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Last week, Forbes contributor Tim Worstall caused widespread controversy with an article referencing ‘Irish jokes’, which many commenters accused of anti-Irish prejudice.
Here John Verling argues that yes, the UK media make mistakes – but our international relationship has matured enormously. Just look at the Olympics, he writes:
THE IRISH ECONOMY is in the doldrums and unemployment is high. Luckily for us we have that valve on the pressure cooker – emigration – with Britain top of the departure list. The record crowds at our airports after Christmas only act as confirmation.
When I left on the 1980s I was excited about living in London. I was young and life was still an adventure. At times it could be tough for the Irish in Britain; the IRA bombings made you careful of your accent in public. My local was attacked after the Downing Street mortar attacks. The Prevention of Terrorism Act allowed you to be held for seven days without charge and I still shudder remembering the lines of heavily armed policemen that would greet you off a plane.
However, even though conscious of my nationality, and despite the terrorist activity, I was always made very welcome in the UK. One of the first things I noticed was the support Irish teams got from British people. Something I would never have witnessed at home in Ireland – the reverse in fact. Some of it was on the condescending side, but this was during the Troubles when we more famous in the UK for blowing things up.
Feeling inferior
We have an inferiority complex when dealing with Britain, as if we assume they are constantly laughing at us, looking down at us. In reality we need to grow up and get on with our own lives. There, I said it. Yes, the lack of knowledge amongst the English media of Irish affairs annoys me, but then what are we doing that is so great anyway? (That attitude still needs to change though, especially from the more right wing press who like to put down former colonial subjects.) A more confident Irish population need only ignore these newspaper columns, or maybe learn from the barbs.
It came as a surprise to me last summer when the British media spoke of the possibility of the Olympics as being another ‘great British failure story’. They wrote of how the transport system would crash under the strain, of long queues, ticketing problems, of how the whole country would grind to a halt and they would be the laughing stock of the world.
Indeed, when they flew the wrong Korean flag at an early, pre opening-ceremony football match it was viewed as just the start of it all going wrong. The British not being confident in themselves? On the world stage, too?
A new one on us – but it’s probably always been that way. In Ireland we were so set on proving ourselves that we never spotted the weakness. The opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics helped Britain become happy with itself, warts and all. Britain grew up that night. The public loved the subsequent success of their athletes because they saw how hard they worked for it. No longer was it some natural result of being British that you won gold.
Improved relations
The strange thing was how we in Ireland joined in with all of this. Did we recognise the phenomenon of Britain becoming happy with itself? Are we becoming a bit happier with ourselves, maturing a bit? True, the Good Friday agreement has improved our relations with Britain over the past 12 years or so, but Irish people openly cheering a Brit home was new to me. That inferiority complex we developed from being a colonial subject might eventually be lifting, in line with the decline of the superiority complex of our former colonial masters.
Britain had to realise that there is a world outside its borders, and we too had to make the same realisation. More importantly, maybe we both needed to find our place in the world before we could be happy with each other.
It has taken a long time and there is probably more work to be done, but the London 2012 Olympics is up there with the Queen’s visit as a benchmark for proper growth in our maturing international relationship. Will our love (or should I say acceptance) of all things British continue or will we fall back into old habits? We will always be neighbours and rivals in what we do, but maybe no longer begrudging or belittling each other’s successes. After all, both nations love sport – so maybe we should not be too surprised that it has brought us closer together.
Having said that, it will take me a long time before I would cheer for a team that has John Terry in it.
John Verling is a father of three children and is from County Cork. He lived in London during the late 1980s, before returning to Ireland. He writes a blog called Verlingsweek.
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I’ve been living in Ireland nearly nine years and found Irish people very friendly bar a couple of people who seemed to think us British knew or even cared about Northern Ireland. Most British people have no interest and would love to see the back of it…we would love to see an united Ireland again.
You know what Paul your right and i dont mean that in a patronising way.Every British person ive met has been as nice as you could imagine and the majority of my friends are from Birmingham,London or Glasgow its unfair to tarnish a whole people with the same brush.The media wants us to hate each other with sensationalist headlines.As for the political end of it if you have an informed opinion thats your right,the problem is uninformed opinions!!
What about divide and concur!
I lived in London when the IRA conducted its ‘take it to the mainland’ campaign & not once did I have to worry about my accent in public, I was always astounded at how little the English knew about the troubles & an example of this was that everyone that I spoke with thought IAN PAISLEY was the leader of the IRA. I did not look on this as ignorance, to me it was just how much they did not care about NI & only caring about their transport system being shut down on a regular basis at peak times.
Shows a total lack of education, but in fairness if Ireland had committed as many crimes as England have in the past I’d be pretty quite about it too!
” The British not being confident in themselves?”
It’s the British being self critical. That’s not a flaw.
“Britain had to realise that there is a world outside its borders”
Britain always realised that, Britain used to own most of it.
YOU MEAN “STOLE” MOST OF IT!!!
No.
You can never move into the future if you hold onto the past-
MVM-2013
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”
– George Santayana
A broken clock tells the correct time, twice a day……
Wise,
Adebayo
Excellent article by John. The British are trying to move forward, shake off the old colonial label. Whoever doesn’t see that it’s because they don’t want to. I know I’ll get a zillion red thumbs and probably insults but sometimes I think Ireland probably should have remained part of Britain when I see the state the country is in. Back slapping regional politics, corruption and the Catholic Church for some unknown reason still get a say in state affairs after all they’ve contributed. It’s an opinion, I’m not trying to provoke anybody.
