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Dublin: 11 °C Thursday 20 June, 2013

Column: Why are loyalists so angry about a flag?

The furious protests in Belfast are born primarily of the hurt of abandonment, writes Michael Anderson.

Thousands of loyalists have marched to City Hall in Belfast to protest against the decision to restrict the number of days that the Union flag is flown on the building.
Thousands of loyalists have marched to City Hall in Belfast to protest against the decision to restrict the number of days that the Union flag is flown on the building.
Image: Photocall Ireland/Laura Hutton

Northern Ireland’s First and deputy First Minister Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness have called for people to stop protesting over the flag at City Hall, stating it is hurting the local economy. A little ingenuity is needed to stop any further escalation, writes Michael Anderson:

HERE WE GO again – but this time it is different.

Loyalists waving Union Jacks, blocking roads, burning cars and attacking the PSNI with petrol bombs, rocks and evident lethal intent. News reports tell us that the cause of the rioting is a reduction in the number of days the Union flag can be flown above Belfast City Hall. Partisan politicians allege the restriction on flying “the national flag” is evidence of nationalist triumphalism and confirmation of a darker conspiracy to suppress loyalist culture. Unionists avoid the ‘condemn’ word with deft ingenuity as they outbid one another in their denunciations of Alliance.

Business as usual then? Not when one looks more closely – the anger is not with Sinn Féin and nationalists but with the Alliance Party – the traditional voice of moderation and compromise. It is the Protestant MP for East Belfast, and her party colleagues, who are being most vehemently attacked. Unionist internecine repertoires of antagonism are revived and the familiar language of besiegement, betrayal and discrimination are re-echoed.

So who are these loyalists, why they are so angry, and what are can be done to prevent their anger really getting out of hand?

Fear

The great fear for Unionists is that the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland will come to be recognised merely as a mere political arrangement – an inconvenient and even somewhat bogus one – and therefore vulnerable to manipulation, diminishment and in the end extinction. External threats tend to unify Unionism, but a special vehemence is reserved for ‘enemies within’ who betray their heritage – similar to the reviled position of the informer in nationalist tradition.

Loyalists suspect the unionist middle classes of putting their interests before that of the union. The loyalist working class however will remain ‘staunch’ and will fight hardest to preserve the Union. Loyalists are deeply suspicious of a deal being done that will “sell them out”. In this they do need to go further back to the truly seismic shock to Unionism of the Anglo Irish Agreement (1985) and the enormous sense of betrayal they felt at Prime Minister Thatcher making an agreement with the Dublin government without the knowledge or consent of the Unionist parties.

Belfast City Hall became the focal point of that dissent – the iconic ‘Ulster says No’ banner that draped the cupola and the mass meeting of 200,000 at which Dr Paisley repeatedly said No, No, No! The presence of the union flag on Belfast City Hall is therefore hugely symbolic – probably more so for loyalists than the tricolour above the GPO is to the people of Dublin.

The late UVF and PUP leader David Ervine put it succinctly when he said that loyalists were “those who were prepared to fight for the Union rather than just talk about it”. Ulster Loyalists see themselves as being a distinct cultural community forged out of a prolonged close quarter conflict with hostile Irish nationalist secessionists. This identity is essentially local but is nested within a wider British culture. The symbols of that link are British institutions, the Crown and (most immediately) the Union flag. In many ways they bypass politicians – both Stormont and Westminster – and owe allegiance directly to the Queen.

Restrictions on culture celebration

Loyalists who feel besieged by nationalist encroachment are vigilant in the extreme about the incremental erosion of their cultural autonomy. Loyalist working class have seen the loss of their shipbuilding and engineering industrial power base and the concrete way in which it was integrated into the Union. They have seen a systematic removal of the Crown symbol – starkly in the case of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The celebration of their culture is increasingly being restricted. The Orange parade at Drumcree was a watershed but it continues with limits on numbers, routes and even the playing of traditional tunes. Each reduction seems irreversible and the momentum unstoppable.

The anger is more that of the hurt of abandonment. The flag is prominent in the community narratives of hard work and sacrifice for the union. Belfast believes that its industrial contribution to WWII was decisive and well recognised by a royal visit by George VI and Princess Elizabeth. It was for this flag that so many Ulstermen and Shankill Road men in particular died on the Somme. The vehemence of the protest and the ferocity of its focus on the Alliance Party for its apparent “collusion” is revealing. Alliance MP Naomi Long (Peter Robinson’s constituency rival) among others is demonised as a “Lundy” (the governor whose intentions to surrender were frustrated by the Apprentice Boys in the siege of Londonderry 1691).  She is the proxy for all the anger, resentment and hurt.

What can be done? Alliance has a good record on this issue. When former Alliance Chairman Tom Ekin was elected Lord Mayor of Belfast 2004 he filled the mayor’s office with the flags of the entire EU states – thus obviating the need to remove the Irish tricolour of his SDLP predecessor. Surely a little ingenuity and degree of magnanimity by Sinn Féin would check the sepsis threatened by gestural politics.

Dr Michael J. Anderson is a Political Science lecturer and Fellow at the Institute for British Irish Studies in UCD. His PhD thesis was entitled Identity Change and Power Shift: the Case of Loyalism in Northern Ireland. He has also conducted extensive interviews with the major political and administrative figures in UK and Ireland for the Irish Research Council Humanities and Social Sciences funded Breaking Patterns of Conflict Archive Project for UCD. You can contact Michael at michael.anderson@ucd.ie.

