirit and I hope you turn a corner soon.
Sorry, but what the hell do you know about teaching? Teachers are paid a fair professional salary, and while they may have only 23 hours of allocated class time, I think you fail to reaise how much work goes on behind the scenes.
Teachers must prepare resources, correct homework and tests, meet parents and countless other things. Teachers also coach football teams and help with music and drama clubs, all free of charge.
You certainly have no clue as to how exhausting teaching can be. Imagine herding 24 (and counting) horny, moody, angry teenagers into a room, and then trying to explain something in a meaningful manner in a way that they will remember. Those teenagers would rather be anywhere else, bed, the park, the pub.
Don’t forget that most schools are losing funding to deal with Special Needs or non english speaking students and we have to take this into consideration. I know of plenty of teachers who purchase their own resources because their school cannot afford it.
Please never jugde a profession on what you think happens, there’s a lot more to it than standing in front of a chalkboard.
I’m a student teacher and to be perfectly honest I’m sick of being told that my job is easy and anybody could do it for a pittence. If it’s so easy then why don’t you try it.
Well firstly if you read my comment you’ll see I in know way belittled your profession. And there are harder occupations that are paid less. My general point was that we can’t afford it no matter how you or anyone else works. We all have to take the pain and teachers protest about it most.
By suggesting that I won’t deserve to be paid in line with my future qualifications, you belittled my profession. You wouldn’t expect any other serious profession to take pay cuts, work longer harder hours, so why ask the same of teachers.
Do you want to attact bright students to become teachers, or do you want to attract those who cannot get a better job? Education is an investment.
“anyone teaching at third level are in one of the most secure and high pensionable jobs going” – you’re completely misinformed about that. In my third level department, half the staff are on temporary contracts and it is commonplace for staff to be let go over the summer with no guarantee of a post the following September.
Unlike in the private sector, where after working for the same employer for 6 months’ probation employees are generally offered permanent contracts and qualify for redundancy if jobs are cut, those on third level temporary contracts get nothing when laid off. Rates of pay are also generally poor for temporary staff i.e. far less than the average industrial wage, ranging from 25-30k with nearly all the same duties as permanent staff on twice or thrice that.
The main division among workers is therefore not between public and private sector, but those with permanency and those without. The solution is not to reduce everyone down to the level of insecurity and constant worry about the future caused by casual employment, but to ensure permanent employment on the same terms for everyone working for the same employer for more than a few months.
Anything else is simply unfair and exploitative, creates divisions between older and younger workers and undermines the basic principle of equal pay for equal work and the right of everyone to some level of security as regards their future.
Anyone who thinks good education is expensive on the public purse should see how expensive bad education is.
I commend not only this contributor’s work ethic, but her ability to stick to her calling in the face of an orchestrated and unjust campaign of villification.
David Conroy, you seem to suggest that the quality of education is directly linked with teacher salaries. The salaries have gone up by 30% or so as a result of benchmarking. Is there an evidence that the pupils come out 30% better? I think the evidence points to deterioration rather than improvement. And the oversupply of teachers who now can’t get full time jobs suggest that the salaries on offer are high enough to attract enough workforce. So what is your point?
No, Dom, I should have made that more clear – what I believe is that when any worker feels undervalued and dispensible, it takes quite a commitment to rise above it and give their best. This is the lot of teachers lately, when their valuable contribution to society is being subjugated to the interests of speculators and parasites.
The reason we refuse as a nation to impose higher taxation on the highest of earnings, those that rank in the millions even, is that we need those high-fliers to help our economy to function. My point is that the contribution of teachers is also of value, and if you want to attract good candidates, you need to pay them.
As for benchmarking, it was an attempt to redress the imbalance that had caused the public service, including teachers, to fall behind their comparators in the private sector. The fact is that while the private sector is suffering a decimation of their market, teachers and other public servants are not, so that while private sector salaries are reflecting the fear of unemployment, we need educators, good ones preferably, more than ever.
And (anecdotally only, of course), I do see a lot more high achievers in the leaving than I remember, but like you, I am not in a position to support my assertion with figures.
I think you make a lot of interesting and valid points, but is your case the norm? How many old lifers are in your way or preventing you from being fully employed? or those GAA jobs for the boys types, being hired ahead of you?
It’s very easy to blame public servants and I hate how public sector workers are being held to blame for the actions of bankers and the greed of an entire nation, but in all my time spent in the Irish education system I can count on one hand the amount of good/quality teachers I had. Teachers are not being overpaid but some are hardly earning that wage.