Does the counter go to a zillion :P Thats your opinion and your perfectly entitled to it,i shall abstain from any thumbing.
Hey Dermot I found this video on YouTube a while back – seems to back up your point re staying part of the UK!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmUiUXMEyRw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Fantastic John. Brilliant skit, embarrassing but to a degree so true. It saddens me, with the excellent people in this great Island, we are are still being run by complete fools. Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland (Greece is in another league of it’s own) all corrupt, all broke and all with the same common denominator, guess which? Could be a coincidence, but I don’t think so. David Savage (Savage Eye, rte 2) has this country totally summed up. Thanks again the video is class.
And things are in some way better in the UK outside the “home counties”, particularly Wales and the formerly industrial North? As if the system of patronage and heirarchy isn’t alive and kicking over there. Aside from the obvious geographical confusion, I can guarantee you that things would be much worse now had we “remained part of Britain”, but you’re entitled to your view.
More on point, I’ve always seen the McSavage, that loveable scion to the Andrews Fianna Fáil dynasty, as emblematic of the worst kinds of Irish self loathing inferiority complex. He speaks to a certain kind of thinking, alright, but not mine.
Sure we all should have let Hitler win at least the trains would have run on time!
Ireland was pushed out of the Union to a great degree, by Unionists. The British wanted to grant Home Rule , but as we’ll all be reminded , the UVF was formed 100 yrs ago this year , to prevent “Home Rule is Rome Rule”, which incidentally turned out to be true. The other factor that pushed populist opinion was the intention of the British to conscript Irishmen into WW1. Unfortunate timing that led to the Sinn Fein landslide victory in the 1918 election. Its all history now but a few on both sides are choosing tribalism as a reason to continue killing. Even at the heights of the troubles Northern Ireland was seldom number one on the British agenda. This is a small island with a relatively small population, its made smaller by small minds .
I noticed for the first time that Irish people got behind British athletes in the Olympics like Mo Farah, Jess Ennis etc. I had never experienced this before and thought this was a big indicator as to how far our relationship with our neighbours has come. When I watched the opening ceremony in my local park in East London, I was struck by the very very loud cheer for the Irish athletes as they came on screen by people watching the big screen.
I find my position in England as an Irish person very comfortable….and even to an advantage at times.
Completely agree Anne. Haven’t had any major issue here, the only place I wanted to move when I left Dublin.
Same here Mark….never had an interest in living in Oz, NZ, Canada etc unlike most of my peers. Close to home, friendly people, (relatively) good job opportunities and a great chance in gaining experience in your chosen field. London is a vibrant multicultural city and I honestly can’t see myself living anywhere else at the moment (it may change after ten years of Tube-travelling though..!)
Not everyone did
You don’t need to tell me, Chris…just a chat with some Irish people living on Holloway Road or up in NW London about being Irish back in the day will tell you otherwise. But I’m speaking from personal experience and (thankfully) from a different era of immigration to Britain.
Your not missing much in Oz anyway,unwatchable television,sunshine…thats basically it.
Oz never appealed given the number of scrotes heading over, plus I get sun burnt…….
Get back into your cave Mooney. Anybody who supports terrorists placing car bombs in public streets murdering and maiming innocent people is certainly sick. These sub human beasts were rightly condemned by all right thinking people. There are no excuses whatsoever that could go anywhere near justifying such barbarous acts.
OK, i am biting with curiosity … where did i once mention that i supported the killing of innocent civilians in my comment. In all truth, there are none so deaf, as those who do not want to hear. I know i should not feed the Troll, but you are levelling accusations at me that are totally untrue and i would like to understand the basis.
I am from the North. I saw civilians shot in the back by British Army. We have seen that the vast majority of the British army/British Paramilitary victims were Irish civilians (over 80%), almost 1000 deaths.
The IRA murdered an equivalent number of civilians. I am not arguing that point at all. The British security forces and the IRA were mass murderers. The British murders were state sanctioned. You seem to forget that. The Irish were the ones being oppressed from 1925 onwards by a British supported administration. Did you not know that? The IRA campaign only started in earnest in 1969, after civil rights marches were banned.
Did you know that?
I genuinely believe the only was of moving on, as the author of the column suggests that we should do, is to have a National Peace and Reconciliation Program. All sides must play their part. The Loyalist and Republican paramilitaries have agreed to support the Program, if the two governments also part-take in it. For some reason, the British and Irish Governments wont support the process. Have you any ideas why?
And what do you think of
the loyalists rioting at the moment oh wise Padraig?
Toorkel, if the IRA campaign was a terrorist one what would you call the previous 800 years in Ireland or does your education only include the killing of English men and women?
So what the English did to cause the famine should be just forgotten?
You mean what a bunch of dead people did 250 odd years ago should be forgotten? Or are they all immortal?
Cal did you support these freedom fighters?
And also Cal for a man who’s demanding this “reconciliation” program, I recall you being opposed to the Queens visit, which would clearly have formed part of any “reconciliation program” given the magnitude of such an event.
No Alex we should reject Tony Blair’s apology on a famine that affected our ancestors 200 years ago. We should all go on a hunger strike and promote the destruction of Britain.
