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Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald Leah Farrell via RollingNews.ie

Sinn Féin makes gains in new poll, while government parties stay far behind

Sinn Féin’s gains come after a significant dip in the polls in June, when the party lost 5%.

SINN FÉIN’S POPULARITY is rising again, according to the latest Business Post/Red C poll, which shows Fine Gael down a percentage point and support for Fianna Fáil unchanged since the end of June.

Their coalition partner, the Green Party, made no losses or gains, staying at 4%.

Meanwhile, support for opposition parties Solidarity-People Before Profit (3%) and the Social Democrats (5%) also remains unchanged. Labour went down one percentage point and is now on 4%

Sinn Féin’s 31% comes after a significant dip in the polls in June when the party lost five percentage points. The two percentage point increase published today was gained during the Dáil’s summer recess.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil lag behind and are now on 21% and 16% respectively.

Aontú made a small gain of one percentage point, while Independents/Others lost a point.

Parties have been having their annual Think-Ins over the past two weeks, which observers say  were used for strategising for the next general election.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:07 AM

    I did 5 years of french and 14 years of irish. The french was taught as a spoken language to communicate through whereas the irish was taught like english – prose, poetry, essay writing, language history.

    I reckon I spent half my time studying Irish because of the amount of homework given, and I did a lot of homework.

    And so seventeen years after the leaving certificate, I can still go to a french speaking country and communicate. I can talk to the locals in their language and get by pretty easily.

    I have not said anything in Irish since the leaving cert and if anyone spoke to me in irish (including my two nephews attending irish school) they might aswell be talking in klingon as i have no memory of it….. Or use for it.

    Teach it the way they teach french, german, italian and spanish as a conversational language and it might be saved. Keep it the way it is and it will die.

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    Mute David McDonald
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:22 AM

    I’ve been saying the same thing myself Conor, the author said it himself, irish required a lot of work so he sidelined it for other subjects, i have irish speaking cousins that hated being taught it in school due to the intense poetry and mandatory novel to study, I can hold still hold conversations with them today in irish but not because of how I was taught it, it should be taught same as French and German and let those yah want to study the literature go on and specialise in an honours class

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    Mute Martin Bishop
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:44 AM

    Couldn’t agree more Conor,

    The way the schools teach Irish is completely wrong, so much so it puts people off the subject.

    I was awful at Irish in school and I honestly couldn’t string a sentence together now if I was asked or even understand a full sentence, yet I have atleast a basic understanding of French and can understand atleast some sentences.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:10 AM

    I agree – I think there should be an Applied Irish subject, where you can get as much as a B grade for spoken Irish alone.

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:23 AM

    Excellent thread people. I was talking to a secondary school Geography / Irish teacher last week and from what he told me, most teachers think the Irish curriculum is crap…too much emphysis on poetry / grammar and not enough spoken language. Definitely onto something here.. Well done

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:24 AM

    Good to know I am not alone in my experiences of it.

    About two months before the leaving certificate I realised there was no point in me studying irish anymore as I couldnt cram in any more poetry or hypothetical essays on drug use in ireland (hard enough in english let alone another language), so I decided to stop studying it and focus on the subjects I needed for third level i.e. maths, biology and geography. I can still remember the absolute crazed attitude of the teacher and the hysterical shouting at me that I was being stupid and unreasonable and needed irish for university – my simple answer was “not for trinity I don’t” left her red faced and silent.

    One of the things that really annoys me though are the irish speakers (usually wearing that little gold ring on their lapel) who seem to think that because you don’t speak irish you are not patriotic or are some sort of a second class citizen. Or the irish speakers that try and cajole you into saying “ah sure ya’d love to be able to speak it wouldn’t ya, try a few words, it’ll come back to ya, ya still have it in ya”….. at that point I usually start talking french back to them :)

    I am very proud to be Irish, I love our culture and our history of which our language is part, but I do not need it to express myself as an Irish citizen, no am I in anyway unloyal or unpatriotic to our nation.

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:50 AM

    Conor…. brilliant reply….your personal story says it all…..i.e. your teacher didnt try to tell you it was a wonderful language worth studying… instead you were warned that ” you need a pass to get into University”. Irish speakers out there they should read your comment carefully as you are not being negative about the language or your irishness… well done

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    Mute Jack Bowden
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:33 AM

    Teach it as a foreign language please.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:05 AM

    Hi guys – thanks for the comments – there is some interesting evidence here that says in essence, FRENCH, SPANISH etc are easier to learn for us than Irish because ENGLISH is our first language. The Yanks (who carried out this research) estimate it can take half the time to learn French as Irish! If your interested check out this link:.
    The US Department of State: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers has carried out extensive research into relative ease of language learning. They have created 3 Language Categories which native English speakers can use to broadly assess the relative difficulty of learning certain languages. In essence it shows that lanugages like french, spanish and italian take on average almost half the time to learn as Irish (for a native English speaker). So where French and Spanish are listed In Category I as “Languages Closely Related to English”, Irish is listed in Category II for “Languages with significant linguistic and/or cultural differences from English.” i.e. French is EASIER to learn….

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:12 AM

    As regards the learning of irish and poetry/prose etc. Poetry and prose is a real killer in Irish (as well as English..) but the problem is that many students are already wayyyyy beyond asking how to get to the toilet or the supermarché. Therefore they need the linguistic challenge of analysing and discussing current affairs, prose etc, to further develop their language talents. It would be almost impossible to spend 14 years learning “conversation” without getting into subject matter (be it poetry, prose, current affairs) that some students would inevitably find boring. As someone said, maybe we need to focus pass irish (with less poetry etc) and on more straightforward discussion only and have honours for those who want to bring their Irish to a top linguistic level in both written and spoken…??

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:29 AM

    Hi Dermot,

    I did Honours Irish and I found the oral test the most interesting part. A higher standard of spoken Irish as part of an honours level subject, that could get you high marks for speaking it alone, would be attractive to many students. If people want to study the existing honours Irish curriculum, with more of a focus on written comprehension as Gaeilge, that should be available too.

    Applied Maths has shown us that there is more than one way to teach a subject.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:03 PM

    I dont know enough about the formation of language curriculum to really give a good opinion on this. However there is an issue of standards – i mean if a child from an irish home or a child from a gaelscoil can almost pass an honours irish exam on the basis of being able to speak it only, then surely this undermines the whole points system? everyone would do irish because it was EASY… maybe that’s the secret to language revival, guarantee everyone an honour A or B… :)

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:11 PM

    Guys. I believe this has been the best string on the subject of Irish language learning that I have seen. Well done

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:35 PM

    “if a child from an irish home or a child from a gaelscoil can almost pass an honours irish exam on the basis of being able to speak it only, then surely this undermines the whole points system? everyone would do irish because it was EASY… maybe that’s the secret to language revival, guarantee everyone an honour A or B… :)”

    And what’s wrong with that? A person who speaks French at home would have an advantage over the rest of us too.