Read: Loyalists plan protests across North over new policy on Union flag>

Read: More than 1,200 attend Belfast peace rally>

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Comments (144 Comments)

  • Loyalists who are loyal to the crown? Then why do they celebrate the 12th each year. William of orange was a foreign prince and had nothing to do with the British royal family. Choosy loyalists they should move to holland

    Reply
    • “…had nothing to do with the British royal family.” Not true, his grandfather was Charles I, and his uncles were Charles II and Jame II, all kings! Infact he was ridiculously close as he married Mary II who was the daughter of James II i.e. his first cousin! As usual in royalty it was very much kept in the family! But yeah, he couldn’t speak English well (again not the first or last British King who couldn’t!) and really couldn’t give a toss about the North, he just wanted James II out of the way so he could establish himself as King!

      Reply
    • They also forget (or choose not to accept the reality) how many of Queen Elizabeth’s cousins are Roman Catholics (ex: the Queen of Spain whose great-grandmother is Queen Victoria AKA the Famine Queen) and also the fact that Princess Diana’s mother was a convert to Catholicism and that her great-grandfather was an Irish-Nationalist. They really live on some other planet; they are totally disconnected from the way mainland Britain is. More British than the actual British themselves.

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    • Loyalism and Protestantism have been bulked together through years of sectarianism. Similarly with nationalism and Catholicism.
      Are there Catholics who want Northern Ireland as part of the UK or protestants who wish to have a united Ireland?

      Strangely King James II was still in power in December 1688 (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/299989/James-II) so really Lundy was loyal to the king (loyalist). But by that logic all members of NI parliament are loyalist

      Who knows maybe some day there’ll be a Muslim female as ruler of England ahead of her Christian brother??
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Crown_Bill_2012

      In Ireland the EU flag is flown year-round below the tricolor at many government buildings maybe they should only be put up on important days; anniversaries of each of the bailouts maybe?

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    • I hope not on the Muslim ruler part.

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    • @DaVe O’m Just wondering where in the link to the Succession Bill does it mention Muslims? Since the British monarch is also head of the Protestant church I’d say you might be waiting a long time for a Muslim queen!

      Maybe we should elect her holiness Frau Merkel as the head of a new Irish church…all schools and offices will close on the bailout days where we worship the EU flag.

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    • Which queen Elizabeth? Cause if its the first one her bloody parents at one stage were Catholics. As was her sister and grandparents. Not just her cousin.

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    • DaVe O'm 18/12/12 #

      @cboregan true it doesn’t mention Muslims but I’m not sure if they were ever precluded from ruling??

      The broader point I guess is; does it really matter much in an increasingly secular society and will the difference between religious and political beliefs begin to emerge?

      Reply
    • I’m referring to the current one, not the 400 year old one.

      Reply
    • I had reason to ring the HER MAJESTYS REVEUNE AND CUSTOMS last week and after answering umpteen questons the individual in question went to ask her supervisor about my query. The answer basically was “Fermanagh is not part of the UK therefore my query could not be dealt with by HMRC” Seems that while the six counties recognise the UK, the UK convienentally do not recognise the six counties. I asked to speak to the supervisor and gave her a geography lesson she will not forget in a hurry.

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    • Dont understand the red thumb if you work in any of the 6 counties you pay your tax to the UK, HMRC dont care what colour your flag is you still have to pay. But when you look for tax back they, as i have stated, convienently dont understand the geographical connection.

      Reply
    • LOL They also don’t accept Northern Ireland banknotes “over there”.

      Reply
  • Because they are unemployed nutcases suffering from an identity crisis? It’s also said that many think Northern Ireland is part of Britain (an island which comprises England, Wales, and Scotland) and don’t even understand their own country’s name, basic geography, or can even spell it properly at times. Ulster “Loyal”ism is really based off of ethnic/religious supremacy and the denial of an equal society. They perceive anything about equality/shared society as them being “oppressed” or stripped of their so-called “human rights” unfortunately.

    Reply
    • Or maybe they think its a part of Britain because it is a part of the British isles. It’s good to know a bit of basic geography.

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    • @James – If they don’t even understand what Britain actually is, I highly doubt they will understand the geographical name of these isles; which comprises the islands of Britain and Ireland.

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    • Well what does Britain mean to you?

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    • *Facepalm*, James.

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    • Britian/british= Imperialist invaders not welcome in many lands

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    • Scotland, England & Wales.

      Ireland is not nor ever been a part of Britain. It has always been a separate geographical, political, economic and cultural country. It has been part of the UK, under the Act of Union that created the United Kingdom of Britain & Ireland. The north remains part of the UK, the UK now being the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

      The clue is in the title.

      Reply
    • @James- What on earth are you talking about? What do you mean what does Britain mean to me? Who cares what it means to me. I clearly stated that Britain is an island comprised of the following three states England, Wales, and Scotland. Then you made some snarky reply inferring I was unaware of the fact that the area that is comprised of two islands named Britain and Ireland are also called the “British Isles”. Yes I know that, I’m not retarded.

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    • I never said it was, I was just pointing out that it is part of the British Isles.

      Great input there DublinLad. Are you actually from the city or just its armpit?

      Reply
    • Well if they knew Geographic locations then why are they marching with a banner that says “Ulster was,is and always will be British”. What about Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan since when are these counties which are part of Ulster classed as British? I don’t think our Loyalist brethren attended school for that Geography class.

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    • It is a country that traditionally looked after tens of thousands of Irish men and women when there was no work available in this country. Also the money that was sent home fed many a family that otherwise would have gone hungry. It is also our biggest customer of exports. It is home to the ordinary decent working man and woman who thinks that family and country are important to them. You also have the bad stuff as we do.

      Reply
    • JustMe 18/12/12 #

      But they were invited into Ireland.