Mr Liberal, i did not object to the Queens visit, i objected to the timing and effort around it. I said at the time, that it would make more sense to have a Truth and Reconcilliation program in place, before we invited the Queen over. I still believe that my comment at the time was fair. If we could have used the Queens visit as a reward to both the British and Irish Government in response to the Truth and Reconcilliation program, you could be damn sure we would not be having the type of riots we are having in the North at present. The dissidents probably wouldnt be planning the murder of British army members, North or South of the Border, and the PSNI would not be under the type of threats that they are facing.
“Michael Collins arrived in Dublin Castle on 16th January 1922 to receive the handover of the Castle on behalf of the new Irish Free State Government. Lord Lieutenant FitzAlan is reported to have said, “You are seven minutes late Mr. Collins” to which he received the reply “We’ve been waiting over seven hundred years, you can have the extra seven minutes”.
In my minds eye, we could have used the National Peace and Reconciliation Process/Program to really bring our peoples closer together, instead of leaving a wedge of unresolved injustices by all sides in the conflict. It could have concluded with a State visit, with no threat of violence by any side towards the Queen and the Irish head of state. Instead, we spent 22 million on security, just 9 months ago. We now have a budget shortfall of 35 million to fund out Gardai.
It was a case of putting the cart before the horse, inviting the Queen over when we did.
No. And we should prosecute all those involved.
What about driving into a stadium while a match is on and shooting people at random is that ok in your book or is that a terrorist act?
Kevin. My point is that people here are saying that the IRA killed people for no reason and were unprovoked, regardless of the time scale millions of Irish people died over a long time and as a result of being oppressed by the English freedom fighters emerged to fight for the people
Alex, anyone who plants bombs in pubs/streets/businesses with the sole intention of murder and mayhem is a terrorist. If you paid attention in history you would have realised that the “English” were invited here by the King of Leinster in the 12th Century by Diarmaid MacMurrough or Diarmaid of the Foreigners ad he was known. Without doubt the English were responsible for atrocities here, Oliver Cromwell that horrible bas$%rd laid waste to this country during his campaign. These events took place hundreds of years ago however. The IRA campaign was in our living memory, the modern age. They were butchers and Sadists, nothing more. That goes for any and every paramilitary group that was involved. Billy Wright was a butcher too and a terrorist. Anyone who kills innocents through planting bombs is a terrorist. End of.
Torkeel, i agree with you, the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, Belturbet bombings had all the hall-marks of a terrorist state organised operation. It was because of these two incidents and the Bloody Sunday/Ballymurphy massacres, that so many turned to the IRA to fight against the Terrorists who perpetrated those events. For once we are agreed.
Unfortunately, the terrorists and the colluders behind all the massacres i just recounted have never acknowledged their wrong-doings. Whats even worse, their colluders put the victims families under special branch watch for almost 5 years after the massacres in some cases.
For once we are agreed … And in some cases, you fight terrorism with terrorism, but i don’t agree with targetting civilians. The IRA had approx 45% civilian murder rate. It was not acceptable. But compare that to the British civilian murder rate of over 80% (nearly all Irish) and you get the jist of who the real terrorists were.
You mention car bombs etc. The Shankill Butchers did a lot worse. They were supported by the Police. I dont mean to be graphic, but they picked up Irish in Irish areas, and literally tortured them to death. They pulled the victms finger nails out, one by one, then sliced off their thumbs, and then they ‘spread-eagled them’. If you want to know what ‘spread-eagling is, look it up on the internet, its too gross to depict here. I mean, its sick. The Police knew who the Shankill Butchers were for 3 years and they were never stopped. It wasn’t until an English Policeman came over to invesigate the murders, were they stopped. He found out who the ‘gang-members’ were, within 1 week of arriving in Belfast.
Please don’t talk about Terrorism to me, unless you lived there yourself and experienced the ‘Terror’ yourself.
So to recap, IRA are terrorist and the English are a peaceful nation,who only invade other countries when invited and move the native people off their land, for their own gain.leaving every country in chaos fighting with each other. regardless of the time frame would you not call their acts, “acts of terror”? From the time of their arrival on this island to Bloody Sunday I would call them terrorist!
Cal you are off your head if you think a “reconciliation” program would have erased the dissident threat and removed any threat of a visit from the Queen after such a program had been undertaken. Do you have a crystal ball?
Just another republican dreamer.
What about Irish state sponsored terrorism, Haughey and the old boys running runs.
The Brits committed some awful acts we all agree that but so did the IRA. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
the âEnglishâ were invited here
Alex, although I disagree with cal1′s statistics he and torkeel’s sentiments I would roughly agree with. This ’800 years of oppression’ lark gets tiresome. Ireland has had a turbulent history, often at the hands of it’s nearest neighbour, but this view of history as all being about big bad England oppressing the poor Irish for no other reason than being Irish is specious. As torkeel correctly points out, the ‘Irish’ (who were not a united people and fighting amongst themselves) actually invited the Normans across. They eventually integrated. A lot of history is tied up with wider European events in which Ireland was often an unfortunate player. It may interest you that a lot of the events that happened in Ireland also happened in England & Scotland (clearances, religious persecution, oppression following rebellion etc). In Scotland following the Jackobite rebellion of 1745 tartan and kilts were banned, as were bagpipes, and the clan system broken up. But like Ireland this wasn’t just a case of ‘them vs. us’ it is often ‘like vs like’. In creating a national identity its often easy to point to a ‘foreign invader or oppressor’ and unite the populace against them. This is ingrained in certain parts of the Irish psyche as can be evidenced in these posts. Personal observation is that a lot of people in the UK are blissfully unaware of the details of Irish history and how its intertwined with the UK. Nor do they care, having generally favourable views of Ireland (if any). Just saying.