I don’t think teachers are necessarily overpaid but they certainly shouldn’t expect to have their pension paid for them. Also once you are a permanent teacher what kind of reviews do they have? I had so many useless teachers over the years who by rights should never have kept their job. There are some teachers who are great, passionate people but until there is some sort of accountability about their work I won’t have any sympathy for them.
This is the biggest myth out there. Teachers pay for their pensions! I personally pay around 200 a week for mine. When we retire the contribution from the state is the same as it would be if we were unemployed receiving the state pension
As for your second point, most teachers would actually agree with you. There is no room for ‘bad’ teachers, they should either shape up or ship out.
Well there are such things as subject inspections and whole school evaluations. These don’t occur very much due to lack of funding but they are there. And a lot of teachers would agree that there should be more of these inspections.
Allan how much are you on per week that you can afford to put away â
we pay full prsi, we pay the full public sector pension contribution, last year the public sector pensioners “took” 2.5 Bn in pension. but t he public sector paid in 3.5 bn, . i had the honour of working for Sir Robert McAlpine in Cardiff city at the end of the 80′s and i know about low paid jobs from working from subies in London etc , not just summer jobs but during the year, and while i appreciate your anger against Public servants..jobs for life…..pension……..a lot of my pay goes into a pension..we’re not TD s or anyone else….that lady in the article is typical, and it is lady’s.. your’ll find only a school staff and a quarter are men,, its not worth their while
Wait till I get the worlds smallest violin out for you……
You are overpaid. I’m overpaid, the unemployed are overpaid, we’re all overpaid relative to other EU countries. The fact is that everything in Ireland is inflated and needs to come down for the country to be competitive again. That doesn’t mean we have cash to spare.
The problem is that wages can’t come down whilst mortgage costs, rent, utilities and all other prices come down. It’s classic chicken and egg as prices can’t come down whilst staff costs and rent are so high. …. and we’re stuck with a mountain of mortgage debt that can’t be reduced without further bankrupting the banks, i.e. the country.
The private sector cuts wages when it has to do so to survive. The country is now also in a survival battle and the public sector has to do the same. Easy to say when looking at things from 30,000 feet. At an individual level, we’re all suffering.
Well said
By and large, I agree, but I would say that the private sector cuts wages when employees are afraid of losing their jobs due to the ar5e falling out of their market. The services provided by the public sector are as much in demand as ever, and in some cases, more so.
Don’t forget that substitute hrs are paid at over 40 euro an hr! I know it’s only 9 months a year! So in all likely hood you are making more money in your current situation than anybody else who has done an arts degree and a higher diploma! Try working 40 hrs a week to earn 500 euro and having a masters! Also I find it extremely annoying how controlled the no of teachers qllowed to be produced in this country. The cap sees fit to limit the teaching spaces to need in very few professions. Scientists/tech/ humanities subjects are not controlled number wise in college. I don’t think any1 is now entitled to get work just because they are qualified! That does not mean they are good at what they do. If you are truly annoyed have the teaching unions introduce mandatory assessment of teachers performance/ abilities so that the system can be cleared of those teachers that are dead weight earning 45 grand a year and only teaching for lifestyle and not to educate. If that occurred there would be an epidemic shortage of teachers in this country. However I do appreciate what it is like to try and get work in any public sector having been a newly qualified town planner 3 yrs ago and working for a student wage for experience within a council. Now eorking for 20000 a year and a total commute of nearly 2 hrs a day to do it!
then may i ask you, why if it s a *cosy” number, why aren’t you teaching……
Just to give you an idea of (my) typical weeks work as a secondary school teacher. On Monday I taught 7 classes, that is approximately 175 students in one day. I arrived at work at 8.30 with some prep. to do with classes beginning at 9.10am. School finished at 4pm and I trained the U-16 school rugby team ’til 6pm. I eventually got home, had some dinner and then started correcting a set of class test and a bunch of 5th year copies. I finished that at 11.30pm (having started at 8pm). Tuesday, I have 8 class – teaching approximately 175 students again as I have one double class, while also supervising lunchtime detention for a half hour (unpaid!) Tuesday night, I marked 2 sets of tests and another set of copies, finishing at 11.45pm. Wednesday, I have 6 classes and took the evening off correcting but doing some prep work. Thursday, I had 8 classes again – teaching over 200 students that day and then that evening I corrected more tests and did some prep work for Friday, finally finishing after 11pm again. Friday, 6 classes again, then rugby training until nearly 6pm and a well-deserved weekend break. I wouldn’t do any other job in the world..I earn €580per week paying nearly €700 in deductions fortnightly. Like everyone else I have a mortgage and car-related expenses… Am I over-paid and under-worked?