      Reply
    • What are u talkin bout james . U cant even spend nothern irish notes in england. that shows how much part they are

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    • @justme.. Who was invited?

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    • As I always say, ‘A rolling stone, wasn’t built in a day’

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    • The British Isles is taxonomical term employed by the residents of the UK to describe the islands of Britain, Ireland and Isle of Man. We are only in ‘The British Isles’ if you are comfortable describing Ireland in the terms employed by the British…if not, this f**ked up archipelago is more accurately (if less succinctly) referred to as ‘the British Isles and Ireland’.
      On the subject of Loyalists, they are the unwanted and neglected ginger step-children of the disunited kingdom and have shown, time and again since the foundation of the UVF in 1912, that they have no respect for democracy or the rule of law. Their ‘traditions’ and ‘culture’ comprise of pre-Enlightenment anti-catholic bigotry and a profoundly misplaced sense of loyalty and superiority.
      They have been used by the British establishment as a flag of convenience to shoot defence lawyers like Patrick Finucane in 1989 and to bomb Dublin and Monaghan back in 1974 and this will continue as long as the British indulge them.

      Reply
    • JustMe 18/12/12 #

      The Brits. Henry II and Strongbow.

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    • Henry II and Strongbow were Anglo-Normans. Dermot McMurrough wated their help to dispose of other Irish wannabe Kings and the Ostmen. They set up camp in Dublin, Limerick, Waterford and Cork. It took another 250 yrs for Ireland to be taken over by ‘Britain’- and they were not invited.

      Reply
    • The Normans ruled Britain when they took over Ireland, Strongbow was named Diarmuids successor when he married his daughter Aoife. So he eventually became the ruler of Leinster. Considering Britain was then ruled by the Normans I think it is far to say they were invited, with the Norman king being the King of England and what not.

      Reply
    • JustMe 18/12/12 #

      And the Pope of the time encouraged them for his own ends—to gain control of the Irish church. So that brings us full circle back to today’s problem—religious intolerance.

      Reply
    • @JustMe: and of course the pope who gave Henry the green light for the Irish invasion was Nicholas Breakspear — Pope Adrian IV — England’s only pope…in ecclesiastical terms, it was a Roman/Celtic power struggle — the Celtic church was seen as too influential and a threat to Rome’s centralised power.

      Reply
    • JustMe 18/12/12 #

      No, it was Pope Alexander.

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    • So the banner should say “united kingdomish” rather than British? I’m pretty sure British is used to describe people from the UKs nationality, even though they don’t live on the island of Britain. Are you going to write a letter to the governor of the British Virgin Islands letting him know he’s in the Caribbean?

      Reply
    • Surely all the Irish “kings” with the exceptional of o Connor accepted Henry as their overlord by way of the treaty of Windsor in 1171ish? So what was your invasion 250 yrs later?

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    • I just went looking for info on my lunch and I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong. I have always thought that NI was part of Brittain. Eating humble pie.

      Reply
    • I think there was a horse named after him . Just saying

      Reply
    • Hey attley
      What’s the difference between an elrphant and a cockfur

      Reply
  • While it is certainly true that both the DUP and the UUP have suffered at the hands of Alliance it should also be noted that these protests are also being used as a means to blackmail funds from Stormont and Westminister ie You give grants and we will stop rioting. When Naomi Long ousted Peter Robinson from his seat it sent shock waves throughout the ranks of the 2 main Unionist parties where voters are deserting the worn out rhetoric for a more progressive chance of improving things. This lead to the DUP and UUP distributing leaflets throughout Loyalist?Unionist areas attacking the Alliance party and their “treachery” to the flag”. As a result Alliance party members have come under threat and not a peep from the DUP/UUP on the matter.

    The other thing to note is that this is as much about money as it is about political gains. As I pointed out yesterday on another article http://tinyurl.com/cxypa7c the violent sides of these protests are run by the UDA/UVF. The senior commander in E Belfast who I can’t name, met with Peter Robinson in Stormont after last years riots. Over tea they discussed the building of a community center in E Belfast costing £21 million and figured that would keep the protesters occupied, for now. What probably wasn’t discussed was the fact that the UVF Brigadier nicknamed “The Beast fronm the East” or “Ugly Doris” (take your pick), saw this as a payday considering that he runs all the drugs and protection rackets in the area. So how much of that £21 million will be used to build the community center and how much will line the pockets of the UDA/UVF? To be fair to the UVF it’s a great gig and something that the drug gangs down here could latch on to.

    Think about it. Start a riot in your area over some minor grievance. Your local drug lord will finance it and direct operations. Then either Eamon Gilmore or Enda Kenny will invite your local drug lord up to Leinster House for tea and sandwiches. This despite the fact that the Garda Commissioner has a file on the drug lord a mile long including racketeering, sale and distribution of drugs, intimidation, suspicion of involvement in serious crimes (which again I can’t print), and so on. The drug lord says that as a “community leader” he will use his “influence” to stop the riots. Riots stop, a couple of months later money rolls into the new community project and the drug lords coffers. Everybody’s happy, drug lord gets his money, the politicians get political kudos, until the bank balance runs down and the drug lord and his cronies realize that they are either losing out financially or politically and the whole process has to start all over again.

    Reply
  • Amazing. They are neither British nor Irish and neither country wants them. They should feel northern Irish.

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  • Leave them fly their flag as long as they fly the Irish Tri colour next to it ! Not everyone in Northern Ireland is a loyalist !

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    • That would make it worse. They want no compromise. They want complete dominance and to have everything their way. They already have their way on the all important constitutional position of the six counties.