Mark, you are entitled to your view, as am I. To me, (and i may be a ‘dreamer’), it is better to have the National Truth and Reconciliation forum for all the victims and the perpetrators to meet face to face. There were no innocent parties in the conflict. The Irish Government colluded on many murders. We have had folks who lost loved ones in both the Belturbet/Dublin/Monaghan bombings, all leave comments on the Journal in the past, giving their experience at the hands of the Irish ‘justice system’ in the aftermath of those massacres. We have had friends of Detective Garda McCable leave their comments here too. These are just some of the victims of the Troubles in the South.
There are many many times that in the North (both British and Irish) who have never been able to get any form of justice. Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela and others involved in the post apartheid era in South Africa, have talked about the victims sense of improved closure through the South African Truth and Reconcilliation program. There was an extremely limited effort at running one in the North, after the Good Friday Agreement, and it was facilitated by Bishop Desmond Tutu. Michael Stone (mass murderer) sat and face some of his own victims families. The families who attended, said that while they could never fully forgive him, they did finally get some closure. Michael Stone (Nutjob and all as he is), actually apologized to the families. He admitted that he was wrong, and that what he represented was wrong.
The trial effort at this program fell apart in the North, as a direct result of the British and Irish Governments refusing to supply the names of any of the perpetrators to the Forum facilitators, or the release of papers which would admit any liability.
It is very very sad for all the families involved (both Irish and British victims). The Loyalists and the Republican groups have continually said they will support it, if the Governments admit their part.
Can you imaging, if the program ran its full course, and all aides acknowledged the hurt and pain they inflicted on the other side. Imagine, the Queen and our President, along with representatives of the Paramilitaries all standing together admitting that the violent path was the wrong option and that no one side was justified in the actions they took.
Yeah, i might be a dreamer, but having that sort of acknowledgement would do a lot more for the overall peace and reconciliation on this Island, than continuing to use the history as a Political Football when it suits one side or the other.
We all want peace! I guess people in England either don’t know or care what happened in the past. No one can honestly comment on what is right and what is wrong in the north unless we have lived there, at least cal has a dream of a process of peace. Dream on cal I’m with you!
Apologies Damocles, you are correct. They were Normans. These invaders were the Fitzgeralds, Butlers, Burkes, Lucey’s etc….all considered Irish families and have been for hundreds of years.
Cal. Kingsmill, Canary Wharf, Warrington, Enniskillen, Guilford, Birmingham…were these legitimate targets or were they terrorist acts or are the only victims “Republican”? You try and circle a square all you like but the fact of the matter is, the IRA and any offshoot organisation were and are terrorists. There is no excuse for their vile actions.
There you are mentioning the “Irish in Irish areas” I asked you earlier who are the “Irish”. You can’t or won’t answer. I would love to hear your definition. You say I never lived in Northern Ireland. You are right, I never did. But I have plenty of family in Northern Ireland. I witnessed the violence first hand in Portadown on a couple of occasions. So don’t use the how would you know line….I know a lot more than you would be comfortable with!
Yeah. Why don’t they bog off back to Normandy eh?
Ha! Indeed Damocles….and if Cal went home to Belfast…
Torkeel, there are none so blind, as those that don’t want to see. I responded to your repeated question above, but it summary, the Irish in the North, are the people living in the North that conside themselves Irish first. Why did you not answer any of.net questions regarding the reconciliation program, instead of making personal Jibes.
Torkeel your a great man for pointing out IRA attacks, what are your views on the attacks by the brittish army? I’m sure cal can list them for us again if you like you seem to avoid commenting directly. Do you think they were acts of terror ?
Good article John,I do believe both the irish and English have moved on a lot in the last 20 years,let the past be and look to the future,however them scobies up the north like to drag it up all the time even though none of them probably never go to mass but yet still fight for there religion
James these scobies as you call them are still colonized by the British, it is a little more difficult for them to forget about it than us. I don’t see what going to Mass has to do with it.
Anglican don’t go to Mass.
Of course Anglicans go to mass.
Jame Doyle I resent your comment! its not about religion going to mass or your faith its about living your life without the threat of fear, intimation, bigotry, hatred, etc. why don’t you visit a facebook page called “mainland loyalists standing with our brothers” and see for yourself if the Irish and the English have moved on..because I certainly don’t, loyalists in Northern Ireland, England and Scotland hate IRISH people to the core and its actually quite frightening to think that that much hatred exists today, they idolise the KKK and Nazi’s.
Nice bit of racism there
I’m not sure how this article could be considered anti-Irish.
Its the linked article that is,i was confused too lol
And even the linked article isn’t that bad – it just slags Irish newspapers’ proposed (and, it has to be said, somewhat daft) copyright policy, not Irish people.
Thanks a mill!
