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'Have you tried actually applying for something with the Public Services Card? It's a painful experience'

It’s hard to think of one way that the expansion of the card is making life easier for citizens.

I’VE DONE A fair bit of reporting on the Public Services Card (PSC) in recent times.

But I hadn’t experienced first-hand the nightmare of bureaucracy and red tape that the card’s expansion is going to entail.

Until last week that is. So I’ll tell you a quick story.

I have a PSC of my own, a remnant of a brief period on the dole post-college.

At the time (four years ago) I thought very little of the card. It made the whole experience of claiming relatively quick and painless, although I never especially enjoyed the fact it felt like a kind of shame ID, with photo.

Time moved on, I started working again, and the card was dispatched to the back of a drawer and forgotten about and good riddance, I thought. Until last week.

I’m soon to be a dad for the first time. There’s plenty of things to be doing in preparation, one of the lesser ones is to apply for the State’s new-fangled paternity benefit. I’m lucky enough to have an employer who will cover the statutory two weeks allowed, but it makes sense to make sure they get the small allowance as rebate.

As part of the expansion of all welfare services to the PSC (confirmed by Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection [DEASP] Regina Doherty in late August), application for the benefit can only be done online, ostensibly to make things easier and more uniform and to speed up the process.

Computer says no

When you log onto the DEASP portal to apply for the benefit, however, you get directed to the State’s MyGovID site.

If you’re not familiar with this, it’s the overarching ID that the government wants us all to have for the various State services tied to the PSC, with the card acting as the real-world representation of same – as the first part of the card’s expansion all welfare services now require you to have a PSC, and as such the department is pushing the expansion aggressively.

So, you create an ID – the usual rigmarole, you provide your email and a password and you’re away. But then you try to apply for something.

You’re told that you need a verified MyGovID to proceed – that means having a PSC. ‘Whatever,’ you think, ‘I already have one.’ But then you need to verify your address. I no longer live in the same place I did in 2013. You tell the site this. Which brings you, after an error screen pops up during the first two attempts, to:

1 DEASP DEASP

Click here to view a larger image

At this stage, quite apart from the fact I’ve been writing about the dubious nature of the PSC from a data protection (and legal) point of view for several months, I’m starting to get irritated.

I call DEASP up. Wait time… is… 40… minutes, the automated response tells me. So I wait. It turns out to be more like five minutes, although I’m sure many would give up when hearing the initial time estimate.

The (very kind) lady who deals with my query hears me have a mild-mannered rant about how such an appointment is not exactly convenient (how could it be with a very busy full-time job and a baby on the way?) with a sympathetic ear. She attempts to change my address for me (“I’m not sure I’m supposed to do this, but I’ll try”).

The system won’t let her.

“We’ll do it the old-fashioned way,” she says. This means sending me the (supposedly obsolete) paper forms to apply for the benefit. When I return them my address will update automatically (in theory, anyway).

So, to summarise, the online application process is not particularly simple, or adaptable. And that’s for someone who already has a card.

If you don’t have a card, you’re going to have to attend an INTREO office whether you like it or not to get one. This is something my wife will have to do, despite being in the advanced stages of pregnancy, to merely attain the right to apply for her own maternity benefit.

Passport issues

Let’s move on from benefits for a second – what if you’re applying for a first-time passport? Then you need to first get a PSC, before providing a photocopy of same, before you can even file an application.

What if you already have a passport, but want to apply for a driver theory test? Assuming you’re working, you’ll have to take time off from your job at your own expense to attend an INTREO centre to register your various biometric variables for the PSC.

2 RSA RSA

 Click here to view a larger image

Because, the “only form of ID” the Road Safety Authority now recognises is the card. Which, somehow, means the PSC supersedes an internationally-recognised passport as a form of personal identification.

So much for it not being an ID card anyway.

Leaving privacy and data protection issues aside, things governments (and not just Irish ones) don’t exactly have a stellar record on, how on earth is all this bureaucracy making life easier for the average citizen?