      Reply
    • @Pharmyco. Agreed, they should accept change, it is happening whether they like it or not and to oppose it is just to hurt the future of the north of Ireland. If you don’t like your garden lads, move.

      Reply
    • JustMe 18/12/12 #

      Mary, you are missing the point. Northern Ireland is an independent country from Ireland. Suggesting they fly the Irish tricolour is like suggesting USA fly the French or Spanish flags because those two nations used to own what is now USA’s territory.

      Reply
    • @just me ……… It’s your opinion it’s an independent country ! It’s part of the island of Ireland and half the citizens consider themselves Irish !

      Reply
    • JustMe 18/12/12 #

      Mary, geographically it is part of the island. Politically it is separate. Has been since 1923. Suggest you update your knowledge.

      Reply
  • Excellent article. It certainly helped me understand where the loyalist protesters are coming from. I can’t help feeling investment in education and jobs is crucial for the North to climb out of narrow tribal concerns. We live in a global world and thanks to technology there is no going back. Allegiance to country and its emblems are increasingly irrelevant

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    • Education takes decades to rehabilitate mindsets. And central to the problem here is that they feel a divine right to ‘top dog’ position. It is a tragic consequence of the lack of leadership over the years. The late David Irvine understood this and at least tried. We should also mention playgrounds in Newry being named after terrorists on the other side. There is a lot of deliberate antagonism from the other side too.

      Reply
    • censored 19/12/12 #

      We should put an end to segregated education. Problem solved in one or two generations.

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  • Loyalists are mostly uneducated unemployed bigots who do not even fully comprehend the reason they riot half the time example being an 11 year old arrested last night for rioting! What does an 11 year old know? They will never get the chance to learn either as they are brought up with a 1 dimensional view of what is right and wrong! As for the symbolism of the uj flying above city hall more relevant to loyalists than the tricolour is to republicans above the gpo, i do not agree at all with that statement.

    Reply
    • Nice big brush you have there for tarring them all. Education and employment is often a general issue when it comes to social unrest. Just how active would the nationalists have been if there was equal employment and social standing for them in the 60s and 70s? The peacocks up there are the leaders on both sides, not the guys who are worried and confused about their place in their homeland. The article does a good job trying to explain their motivation, not apologise for the stupidity of their actions. Unless we can move past a them and us view of things all the progress made will halt and maybe reverse.

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    • I said “mostly”

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    • No different from the uneducated moronic nationalists who regularly take to the streets and petrol bomb the PSNI and riot. They have also taken to murdering police and prison officers. Lack of work, education and manipulation by others on both sides of the divide at work here.

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    • What evidence is there that these particular bigots are overwhelmingly unemployed?

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    • Actually do you have to be uneducated to be unemployed these days? Lot’s of people are unemployed in our own country for example with third and fourth level educations.

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    • Chris K 18/12/12 #

      In respect of the thugs on the street the fact the majority protest during the week throughout the day would suggest they are aswell as the fact they spelt flag as fleg !

      Reply
    • Pharmyco 18/12/12 #

      Fleg is Ulster Scots for flag. A bit of respect for cultural diversity please.

      Reply
    • censored 19/12/12 #

      Thought they wanted to be British and are loyal to the Queen .. though apparently not to her English. A conflicted people indeed!

      Reply
  • Why are Loyalists so angry about anything?

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  • “The great fear for Unionists is that the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland will come to be recognised merely as a mere political arrangement – an inconvenient and even somewhat bogus one…” – He’s not wrong folks!

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  • People generally use flags for to display their nationalism , and the north ,which is still part of the United Kingdom was put through a ‘compromise’ for a peace process to ,amongst other things accommodate shared government of nationalists and loyalists. Both share power , both signed up to the agreement on how to govern in the new era of peace , it seems not beyond reason that both flags should be put up on all govt buildings to display that both communities live and are represented . There are two tribes and we know they are capable of going to war , just put both flags up and move on.

    Reply
  • I’m not a huge fan of the ‘union jack’ flying on Irish soil … Just do it for a half hour of a Tuesday morning lads and calm yer jets

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    • It’s still flown, now just not all the time.

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    • It’s not the union jack, it’s the union flag, it’s only called the union jack when flown form a vessel at sea. It is also flown upside down as many loyalists arnt aware of that there a correct way to fly it nor do many know the history or origin of the flag. Important to know I would have thought, if you are going to protest about when it is flown etc but then again how often do we see the Irish flag flown, dirty, tatty and torn, which is disgraceful.

      Reply
    • damian 18/12/12 #

      Not entirely true chair man: http://old.qi.com/qi_quibble_blog/2009/01/flagging-up-a-mistake.html

      “While some pedants might say that traditionally the flag should only be flown at sea – that is certainly what was originally intended – you are right to say that a parliamentary statement confirmed that the common usage is also correct.”

      “The Union flag is indeed only referred to as a Union jack when flying from the jack staff of a Royal Navy warship, but not at sea! Only when the first rope hits the jetty or when at anchor can the flag be hoisted. The flag flown from the yard arm when at sea is the white Ensign.”

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    • That flag management pedantry is hilarious. I had a staunch nationalist one year as a primary teacher and he made us learn how to handle the flag respectfully. Loads of nonsense like raised at sundown and lowered at sunset, never to touch the ground etc. Talk about making up problems! Find a real one.

      Reply
    • Well known as the butcher’s apron, and with reason.

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  • I just don’t get some of these countries, Scotland,Australia, NZ,NI etc

    Cut the apron strings and remove the union flag from your culture and get your own national identity.

    Reply
  • This is fairly poorly edited. The point is basically correct but I’d hesitate saying loyalist cultural celebration has been repressed, its simply cultural domination has been curtailed. The 12th is public holiday ffs. Also the conclusion is wrong, this is not on SF, this is a mark of the need for unionist leaders to stop playing to the lowest common denominator and taking no responsibility.