Things have never been better between Ireland and the U.K let it continue as it benefits both so much.
“We have an inferiority complex when dealing with Britain” – this is complete rubbish.
The articles confusing we have an inferiority complex with they have a superiority complex!
Where’s the evidence that we have an inferiority complex? Today I mean, not 20 yrs ago.
Not once did our friend mention the North, or the fact that the terrorists he referred to, were Irish men and women fighting that same oppression and rights abuses, that the author claimed we had moved on from.
The Irish in the north, did not consider the IRA as terrorists, in fact, they were considered freedom fighters by the majority of people, who considered themselves Irish.
The authors own inferiority complex is shining through as a result. Yes, we must continue to build relations with our neighbours, but not at the expense of rewriting our histories. A full National truth and reconciliation program is required, but the authors friends in the British government, refuse to support the call, even though the likes of Nelson Mandela has begged them to do it. Sad, there have been so many articles written in Irish media espousing forgetting our past and perceived wrong doings of the British, yet I have not read one article challenging the Irish and British refusal to support any firm of reconciliation program.
I have a question for you Cal. Who are the “Irish” in the “North”? For a man who constantly shouts about a “United Ireland” you are not very inclusive….
Yeah Cal, those freedom fighters you romanticize over did the world of good when they killed two young boy in an indiscriminate bomb in Warrington for example. They are murdering terrorists and criminals to boot.
Not denying the legitimate grievances/civil rights nationalists had but blowing people up. John Hume did far more for the 6 counties without ever firing a bullet.
Torkeel, the only reference the author made regarding the North, was to call the IRA campaign, a terrorist campaign. The Irish people who considered themselves oppressed there, considered the British campaign there, state sponsored terrorism, which initiated in 1925 and continued right through to the Good Friday Agreement. If you can’t accept that, then the point of the article is lost. A full truth and reconciliation program would not only help our relationship with Britain, it would also help educate the ignorant who thought the war fought from 1969 onwards, was not born out of thin air.
Poor old Cal….I thought it was a very well informed acurate article to be fair.. The IRA campaign in Northern Ireland was a terrorist campaign as was that of any other paramilitary be they so called Republicans or Loyalists. You cannot in any way shape or form that say the murdering/maiming and sustained bombing campaign was anything else but terrorism. i asked you already, who are exactly the “Irish in the North”. You failed to or wont answer the question. I would be interested in your definition of Irish. I agree there should be truth and reconciliation from both sides. Maybe if the likes of Adams and Ellisstarted telling the truth about their own past and activities it would be a start. Truth and Reconcilliation is a two way stree you knowt. There wasnt a war from 1969. The IRA werent an army and do not represent the people of Ireland, never have and never will. Their campaign was not in my name or that of my countrymen. This article is about the new found mutual respect and friendsip that exists between our two nations as a result of our close proximity and shared history. For the likes of you this may be a difficult pill to swallow. Northern Ireland is I fear and always will be a thorn in the sides of the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain. All we have to do is turn on our televisions and watch the mayhem that is flashing across our screens from Loyalist and “Republican” yobs damaging property and attacking Police on a regular basis…
Torkeel, do you recognise that I am an Irish man. I was born in Belfast and still have many many family members there. Your want and desire to exclude Irish people North of the border tells all the readers exactly who you are.
I refer to Irish people, North of the border, as people who consider themselves Irish. I also fully recognise that as of last year, approximately 48% of the people in the North consider themselves British. There is also a portion of the North’s population that consider themselves Northern Irish only (Neither British or Irish).
I fully accept those facts. Do you ?
Cal, I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone nor do I need to. I am from the Republic of Ireland and consider myself Irish. You are from Belfast and consider yourself Irish too, as is your right. My question to you is, Who are the “Irish in the North” that you constantly refer to. I was of the opinion that the population of Northern Ireland are both entitled to both British and Irish citizenship. That by my approximate estimation is 1.5m odd people that are both Irish and British. So who are the “Irish in the North”? Answer on a postcard.
Could not agree with you more well said.
Sh*t stirrer toorkeel as ever
Good afternoon Chris…you’re up early….passing commuter traffic can be so inconsiderate sometimes! What shit am I stirring Chris? I’m having an adult debate with Mr Mooney. Maybe you could answer my question Pinkie since Cal cannot?
I am calling on journalists in Irish media to answer why they are not investigating the reluctance of governments to look into the truth and reconciliation programme, Sinn Fein have been calling for it, the party that according to some of you have so much to hide, I think the media for years have only given one side of ye story , do some good journalism and find out why there is reluctance for this.
i know it is used as a tactic by Kenny and Gilmore if Sinn Fein ask them a tough question, even used this tactic in Mary Lou come on , it is used by media to keep people against a party that are talking sense!
i would love to see an article that has done research into Sinn fein fairy tale policies If there policies are all lies and fairy tale than I won’t support them but why is no one looking into it are we just taking the so trustworthy governments word for it. Or our so trustworthy media who we know one man owns majority and is bias to the troubles and Sinn Fein. A man who I have seen first hand slander this party. Independent truth and reconciliation programme is needed INDEPENDENT
I’ve lived here for 17 years having moved here from London with my Irish wife, I have a very RP BBC accent and have never attempted to hide it. I’ve never had any problems and find that most people don’t think twice in their dealings with me. In fact I’m so comfortable that I helped form a Cricket Club here which is very successful especially when you consider our location is Dundalk, we have a good cross section of ex-pat Brits, Indians and the odd Australian, but the majority of the club and controlling committee are local Irish people who happen to love the game and long ditched any associated baggage connected to the sport.