People who, for one reason or another, may have never dealt with DEASP in any shape or form in their lives to date? They’re going to know about it soon enough.

Because theory tests and passports are just the beginning, the State wants you to use the PSC for everything in the fullness of time, from hospital appointments to tax returns, prison visits to student grants.

It’s a nightmare of red tape – the advancement of the PSC feels very much like the consequence of many decisions made behind closed doors in State departments with no public oversight – as evidenced by our government TDs merrily stumbling into the privacy-shaped potholes its expansion has created. Mandatory, but not compulsory, anyone?

So even if we don’t care about Big Brother (and we probably should – the creation of a gigantic unwieldy database of citizenry by government bodies sounds like a recipe for data-hacker heaven, just ask Sweden), what specific tangible advantages does a rollout of the PSC create for the ordinary citizen?

At this moment in time, it’s hard to think of even one.

Read: Opinion: ‘We Catalans supported the Irish struggle from 1880 onwards’

Read: Thank you: A letter from my Ophelia-hit house to those who helped us

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72 Comments
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    Mute Jimmy Ireland
    Favourite Jimmy Ireland
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:37 PM

    Applied for my paternity leave online within minutes using the reference number on the card. Benefit came through seamlessly while I was off. If the government told everyone to breathe more air you’d have the same rabble giving out about this holding their breaths.

    328
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    Mute Patabake Kennedy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:45 PM

    @Jimmy Ireland: Ok mr IRELAND?

    93
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    Mute Jointheclubtoo
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:58 PM

    @Jimmy Ireland: Yeah sure ya did, everyone likes you too, eighteen ialmost instantly.

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    Mute Jarlath Murphy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:10 PM

    @Jimmy Ireland: Of course you did @llortlanruoj with the name of journal troll spelt backwards

    Is this what 5million from the

    Special
    Communications
    Unit
    Management

    Gets us?

    68
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    Mute Micko
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:05 PM

    @Jimmy Ireland: that’s bull. I tried with the number on the back and it told me to go and verify my number at my local dsp office. I went to the closest one and they told me the further one away from me was my closest one.

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    Mute Jimmy Ireland
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    Oct 21st 2017, 11:15 PM

    @Mark Murphy: If everyone who had a different view to yours was automatically a FG supporter they’d have an overwhelming majority in the Dáil. It’s perma-moaners like you holding this nation back. Go ring Joe.

    18
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    Mute Paul Coughlan
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 11:11 AM

    @Jimmy Ireland: the problem is most of us will be dead and gone before the impact of the PSC will be felt. Next generation will feel the brunt of big brother/government. Are we allowing this legacy without standing up and be counted. We are a country of 4.5million with little likelihood of a massive increase in population despite some saying by 2040 we’ll have another 1 m citizens. From where I ask. We don’t need this level of ID being imposed.

    8
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    Mute Tom Fennelly
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:44 PM

    It would not allow me to register to pay Revenue and register for tax. It is not accepted to register for ROS (Revenue on Line) I rang support and they told me to enter my driving lisence # and I asked – what if I don’t drive. In any event, I entered the number and it was not accepted. “Is the lisence the old type” I was asked. It took from 5th July until last week to get sorted. Banana Republic is right.

    218
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    Mute Jay Lane
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:26 PM

    These Joan Burton dictator style cards should be accepted for EU travel as atleast they are next to fraud proof so the public should have some silver lining from them. Passport fees are outrageous at twice and more the cost of most other countries. Also driving licence fee a joke and we all know insurance companies are screwing us for their greedy profit.
    Let us use the cards for official ID for buying alcohol and EU travel and the public would be ok with these cards if they actually can have & see uses other than the government issuing ID cards through the backdoor.

    54
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    Mute Declan McArdle
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    Oct 21st 2017, 11:36 PM

    @Jay Lane: the passport card is nice and handy for EU travel…

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    Mute Jay Lane
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:13 AM

    @Declan McArdle: More fees and more fees for the government you think is good? You have to pay for that on top as well has having a full passport at the same time.