    If the goal of teaching Irish is getting people to speak Irish, then yes, make spoken Irish a subject to get a few more points in.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:00 PM

    Floodzie; you got me there…my daughter will certainly be happy with your proposal!
    :)

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    Mute Jack Bowden
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:16 PM

    Dermot according to that US research, Romanian is easier to learn than Irish for us. That’s mad, think of the geography like.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:36 PM

    Yes and once the NEED energy was brought into the equation, you create ramjet effect.
    I taught Irish for 20 years, and always made it fun.
    We might do well also to look into our collective consciousness and see the past memories re our language .The collective memory re not allowed to speak our own language is there. It always is in our DNA.
    This needs to be addressed first and foremost.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:53 PM

    Hi Catherine – yes indeed, there is a certain amount of the ‘cultural cringe’, some people hear Irish spoken in front of foreigners and are a little embarrassed about it, almost apologetic.

    I don’t know where that reaction comes. I used to feel a little like that once, but I am at a loss to think where it comes from. Post-colonialism? A feeling of not measuring-up? Not sure.

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    Mute Adam Bieganski
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:17 PM

    I don’t even think research is necessary here.

    French, Spanish and Italian are Romance languages. For historical reasons, English shares vast vocabulary (esp. the more ‘posh’ portion) with them, despite being a Germanic language. Also, English grammar, though very simplified in many respects (almost non-existent conjugation in English vs having to learn a lot of conjugation tables in French for example), is very similar to that of Romance languages.

    Irish vocabulary is mainly as if from outer space – not similar to anything familiar. Even words which come from Latin are largely mangled almost beyond recognition by the specific Irish spelling (it took me a long time to connect the dots here, for example: diabolus – diabhail – devil – and this is a very simple case!).

    But the real killer is the grammar. Any grammar which has non-trivial declension of nouns and adjectives will be very hard to learn for an English native speaker (and most native speakers of other languages, even those with declension, unless the two languages are closely related – which many times causes the learners to make very specific mistakes in the learned language by the way).

    Also, as far as I know, many Irish grammatical constructs are simply ancient, and as such – awkward to use. German “verb at the end of the sentence” is hard, because you have to keep the verb in memory until the end of the sentence, but this is incomparable with some Irish syntax quirks.

    As a non-native I will not express my opinion on the ‘patriotic’ and ‘national inheritance’ aspects of speaking Irish. I would just like to mention that patriotism is also, for example, paying your taxes, caring for your country and co-citizens, fighting for a better future for your children, and not only symbolic gestures, like speaking Irish in the Dail or at ard Fheis (I know I spelled it wrong), or in the European Parliament.

    Note that non-English speaking countries have to accept that English is today’s lingua franca, and the Irish are lucky in that respect to be its native speakers. I am not negating all the bad things done to the Irish by the British of course, but let history be history, and notice that today’s reality is that you can, if you want or must, emigrate to other English speaking countries without much problem – your children will still be able to speak to their granny and grandpa without any problem. And also – many American and British businesses have invested in Ireland because Ireland is an English-speaking country!

    And before you teach Irish, please also make sure that you’ve taught English properly. So many people in Ireland cannot spell properly, cannot differentiate between an adjective and an adverb. “Must of been”, “Here’s you’re pen”, “Your brilliant”, “Do it quick”.

    So if you want Irish to survive, make it optional. This is much better than pumping billions into teaching it as a mandatory subject. Even if the number of pupils drops, those teachers of Irish will not be unemployed, I’m sure they can teach English, for example, without any problem. Especially that there are a number of immigrant parents, for whom schools have to pay for interpreters, because those parents do not have any English!

    And here’s something that is simply beyond me:
    There are proposals that Irish classes be organised for non-national parents for them to help their children with their Irish homework (I’m not joking). How about teaching the children themselves??? Shall we organise chemistry classes for parents, too?

    You might say it’s the immigrants’ problem. Well, fine. But then – either make Irish optional, or just expel all the immigrants? If you make Irish optional, you will be able to save money by not paying for interpreters (that’s just for starters) – you can teach English to those parents, much more cheaply. And those who elect Irish will really speak and love this language. If you expel immigrants, the tax base will probably shrink so that you will not be able to teach Irish at all.

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    Mute Marko Burns
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:17 PM

    Yes the problem is that nationalism is far too mixed up in all this. It is all about the semantics of ‘English’ and ‘Irish’ as opposed to ‘Irish’ – the way we both write and speak English so uniquely, and ‘Gaelic’ – the peasant language that was popular a few hundred years ago. We should be far more proud of the way we have put our own stamp on English world wide, and yet we seem embarrassed and perceive it as an affront to our identity when it is plainly the other way around – it is through our unique use of english that we have affirmed our true identity.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:49 PM

    You seem to be using ‘peasant’ as a pejorative term… If so it says a lot about your attitude to Irish.

    Don’t you mean ‘native’? Irish speakers had an aristocracy and a nobility before colonialism, far removed from ‘peasantry’.

    Also, Hiberno-English is the English we speak here, and I don’t know anyone who calls Irish ‘Gaelic’.

    I agree we should be proud of our unique stamp on English (arguably the influence of an Gaeilge), but I think we already are.

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    Mute Roisin
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:57 PM

    Exactly my sentiments! I just came out of my Irish oral yesterday. I think the 40% oral is a good idea, but those who could afford the Gaeltacht (no matter how many scholarships I applied for), gaelscoileanna or were native speakers, tend to reap the benefits. I think if I had gone, my nerves probably would of been marginally sedated. The sraith pictiúrs are a nice theory but having 20 places an emphasis on rote learning. There should be five, like German and role plays like in the Spanish oral. I was lucky in that I crammed basic vocab and basic paragraphs the night before, but once again, I got by because I recited things off. He asked me what I thought of bullying online and I froze. I couldn’t even formulate a sentence. I managed to stammer out “c’est depend..le daoine”. I dropped to ordinary Irish recently simply because I lack the ambition for higher level coupled with an awful teacher. The difference is baffling. Irish should be considered a foreign language. There is no comparison between it and the way foreign languages are taught.

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    Mute frank maguire
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    Jun 14th 2014, 2:36 PM

    Even in University they have no self awareness when it comes to teaching it.
    Studying French or German or Spanish is more challenging in University and frankly more interesting than studying Irish (and i spent all of my schooling through Irish, primary secondary and got my H.Dip all through Irish).
    In secondary schools they need to cop on and do it right obviously but even for those interested there is a stark contrast between how “modern” languages and Irish is treated in University.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:39 AM

    A sensible, thought-provoking article about Irish – thanks!

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    Mute Tammy Ní Laoire
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:53 AM

    An-phíosa! Ciallmhar, loighciúil, macánta.

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    Mute Damian O'Brien
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:26 AM

    Translation please if you don’t mind.