It is fantastic that you have been afforded that opportunity, it shows respect. Can I ask if there are aspects of the Irish culture that you appreciate.
There’s lots of things I appreciate Kevin Mannion not least my wife and kids who are Irish.
The vast majority of my friends are Irish, I very much enjoy the openness that has defined my experience here. There is a social inclusiveness here that I find quite enriching, in London my friends tended to be those who lived in London and usually in the same geographical part, in Ireland I find I have friends from Belfast to Cork and all points between.
I’m a bit of a music head too so I’m well served on that score.
I’ve had a look at the GAA and attended many matches at Croke Park although I have to be honest it’s not really my thing.
I very much enjoy living in Co Louth, Kerry and Galway may get all the tourists but Louth is a bit of a hidden gem I think.
I have now lived in Ireland for nearly two years and have found not one time when being English has been a problem, yes there have been jokes and banter, and that is fun and part of life. But not once have I felt uncomfortable about living in Louth or travelling to the north. I am not a quiet person and speak my mind and my accent is deffo’ English! (for which I get teased for in the UK as well).
I was quite worried about moving here to be honest but it turns out, without need. I have discovered that Irish people are very different to English, even though we speak the same language and I like that, no different to Americans or Australians.
But I have to say, the media is completely the opposite. I listen to the radio when driving in the car and frequently hear negative information about ‘The British or English’ and I have become more patriotic than ever thought possible. I have spoken to other English here and they tell me the same. Its not the people but the media taking constant jibes at the slightly larger island next door. And I agree with John, good grief, give it a rest and lets move on. We all have bigger fish to fry and need to stick together.
May you continue to be happy here Caroline. I have to say the my experience of living in the UK for 10 years ( 85-95) was the exact mirror-same as yours. I too worried about being rejected at first but needlessly. I made friends for life and love returning there.
Speaking as one of those dinosaurs who pulled up Mr. Worstall on his gratuitous, unacceptable display of racial/national/ethnic stereotyping in an article concerning a simple issue – institutional incompetence and inability to adapt to the digital age – I think the above piece displays a disturbing degree of deference and forelock tugging towards antiquated, offensive attitudes.
What made it worse, for me, is that Worstall seems to have been fully aware that his piece was objectionable. In the article, he deployed the “I’m not a racist, but …” logic: Irish stereotypes are unacceptable, but I’m going to endorse them anyway. Meanwhile, in the comments, he deployed the Jimmy Carr defence: “I know what I said was offensive, but I was being, like, all self-referential and stuff”. Sure, it was only a “joke”, right?
Would it be acceptable to write about English football hooligans: “well, we thought the stereotype of the English as bellicose, racist thugs with an unshakable sense of entitlement was a thing of the past, but here they are trying to invade and intimidate another country”? Or “typical of the British to try turning the Olympics into a horrible jingoistic throwback to empire, pretty funny that Danny Boyle spoiled the show”?
The British empire was built on a racial heirarchy, with the British near the summit, the English just above, and public school boys above them – these attitudes haven’t gone away you know. I’ve spent quite a bit of time with the descendents of colonial Britain in Africa, typical direct quote, “well, of course the blacks can’t manage their affairs, they’re happier sitting under a tree for the day”.
It speaks to a certain lack of self-confidence that the author above suggests that we should turn a blind eye to these things. These attitudes should be called out and challenged wherever they’re found, otherwise they’ll be allowed to fester and reproduce into a new generation, when they should properly be consigned to the dustbin of history.
For clarity’s sake, I’m not suggesting by any means that all or most British people think like this. I am saying that there’s nothing whatsoever wrong with challenging those who do.
As the Tim Worstall that you’re wibbling about. And as I’m not on Forbes therefore I can be somewhat more direct. Just what is it that you want to whine about?
“Would it be acceptable to write about English football hooligans: “well, we thought the stereotype of the English as bellicose, racist thugs with an unshakable sense of entitlement was a thing of the past, but here they are trying to invade and intimidate another country”? Or “typical of the British to try turning the Olympics into a horrible jingoistic throwback to empire, pretty funny that Danny Boyle spoiled the show”?”
Yes, I would indeed say both those things. The Danny Boyle one hadn’t occurred to me but the football thug one certainly has. And I’d say them in exactly the same way that I commented about the NNL.
Over the decades we’ve learned better. We don’t tell Paddy jokes in England as we used to: we’ve learned not to be quite so ignorant and hateful. Just as we’ve stopped invading countries to stick a flag over it. As football fans have stopped looking abroad for a fight instead of a game.
Or the Germans have stopped looking at the Sudetenland (where I now happen to be sitting) as theirs.
And if the football fans started a riot then my reaction would be “the facepalm”. Dang, we spent all that time cleaning up the reputation and there they go, allowing everyone to make the same old jokes. And if a German politician started talking about “lebensraum” to the east my reaction would be exactly that. As it would be if an Englishman turned up on an African beach in spats and a monocle claiming it for the Queen.