No, you’re not! Another teacher here. It’s 10pm and I’m home since 9pm because I was at a debating competition with my students. It is Friday night and I’m sure I could have been doing other things, but I give my time freely and willingly to my job and the extra-curricular activities I do. I, like you, am in school every morning early. I grab a cup of tea at 8am and then I do some photocopying and organise my notes for the day. I teach 7-8 classes a day, taking max 20 minutes for my lunch. School finishes at 4pm. I leave between 5.30pm and 6pm. I go home, make my dinner and then correct for another hour or two. I do, on average 4 hours’ worth of correcting at the weekends also. In short, you’re talking about a 55-60 hour working week. Now, before people jump on me, I know a lot of people work those hours, but my issue is with the misconception which prevails in this country regarding teachers’ working hours. There are the exceptions, of course. The slackers who do the bare minimum and leg it out the door at 4pm, but most of us are hard-working and dedicated. I love my job. I wouldn’t like to do any other, but I really wish we received the recognition we deserve. We were once good enough for the journalists and teacher-bashers when they were looking to get their points for college or when they wanted to play hurling or when they were having difficulties with a subject and we spent our free time giving them extra classes. Now, all we are good for is to be a topic for debate, a headline to sell papers. Cut us some slack.
John you sound like your under-paid and under-appreciated and most certainly overworked. sell up and move to canada your interest in Rugby could be a serious bonus over there… I personally would recommend Vancouver.
While I understand your frustration if some of the older population of teachers accepted change to their patterns of terms and conditions and accepted reform of the system then there would be an opportunity for the younger population of teachers to have employment
excellent point.
What is wrong with people? There are those who fanatically watch what others earn, how well educated they are, if they have a parking space, a better pension scheme, a nicer coffee mug and if they happen to work in any of the Public Services, oh boy!
I have absolutely no doubt there are plenty of people who are extremely well educated in our country, work very long hours and are not paid enough for what you do, you should have decent holidays, decent pension schemes and I honestly feel your wages should be a reflection of how hard you work and how well educated you are. If it takes a doctor 10 years to get where he is shouldn’t his wages reflect this effort, or a nurse 4 years, shouldn’t her wages reflect this? It seems fair to me, but of course life isn’t always fair and there are those who feel if they don’t have any of the above then nobody else should have it either.
If, and I’m saying IF here, the Public Service have it so easy then how come there wasn’t people queuing up during the boom years to become nurses, teachers, hospital porters, firemen and gardai why did everyone want the “sexy” jobs related to building, development and IT. Could it be that for a while there these jobs paid more, a lot more? For a time your average brickie, carpenter or electrician was making a fortune, oh yes this was where the money was. I know of someone who did work in the Public Service during this time but quit, her husband was a carpenter and life was good, it was never going to end, but of course it did.
During that time nobody cared about nurses, teachers or firemen, they were too busy making money, but now they quote benchmarking, pensions, hoilidays, not the 4 years that a student nurse must work for nothing or the abuse teachers get, not how the earn what they get just that the get it. How selfish we’ve become.
Good point.. It’s like whining that foreigners work in McDonalds, but no one else wanted to work there during the boom..
Being a teacher is a way more demanding job than most people here seem to be giving it credit for..
Would any of the begrudgers want to try and hold the attention of a class full of kids or teens for the day, deal with preparing for class, marking homework, unruly kids, as well as all the other paperwork, regulations and keeping an eye out for each child’s welfare?
Likewise, would they like to be a gard and run the risk of being shot or get constant abuse from drunks for doing their jobs, as well as dealing with some really nasty people?
Or nurses – changing bedpans, and dressings, doing bed baths, getting covered in blood and goodness knows what else, or in A&E – get abuse for trying to help drunk people at the weekends..
Or perhaps you would like to work in your local mental health facility, outreach program, rehab program, nursing home.. Dealing with people who are confused and may lash out at any time..
By these standards, the workers in these industries DESERVE to be paid well. They put up with a lot worse at work than any one in the private sector and get little thanks. Those whining about the (legal) perks of their jobs certainly don’t seem to appreciate this if they are trying to equate the wages with their own jobs..
It takes a certain type of person to have the heart and the mind to be able to enter into these professions, the people who are there simply for the money are easily spotted. So perhaps we should be focusing on getting rid of those in favour of people who do their jobs well.
Let’s be honest what is this kind of division is going to achieve, people in the private sector complain that those in the Public Sector have an easy ride, out of date statistics are quoted to back up inaccurate arguements, the media report all this and it gets debated up and down the country from local radio and papers to the national media, and what happens? We’ve already seen the Public Service levies and sooner or later wages and conditions will be driven lower in one sector, as the government can’t control the private sector it’ll be the Public Service who get hit, when that happens it’d be very naive to think that concerned parties won’t then use that to drive down wages in the private sector.