    17
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    Mute Niall Sullivan
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:49 PM

    Typical Irish style political bureaucracy. Have a brainwave about something no-one asks for, then implement it even though major concerns have been raised. Then, have no-one employed or responsible for the actual roll-out understand the process in the first place. Then tell everyone it’s not a compulsory card, but deny anyone seeking a drivers licence, passport or dole access without one.

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    Mute bopter
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:15 PM

    I suppose you’re great company socially.

    14
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    Mute Gus Sheridan
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:36 PM

    @Niall Sullivan: what do you expect if you have the dreadful incompetent Regina Doherty’s hand on anything.
    Only in Ireland would this useless minister have a job.

    127
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    Mute Jarlath Murphy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:54 PM

    Surely if people are refusing to accept pass ports and driving licences as means of identity they are implying or suggesting the identification proffered is illegitimate, false or fraudulent?

    In which case the people refused should insist they call the Gardai to have them arrested for false declaration, impersonation or possession of false identification!

    I think we need to get this notion of what is or isn’t acceptable identification clarified as a matter of urgency!

    154
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    Mute John Dman
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:54 PM

    Big sign up in my local credit union saying it will not be accepted as a form of ID

    102
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    Mute Travellingkitty
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:10 PM

    Signed on for first time a few weeks ago – my PSC was not acceptable as ID or proof of address – I had to go home again to get my passport & a recent utility bill. What is the point!

    69
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    Mute Missyb211
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:19 PM

    @Travellingkitty: isn’t that ridiculous!

    27
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    Mute WynnnerZ
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:29 PM

    @Travellingkitty: it’s even worse when you’ve no utility bill which happen to my daughter, she’s 16 and doesn’t have a bank account, luckily it was sorted.

    35
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    Mute Jake Heenan
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:05 PM

    I note that the government straw brains accusing us of having tinfoil hats haven’t arrived yet. Must be something on tonight involving a course in spindoctery. Genuine concerns about handing over all your information to a private company which is anti-EU law. What a country. Will have a cup of tea and wait for them to arrive……….

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    Mute Jarlath Murphy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:17 PM

    @Jake Heenan: Jake apart from the journal troll above I think they are busy on the latest Red C poll, throwing quips about Shinners, Paul Quinn, Gerry, Jorry, Northern banks and who shot Michael Collins!

    They seem to have dropped a gear since they were all salaried up!

    They have become one of the plebian masses they so despise!

    51
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    Mute Patabake Kennedy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:26 PM

    @Jake Heenan: Hear from that lot when the other hounds are running on a Saturday night? some chance.

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    Mute Patabake Kennedy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:41 PM

    @Jarlath Murphy: Just noticed that myself Jar, their on it like fly’s on you know what.

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    Mute Jointheclubtoo
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:24 PM

    @Jake Heenan: It’s the new safety laws you know, they’re required to take a mandatory 3/4 hour break after 5 hours straight trolling. They’ve been busy on other sites, one does miss them though.

    15
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    Mute Paul Radburn
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:51 PM

    Yes, I stayed in the Shelbourne hotel for a week and when I was leaving they didn’t accept my card!

    46
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    Mute Sean
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:25 PM

    @Paul Radburn: that’s because you sneaked out the back exit!

    18
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    Mute Stephen Kearon
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:20 PM

    My son needed a PCS in order to apply for his driving license. Got appointment within few days of ringing, card arrived a week later. Efficient service and simple

    44
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    Mute eastsmer
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 4:09 AM

    @Stephen Kearon: OK but WHY does he need a State ID card to apply for a driving licence ?
    Why for a driving licence and why for a passport ???