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    Mute Dónal Ó Maoláin
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:41 AM

    An fhianaise dóibh nach bhfuil an teanga marbh…maith thú Tammy…

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:31 AM

    Damian, Tammy is saying the article is good, sensible / honest while Donal is complimenting Tammy on her irish skills. I notice neither bothered to translate for you …. another example of Irish being used as a tool to segragate the “worthy” from the rest of the population.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:42 AM

    I think Damian was being ignored because he sounded, rightly or not, like he was trolling (I was going to write that as Gaeilge ;-)

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:55 AM

    Raibh mé in ann freisin, ach ba mhaith liom a bheith cuimsitheach “I could also, but I want to be inclusive”

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    Mute Sarah Clifford
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:04 AM

    Your wasting your time asking. Your dealing with a gaelgore snob here

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    Mute Phil West
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:09 AM

    Sarah,
    If you apply your logic to yourself, you are an Anglosnob. Inclusiveness cuts both ways.
    Gach deá ghuí!

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:54 PM

    Given that the article suggests that one of our national weaknesses (with regard to language learning) is our reluctance to use the language, i find it pretty depressing that contributors who actually used their Irish in response are criticised as being “elitist” or a language “snob”…..can the irish language haters not just live and let live?

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 3:02 PM

    There is certainly a lot of hostility towards Irish here (plenty of great comments on both sides of the argument too), but The Journal comments section is not typical of Irish attitudes. We know from other threads that plenty of racists post here too, and they are certainly in the minority. Same for Irish – so don’t think that there is major hostility towards Irish in the general population.

    Most people I know are generally very well-disposed towards the language.

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    Mute Tammy Ní Laoire
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    Apr 1st 2014, 5:24 PM

    Actually, I had posted a bilingual comment earlier this morning, but for some reason it wasn’t published! Tá brón orm!

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    Mute Críostóir Ó Faoláin
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    Apr 1st 2014, 6:47 PM

    An féidir leat aistrúcháin a chur ar fáil dom? Ní maith liom Béarla a léamh,

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    Mute Sarah Clifford
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:23 PM

    Phil its people like you who put me off leaning the language

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    Mute Jaymie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:29 AM

    We don’t need to speak Irish.better of learning Spanish German French or another language that is of benefit to us

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:39 AM

    How about you start with English?

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    Mute Katie Ryan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:42 AM

    Learning a second language (any language) will help when it comes to learning others. So it absolutely will be of benefit to you.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:50 AM

    I used to work with an Indian woman who spoke 4 languages, not a bother on her!

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    Mute Jaymie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:54 AM

    Floodzie that is English.what language do you think it is? Chinese?

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    Mute Fergal McDonagh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:15 AM

    Well Jaymie, I hate to tell you, but your grammar and punctuation are woeful.

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    Mute Jaymie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:15 AM

    It’s still English though.im 31 years of age and I’ve managed to survive this far with bad grammar.i reckon il be ok with the standard I have.the only problem I have with it is,little people on here correcting it.but if it makes them feel big and important I’m happy to make these guys day.it must be a sad life when you feel you have to correct someone’s grammar on a website

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    Mute Barry Creed
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:54 AM

    Plenty of jobs in Spain these days isn’t there?

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    Mute Jaymie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:56 AM

    Barry Spain isn’t the only country that speaks Spanish.

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    Mute Proinsias Ó Foghlú
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:14 AM

    @Jaymie Oscar Wilde must have had you in mind when he wrote this:

    “The only thing that ever consoles man for the stupid things he does is the praise he always gives himself for doing them.”

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:17 AM

    你的拼寫是壞的, Jaymie.

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    Mute Andrew McCarthy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:23 AM

    @Katie, I’ve often seen people claim that learning Irish will help them to learn other languages. Can you explain why they shouldn’t just learn one of those other languages in the first instance?

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:35 AM

    Hi Andrew,

    I see your point, but isn’t that a bit like asking why anyone should learn Welsh or Flemish or whatever their own language is, and just learn a language based solely on the number of speakers it has?

    What people value in Irish is (I hope) the fact that it is ‘our’ language, a part of us. Not very tangible or something you can necessarily put a monetary value on – but essential to us being, well, us.

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    Mute Andrew McCarthy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:00 AM

    No, it’s not. I’m asking how the forced learning of Irish is somehow better for learning foreign languages than just letting people learn those languages in the first place. I’m not stopping anyone from learning Irish if that’s what they want to do.

    And then you say that the language is an essential part of “us”. Few of us can speak it, even less of us actually do. How essential can it be?

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:06 AM

    Hi Andrew,

    We listen to the same music, watch the same films, read the same books, wear the same clothes as most of the rest of the Anglosphere, I would say it is pretty essential! :-)

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    Mute Aisling Ní Chonaill
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    Apr 1st 2014, 3:43 PM

    @Andrew Why can’t they learn more than one language? I studied four languages for the Leaving, including Irish, and somehow turned out fine. Is there some kind of law that says you have to choose between Irish and other languages?

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    Mute Andrew McCarthy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 5:14 PM

    Aisling, yes there is “some kind of law” like that. It says you must learn Irish whether you want to or not, when you could instead be doing something else.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 5:27 PM

    Andrew – and studying Shakespeare, cloud formations, electron valencies… these are also things we have to learn, like it or not, whether we use them or not. It’s called an education.

    Honestly, you sound like a 5 year old refusing to put on his shoes…

    Have you met Ross? He’s on this thread somewhere. You’ll like him.

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    Mute Aisling Ní Chonaill
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 1:30 PM

    .

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    Mute Simon O'Shea
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:57 AM

    I’m extremely proud to be Irish and do believe the language should be taught in primary school but it should be optional in secondary school. Those with an interest in carrying on can do so and those without can focus on another subject. It serves no practical purpose except reinforcing our national identity by showing we’re different to other English speaking countries because we have our own language. However I don’t feel this is entirely necessary. I think we can be proudly Irish without having to speak Irish. I am.

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    Mute John Doyle
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:43 AM

    While I won’t begrudge anyone about learning irish I say it is a useless language to have in terms of how I can use globaly but in terms of culture or heritage it would be fantastic to have.

    I think the author is incorrect about the way irish is taught in school, they need to teach it in a fun engaging way not teach it like they thought English

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    Mute John Lawless
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:49 AM

    There are only so many ways a subject can be taught. If someone simply doesn’t want to learn it, then they’re not going to benefit from any kind of curriculum.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:55 AM

    Fair enough, but should education be entertainment? Is the simple fact you have to tough it out and persevere with something you don’t (initially at least) like, a good learning experience?

    I stuck with Irish even though I found it boring at first, and learned to love it. I found the whole experience beneficial once I got to college and had many more subjects I couldn’t see much joy in! :-) Learning Irish taught me how to learn.

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    Mute Emily Elephant
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:02 AM

    Yes, education should be entertainment. It’s far more likely to be effective that way, as well as a habit that will stay with you all your life.

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    Mute Aideen O M
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:29 AM

    I still blame the curriculum for a lot of it. I worked hard at Irish, came out with an A2 but I still wasn’t fluent. I could write essays on the vices and virtues in An Triail and the effect of onomatopoeia in the Irish poems but probably couldn’t have a conversation with you about the environment/politics etc.
    There is something wrong there. When people are learning Irish, they know that they get the points for learning stuff off rather than being fluent so there’s no major push to better their spoken Irish. Teachers should also enforce the rule that Irish classes are English free zones. We need to have free/very cheap Irish classes available for adults all over the country. Even if you come out of school fluent, it’s very hard to hold on to it.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:32 AM

    Conradh na Gaeilge charge about 160 Euros for classes, cheap enough. Still should be tax-deductible, though.