As it in fact was to the NNL. All those years the English have trained themselves not to just replace the words “Cavan” or “Kerry” with “Paddy” in a cheap joke. All those years wasted because NNL did something so amazingly stupid as to revive the possibility of the Paddy joke for another generation.
As to this: “What made it worse, for me, is that Worstall seems to have been fully aware that his piece was objectionable.”
The statement that the Sun comes up every morning is objectionable to those who believe the Earth rotates. But you’d have to really search for someone who was offended by either statement. But well done you in finding offence where not only was none meant but none was actually offered.
Tim, it’s quite simple. You gratuitously introduced a spurious ethnic/national/racial element to a story where none belonged. It’s a story about old media failing to adapt to the online era. Nothing more.
Wouldn’t your word count have been better spent getting into the meat of the issue? You know, email Simon McGarr or others who have been served with NNI’s ridiculous licensing notices for comment, a few post around here if you’re interested? Contact the grand old lady formerly of D’Olier Street or NNI for the other side? Look at the legal framework, which clearly doesn’t support the claimed right?
You know, journalism.
To be fair to you, as we backwards paddies are prone to say, it could well be a generational thing – for me and my peers, people are people first and foremost, reducing an individual, or an institution for that matter, to its national origin as primary defining characteristic is simply not acceptable. You see, even behind closed doors, “typical Irish/black/Brit/Yank (etc. ad nauseum)” simply does not wash any more, not as humour, not as anything. But I have met men of the colonial generation who are simply incapable of adapting to this reality, which is probably why they run in increasingly small and frightened numbers around the clubs outside Nairobi. Maybe you just can’t see.
In summary, either lazy journalism or an expression of more deep rooted xenophobia. In either case, unacceptable. Hopefully in future you’ll stick to reporting on the actual issues rather than touting to be picked up by the Bernard Manning school of comedy.
This site seems to have a little difficulty with my full response, so I’ve posted it here, feel free to respond:
Also, word to the wise, don’t say things like “the facepalm”, it makes you come across like David Cameron trying to hug a hoodie.
Not sure why the obsession with Britain. You can be sure they don’t think and write opinion articles about Ireland much. Get over the inferiority complex, look elsewhere. Grow up.
Ireland doesn’t occupy part of histoical Britain.
Ireland was never a unified sovereign country before the British arrived. So how can they still be occupying part if it?
Fionn who is “occupying” NI? You mean the non-Catholic Irish or whatever some wish to call themselves? Sound very united don’t we? If the majority wish to remain in the UK then that is their right. If people rejected the rights of the majority and took over then it would be “occupation”. If the people of Connacht decided to separate from the rest of Ireland. Would they be occupying the land too? NO.
Heres Kev again spouting rubbish
@Robert so if the majority of NI votes “No” to a United Ireland it doesn’t matter? If the majority wanted a UI and this was refused then yes it would be occupation. In reality all of Ireland should have been made independent originally and then the people of Ulster should have been give a referendum on whether to stay with the Republic or not if a high number demanded so. Ex: If Scotland votes “Yes” on independence the British government has no right partitioning a part of Scotland for Scottish Unionists. If a high percentage of people in a Scottish area want a separate state or be part of the UK they should be allowed to vote on it. The problem is Ireland never had such an opportunity and it was wrong. But there is no logic behind constantly attacking the NI union link in present-day; the link still exists because the majority want it to.
Well where do I start “the English” sure are very nice people, but most of them are totally uneducated about their brutal history and ignorant to the fact that they killed millions of people invading country’s all over the world for hundreds of years. Most of them have no idea why the Irish don’t like them, for that I blame their education but I guess if I was teaching English kids I would not want to tell them how we raped the country beside us. As for the 2012 Olympics I found myself in a hotel on my holidays surrounded by English
Not being a total racist I drank and had the crack with them at the bar, to my shock some of the statements and questions I was asked still anger me today, “why don’t Ireland compete under team GB” “you would win more medals if you joined our team”"how long have you been a country 5 years?”
“Is this your first Olympics”. And when Katie won her gold a women came over to me to say “thats cute” I did watch alot of team GB weather I wanted to or not home and away it was everywhere I tried turning on rte but only to find a bunch of boxing critics on 24/7 and never showed anything live I found the German Eurosport pretty good for coverage of the sports but I don’t speak German, in conclusion the English our lovely people but I will still want to see them lose and fail at sport. Oh and the first person to win a gold for gb was an Irish man. If you don’t believe me look it up!
“ignorant to the fact that they killed millions of people”
Most of them didn’t kill millions of people. In fact the vast majority of English people haven’t killed anyone at all.
Sorry Damocles not very politically correct of me, England’s army’s under the direction of the monarchy killed millions of people in many country’s. is that better?
Exactly the same as the Dutch, the French, the Germans, The Spanish and all the other colonial powers?
They have a point with the medals. Gold is a strong commodity.
Investing,
Adebayo
Alex, it’s tempting to say that your enemy ‘killed millions of people’ but it just doesn’t add up. Empire wasn’t really about conquest, it was more of a franchise. And it built the modern world. America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada. At the height of Empire India was controlled by roughly 1,000 civil servants and the defence budget wasn’t much more than it is now. There’s too much self-flagellation over colonialism. Sure its history isn’t unblemished over its 300 years. The Olympics were great though, weren’t they:)
There are over a Million Irish born working and living in the UK, Plus another five to six million 2nd and 3rd generation expats . So why the hell do we want to be anti-english. The English people are a very tolerant lot, Much more than us Irish. Anyway as for todays prioblem in Northern Ireland. Always remember that Ireland was once united and it was the South that broke that unity.