    Reply
  • Flags are representations of nations that took pride in their cultures and status. We are part of the European union that both countries voted on by its people. Past is gone and anger can destroy reason . Move on people, theses flags are intimidation to the opposition and there is opposition in Northern Ireland. Flags are symbolic symbols have a total different meaning in NI than the rest of Europe. They need to be removed for all to move forward for a peaceful place to live.

    Reply
  • If these thugs didn’t have the Red Hand flag to flock to they’d support Rangers or the National Front or some other gang of violent misanthropes.

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  • Like any woolly liberal, flag waving makes me a little sick and and a little angry at the same time. I am reminded of the streams of nationalist and fascist jingoism that populated Europe in the first half of the 20th century. Yet at the same time, flags and national symbols do have meanings for communities, which, if not respected must at least be understood. Taking Northern Ireland as an example, though institutional sectarianism dominated culture life for many Catholics in Northern Ireland developments since 1995 indicate that life is changing for the better. Even if you hate the rhetoric, Unionists believe they are British, and it is not for anybody else on the island to identify them as anything else. In the republic it must also be acknowledged that a re-unification of Ireland is seen a given, only a matter of time, and it is because of this that ‘we’(southerners) make no effort to change the unionists (majority of which are protestant) perception, and make them understand that they are entitled to an ‘irish’ heritage too. No progress will be made if people accuse unions of having an ‘identity crisis’, or by dismissing them as stupid. It is perhaps one of the most acts lazy though processes out there. After all the Irish flag is Green, White, and Orange ( not gold as so many would have it.) I hate the violence and I believe that you can bitch and moan about that till your eyes bleed, but being lazy and dismissive about anyone sense of culture heritage is not cool.

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    • Glen 19/12/12 #

      beninchaos your comments are reasonable, but unfortunately there is a large proportion of readers here who would disagree with that point of view. Irish means (white) Catholic and Republican and anything outside this criteria is perceived as anti-Irish. There is a lot of talk about 26+6=1 and its good news that Unionists demographic is allegedly on the wane. The irony is that those who constantly criticise the civil rights abuses and persecution of the ‘Nationalist’ community see no harm (and actually take delight) if the roles are reversed.

      Reply
  • In Northern Ireland today and in many other areas of discord, some self-righteous, benevolent-looking grandparent is bouncing a child on his or her knee and teaching it to hate the family next door because they say different prayers to the same God.

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  • These lads should be aware that we’re it not for the alliance party, the flag would still be coming down, The difference is it would stay down all year.

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  • If their that found of the UK let them move over there, this is Ireland.

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  • Getting closer to a united ireland :)

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  • Gerard 18/12/12 #

    Take a tip boat every few hrs Belfast to Scotland and don’t forget to pack your union rags

    Reply
  • Some of the comments on here hold just as much bigotry and ignorance about loyalist/unionist/NI protestants that you are accusing them of. How can this island move on unless we learn to accept all of those who reside here?

    Also, for those who want a united Ireland, how would you go about appeasing and integrating all of those loyal to the Union Flag?

    Would also be interested to hear how Ireland could absorb the financial impact of another 1.7m people, and where the police/military capability would come from to subdue and contain the inevitable bombings, shootings, murders, riots etc. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings still cast a cloud over the South; how could we deal with daily/weekly/monthly occurrences of such acts?

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    • Firstly I’m sure republicans would have no problem with accepting people of Unionist persuasion marching around and banging their drums to their hearts content. After all in a 32 County Republic there is a right to freedom of expression and religion. Might take a while but I’m sure that even the most hard line of Loyalists will get used to it.

      ” the financial impact of another 1.7m people” Well for starters if money is more important to someone than their country then I would respectfully suggest that they surrender their passport at Departures as they emigrate to some foreign tax haven. Surprisingly enough those people actually work and pay tax’s. I’m pretty sure that we could write off a bucket load of our debts and even get more money from the EU as a peace initiative to help the whole thing along. the Germans can’t say shag all seeing as how they reintegrated East and West Germany. We also get to cut out cross boarder smuggling and gain territorial waters as well so that should be worth a few bob.

      We integrate the PSNI in to Gardai ( they already work fairly well together) and gain in economies of scale. As for any need for peace keeping, we just call up the UN, they owe us a few favors at this stage. Besides what would Loyalist terrorists be doing any way? Bombing us to get Britain to take them back? What are the chances of that. Rioting to get their own statelet. What are they going to do, set up a Loyalist Monaco around Belfast?

      With Britain gone it’s endgame for Loyalism, it would be like weaning a baby off it’s bottle. They would have to get used to that fact that Britain is gone for good and isn’t coming back. By making sure and enforcing vigorously a policy of non-discrimination and equality toward people of all traditions the new State would proactively stamp out any triumphalism from Nationalists.

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    • Brian – last time I looked, you can’t pay for your utility bills or your grocery shopping with your passport. Millions of Irish have left this country in order to work abroad; does that make them any less Irish because earning a living and feeding their family was more important than their country?

      Personally, I also think it’s very naive to believe that there would be no repercussions from loyalists.

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    • Keith I never made any reference to anybody emigrating from Ireland because of the economic downturn. You asked the question as to ” hear how Ireland could absorb the financial impact of another 1.7m people” . I don’t know your views on this but my response was in reference to people who say that we can’t afford reintegration. These are people who put themselves and their own interests before the interests of their country, its got nothing to do with general emigration.