    I’m all for an Applied Irish subject that students could choose to take instead of the traditional curriculum after the Junior Cert, and that would give almost all marks for spoken Irish alone. A language exists to be spoken, after all…

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:13 AM

    As i said in the article Aideen – it’s hard to become “fluent” without complete immersion in the language for a period – this is impossible in a school context only. The truth is your irish was probably dammmmmm good but you didnt get (or create) the chance to speak it outside of school….

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    Mute Aideen O M
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 1:13 AM

    You could easily become fluent if you were learning spoken Irish every day and just speaking Irish in class. Then if you were fluent, naturally you’d want to speak in Irish more. But the way it is now, whats the point in me rattling off some essay about the Celtic tiger? That doesn’t make me want to speak more Irish. My Irish was good learnt Irish. I wasn’t anywhere near fluent leaving school.

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    Mute DesBod
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:20 AM

    There must be recognition of the right to not have this dead language forced upon individuals. By all means encourage people to learn it, but by forcing people to, all that is being achieved is resentment and deprivation of time that could/should be spent on reading writing and arithmetic

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:17 AM

    A minority language, with a small community? But dead!? Ridiculous….

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    Mute Kian David Griffin
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:19 AM

    I have somehow ended up with a good level in 4 languages besides English. That includes Irish and near fluency in Spanish and French. I still need to work on the Slovakian though (my fiancé is from there before anyone asks). It is so much easier to pick up extra languages after you have learned one already…Irish in my case :)

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    Mute Dee4
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:40 AM

    Essentially Irish is a dead language like Latin , so while it has value, there is more in for my kids learning European languages. Last summer on holidays for instance we were able to enroll the kids in local kids summer camps, they could play with the neighbours kids, museum visits yada yada, its simply impossible to have this experience with Irish. Not to mention with the low standard of language teaching here…A “banked” job done!

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:47 AM

    While Irish has a small number of speakers compared to French or Spanish (but not compared to most other Celtic languages), it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s a dead language. If people speak a language it’s not dead.

    The resources, enthusiasm and pride around learning Irish are far better now than when I was a child.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:07 AM

    thats fine, if you can make it work good for you, in our case we are not in a position to but are in a position to make learning a European language work

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    Mute Fergal McDonagh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:16 AM

    It’s not dead. I encounter it three or four times a week.

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    Mute Sean P
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:12 AM

    Dee4,
    You stated
    “is more in for my kids learning European languages” … Irish is a European language and to the best of my knowledge there is no limit as to how many languages a person is allowed to learn.
    Weirdly, the gaeltacht language schools are regularly booked by continental europeans to come and study Irish.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:43 AM

    Dee4 – when I read your response i wonder did you actually read the article….?

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    Mute Sean O'Keeffe
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:52 AM

    I believe the author plays down the significance of Welsh and Hebrew language revival compared with what to date can only be described as a failed project in Ireland.

    Measuring language proficiency and fluency for statistical purposes can be difficult and misleading. But in stark terms in 2011 Wales with a population of about 3 million could had more than 340,000 inhabitants who claimed to speak Welsh on a daily basis. In the same year Ireland with 4.5 million had 72,000 using Irish on a daily basis. Yet Ireland has provided significantly greater resources, for language revival, over a longer period.

    The key to Ireland’s failure has been the treatment of the indigenous language as a public good.

    https://sites.google.com/site/failedrevival/

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:09 PM

    Sean, any idea how many Welsh were speaking Welsh in the 1920s as compared with how many irish spoke irish at the same point in time? From vague memory i think they’ve had alot more speakers than us for a long time so though they had few official resources they still had native speakers using and keeping it alive between generations….

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    Mute Tennis Leadog
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:04 AM

    Countries of a similar size to us like Denmark and Finland have kept their languages alive even though they have huge neighbbours i.e Germany and Russia. Maybe it’s because English is an international that we’ve let Irish get in to the state it is now.

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    Mute Naoise Gaffney
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:28 AM

    In Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark the first language they learn is their own. Their language is spoken and used daily by 99% of the population. English is taught as a second language from age 9, though most children have a good smattering of it already from watching English/American TV/movies. The exception is Finland where Swedish is commonly the second language, or first in some minor areas, similar to our primarily Irish speaking areas. The Danes living along the German border generally speak German too due to access to German TV channels.

    Norwegians, Danes and Swedes understand each other as their languages are similar enough. This makes their languages a little more “useful” than Irish.

    In Ireland, English is the primary language, and Irish a distant second. The only valid comparison is possibly one with Finland, looking at it from the smaller Swedish-speaking enclave.

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    Mute David Jordan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:18 AM

    I can see the value in learning a language, that’s why I kept up my German when I left school and am now teaching myself some Japanese, however I felt no need and even less desire to kept up the little Irish I had.
    The difference is that I like German and Japanese culture and I feel that I become more involved in their culture and less like an outsider in Germany or Japan if I speak the language.
    The Irish language speakers have never really done anything that would make me want to be part of their culture, in fact they’ve done quite the opposite
    Have the Irish speakers ever considered that one of their biggest problems is that trying to increase the number of Irish speakers by making it a mandatory subject has had the opposite effect and has turn a large number of people who would other wise be apathetic towards the language into people who actually dislike it?

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    Mute Nelly Bergman
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:04 PM

    My junior was playing online one day, teaming up with his classmate against portuguese players. Speaking English was a disadvantage, they couldn’t discuss the tactics, whereas portuguese could. And guess what – after a short while our lads switched to gaelic. Don’t ask me how good/bad it was, can’t tell you, but it seemed to do the trick.
    Necessity is a mother of many things. Irish is no exception to this rule, that’s why it has become a cultural niche phenomenon. Ancient and lovely historical artifact. But you never know where it might come handy.
    Having said that, we aren’t less Irish for not speaking Gaelic. Gaelic simply a cherry on top of the Irishness.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 3:00 PM

    “Gaelic simply a cherry on top of the Irishness” – Very nicely put Nelly!!!
    David – I think you need to meet Irish speakers half way with regard to using it – there are clubs, speaking circles, gaeltacht courses, online blogs, online newschannels, learning forums..have you tried any. All these groups are hungry for new members… What more can and should the Irish language community do to get David Jordan on board….?

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    Mute David Jordan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:50 AM

    The flaw in McNally’s arguement is that despite less class time being devoted to it, most students are far better in their second European language then they are in Irish, that suggests a problem in the way Irish is taught compared to other languages rather then the alleged reluctance of English speakers to learn another language.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:58 AM

    Hi David,
    Fair point. I actually had to cut a point out that addressed this very issue – The US Department of State: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers has carried out extensive research into relative ease of language learning. They have created 3 Language Categories which native English speakers can use to broadly assess the relative difficulty of learning certain languages. In essence it shows that lanugages like french, spanish and italian take on average almost half the time to learn as Irish (for a native English speaker). So where French and Spanish are listed In Category I as “Languages Closely Related to English”, Irish is listed in Category II for “Languages with significant linguistic and/or cultural differences from English.” i.e. French is EASIER to learn….