    45
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    Mute Stephen Tuohy
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    Oct 27th 2017, 12:53 PM

    @eastsmer:
    And why do you need a passport to sign on when you have a PSC

    4
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    Mute Missyb211
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:59 PM

    What’s the problem again? You couldn’t change your address online? Applying and getting one ia easy and fast enough. I just went to my local intreo office and the process took 10 mins! Only thing that seemed ridiculous was they you to bring photographic evidence(passport or driving licence) and “if you have it already, your birth cert.” I handed over my licence on the day and then was asked did i have my passport and then did i have my birth cert! It was no problem that i didn’t but I mean, you can’t get a driving licence without photographic id, ie. passport and you can’t get a passport without a birth cert! Therefor a driving licence is verification of who i am. Why ask for it all over again.

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    Mute Mark Griffin
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 5:32 AM

    I have no reason to need a PSC, as I do not claim any benefits or require a new passport. However, I received an appointment to visit my local Welfare Office to get my PSC. The time of the appointment was not convenient so I changed online (after registering for my gov id). All good so far. The day of my rearranged appointment, a letter arrives stating I missed my original appointment and another has been scheduled. Perplexed I rang the local office and spoke to the lady (very kind also so I assume she was related to the lady the author met). She advised that in the office they do not have access to the online booking mechanism, so had no idea about my rearranged appointment.
    For something receiving such public backlash, the minimum requirement is to get the booking system right, but no.

    30
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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 7:33 AM

    @Mark Griffin: This is the same dept you are trusting to keep your private personal data safe.

    34
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    Mute Paul O Meara
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    Oct 21st 2017, 7:38 PM

    Give it a few years that card will be used like a credit card from the welfare system

    31
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    Mute Roy Dowling
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:22 PM

    @Paul O Meara: And what would be the problem with that?

    23
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    Mute Gus Sheridan
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:38 PM

    @Paul O Meara: its an identity card , they are lying to us as usual.

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    Mute WynnnerZ
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:26 PM

    @Paul O Meara: doubt it, if you’ve to pay for anything which pretty much involves using your debt card online, electricity, phone, ect, plus direct cash those expenses like having to use a private bus service so my son can get to secondary school(bus eireann are w……..)its unlikely I also pay for my milk to be delivered via cash.

    3
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    Mute Donal Milmo-Penny
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 8:01 AM

    I tried to “drop in” to my local INTREO office to get my National ID card in order to apply for a driver theory test. My name was put on a list so they could write to me with an appointment. The appointment letter arrived with a date 6 weeks later at a time I could not atted due to work.

    Oh yeah… and I already have a driving licence, I’m just looking to add a category. It’s now 3 months later and I’m still not sorted.

    This is burocratic nonsense at its finest!

    33
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    Mute eastsmer
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:26 AM

    Mandatory Compulsory ID Card from our Friends in FFFGLAB – Thanks but NO THANKS

    22
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    Mute Ossi Fritsche
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:19 PM

    Ask the Social Welfare that the Data Collected is actually stored in Ireland, and not in America.

    24
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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:28 PM

    @Ossi Fritsche: it isn’t stored in America no matter how many people make this claim. The closet issue is to do with the driving licence and then it is just the PSC number

    1
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    Mute Eugene Comaskey
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:49 PM

    Fair play to you for providing all that, which goes to show that they have their heads up their ar.e in Government Depts. Does one not now know why the PULSE system is so poor for the Gardai.

    25
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    Mute Ger Kelly
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:53 PM

    Oh boohoo, if you change address you have to prove who you are for any form of application or when renewing a document issued by a government, driving license, passport etc the onus is on you to sort it to be compliant & to protect your data not the system, having a bitch rant about this is just trying to keep the PSC in the limelight with a nothing article, I personally feel it should be a full national ID with a DOB on it so I don’t have to produce any other ID like a passport. Privacy issues are a load of BS any document you need off the state you have to produce documents like birth certs, proof of address, ppsn number most all issued by the state at some stage of your life

    23
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    Mute Patabake Kennedy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:19 PM

    @Ger Kelly: Why would I need Dennis O’Brian on my psc card.

    19
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    Mute GerryCummins
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:01 PM

    Its not an ID card, you are not required to have it on your person, unlike most other EU countrie’s ID card requirements..