The net result is that everyone suffers because way back somewhere someone planted a seed of jealousy – and it grew. Now you have to wonder, who benefits from all this? The government? True, if they have a Public and Private divide and its a great excuse to reduce pay and conditions in the Public Service with the excuse that the public demand it and there’s a huge disparity between the two pay rates. What about the Private Sector though? If the Public Service have a reduction in pay and conditions why it’d only be fair in the present climate that the Private reduce their pay too in order to achieve parity. So we know who is going to loose, we all will. It’s the winners in this we have to establish.
You describe some the unpleasant sides of these jobs, but every career has its drawbacks. What those ones have in common though is that these people are helpful. It’s sad that people forget that this part of the public sector is providing vital services. Teachers are only appreciated when you have children, nurses are only thanked when you are sick, guards when you need help.
I’m not saying that I am a superior person for being a teacher. And I am definitely not in it for the money. But chastising people for wanting to be able to be financially stable when all their hard work is done is just cruel. It shows just how selfish and ungrateful this country has become.
Do you expect to be able to support yourself working 15 hours a week for 8/9 months of the year?
You, and the many others with teaching qualifications who can’t find full-time work are symptoms of the fact that teachers pay and conditions (family friendly hours, huge holidays, pension, lack of accountability etc) are so attractive. Why go for a career in IT, Finance or science when the starting salary for a permanent teaching position is so much higher and the holidays are so much better?
It’s simple, Leaving Cert, economics: the price paid for teaching services is too high and has caused supply to exceed demand.
It’s a good thing children’s education works exactly like selling stereos and houses, or your comment would make absolutely no sense!
If that’s what they teach in Leaving Cert economics no wonder the country is being ruined by economic psychopaths.
Why make such rocket science of the teaching jobs each time they’re compared with other professions? I mean for God’s sake I work with Arabs in the Middle East but I never go around telling people I am so bloody special and nobody else can do it and there is no comparison with anything.
Excellent article there is a real push to make teachers temporary and deny them a permanent position. I am not a teacher.
how many ‘former’ teachers sit in the dail? if t.d’s weremade to give up their teaching posts and pensions ,there might be more in the pot to pay for full time teachers, this double jobbing by t.d’s ,councellers and senators is just another example of the greed of the political classes. the taxpayer is paying twice for each of these greedy people to hold on to their pensions while also claiming the very lucrative dail/council pensions.
€46.85 per hour
So, with let’s say 27 children, that’s 1.73 per child per hour. Bargain!
Let’s say €500 for a 10 hour week. Nice work if you can get it.
Lets say E150 a week for three hours. For the week that you get work. Then try three weeks with no substitution.
Tax ? and your capped at 20 hrs a week. a good solicitor gets an average billable hour of 100 – 200 yo yo, is a solicitors job any harder than a teachers ? or an insurance executive earning 60k a year ?
@alan, that’s a daft comment, any trainer hired to work with a group, regardless of how many people are in the group, is paid €40 per hour.
There has been a relentless hate campaign against public sector workers and teachers in particular since the recession started. It is fuelled by a vitriolic and deliberately misleading media to justify slashing wages and conditions with no thought given to the consequences for our children. Your example of ignoring the 25% cut is only one of many and one well made. Another is to state baldly, like the professor on newstalk recently, that teachers are paid more here than in germany without also stating that we are 30% more expensive than germany. What we need to do is examine, on a daily basis, terms and conditions at the upper echelons of the private sector and how that impacts on prices here. We could start with the wages of the media presenters and how that impacts on advertising costs and drives up prices. Love to hear that one made, daily, for 3 years and see how the bitter critics above would feel about them. It is not just public sector that costs you, private sector costs you too.
Well if every second girl in the country didn’t go to college to do teaching you mightn’t have this prob…
Why do they?
Soft job.that’s why
What a ridiculous comment. A quarter of the population would then be teachers. Would bring about a great pupil-teacher ratio though!!!
And yet another ignorant comment from some ignorant moron who (I’m guessing it’s quite obvious) has never taught a day in his life. YOU get out there and teach 30 horomonal, angry, apathetic teenagers and THEN you can form an opinion about how soft the job is. Tell me, have you ever even stepped foot inside a classroom? Surely you remember those students who were disruptive and degrading to the teacher. Imagine putting up with that every time you teach? Personally, if I wanted to go into a career because I thought it was easy, I certainly would not have chosen the education sector. It’s about time this bloody myth about teaching being a cushy job be destroyed. Ipso facto, shut the hell up.
Why that’s not insulting to women at all Christian is it? If teaching was so cushty and soft, surely every second man in the country would also be training to be a teacher. Do us all a favour and go back to your cave!