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    Mute David Jordan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:30 AM

    That listing systems seems rather subjective, I some how doubt that Irish is as culturally and structurally different as Farsi or Zulu.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:00 PM

    Having studied french and italian at third level i can fully understand how Irish is substantially different to any of these and English. I never studied Farsi or Zulu so you might have one over on me there… :)

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    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:07 PM

    @ David – Irish is certainly not that culturally different to English, but structurally it is quite different which is probably why it is in the second category mentioned by Dermot. Irish, like all Celtic languages and unlike pretty much every other European language, has a different syntax. The verb comes first followed by the subject and then the object. Irish has no yes-no system, instead preferring to simply repeat the verb in the positive or negative. Most European languages conjugate their verbs according to a 2×3 rule, i.e. first person singular, second person singular, third person singular, first person plural, etc. Irish has a 2×3+1 rule, where we have the same system but also a fully conjugated, tense and mood sensitive independent version of the verb (compare the single Irish word “meastar” with its English equivalent “it is believed/understood”). Irish also makes substantial use of the copula. Unlike English, but like many European languages, Irish nouns are classified according to a grammatical gender system (with the adjective agreeing in both gender and number). The spelling of Irish words, while making sense to Irish speakers, is radically different to any European spelling system. Irish is one of very few European languages in which the differences between velarised and palatalised consonants and broad and slender vowels are extremely important (these don’t even exist in English or any of the Romance languages, but can be found in Russian).

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:39 PM

    Yes and Irish language has words not found in English translation , because they cannot be translated as they are cultural in nature.

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    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:42 PM

    Every language has words like that, Catherine. But in essence, Irish is still essentially a European language.

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    Mute Mindfulirish
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:50 AM

    Whoever formed the questions on our census did do with a sole purpose of deceiving people. It asked if you had a few words of Irish ? Now we have stats that say a large % of people have some Irish. Well I could say a lot of people have some Spanish , French , Italian , German etc. like Irish itself most use it to deceive. It costs in excess of 4 Billion a year which could be used for much better purposes like health and employment.

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    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:52 AM

    No, the census doesn’t ask if you have a few words of Irish. It asks a question in two parts. The first part asks if the respondent can speak Irish. The second part asks about the frequency. It’s designed to see how many people speak Irish and how often. (see here: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/images/question12.GIF) If the respondent then answers that they can speak Irish in the full knowledge that they can only say a couple of words then that is the fault of the respondent, not the census. The census also asks what other languages can be spoken by the respondent. I can have a basic conversation in Polish, but I’d never put that down on the form. Maybe what we should do is dumb down the census, because it appears people don’t seem to understand what speaking a language actually means.

    Personally, I’d like to have a census question on Irish that included ability, and whether the respondent can read, write, or listen to (or any combination of the above) Irish. I think the results would be very interesting, with possibly a large bulge in the reading and writing of Irish and a distinct thinning of numbers in the comprehension.

    As for it costing 4 billion..well that’s a 400% increase on last year then, when the combined total for all services, including teaching, related to Irish was 1 billion (and remember that even if Irish was scrapped, those teachers would still have to be paid which would eat substantially into that alleged 1 billion in savings).

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    Mute Jack Bowden
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:05 PM

    If you can hold a conversation in Polish then you can speak Polish.

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    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:14 PM

    I didn’t say I can hold a conversation in Polish. I said I can have a basic conversation, which means only on a few everyday topics (weather, shopping, where I live, etc.). I would never be able to talk about politics, history, geography, business, economics, science, etc. in Polish. Therefore I would say I can’t speak Polish. However, I can talk about those same topics in Irish, English, Manx and Russian, and as such would feel confident in saying I can speak those languages. I don’t think you have to be fluent in a language to be able to say you can speak it, but if your knowledge of a language dries up after 30 minutes then it’s safe to say you can’t speak it.

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    Mute Jack Bowden
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:59 PM

    I’m starting to get a man-crush on you Brian. Russian, Manx, Gaeilge and English. I’m impressed.

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    Mute KM
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:14 AM

    I think giving Irish too much of a cultural crutch with regards funding and incentives.

    A language is better off to live or die by its own merits and if it’s not being used in primary function as a tool of communication then it’s not going to grow organically

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    Mute Richard Day
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:48 AM

    If the money spent on translation services for State, semi state & private services (leaflets etc) were diverted to learning Irish in the first place im quite sure it would be spoken more often.

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    Mute Muireann Noonan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:49 AM

    When most Irish kids turn up at the European School in Luxembourg they’re put in a lower year because they’re way behind in languages. I think the reason is that we are on the periphery of Europe and are therefore not as exposed to languages. It takes very little time to get good at a language but you need immersion. Six months after moving to Luxembourg my daughter has caught up in French and German but this is the surprising bit, she learns Irish there too, three hours a week, and already she has excellent conversational Irish and is way ahead of her peers back in Dublin.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:00 AM

    you hit the nail on the head Muireann!

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:15 AM

    Dermot, following on from Muireann’s experience with her own children studying Irish in a different way than it is taught in Ireland, what do you think of an Applied Irish subject, where the vast majority of marks – say 80% – go for spoken Irish only?

    Muireann, can you provide more information on how your daughter is taught Irish? Conversational fluency is really the goal of teaching Irish, it’s great she can speak it!

    I would be fascinated to hear the success/failure rate of different approaches to teaching Irish.

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    Mute Muireann Noonan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:52 AM

    It’s a subject for her baccalaureate. She can opt to do either a written and oral exam or just an oral exam. I think it would be a huge improvement to have that system for the Leaving Cert.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:58 AM

    Applied Irish sounds good to me. Only thing is that “speaking” alone would hardly justify such high grades at honours level. Remember, children coming from Gaelscoileanna would get that 80% at age 12 or 13 without even doing the next 6 years of study. So that has to be figured out i guess….A Level Irish in the north mixes speaking and written much as we do – but because they only do 3 subjects to A Level (our leaving equivalent) its much more intense….

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:00 PM

    Very interesting Muireann – thanks for the reply.

    If the goal of irish language teaching Irish is speaking Irish, then we should have that option in the Leaving. Coupled with the ability to achieve a high number of points using almost entirely spoken Irish, it would be a huge boost to Irish.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:02 PM

    *If the goal of teaching Irish is speaking Irish

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    Mute Sean P
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:28 AM

    Why is there such a resistance to even try?
    Is it because English is such an easy language to learn and “all the world” speak English?
    Does that mean we are riding on the wave of convenience, created by colonialism????

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    Mute John Lally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:21 AM

    Was in the workmans in Dublin last Wednesday. Some German girl kept asking me to speak to her in Irish because I’m from the west or ‘Gaelic area’ as she was calling it. Never did I wish I did better in Irish at school until then.