    13
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    Mute Jarlath Murphy
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:32 PM

    @GerryCummins: But you are required to have a driving licence in your possession while driving!
    Don’t know too many people leave valuable documents like their driving licences in their car glove compartments?

    12
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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Oct 21st 2017, 9:50 PM

    @GerryCummins: Maybe not yet, Wait until they have issued everyone with one. It’s a Biometric ID card by the back door. Your mobile phone is linked to it why? The Community CCTVs being rolled out contain software for facial recognition. Facial recognition is the Biometric part of the card (so far), so everyone of these Community CCTVs will be easily able to identify you as you unknowningly walk along the street. The Gardai are demanding 24hr access to these cameras.
    This PSC is far from the benign instrument as spun by the government. The potential for abuse by government or public/government is huge. They have lied about it, about what it is and it’s purpose, there is no legislation to support such an intrusive card, the card has never been debated in Dail Eireann.
    So many questions about this card, so few answers. Like does EU law and regulation apply to the data held on this card? One question that has never been asnwered or dealt with, for example.

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    Mute WynnnerZ
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:27 PM

    @Jarlath Murphy: the new licence is lovely small and handy

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    Mute eastsmer
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:25 AM

    @GerryCummins: Not yet…

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    Mute Felicity Hensen
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:27 AM

    @Dave Doyle: I got a letter a few weeks ago asking me if I wanted the details and photo I used for my drivers licence to be used for PSC. I also have concerns about the true use of the information attached to the card, and who’ll have access to it.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:26 PM

    @Dave Doyle: you are talking nonsense. There is no way the information can be passed to gardai to link with cctv. Then you have the fact the information isn’t detailed enough to be used in that way. There are also laws stopping that even being attempted.
    You are just making up stuff

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    Mute phil
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 4:08 PM

    @Kal Ipers: Even if this was the case the thousands of people that walk past these cameras the only reason you would be identified is if you have committed a crime.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 6:46 PM

    @Felicity Hensen: Community CCTVs being rolled out across the country has the software for facial recognition already programmed in them. The Gardai want 24hr access to these cameras. Does anyone, including Karl Ipers below who says i’m talking nonesense, think that the Biometric data on the PSC will not be used by these cameras to identify anyone in its range?
    This card has already gone way beyond the stated purpose of “stopping SW fraud” . Gone beyond the excuse for them to a national identifer. There is no legislation in force for this intrusion into people’s lives.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 6:48 PM

    @phil: Are you for real? All these cameras need is the Biometric data to identify you, criminal or not.
    Some people don’t want to wake up to the reality of what is going on in the country.

    4
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    Mute Derek Power
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:27 AM

    General Data Protection Regulation comes into play at the end of May 2018. This card is being ran by a government whose departments are constantly leaving documents in public places or bringing laptops with sensitive information out from the office and losing them. You can be guaranteed they have not thought about GDPR compliance nor are they even ready for. Also biometric data? WTF is that needed for exactly? The sh!tstorm the gov is blindly sailing into with this is scary.

    14
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    Mute Nigel Mcatamney
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 10:05 AM

    Had mine 3 years now. got my full licence, passport renewal and used it in Tallaght tax office several times. Suprisingly also worked in the post office when i had to claim illness benefit for 3 weeks off work….. Iv had friends have problems with it, but this has been mainly due to them not changing address with govt bodies when they have moved house or not changing names after marriage or divorce. For the most part its quite handy.

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    Mute Albert Brennerman
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 9:34 AM

    A common primary key to link all data together, big data. It’s when private entities begin to request it to register you have an extremely dangerous situation where you can be stripped of anonymity and unless your health history,welfare history is legislatively protected it could be far too late. Private hospitals will request they may seek to sell that on. Needs legislation on who can store the number or any proxy associated too. That will not happen.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
    Favourite Kal Ipers
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:30 PM

    @Albert Brennerman: the laws are already in place and the information isn’t stored like you claim. The hospitals cannot and will not have access to your social welfare records.