Lisa, like most ordinary public servants Teachers pay 14.5% of their gross weekly salary to their pension fund. This is more than most private sector workers pay, and before you say private workers don’t have the gold plated pension that public servants have just remember that private sector workers can work all their lives, never contribute a cent to a pension but are entitled to â
And what’s PRSI payment for???
There is no argument for Teachers here
Even part-timers are overpaid at that rate posted in a previous comment
Part time is the key to what you said. There is no security. Ten hours one week could be three hours next week could be nothing for a month. Try living on that.
They are overpaid but the trouble is that the cost of living is too high in Ireland so people on 35k or even at 50k are finding it hard to live. The cost of living is high largely because the stupid Greens have imposed hikes on the energy prices, the government is allowing the protected professional class to continue overcharging for their services and of course let us not forget that even in times of severe crisis and private sector deflation the government managed an inflation in prices of of public services.
People on 50k are finding it hard to live!? The phrase ‘Living beyond their means” comes to mind. I’d love to be on 50k a year. I think I could live very, very comfortably on that wage. 50k is a huge wage as far as I am concerned.
Really? Not if you have a young family. 50k nets 3k per month. After you’ve paid a typical Dublin mortgage and creche for two kids you have about 800 left to live on. This is w/o utilities and insurances, once this is paid you have about 400 left for groceries, clothing, holidays, car and savings. Maybe if you give kids away you could ‘live within your means’.
or maybe dom, like many antoher person, you might have to GO WITHOUT A HOLIDAY! I agree with the above comment, 50k is massive, and many families would be delighted to have to live on that. And that’s including all the above mentioned costs of living, some of us have been living on tight budgets for years, it sounds like a bit of an eye-opener for others. welcome to our world.
Why is the author of this article waitressing then? According to you all she needs to do is go without a few things.
Spot the non-parents. This is the first mention of holidays in this post, and I’ll assume it’s from someone who isn’t raising small children. I remember being on 50k. A whole other world.
There is a distinct lack of accountability in relation to teaching in this country, All of these new graduates would have jobs if there was proper and maintained assessment for existing staff. This could rule out the wheat from the chaff. And believe me there is alot of Chaff in teaching. There are so many examples of unqualified for the subject teachers dotted around every single second level in the country that its no wonder why many of our students have difficulty with basic maths.
The system is broken, crying about wages isnt going to save it, but ditching those who are simply handing into a job because they were in the school since splash will make huge in roads.
But alas like any debate, the whole Pub S V Prv S comes out heavy on either side. I wish this graduate would see where the real issue lies.
I’d love to know the basis for these comments about ‘unaccountability’. First there is a solid system if inspection the results of which are publicly available on the DES website, inspection of subjects, of management and of the whole school community. It’s thorough and generally positive. Second schools and teachers ate accountable to parents and students. For more than ten years now a system of registering a complaint against avteacher has existed. If someone has an issue this is the way to deal with it.
Qualified teachers aren’t the problem here, rather it’s the hollowing out of the profession by increasing the pupil/teacher ratio and the reduction by 12-14% of the staring salary for newly qualified teachers. The industrialisation of Irish education continues apace.
Jesus Fintan listen to your self ,you are clearly not part of the solution if you believe everything you just wrote.
Come on take your head out of your ass please and dont defend your colleagues for their inadequate service over the past .
@Jaci
I’d love to know how promoting the inspection process and the complaints procedure puts my head in my ass. School generally are well run, positive places to learn. Too many people extrapolate their own negative experiences into systemic failure of the education system.
So basically this column is the heart-wrenching story of someone who is working two part time jobs instead of one full time job. The poor thing.
I know plenty of people who work two part time jobs to sustain themselves. Let me know and I’ll tell them when it’s their turn to write here.
Also the title is misleading. There isn’t a single full time teacher who NEEDS to have have another job on the side to support themselves.
So ‘older’ workers (‘lifers’???), who have also earned their qualifications and are lucky enough to have permanent jobs to pay their bills, should move aside to make room for unemployed teachers?
What a novel idea.
Does this happen in many other professions and in other ccountries?
Yes, in the private sector there’s a traditional Stephens’ Day cull in which the upper management hunt long-term staff on horseback.
I am a college graduate with a masters. I work in the private sector earning about half of what my counterparts would have earner three years ago. (And considerably less than a graduate teacher) I had to intern for six months, and work for free, before I secured my position. I am paid to work 40 hours a week, but in actual fact really work over 60 hours, often weekends and late nights. Times are tough, jobs are scarce, so I, like many others, just get on with it.