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:13 AM

    Well carried out article. You managed to avoid the usual Pro-irish language traps of telling non-irish speaking folk that our “Irishness” is of less value or that all Irish culture resides in those of with the gaelic tongue. Well done.

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    Mute Conor Gallagher
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:27 AM

    The article is well written and balanced but the idea that all Irish speakers sneer at non-speakers is a myth (though there are a few). Irishness is no more dependent on speaking Irish as engaging in Irish dancing or singing seanos…However, there are a few on the other side, who come into every discussion with BS bingo of “dead language” “rammed down our throats” and who take pride, actual pride, in not speaking Irish and appear to despise those who do (though they wrap their prejudice up in broader concepts of modernity, multi-culturalism, education freedom of choice and saving taxpayers’ money – as if gaelgóirí were free to opt out of English/maths in school, are stuck in dark ages of a bye-gone age, are monophonic and do not pay taxes).

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:09 AM

    Conor, I think you are mostly correct. I would be guilty of some of that “lingo” particularly when goaded by gaelgóirí types. There are some good comments in this string which I think gets to the heart of the issue ….i.e. the teaching methodology. Irish should be taught like a modern european language with the emphysis on the spoken word an not on grammar and poetry. Read Conor Buggy’s personal story above to get a better understanding.

    As a complete aside…. I believe the emergency notices on Dublin Buses are dangerous as you have to read through a paragraph of Irish before you hit the english translation. In an emergency people dont have the time or inclination to read through the irish first…it has been proven that people in a panic read the first line or so and if they dont understand they will turn away thus missing vital information…..I dont believe this is a valid use of the Irish language in the real world.

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    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:00 AM

    I have to say, as an Irish speaker, that this idea that people must speak Irish to somehow be considered true Irish people is ridiculous. I know this concept does exist in some quarters, but that doesn’t make it any more valid. Wolfe Tone had barely a few words of Irish, yet there is no way we would not consider him Irish. As far as I know, Daniel O’Connell couldn’t speak Irish. Neither could Yeats, Emmet, Connolly, Burke, Markievicz, etc. All great Irish people and completely English-speaking. The attitude of some in the pro-Irish side does leave a lot to be desired; however, I find that it typically comes from those who have learned the language, rather than actual native speakers. Perhaps it’s a product of their environment. If they didn’t have the language, I’m sure they would find other ways to be obnoxious.

    As for the signage: if the Irish was in the same font, same size, etc. as the English, I think most Irish speakers would have no problem if the Irish came second, rather than first. We have to remember that English is the majority language as well as the only language native to Ireland that would be understood by foreigners either residing here or simply visiting.

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:16 PM

    Well said Brian… great comment

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    Mute Seán Ó Riain
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    Apr 8th 2014, 1:54 PM

    Daniel O’Connell was actually a native speaker of Irish, but he found English more useful in the English Parliament. However, Irish is reputed to have saved his life: when an enemy had arranged to poison him during a banquet, an Irish girl singing and playing the harp was able to warn O’Connell in Irish, leaving the poisoner none the wiser! Her song began

    “A Dhomhnaill Uí Chonaill, an dtuigeann tú Gaelainn?”, to which he replied:
    “Tuigim go maith, a chailín ó Éirinn.”

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    Mute Shane Diffily
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:43 PM

    The only constant in discussions of Irish is the vehemence of the hatred of it.
    The HATERS should remember, IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU!!

    “Boo hoo! Poor me :( I had a sh*tty Irish teacher in school.”

    “If I had a lovely teacher, I would love Irish and respect native Irish speaking children and give them the room to speak it in our society.”

    “But I didn’t. SO I don’t. Irish must DIE because I feel SAD :( ”

    I almost wish we could BAN Irish from schools, just to remove the pathetic excuse so many people use.

    The language exists outside the classroom.

    It exists today in the mouths of the several thousand & 5 year old children who speak it, but who will abandon it as they grow up because our society will not allow them room to speak it anywhere but at home.

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    Mute John Lawless
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:44 AM

    It really is that simple.

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    Mute Brian Bishop
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:40 AM

    None of the Irish school books we used had English in them. So there would be a story in Irish, with the questions in Irish, and the explanations about the story in Irish. The same with poetry. Actually, don’t even get me started on poetry…… we could barely put two sentences together, but were expected to enjoy or learn from the nuances of an Irish poetry:-) It was very difficult to learn that way.

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    Mute John Murphy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:53 AM

    When I go to France I go to a shop and someone might enquire about the weather, I can talk to them and get by.

    I’ve been to Irish speaking parts of the country before and not once has anyone said, “So, what about Clan Lir, eh?”

    The way Irish is taught is the problem.

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    Mute Jason O Neill
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:40 AM

    English is spoken all over the world. In other countries they all learn english as their second language which we already have and they all know how to speak their national language. Irish should be kept alive as it is our national language and anyone who thinks they are truly irish should know the language. My children attend an irish school and love it but the problem now will be they will have to travel to naas from portlaoise as there is no secondary school in the county of laois which is one of the problems for students not continuing there studies in irish.

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    Mute J
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:40 AM

    Your first 2 sentences are contradictory to the rest of your point. It’s precisely because our first language is English that we struggle with other languages because there is less of a need.

    The rest of your point is just the usual elitism that puts a lot of people off. I’m just as Irish as you thanks.

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    Mute Sarah Clifford
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:59 AM

    Please stop ramming the irish language down peoples throats. Some of us would like actually like the option of learning it.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:45 AM

    Sarah, would you say English and maths and religion and PE were “rammed” down our throats too?

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:40 PM

    Ramming down people’s throats?? Are you sure that was Irish class, Sarah??

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    Mute David Jordan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:03 PM

    I do consider Irish language hobbyists like yourself to have rammed your language down my throat, people like you campaigned to change which learning disorders are granted an exemption, as a result I was forced to learn a language that I had a recognized difficulty in learning to the detriment of my other subject not to mention making school much, much harder and down right unpleasant.
    You say your not playing the blame game but thats what you’re doing, blaming students, blaming people who decide after school, no, I don’t want to speak Irish, I’ll stick with my mother tongue and what ever other language I chose to learn.
    You know who’s responcible for the state of the Irish language, for the fact that many actually hate it and dislike its speakers or more truthfully preachers?
    Its the Irish speakers themselves, you’ve not brought people in, you’ve driven them away.
    And before you engage in some what-aboutery with other subjects, remember that I had to do all those subjects, everyone did, yet only Irish produces that level of resentment in people, why is that? Is it because every other subject either demonstrates its own value or contains an element of choice?
    The real reason Irish speakers shoot down the suggestion of making it a choice for modern European languages rather then a seperate mandatory subject is because you know that your lobby has managed to turns so many against it that the uptake would be pathetic.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 3:15 PM

    David, as the article points out, all English speaking nations have serious issues learning languages so to say the irish speakers alone drove young irish people away from learning irish is a pretty weak analysis of a very complicated problem that goes across many nations.
    For instance, if i said that it is the attitude of french speakers that has stopped English students (in the UK) from learning French it would sound ridiculous. Or that similarly the mexicans stopped the Americans learning spanish….
    But yes, clearly, whether intentionally or not, the Irish language movement has created enemies, yourself included and thats a pity. I cant respond to the issue of lobbyists and which language disorders are given exemptions from language learning. I would have imagined any decent department of education would need to base such decisions on sound evidence and proof, not hype from one lobby group or another.
    You say, “blaming people who decide after school, no, I don’t want to speak Irish,” ? I must be missing something here but nothing in the article says that we should be hunting down non-irish speakers and forcing them to lessons? I dont get your point here…

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    Mute Sarah Clifford
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    Apr 1st 2014, 6:05 PM

    I would say there is a need for the other subjects when you finish school but lets be quite honest here, how many people need it after the leaving cert?