      As for being naive about Loyalist repercussions, I believe that I addressed that being asking for a UN peacekeeping force to monitor things. As for Loyalist violence I would have thought that by stating the futility of Loyalist violence in trying to get Britain to take them back (fat chance) or the setting up of their own State would have highlighted the absurdity of the use of violence. The only reason there would be violence would be because the Brigadiers in the UDA/UVF would be trying to consolidate their territories in the new 32 county Republic.

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    • Brian – have you ever lived in the north? Do you personally know anyone who would describe themselves as a Unionist or Loyalist? Honestly, your perception is way off the mark. They are as British as a any English, Welsh or Scotsman and don’t want to relinquish that identity. Their families have been in Ireland as long as the settlers have been in America. That doesn’t dilute their Britishness.

      As for the UN peacekeeping idea, you are proposing the use another foreign military force? That would go down well. Singling out a community from the off in case they cause trouble – a) that’s not why they mobilise and b) as someone who has served on UN peacekeeping missions, the rules of engagement and powers granted would not allow any force to be effective in a situation such as was seen during the Troubles.

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    • I;m caught for time so…

      Yes I have,
      Yes I do,
      My perceptions aren’t clouded in any way by the fact that I live in the Republic. Fair enough you probably lived in NI for the 7 years that you served with the RIR but considering the the large amount of ex UDR men in the Regiment maybe it’s your perceptions that are way off.
      The UN idea was floated as far back as 1969 and was brought to the UN but never took off at the time. I also didn’t single out either side for special consideration by the UN (unlike the British Army did in ’69). I proposed a peacekeeping force and to qualify it , only brought in as a method of last resort.

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    • censored 19/12/12 #

      The idea that Ireland can’t “absorb the financial impact of another 1.7m people” is a fallacy that is often repeated by small minded people. Reminds me of Lenihan the elder and his famous speech about this island being “too small” for its population.

      This island is plenty big enough, and many of our repeated economic woes are caused by our small, widely dispersed population – too small to sustain a real competitive economy.

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  • They are angry because Linfield are in 5th!

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  • The union is safe, but the north isn’t and won’t ever be as British as Finchley and that is the vulnerability of Loyalism, it needs majoritarianism, dominance, and a labour aristocracy to ensure the cross class unity of Unionism…all of which are gone or going…however what it does have is a state that keeps engaging in imperialist adventures which re- energise the worst of militaristic and jingoistic identities in the north from where they enthusiastically recruit their working class army… If Loyalists really wanted to defend the state they would defend the greatest war memorial to those that defeated fascism, the NHS, which is being sold from under them with the assistance of SF and the DUP…that’s the real tragedy here

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  • It’s got F all to do with Flegs – good old rabble rousing by the middle-class UUP to get rid of the Alliance Party, no mention of the inflammatory leaflets distributed by the UUP amongst the working-class ‘loyalist’ estates proclaiming all sorts of nationalist doom – it was a calculating, contrived and well organised visiousness by those wanting to grasp power back, nothing more, why wasn’t it mentioned that the flag arrangement has been in place over Stormont for years with no ‘loyalist reaction’? I really don’t know what so-called loyalist have to fear from their neighbours, as there are so many apologists justifying their baying mob like actions in the southern media…hopefully due to ignorance of the full facts. The media send out a very simplified version of facts in the south, it is unsurprising that people are so back-ass ignorant of what actually goes on.

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  • Quite simply there just stupid

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  • No Union Jack should be flown in Ireland full stop !

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  • And the last line ends with basically its Sinn Feins fault.The SDLP man took down the flag of his country and put up EU flags to make certain factions happy but probably not himself.The constant pandering to the sensitivities of the Loyalist/Unionts is getting beyond the joke.It seems to me they can do what they like and if a Nationalist offends them in the slightest then its them who is the shitstirrers.In modern times with recent history in mind i think flying a former militarys flag in a country they have left would not be tolerated it just would’nt its colonial and a mindset from the past .Put up their Northern Irish flag what’s wrong with that.Skewing it into its a nationalist Sinn Fein Irish problem is ridiculous for once people its the Loyalists who are hanging on to a idea that there is no room for anymore as people try and move into the 21st century.The British flag goes up certain times of the year and for the rest its neutral …what’s the problem..

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  • out of our Tax payers money” all the jobs Richard Burton got well most of them were for northern Ireland” Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore should have left well enough alone as they have already broken the Good Friday Agreement without our Vote” Kenny and Cameroon signed a pack Deal since March of uniting British Ireland” we had peace till this Government stuck the busy Body Oars where it’s not Belong, Notice more bombs around Dublin since the agreement was Signed tacked and Delivered last November 2011, also St Andrews Agreement and the government have signed the Anglo Irish Treaty off the Constitution to allow British to work in the Oireachtas with Sean Barrett another Traitor who is UK , there will never be Peace in northern Ireland as long as British Settlers are living there” it reminds you of Israel invading into Palestine” same Story here” Brita invading to Ireland” stealing Our Oil gas” monarchy Relative Beatrice the ledges” of the Royal Family are at the same thing again” and Cameroon is a distant Cousin of The Queen” what A Joke FG and lb are allowing Loyalist who caused more trouble and IRA too” I despise murders, and this government allows them to Enter into The Dial in Dublin, Keep British out of Dublin, not welcome”

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  • Great article. It’s always worthwhile hearing from somebody who has insight on topics like this. The average person is content with repeating stereotypical insults and half truths about such emotive subjects. I didn’t understand the flag thing before, now I do.

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  • Gerard 18/12/12 #

    26+6=1 island of Ireland should be as one only our rivers run free

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  • “Alliance Party – the traditional voice of moderation and compromise.”