Also remind yourselves as to where the vast majority of Irish emigrants heading for during this recession,catastrophe, whatever, TO THE UK or some commonwealth country. So my countrymen WAKE UP and consider rejoining the commonwealth as a republic within this organization.
An extremely high brow description of a relatively trivial subject.
Small countries always will have an inferiority complex with their bigger cousin. And in turn express “outrage” at the bigger country’s lack of knowledge of their own.
Ireland < Britain
New Zealand < Australia
Australia < USA
Britain < USA
etc
I agree but let’s be honest the English education system when it comes to their invasion of other country’s leaves out a lot.
As does the Irish system of the wrongs committed by many Irish.
Loose the chip on the shoulder .. fact is the English never hated Ireland, they just didn’t care.
They live in too big a country to be worried about us.
check out facebook pages called “mainland loyalists standing with our brothers” “keep the union flag flying over belfast city hall” “our flag” to name a few and come to your own conclusion about LOYALISM. English, Scottish and Northern Ireland loyalists have an overwhelming hate for IRISH people and our country’s flag. Its quite upsetting to read their comments and think that people like this actually exist in today’s society. WATP NS GSOQ QS is all they seem to care about, not education, health, economy or living in peace.
It should be “Ireland’s relationship with Unionists in the North”. Why would mainland Britain care? They never have. This has nothing to do with the South either.
Did you hear about the Englishman with an inferiority complex?
He thought he was the same as every one else
As a Scouser of Irish ancestry, and living in Dublin the past 5 years almost; I’ve found English people generally very ignorant of Ireland in general. And to that end people were amazed of my knowledge of Ireland when I moved over from Liverpool. There wasn’t anywhere I wanted to move to in England when leaving Liverpool due to my roots and political persuasions. I’ve found the Irish [in comparison to the English] more knowledgeable about England/Britain than vice-versa. Perhaps things have moved on slightly but I think a lot more could be done.
“We have an inferiority complex when dealing with Britain, as if we assume they are constantly laughing at us, looking down at us. In reality we need to grow up and get on with our own lives”.
And by doing so; you ‘MUST’ begin speaking in your own native language(Irish), be cordial to immigrants, review your antediluvian education system; convert those so-called churches littering the country into proper educational institutions e.t.c – maybe then, you would’t have a reason to feel inferior.
I can’t see anything anti Irish in Forbes story and follow up is very reasonable.
the relationship between the UK and Ireland has seriously matured. Its a shame though that this flag rule was brought in. I don’t agree with the protests, but its obvious that someone is just trying to cause trouble to an already troubled area, and its ruining the progress that has been made. They should fly all the flags and keep everyone happy. If there are people who consider themselves Irish and people who consider themselves british, and they live side by side, why can’t their flags. Is there no northern Irish flag that they can fly even? or can they not create a new one based on the progress they have made instead of making petty rules to piss people off!
What inferiority complex? Its just that they simply owe us, hugely and big time, they are responsible for our history and all its terrible tragedy and misery. They owe us, they owe us still, and even when they feel they owe us no more it will still never erase what they did. So yeah laugh away, we need to constantly remind them until they cough out “sorry” imagine that is all that is ever required and unlike the Germans they are incapable of uttering those words. And the really laughable thing is how many in the media believe “we owe them” just because they once had a great time in the eighties in London!!
Words fail an adequate response to that!
Fro Robin Manson:
“There are over a Million Irish born working and living in the UK, Plus another five to six million 2nd and 3rd generation expats . So why the hell do we want to be anti-english. The English people are a very tolerant lot, Much more than us Irish. ”
I’m one of those 3G. And in 1921 g-gfather told his children that it was probably going to be better to live under the English than under Stormont. For the obvious religious reason. And who is to say that he wasn’t right?
Yeah just like the Argentinians have moved on! I really wish the brittish would give back all the land they stole!
God save the queen but disenfranchise those bigoted loyalists; ne’er mind eh! Erin’s sons will-with a bit of spunk -! Outbreed them eventually – undoubtedly!
@ Aoife – indeed we should learn to distinguish such hateful words from the one’s which prompted this thread.
Amnesty and Amnesia.
Tim Worstall. I salute you for that comment..
The element the lot of you are missing is that Irish history is more about the class system than it is about Irish / English relationships. This is the class system that has existed from when the French Normans invaded Ireland to today. The aristocrats whether, English, Irish, Scots or Welsh were all bad to their own people. The Irish war of independence was as more about obtaining social justice as it was for any sense of nationality.
The current crop of aristocrats & upper class supporters want for you to keep your eyes firmly on race or nationality rather than on them because as soon as the masses become aware of them as the Parasites they truly are – their continued existence will be threatened & as they know will be eliminated. Theirs is the tactic of divide & conquer and from reading your comments – you’re all still falling for it.
As Irish people we need to stop blaming the English ‘people’ for our miserable history as theirs was just as bad – but instead realise that the class system is an evil system (that still exists today) that pits ordinary people of the both islands against one another -we need to stop this or they will have us forever at one another’s throats forever.
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