Teachers, of course, play an integral part in our society. And I accept that teachers on a temporary contract are struggling. But, guess what, so are hundreds of thousands of other people! This attitude that, because you decided to be a teacher, the country owes you a permanent job with lucrative pension, drives me crazy!
Also, just to clarify, if some one in the private sector was to receive the same lump sum and pension on retirement as a public worker, they would have to pay four times the contribution of a public worker.
Folks, just a quick clarification/reminder: we’re having difficulty at the moment where our mobile apps can’t handle comments including the Euro symbol (€) – basically any text after this symbol is being stripped out, which can make your comments sadly meaningless.
it’s a bug we’re working on but we’d ask mobile users, in the meantime, to use the E symbol or the full word ‘euro’, if possible, so that your comments don’t get butchered by our systems.
Apologies, as always, for the hassle this might cause you.
I was a Primary school teacher in a 2 teacher school for 35 years…I hate to hear people knocking teachers. I was often overworked but never overpaid.
Bear in mind, people who point out that schools have long Summer holidays, that these holidays are created firstly with the children in mind. Teachers just happen to be part of the system and therefore benefit from the holidays.
Within the classroom teachers play many roles … educators, substitute parents during school time, psychologists, liasion persons between home and school. On many occasions we spend time listening to parents and how their problems affect their children…we are many things to all people.
If you go to your Dr or consultant would you receive a written report for free? No I dont think so , and teachers write school reports for free for each and every child.
Many hours went into preparation for class work after school, during weekends and during holidays. Many hours were spent pleading with SENOs for hours for the child in need of extra help…
I could write a complete column on work outside teaching hours.
I often thought about other peoples jobs. complete with perks, but the sheer joy of watching a child’s face when they realised that they could read independently outweighed jobs in any other area.
So dont knock your teachers. We are worthy of respect, worth every penny in payment and every hour of holiday.
Try a day in a classroom with 26 children ..it takes a special type of person to be able to do this job.
Good luck to all the newly qualified teachers looking for work…
That is such a ‘teacher’ thing to say "I write reports for free"
No you bloody don’t. It’s part of the job you get well paid for.
€38,550…… I have an honours degree, a masters and have worked 10 years in IT. I have no golden pension, no parking space, no 16 weeks holidays and could be let go in the morning. I’ve only recently started earning just above this figure. So does that make me underpaid?
Does this make you underpaid? With an honours and masters degree and 10 years experience in IT, if it was up to me I’d say yes, you probably are in this country. I have to ask if you enjoy working in IT, maybe not the job, but actually working in IT? You obviously studied a subject, presumably IT related, for an honours degree then went on for a masters degree. This is a considerable achievement. Are you saying now you made a mistake and should have been a Public Servant, a teacher perhaps?
On the face of it, yes.
Under worked and over paid. . . . For years teachers held every parent in the country over a barrel. Maybe by taking a few months less holidays would allow you earn more and take the pressure of working parents who at present have the extra burden of child care every time a mid-term break, religious holiday, lengthy summer holiday, Christmas holiday etc etc . . . . . . So no sympathy here, teachers have had it too good for too long . . . . And the countries literacy ranking in the world shows out dated work practices and of course teachers will expect renumeration if god forbid their asked to modernise or up skill
Your child is your responsibility. Teachers do not provide a day care service for you. If you didn’t want to pay child care costs then you shouldn’t have had children.
The logical conclusion to be drawn from your comment is that you want your kids to be in school all year round with no holidays or breaks Ian! Teachers are not babysitters! I’m not sure they have it so good – for every class they do they have preparation and corrections etc. – not to mention deaingl with disciplinine issues and demanding parents. If you ask me they deserve more respect!
As noted by JimBOB Hillbill, teachers are not there to babysit children. Furthermore, children in both primary and secondary school need holidays in order to have a break from learning and prepare for the next term of learning. It would be damaging to children if we kept them in school right throughout the year and gave them, say, three weeks holiday. They are not adults.
The rates of teacher pay are on the ASTI website http://www.asti.ie
For full-time teachers appointed prior to Janurary 2011 the starting salary is €38,550 (including an honours degree and HDip allowances)
This rises to €67,192.
The maximum number of teaching hours per year is 735.
A pension of €33,500 is payable after 40 years service. (reduced pro-rata if fewer years worked)
Six months maternity leave on full pay is available for each child.
ah, thank you emile – facts, at last!