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 7:32 PM

    Or Shakespeare, Sarah? Or the names of rock types, or the figures for how many Irishmen died in the Somme…?

    It’s called an education Sarah, and I hope someday you will regret never having had one.

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    Mute Proinsias Ó Foghlú
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:17 AM

    Good article by Dermot, I think he is right we concentrate to much on the technicalities of the language to the detriment of speaking it.

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    Mute Aisling Ní Chonaill
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 1:55 PM

    Lads, Peig Sayers hasn’t been a compulsory text on the Irish exam for years, don’t worry.

    There’s a level of bitterness towards learning Irish in school that you don’t get when talking about other subjects…I mean, I don’t hear half this amount of vitriol about Religion being a compulsory subject in many schools, and a lot of subjects are taught poorly (the poor spelling and grammar seen on Facebook and Internet comments would suggest that English is one of them), why does Irish get singled out? It’s just a language, it’s not Irish’s fault you had to learn a subject you didn’t like at school. A lot of kids hate Maths, but they don’t go writing angry tirades on the Internet about how Trigonometry ruined their childhoods and meant they were incapable of learning Literally Anything Else Ever.

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    Mute Mark O'Hagan
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:21 AM

    Stupidity is repeating the same behaviour and expecting different results. Irish has been taught the same way in schools since the foundation of the state with the end result that it gets left at the school gates once the Leaving Cert is over. One of the problems is that it is compulsory – thereby producing resentment at HAVING to learn Irish instead of WANTING to learn it. Another problem is that the education system gets very fixated on grammar and declensions – why not teach it as a conversational language first and the rest will follow.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:48 AM

    Mark – Europeans use similar language learning methodologies – but they get better results. The difference is I think, they WANT to learn it. They TRY harder. As i said below, maths, english, religion, pe are all compulsory as were a raft of other subjects up to Junior Cert….do we stop all compulsory subjects?

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    Mute Ross Casey
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    Apr 1st 2014, 12:48 PM

    Learning Irish is a ridiculous waste of time.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 1:41 PM

    Where’s Ross when you need him? Ah – there you are, my little ray of sunshine.

    As insightful as ever, I see.

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    Mute TheJeff
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:39 AM

    Teach it as a foreign language as to most people it is #Fact

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    Mute Seán Ó Riain
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    Apr 8th 2014, 1:39 PM

    “Gaelic” is short for “Scottish Gaelic” – when we mean Irish, we should say Irish. Irish is among the more difficult languageses to learn well, as the original article pointed out, but the attitude of the learner is all-important. Parents who pass negative attitudes to Irish to their children are needlessly creating difficulties for them.

    Those who feel that they are “no good at languages” should try Esperanto,a rich language with an original literature and an embryonic, pan-human, culture, but incredibly streamlined and easy to learn. The rapid and easy success in learning Esperanto (for free, try http://www.lernu.net), can break the monolingual barrier and convince people that they have far more talent for learning languages than they think. Then they can improve their Irish, French or any other language that interests them.

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    Mute Elizabeth Townsley
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:43 AM

    Hindsight is a great thing for this author, once old enough to choose has learned he language, well done, it doesn’t help the kids going through the 14 years right now.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:40 AM

    I dont think today’s kids have much to worry about – the new curriculum in primary schools is all about using and speaking the language. As regards teenagers – many will never want to learn irish and the complaints will always exist with this constituency…

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    Mute Cathal O'Donoghue
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:40 AM

    Dear god! Realism in relation to Irish! Well done. We’re still not going to start speaking it though.

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    Mute Floodzie
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:48 AM

    Not with that attitude! ;-)

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    Mute Ceann Eile
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    Apr 1st 2014, 5:33 PM

    It’s a question of language rights and equality . An Ghaedhilg is alive and spoken daily both in Ireland and abroad . It is however under huge pressure much of which is fuelled by the state not recognising the language rights of Gaedhilg speakers in Ireland . It makes sense to honour our pledges to our language. Fair play Cothrom na Féinne – Comhionannas Teangtha !! Sin an méid !!

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    Mute richardmccarthy
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    Apr 1st 2014, 10:40 AM

    Is it any wonder that English will always be Ireland’s first language,for the vast majority of people they are the first words they hear when they leave the mothers womb,the reason is simple,its a the universal language understood and used by a lot of the worlds population, even if like the USA there are big variations in the way its spoken,its quite easy to pick it up,unlike most European countries,as an emmigrant nation where countless millions had to leave the country ,for practical reasons its no surprise at all that English is the prefered way of communication,for most people sentimental longing for an ancient language is fine, just not in the modern world.

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    Mute Marko Burns
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    Apr 1st 2014, 2:10 PM

    The problem here is nationalism and language learning should never ever mix.

    I actually think there should be a class on Irish culture and traditions, especially folklore, craft etc., with a bit of gaelic thrown in, as this would do a far better job of re-enforcing our identity and encouraging debate on our future.

    However Gaelic should be separate and optional only and taught as a language only – no suicidal poetry or Peig misery.

    We are in serious danger of forgetting that it is in the English language that we have forged out our truly unique identity, both culturally and in spoken terms in the last 200 years. Including genuine linguistic innovation. There is no doubt around the world who the Irish are and how they both write and speak is unique, without anything to do with Gaelic at all. Yet we seem embarrassed to embrace this and instead yearn for some 17th Century peasant language? bizarre.

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    Mute Dermot McNally
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    Apr 1st 2014, 5:34 PM

    Marko – interesting points about the unique version of English we speak here … However I think linguists would argue that the sentence formation we use in English comes directly from how similar sentences were phrased in Irish, i.e., our style of English has EVERYTHING to do with our Gaelic origins and as the people moved from Irish to English, they took this sentence structure with them. But yes, I’m proud of our great Irish writers and we all should be!

    Regardless of this, its clear the English we use in Ireland is becoming more and more Americanised/Anglicised as time passes as our cultures are becoming homogenised. In truth we will be left with no Unique Selling Point in regard to our version of English any more than any other English speaking nation. As it stands Irish people abroad are often regularly mistaken for American/English/Scottish/Australian people, so even as it stands that “unique English” doesnt get us very far in that regard.