    But didn’t they propose their compromise because the Shinners were pushing for total removal? Have the Shinners forced this situation and managed to come out of it relatively unscathed?

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    • You’re right Damocles. This was purely a political move on the part of Sinn Fein as they knew exactly what the reaction would be. Maybe if McGuinness had said now wasn’t the time to remove the “Union” flag it would have been a much bigger move on Sinn Feins part, an act of reconciliation and understanding towards the Loyalist community and we wouldn’t be looming at the scenes we are seeing in Northern Ireland on our TV screens….

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    • stick to the facts an alliance party move the shinners blah blah blah it was the alliance party

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    • @ toorkeel this was a move by sinn fein and the sdlp to make the city hall represent all of the cities inhabitants. the majority now vote for nationalist parties and the city hall needed to reflect this. sf and sdlp are acting to rid the council chamber of partisan political symbols that are only there to taunt their constituents. this was their duty and alliance supported the principle. the small number of loyalist bigots will always object to progress. we would have had no progress if we reacted every time the soother fell out of their pram.

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    • @Richard….I think you need to stick to the facts. The Alliance Party tried to mediate and offered a compromise on the motion.
      @Cold War Kid…I’m just saying SF knew exactly what the reaction was going to be. They could have played it completely differently and both sides would have benefited….This was a calculated move.

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    • This sort of politics isn’t about what is good for the community, it’s about what policy will most annoy my opponents.

      It’s political trolling.

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    • @toorkeel a political party should not stand back from representing its constituents and making its society fairer because it fears protests by bigotted extremists. even if they ‘know’ what the reaction will be.

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    • Damocles and Torkeel … my dear friends and countrymen. Please desist with your ever more annoying attempts to deflect blame from where it lies.
      For year, Belfast was gerrymandered, as well as Derry to give the Unionists a disproportionate number of council seats. For years the Unionists ignored their Irish Brethren, or even worse, supoprted the murders of Irish civilians, or bombing Irish families out of their homes (and all this before the IRA even started in 1969).
      It is a bit rich of you guys to be on this site talking about appeasing the Unionists, and letting bygones be bygones.
      It is a simple fact that the Irish are now the majority population in both Belfast and Derry. Otherwise, how would you explain that in both Belfast and Derry, the populations there, vote in Irish/Nationalist elected representatives.
      Either you support Democracy, or you don’t. You want Belfast city council to put the flags of Britain back up…. please tell us why? this flag is not the Northern Irish Flag, it is not the Irish Flag, ir is not the Ulster flag … so why do you want the British flag up, outside the building where the majority of its elected representatives working in the building, do not see that flag being Representative of their views, or that of their electorate.
      A compromise was reached, and was supported by SF, and the SDLP to pay respect to their Unionist representatives. The British Flag will fly on 17 days per year. This is a good compromise, take it and accept what is being offered, otherwise, the agreement should be that the flag does not fly on ANY day of the year.

      It is vitriolic and backward thinking people that encourage the thugs and criminals to go out and riot ‘peacefully’,
      It is farcical that both of you go on about the IRA and SF etc, and yet its the two of you who do not accept the democratic will of Belfast City council. Do you guys do hypocrisy much?

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    • Apparently Sinn Féin proposed: both tricolour/BA all the time or no flags. The Alliance, put forward the compromise, having no reason to think that the same arrangement that’s acceptable at Stormont, Lisburn, etc. would be a huge problem for the DUP. How wrong they were.

      It’s telling that Naomi Long has been targeted in particular, which of course has nothing to do with the fact that she took Peter Robinson’s seat. Deeply cynical – not often I agree with David Trimble, but:

      http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/trimble-slams-dup-over-flag-row-1-4591473

      For sure, it’s an assertive move by Sinn Féin, making it clear in no uncertain terms that unionist domination of of Belfast City Council is a thing of the past … and I think the latter is the biggest problem for many loyalist.

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    • “my dear friends and countrymen”

      Nope.

      “You want Belfast city council to put the flags of Britain back up”

      UK flag, not British.

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    • I’m not all that fussed about who puts what up where, I do question the motivations of politicians who seem to be choosing policy as a means of trolling their political opponents (which seems to be going on all over the world) it’s childish and non-constructive.

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    • Don’t know about the “trolling” point at all – lest we forget “the celebration of [loyalist] culture” generally involves letting the “Taigs” know who’s boss, marching in front of their houses banging drums and such, so it’s only fair that this “is increasingly being restricted.”

      Civic buildings in Northern Ireland generally don’t fly the Union Jack all year round, Belfast was the exception, it’s only being made to conform with the Stormont and the rest.

      The biggest problem I see is that the DUP, in letting loose both loyalist paramilitaries and potent cultural forces of “loyalist tradition” on this, for their own cynical electoral purposes, have lost control of the protests, and who knows where it’s going to end up.

      Really, although I am admittedly somewhat biased on this, I think there’s a certain redundancy to much “loyalist culture” these days – much of their ritual and belief system was based on a right to rule and keeping the other side down, which is simply unacceptable.

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    • @Cal. “The Irish” are now in the majority in Belfast and Derry. Who exactly are “The Irish”. I was under the impression that the citizens of Northern Ireland are entitled to dual citizenship? As in they are both British and Irish Citizens in equal measure. Also, there is no official flag for Northern Ireland. I fail to see why the tricolour would fly over City Hall in Belfast considering its not in the Republic of Ireland. Might as well stick up the Scottish flag in that case while you’re at it…

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    • You should probably have a read of the Good Friday Agreement, Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution, etc.

      While the explicit territorial claim was watered down, NI can still vote on “territorial reintegration” at any point and anyone born in NI can claim Irish citizenship as a birthright, among other things.