Hi Emile,
Very few teachers actually work the required 40 years so very few get a full pension. If you think about it most people leave college in their early 20′s they then have teacher training. They will most likely then get a part time/temporary position for a few years before being made permanent full-time ie years that count towards your salary, so not all teachers are entitled to a full pension. Those that manage to get up to the maximum salary do so if they have a ridiculous number of years service. I taught for one year several years ago, it was my most stressful job – I was only substituting so did not have to put in half the work of my colleagues – preparing classes takes a lot of time, correcting homework of 30 students for every 40 minute class you teach takes a lot of time. Most good teachers also make themselves available to students outside class time, teach extra curricular activities free of charge. When I was teaching whenever I had a class off and went into the staff room it was full of people preparing work, correcting work etc. all of this is outside their scheduled hours. It is not like a regular 9-5 you have to bring home work to do in the evenings and on weekends.
Fair enough those are facts, but they are not indicative of the majority of teachers who qualified in the past few years.. Most of whom either can’t find work, or work with none of the fancy benefits mentioned above because they’re only temping.
Which was the point of view raised in the article.
I agree with the author, teachers are one of the most important jobs out there and we need fresh, vital, passionate teachers in order to get kids interested in learning..
We all remember being taught by dinosaurs, and quite a few of them were great for inducing sleep, perhaps not so beneficial to the stated purpose though..
(and don’t get me started on the way they’re handling the special needs assistants!!)
Collective name for teachers:
a WHINGE of teachers.
My sister was teaching for a while there is so much work that goes on after a days teaching I would not do the job for twice the money..
“A witty saying proves nothing” – Voltaire.
This has little to do with your comment, by the way.
Collective noun for private sector workers: an envy
Maybe she should get a full time job
Several people have alluded to a streak of jealousy underlying the attacks on public sector workers, because of the perceived (often inaccurately) pay, perks and conditions.
It strikes me that there’s another aspect to the jealousy, relating to status. A massive chunk of private sector workers are little more than drones – however hard they work, ultimately the job they do is unimportant. Either they can be replaced relatively easily by a randomer off the street, or the output of their work has minimal impact on the world. If they didn’t turn up for work in the morning, apart from their empty desk nobody would take any heed. If a nurse, teacher, fireman etc didn’t turn up then people would notice because their work has a genuine impact on the world.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to all private sector workers, but there are plenty of ten out there stuck in essentially dead-end nonjobs, and they take that out on public servants.
Your stupidity is only exceeded by your ignorance
Great that you can engage in the debate in an informative and constructive manner Paul. Well done.
As it goes, the elephant in the room since this whole artificial divide was created is that the public sector are still doing jobs that people need, some more than ever, and being treated as some sort of pariah for doing so, while the decline in spending is simply due to people prioritising what they need over what they do not.
So the point, however tactlessly put, deserves better than summary dismissal.
Maybe Its just me that went to the poorest school in the country I dunno. but as far as im concerned for every amazing teacher with passion and care and serious commitment there are 5 others that are unenthusiastic ,fed up and basically not doing the job that they are meant to be doing . Im not trying to bash teachers but there were quite a few teachers in my secondary school that were Social Retards, and i honestly believe they should not have been there as educators.
Kind Regards.
Mike
Mike your dead right my Secondary school was full of wagons and those wagons are still there .Years ago my Mother used to tell me about the Nuns, now to be fair it wasnt that bad cause we never got hit but apart from the abolition of corporal punishment we havent advanced to much . The majority of the teachers i had didnt have a clue nor did they want to be there. Fair enough i did have one or two that were diamonds but the system is fucked and here we have a blog for teachers defending the shite job there doing ,its hilarious. I thank god have my Degree in Arts but a lot of my friends dropped out because of the teachers and are in there twentys now and going to college.
So Thanks to the Majority of the Teachers in Ireland the education system is fucked. and God Bless the good ones who are worth there weight in Gold . you know who you are the ones taking offence to these comments are obviously the bad ones ……….and thats a fact.
Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. A good teacher would have clarified that.
The truth is that the vast majority of the Public Service get paid an ordinary amount, those with degrees like teachers and nurses get a reasonable wage, nothing to write home about, while others like firemen, hospital workers, local authority workers and gardai get paid a wage that is absolutely nothing to write home about. All MUST pay a Public Service Levy, along with the levies everyone must pay, for the privilige of working for the state and pay into a pension scheme, they don’t get a pension for nothing and don’t have a choice about joining the scheme. As I said, if others felt these jobs were so desireable then why didn’t they flock to the Public Service during the boom years, most went to where the money was – at least then, but now that the boom days are over the other fields suddenly seem greener. Now they criticise a teacher their kids abuse, a nurse they puke over in A&E, the fireman saving lives, the garda when they dial 999. They want the money, the holidays, the pension but I don’t hear any volunteering to do the extra 20 hours unpaid teaching work, or clean bedpans and get puked on in A&E and maybe get assaulted as a nurse, I don’t even want to think of the dangers firemen and gardai face and I’m sure there’s a nasty side to other Public Service jobs, not everyone sits behind a desk and gets paid a small fortune. The truth is some people are lucky enough to have a nice job, Public or Private Service, and good luck to them, but don’t criticise everyone else if you’re not one. Most of us these days are just trying to pay the next bill, if you see someone you THINK has an easier job, or more money, maybe a better pension don’t blame them for that, did you see nurses, teachers and firemen criticising the pay, pensions and holidays of others during the boom?