    The only community (and members) I have heard refer to Irish as a “peasant language” are those in the Unionist/Loyalist community in Northern Ireland who have no respect for the language and who only want to incite a negative reaction to vindicate their own personal prejudices. In fairness, there were huge elements of the Unionist community cut off in the Republic of Ireland after partition and for them, the Irish language has been and continues to be a great source of frustration for them. The other people who insult anything by calling it “peasant” are trolls.. ;)

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    Mute Seán Mag Leannáin
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 3:11 PM

    Alt spéisiúil. An interesting article.

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    Mute Jack Bowden
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    Apr 1st 2014, 3:33 PM

    I’d love to know the statistics on how kids with non Irish parents do in Irish compared to kids with one Irish parent and compared to kids with two Irish parents.
    If you go to school having never heard a single word ever been spoken anywhere then it would seem a bit distant and irrelevant to your life. Being able to ask to go to the toilet seems like the only relevant thing you need to know.

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    Mute Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:12 PM

    Jack,

    There’s some anecdotal evidence that children whose parents were born outside the state tend to do better at Irish after the age of 8. Part of the reason argued for this is due to their parents not have the a prejudice against the language as many Irish parents do.

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    Mute Jack Bowden
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:48 PM

    Wow. That’s the opposite of what I would have thought.

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    Mute Roisin
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:37 PM

    Personally, I am better at French than Irish. I think it’s because when you enter the secondary school system, Irish teachers assume you have the basics where as French is thought from scratch. For example, I learned the days of the week and months of the year in fifth year after my teacher copped half the class couldn’t write the date in Irish. I had my Irish oral yesterday. I had the dreaded sraith pictiúrs and the works, yet with French I only need general conversation. I think all languages should be treated the same across the secondary school curriculum. I also feel that Irish shouldn’t be compulsory after the junior cert. That way you only have students with an interest studying the subject. They should really examine the difference between ordinary and higher level papers. Like maths, they are two completely different exams. I do think if I had been able to afford the Gaeltacht my stance would be different. But what can you do?

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    Mute HarpoAV
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    Apr 1st 2014, 11:41 PM

    I think the fact that irish is taught in schools like it’s our native language is a big part of the problem why a lot of us still can’t speak it after ‘learning’ it for 12 years!! If irish was taught as a foreign language it would go a long way towards our comprehension and ability to speak it.
    My daughter is going to a galescoil now so I’ve been surprised at how much is coming back to me but when you have to ask a 6 yr old how to say something it’s not good !!

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    Mute Sonya Dempsey
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    Apr 1st 2014, 5:37 PM

    I myself studied both French and Irish throughout school and happened to continue on with French and also take up Spanish to take on a Modern Languages teaching degree. I regret that I cannot speak Irish at this stage and wish that I could but I can’t help wondering why I could have an aptitude for languages in general but somehow the glitch happened with Irish.

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    Mute Barry Creed
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    Apr 1st 2014, 9:56 AM

    If Sky Sports used it or Jamie Redknapp, they resonate with a certain type….

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    Mute R Neuville
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 2:40 PM

    LURO … way to go for a common second European Language.
    No daft stuff like genders for nouns and 15 different verb spellings for different tenses for the same action like French. English comes close to the spec (no genders) but has a few drawbacks such as non English speakers can’t pronounce “th” in “the”, “through” etc. LURO allows “de” for Corkonians or “ze” for the French instead of “th”. In fact LURO allows no definite article like “let’s go home”, let’s go pub, “put kettle on” …. like Coronation Street English. Polish has no definite article “the”.

    Adults must “learn” languages unlike kids who “pick it up” and strong word separation is key for easy adult learning. I run, I will run, I might run, I can run, I could run, I would run …. just one verb word “run” to learn LURO and just add a standard prefix for different tenses. English puts an “s” in ‘he runs” … a bit wierd .. ..another flaw in English language design.

    Irish is nice as a hobby but not a well designed efficient language which makes it difficult for adults to learn and so is unlikely to become a useful common method of communication.

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    Mute Cian O Criodain
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 1:26 PM

    Austrian isn’t a language

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    Mute Madge O' Boyle
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    Apr 3rd 2014, 5:16 PM

    The First group of teachers in Saorstát Eireann were dedicated to Irish culture and the language. My generation of 60s and 70s kids who became teachers were probably influenced by the new populist culture. Understandably, they needed a change from the crippling conservatism of 30s, 40s, 50s Ireland and its legacy. They wanted something ‘different ‘but they threw out the baby with the bathwater! An leanbh caite amach ar mhullach a chinn sa bhfolcadán! Now is time to reassess what Irish culture and language mean to us as a nation and to decide, once and for all, whether or not we are going to put in the effort to keep the language alive as the Gaelic Leaguers did in the 1890s, and succeeded in what they set out to do…to a great extent.

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    Mute dave mike dolan
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 12:28 AM

    Pure nonsense, I won’t let my kids learn that nonsense

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    Mute Aidan Smith
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    Apr 1st 2014, 8:19 PM

    How exactly is the Gaelscoil movement leading the way in developing fluency in Irish which will feed then into foreign language skills?

    Silly statement.

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    Mute RG Cuan
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    Apr 2nd 2014, 12:56 AM

    Aidan, all research illustrates that when somebody learns two languages at an early age (like in a Gaelscoil) their ability to learn a third, four, fifth language is greatly increased.

    So it’s not a ‘silly statement’ but a scientifically proven fact.

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    Mute Seán Carroll
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    Mar 18th 2015, 12:01 PM

    While I love the Irish language, the main organization that promote the language in Ireland, namely that of Conradh na Gaeilge do an absolutely atrocious job of promoting the language. We need a new organization and bring in a group of young enthusiastic members if things are to change. Until that happens, then nothing will happen.

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    Mute Niall Gordan
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    Mar 18th 2015, 3:13 PM

    Personally, I feel learning and using a language has little to do with the education system which demands a person achieve “outcomes” and “exam results” and other such nonsense! Yes, courses can be a step in the door – but YOU open that door to further treasures! I learned Scottish (Gaelic) when many said I couldn’t – and I didn’t cloud my future horizon with nonsense, tho I achieved some Scotvec passes and merits through my own efforts. These, however, are meaningless… and like French, doing an O level or something doesn’t make you a speaker. Go raibh míle maith agat.

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    Mute Declan O Leary
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    Apr 3rd 2014, 8:53 AM

    I can speak Irish fluently having studied it at university and made numerous trips to the Gaeltacht, but I don’t consider it my language and feel no shame admitting that. As a Dubliner, I come from a city which can boast some of the most acclaimed writers in the English language. It took me a long time as an English teacher abroad to recognize this and to have the confidence to challenge cultural terrorists from British cities who for some reason felt that their claim to ownership of our native language somehow outranked mine. We should stop shooting ourselves in the foot as a nation and have the confidence to stand up for who we really are and not allow ourselves to be talked down to by our own homegrown brand of cultural terrorist. Hiberno- English your day has still to come!

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