      Reality is that there’s nothing outlandish about wanting the Tricolour flown in NI, given its disputed status – no offence, but I think you should probably brush up on your history.

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    • How are the majority of Belfast and Derry Irish, when the census only has 25% of respondents claiming, only Irish as their nationality? Do you mean RC?

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    • Brian, the same report you quote, says less than 50% of the North, consider themselves British … what is your point?
      There are RC who consider themselves British, as there are Protestants who consider themselves Irish.
      I really don’t get your point :(

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    • My mistake, that reply was meant for Dearbhla, below.

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  • The tri-colour shouldn’t be flown up there, by law and government it’s part of the United Kingdom, simple. You wouldn’t expect the Union Flag to be flown in the republic, why? Because its not apart of the Republic!!!

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  • Chris K 18/12/12 #

    @the journal, can’t say amadán now no?

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  • I find it irritating that both sides to the disagreement in the North of Ireland look for some moral high ground.
    It’s like they think the rest of the world actually has opinions on Northern Ireland. … They don’t care!

    This has nothing to do with flags, religion or monarchs .. this is just a case of 2 tribes that don’t get on.
    Nothing new in history about that.

    With the status quo, Loyalists have everything to loose and Republicans have everything to gain.
    Therefore every so often the Loyalists will kick up a stink to ensure they do not loose what they want to keep, so rapidly.

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  • Wow! Really enjoyed that typically well-informed, restrained and logical debate above! We really think we have come so-far sometimes and then the claws come out over such a stupid issue. The citizens of Northern Ireland, whether some of us like it or not live in and are subject to the laws of the United Kingdom. Many people in that jurisdiction are proud of their nationality – i.e. being British!

    I am Irish, and accordingly I am proud of my nationality and heritage, thus I like seeing the tricolour being flown. British people generally are proud of their heritage and nationality. Why can’t the unionists in Belfast enjoy the same privileges as me, an Irish person in Dublin?

    GFA wasn’t about making Northern Ireland a part of the Republic of Ireland, but ensuring that two disparate communities could learn to co-exist. Part of this is for nationalists who feel Irish to accept that unionists have a right to feel British too!

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  • How can there be a “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” when “Northern Ireland” is not and never has been a kingdom? When Ireland joined the pre-existing united kingdom of Great Britain in 1801 (thanks to massive bribery), the new state became known as the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland” but this state, in effect, ceased to exist in 1922 (though this is the name of the country of which Elizabeth Windsor was crowned queen in 1952!). Perhaps “The United Kingdom of Great Britain plus a bit of North-Eastern Ireland that we have so far managed to hang on to” would be a more accurate name. And as for the 26 counties being “Ireland” – very problematical – which “Ireland” do you mean?. The British Union Flag also contains a territorial claim to the whole of Ireland, as it still includes the Cross of Saint Patrick, added in 1801. The British royal flag also includes a harp to represent Ireland. Maybe it’s time to review ALL flags and titles and their implied territorial claims. Perhaps the “United Kingdom” will cease to exist soon with Scottish secession! I very much hope so.

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  • Eamonn 18/12/12 #

    Another problem apparently too complex for the Irish. It’s quite simple really. When elected representatives rub a community’s nose in it for the twin purposes of political gain and to cause trouble on the streets do not be surprised when they are successful.

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  • If they really want a compromise then fly the Cross of St Patrick. As it is already incorporated into the Union Flag with The Cross’s of St George and St Andrew. When all 3 are combined it makes up the Union Flag.

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  • David Ervine is not the leader of the PUP. He died many years ago. Billy Hutchinson is the leader.

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  • Romanticism and utopian ideology aside, can anyone actually provide a practical solution to integration of Northern Ireland and the Republic?

    How is it going to work? Any time I’ve seen these articles written, there’s always a bandwagon of those try and out do each other on who’s history is right and who’s wrong, nearly always apportioning blame to the ‘other side’. There are others who try to justify the murder of another human being because they were also from the ‘other side’.

    Like it or not, there a nearly a million Brits in Northern Ireland who have absolutely no interest in being part of a united Ireland for a multitude of reasons; that brings with it an inordinate amount of problems. It’s all very well, shouting about how we ‘want the Brits out’ and ‘our country back’ but I’ve yet to see any political party or individual offer a strategic solution that goes beyond rhetoric.

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  • They are Trying to Force The Crown Bill into Ireland South as well as northern Ireland”

    Bill becomes an Act of Parliament

    When a Bill has completed all its parliamentary stages in both Houses, it must have Royal Assent before it can become an Act of Parliament (law).

    Royal Assent is the Monarch’s agreement to make the Bill into an Act and is a formality.

    There is no set time period between the consideration of amendments to the Bill and Royal Assent – it can even be a matter of minutes after Ping Pong is complete.
    What happens at Royal Assent?

    When Royal Assent has been given to a Bill, the announcement is usually made in both Houses – at a suitable break in each House’s proceedings – by the Lord Speaker in the Lords and the Speaker in the Commons.

    At prorogation (the formal end to a parliamentary year), Black Rod interrupts the proceedings of the Commons and summons MPs to the Lords Chamber to hear the Lords Commissioners announce Royal Assent for each Bill.
    After Royal Assent

    The legislation within the Bill may commence immediately, after a set period or only after a commencement order by a Government minister.

    A commencement order is designed to bring into force the whole or part of an Act of Parliament at a date later than the date of the Royal Assent.

    If there is no commencement order, the Act will come into force from midnight at the start of the day of the Royal Assent.

    The practical implementation of an Act is the responsibility of the appropriate government department, not Parliament.

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