No you misunderstand, we mean that you’re over paid for what you do! Big difference
Touché
The top three benefits of teaching:
June
July
August
Treu Ronald, these are thomonths when you will see teachers yachting and playing golf. *sarc*
It amazes me that teachers are getting such a hard time when we need them the most. Teachers are front-line staff much like nurses and Garda.
During these economic times we need more investment in front line public services tonged us out of the hole we are in. Not further cuts creating more and more disheartened public servants who will only lose interest in their jobs and have a negative impact over all.
We need cuts in how these services are run and who manages them. We need drastic cuts in these areas not only in salary but in pensions and headcount. The IMF sees this they know our public service is top heavy and are asking for these areas tone chopped. However our corrupt infrastructure will ensure their cronies and pals will remain the in status quo and the frontline staff will bare the brunt of cuts and the general publics disdain.
In my opinion the public sector needs to adopt private sector methods of performance related reviews and pay. So those who excel and work damn hard are justly rewarded and those who are trench weary are given more admin and managerial duties where their experience can enhance and improve processes for the ever growing demand demand for cheaper and better services from the public.
Sorry for spelling mistakes stupid iPhone lol. I’m a private sector worker btw.
I feel sorry for that lady who finds herself in her situation. However she fails to tell us her hourly rate. Bet it’s not 8.65e / hour. As for the other reply regarding how bad the job is, if you feel that way either get out or do your job as there are plenty more to take your place.
I agree teachers must get so bored teaching the same old thing year in year out, sure they could do it in their sleep! They have nobody to check up on them, and basically unless they are seriously bad they stay in their jobs, some of the teachers in my kids schools were truly awful and they are still there. Personally I think they have it easy, if you don’t want to try to control a class of teenagers, or empty a bedpan, don’t do the job! Loads and loads of people work overtime and don’t get paid for it (I do!).
Working in the public sector is becoming increasing difficult for young graduates starting a career. Despite our state services relying on the quality of it’s employees, the rights of these employees are being consistently ignored and steam rolled by government departments. One example of this is newly qualified nurses, having completed a 4 year degree, being paid â
Is Paul Lanigan keeping the debate going or is he really as ill informed as he makes out? Or maybe you just dont like teachers Paul??
Secondary school teachers teach about 22 hours per week. So plenty of time to correct papers in a 40 hour week. The only reason you need to take work home is that you laze about in the staff room between classes.
Your ignorance is astonishing. You think all we have to do outside our class-contact time is correct?! Right. I’ll just clear that one up for you. What about all the time we spend (not sitting in the staffroom!!) dealing with disciplinary issues because a student in your tutor class was misbehaving in another class? What about all the phonecalls we have to make to parents? The reports we have to write to try (albeit pointlessly) to get resource hours for a student? What about all the planning we have to do? Typing up new notes because the syllabus has changed again or because we simply want to tailor the notes to the subject and classes we have this year? What about meeting parents? What about the time we spend training football/rugby/hockeybasketball? The debates and foreign language table quizzes we bring our students to in the evenings? The seminars we attend (in our own time!!) to help us to develop even better teaching skills?
To say that all a teacher does is teach for 22 hours and then correct a few copies, not only displays your blatant ignorance on this topic, it also shows you up to be extremely patronising and infantile.
Paul you’re dead right it seems that all these teachers have blinkers on. Telling lies about there potential work load rather than the actual one . So it is apparent that teachers are very much Like Cops and Nurses to the extent that they always back each other up and Never admit any fault or claim responsibility for when the system breaks down ….Typical Irish Bullshit!
If teachers are so unhappy what about the preschool teachers who are now required to do the same amount of planning, observation and assessment as infant primary school teachers, using the same Aistear curriculum for anything from between the minimum wage to ten euro an hour. They are increasingly required to have a degree thanks to the ecce scheme (with no support funding for this) and have had their hours cut and their yearly hours cut to 38 weeks a year making the job hardly worth doing for what is essentially pocket money. They get no pensions or entitlements and all because they are working with children a year younger than the primary school teachers – many of these children who would have been starting school at four before the introduction of the scheme. Pity where its due and its not due to the teachers.
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