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    Mute Mary Lyons
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:58 PM

    Maybe you have to become 70 but I have so much ID on small plastic cards I think I could get into Fort Knox and be given a glass of champagne for just turning up!

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    Mute Nick Allen
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:43 PM

    Did you write the basis of the article before you actually applied ?

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    Mute Eileen O'Sullivan
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:17 PM

    I was not I firmed that biometric data was being collected when it was. They said it was a photo. It was like being burgled. Like robbed of dna without permission.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
    Favourite Kal Ipers
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 12:32 PM

    @Eileen O’Sullivan: it still remains a photo and nothing more you are listening to idiot conspiracy theories.

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    Mute eastsmer
    Favourite eastsmer
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 11:22 AM

    And then today €200,000 of our public money is being spent by ‘Fine’ Gael to Propandagise the ID Card

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-plans-200-000-public-services-card-campaign-1.3265101

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    Mute Christine o'donnell
    Favourite Christine o'donnell
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    Oct 21st 2017, 8:51 PM

    Could you just clarify one thing for me Cianan? Are you having a baby or not?

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    Mute Micheál O'Flaherty
    Favourite Micheál O'Flaherty
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    Oct 24th 2017, 9:06 AM

    You have a had a tiny experience of what special needs parents encounter every day. The purpose of the bureaucracy is to make you give up and muddle through on your own.

    Answer honestly, if you weren’t claiming paternity benefit the for an article would you have stuck with it?

    What really ticks me off is when some red-tape jockey tells you “I’m not supposed to, but”. Services you have paid for and are entitled to handed out on a grace-and-favour basis. Rant over!

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    Mute Peter
    Favourite Peter
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    Oct 21st 2017, 10:46 PM

    Yeah was a very simple process

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    Mute Martin Hoey
    Favourite Martin Hoey
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    Oct 25th 2017, 7:47 AM

    Credit unions wont accept it as id or proof of pps as it is not a legal id card i was told it is been brought to a court test by a credit union about its use. Intreo offices should open saturdays and sundays to allow workers access cards or else legislation is made to compensate emplyers and employees for time lost by staff having to get pictures taken during working hours

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    Mute Mark Graham
    Favourite Mark Graham
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    Nov 6th 2017, 7:10 AM

    Presented my PSC card recently at an NCT centre and I was told it was not an acceptable form of id at NCT centres. They tested my car but would not give me my cert.until I returned with either a drivers license or passport. So a goverment established revenue gathering quango declines the PSC card. Its an absolute joke.

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    Mute Martin Hoey
    Favourite Martin Hoey
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    Oct 25th 2017, 7:47 AM

    Credit unions wont accept it as id or proof of pps as it is not a legal id card i was told it is been brought to a court test by a credit union about its use. Intreo offices should open saturdays and sundays to allow workers access cards or else legislation is made to compensate emplyers and employees for time lost by staff having to get pictures taken during working hours

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    Mute Mark Graham
    Favourite Mark Graham
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    Nov 6th 2017, 7:14 AM

    NCT centres will not accept PSC cards. Passports or driving licenses only. Its a joke.

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    Mute Anthony Halpin
    Favourite Anthony Halpin
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    Oct 22nd 2017, 1:03 PM

    Ah, there’s Roisin Wade Higginbottom on the card.

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    Mute Sinéad Connolly
    Favourite Sinéad Connolly
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    Jan 6th 2019, 7:21 PM

    Just attempted to do something online with the USELESS website. Despite supplying all details requested, I can’t complete the transaction as I laughably need a disposable code sent out by pigeon post. It’s an exercise in job creation as it necessitates making a phonecall or attending an office regardless of satisfying all the website hurdles. Happy New Year 1988 technology!

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    Mute Rachel Mahoney
    Favourite Rachel Mahoney
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    Oct 23rd 2017, 2:07 PM

    It is no good as proof as your PPS number in some credit unions. This is ridiculous as it has your picture and a chip on it.

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